I put this in here, as I see it as a moral thing.
Not all Buddhists are vegetarian, and not all see the need to be, and that is fine. I have no problems with people eating whatever they want to eat, as long as it is legal!
So please no "oh you don't need to be vegetarian" or "you MUST be vegetarian" comments please.

I am a vegetarian. I became veggie when I was 6 for moral reasons, and I eventually realised those feelings and morals were in line with Buddhism, and I took refuge when I was around 13.
So I've been a veggie for 22 years now.
I'm a Kagyu Buddhist, and H.H Karmapa says that Kagyu Buddhists should be vegetarian if they can.
That's all fine.

However, I've started to have really, REALLY strong cravings for meat recently. It's so bad I even dream about eating meat and cooking up amazingly drool-worthy feasts of meat, and loving them.
It's making me feel really, really guilty.
I don't want to eat meat; I don't think it's fair on the animals because they don't get the choice. If a cow could turn round to me and tell me it was happy with the life it had had, and it was happy to be killed and for me to eat it, then fine, I'd be honoured to eat it. But they can't.

I know the first thing is to rule out any medical issues. I have just been in hospital, and had emergency surgery. They thought I had appendicitis and went in to remove my appendix, but it turned out my appendix was fine, and they found some deposits and nodules that they said means I probably have endometriosis.
This is a really, really bad thing because it seriously affects one of my other medical conditions which already has me in a wheelchair, but that's a whole different conversation.
So I know my health is bad at the moment; I'm recovering from surgery. But I started getting these cravings before the surgery anyway, and endometriosis wouldn't cause any issues with needing meat I don't think.
They did a lot of blood work when I was in hospital as I was feeling very dizzy and faint a lot, so they checked to see if I was anemic as I'd bled a LOT in the week up to going into hospital, but they said my blood work was all fine, so I'm not anemic. It's not that simple.
It's also not as simple as having just turned veggie and craving what you miss.
I've been veggie for 22 years... so my body / brain can't just be missing what I had recently.

Now I have a lot of medical conditions, and I'm part worried that it's not wise to be a vegetarian since I'm so ill.
I know it is perfectly possible to get every bit of nutrition the body needs from a vegetarian diet, so that's not a problem, but my body has odd nutritional needs. I go through protein cravings every now and then and find myself eating a lot of quorn (a mycoprotein that's made up to be like meat - fake meat kind of thing, it's not soya or gluten, but is similar in that they make 'chicken' pieces, etc. It's in the UK so I don't know if non-UK based people will know about it).
I can't eat lots of grains or legumes to get my protein when I have those cravings though. It HAS to be the quorn - the closest thing I can find to meat. So I guess I've had this problem before, it's just really, really strong now, and I'm craving meat specifically, and dreaming about it.
I have bowel issues so I have foods I can't have, and I seem to need weird things. Eating a balanced diet doesn't really work - I end up needing lots of one thing or another, so I kind of lurch between things a lot. It's all cravings, and I've been listening to my body and going with them because I thought my body was needing those things. But why would it NEED meat?
I can get protein, iron, B vitamins from other sources. Everything I find in meat I can get elsewhere, and without the cholesterol.

So I've started to wonder if it's a trick of samsara, trying to test me, make me give up my principles.
It's hard; it's on my mind 24/7, I've tried everything; reading H.H Karmapa's words about vegetarianism, reading other leading Tibetan Lamas words about vegetarianism for inspiration.
I've taken the Bodhisattva vow which means I can't eat meat, even if H.H Karmapa hadn't said it, so I reinforce that to myself.
I don't understand why I have these cravings now.

I've read recently that doctors have reccomended to people with my main medical condition, not to be vegetarians, but I'm skeptical about that. I will be talking about this with my gp, and I might ask him to write to my consultant in London (I have to go to London to see a specialist because my condition is rare), to find out diet reccomendations for my condition because I've never asked before, and I know I need more of certain things, like calcium and possibly magnesium and vitamin K.
If a doctor told me I had to eat meat, that wouldn't be a problem; Buddhism is full of 'rules', but they're more guidelines, and health is one thing that is to come first and I've always been told that ill people are exempt from fasting, and other rules that may affect them, so it would not cause me a crisis of faith if I was told specifically to eat meat, and I would say prayers for each meal and thank the animals it came from. So that would be ok, but I'd rather not revert to meat eating unless I absolutely have to.

I don't really know what I'm asking here... has anyone else had problems like this? Was it a samsaric bump to get over? How did you get past it?

Djon Ma

Nicola

Dear Nicola,

Most people who have craving for meat are not getting enough protein or high quality protein, just that simple.

I suggest counting up how much protein you get each day. You may be surprised at how much you actually have to eat to get what you need, and to get the carb/protein ratio in a good range while being vegetarian takes some work.

You can compute your baseline protein requirement by searching for daily protein requirement on google and using one of the calculators that comes up. Remember that this is for high quality protein equivalents, which takes some planning on a vegetarian diet and knowing the complementary proteins.

I was vegetarian for about 8 years and found that if I ate less than about 1 pound of tofu/day along with some cheese and eggs that I would really crave meat, but I was also biking 7-14 miles/day in hilly terrain.

That's more of a medical perspective than a Buddhist one, as the Buddhists are all over the place on this one, as on many other things.

I am not enlightened, but perhaps the following might be helpful.

1. Meditate/be aware of the foulness of the body. How food is chewed up into ugly cud, mixed with saliva. Consider this when you eat, how it passes through your gut, how it transforms. How the nutrients then turn into your own flesh, blood. The best time to do this is when you eat. It is pretty disgusting, really but I find that it gives life a mission, one beyond hedonism. If you can follow this up with mindfulness in the toilet, then that is even better. Your beautiful meal has been turned into foul-smelling faeces. Sometimes, I might even catch myself holding my breath. This is an example of refusing to accept reality.

2. Meditate on the Noble Truth of Suffering. How brave it is for the Buddha to proclaim that life is suffering. See how heavy the burden of craving is. Look at the suffering from desire for health and self-preservation and how that conflicts with desire not to harm. Try to note the craving when it creeps up, see how it becomes heavy to carry. When it becomes hard to bear, you should smile at it.

Metta.

Daniel, thanks for the response. It's nice to see someone consider the medical aspects.
I think I'm probably not getting enough protein to be honest; I tend to eat fairly badly as a result of having a lot of difficulty cooking because of my physical condition. I know I've not been eating well recently as I've been getting very sick when eating because of the medication and having been ill as well, so that's probably what the current issue is. I'm going to sit down and work out all the nutrients I should be getting and then work out what I am getting, and see how they balance up, and see if I can work out a few weeks of meal plans to get me going towards eating better.

Eating properly is a massive thing, and it can't be helping my health if I'm not eating right. It's just difficult with not being able to cook too well, or all the time. The problem is my condition varies so much, so I could be ok to cook and eat one day, but then stuck in bed the next, which makes keeping a schedule, even one as simple as eating 3 square meals a day, quite difficult!

I think the healing process I'm in at the moment after surgery is probably demanding a lot more protein than I'd usually need as well, which will be contributing to the cravings I think. It's pretty bad that after 22 years of vegetarianism I'm still really bad at this. At least I don't have to worry about biking a lot, or intensive exercise to need more protein!

Thanks again, I'll definitely get my diet sorted out properly, and see if it helps my health out as well.

Ratanajothi, thanks for those meditations, they're wonderful! I need to start meditating again properly, and I'm going to use those when eating and when craving, it seems like it will be a good way to get back into meditating again as well as helping my problems!

Thanks to you both!

Nicola

Djon Ma

Here are a few ideas to consider about Vegetarianism, Kammic Effects and the human body types.
I often think that It would be nice if people in general would do more research and maybe take note of the reply that was made to Ven. Jivaka by the Buddha. Ven. Jjivaka was the physician who traveled with the Buddha.
Have you ever considered, wouldn’t it be nice if vegetarians were vegetarians because that was best for their bodies and meat eaters were meat eaters because it was best for them? Then there could be kinder words and FAR less accusations thrown around in this world perhaps other than discussions concerning health issues.
There is really no question that some meat eaters would live better by eating vegetables BUT on the other side, there are vegetarians who don’t feed their bodies properly either. Really, both have good and bad issues to consider and also the fact that our food chain is not what it once was quality wise concerning the vitamins within our foods that are grown. AND when you begin to travel, I dare say, one could not tell some countries they could not eat meat, OR, others that they could not eat vegetables! The opposite may not even be possible.
It would also be good if maybe we stopped hanging bad Karma onto meat eaters, or feeling this kind of guilt or others by making assumptions and through transposing information based on assumption without understanding what really went on concerning this issue in the Buddha’s time. Much of the vegetarianism within present traditions was left over from previous religions or added in later on.
Seems like that would make things more peaceful in this world, don’t ya think? It is no secret how the Buddha’s teachings have been undercut over the centuries by various groups pushing in with their own agendas and we should not pretend this doesn’t’ exist…. essentially it is there.
Let’s consider this very interesting information:
-----
The Buddha dispensed the Jivaka Sutta (MN-55) when Jivaka questioned him on the controversial questions of the Kammic effects of eating meat . The Buddha explained that the eating of meat was not in itself an unwholesome act if the following conditions were met.

Pali words concerned here:
Adittha - One has not seen the slaughtering of the animal;
Asuta- One has not heard that it is killed for his or her consumption or heard the being crying as it is being killed;
Apavisamkita - there should be no doubt at all in one’s mind of the person consuming the meat that the animal was not killed with you in mind.

The Buddha said:
“ Taking life, beating, cutting, binding, stealing, lying, fraud, deceit, pretence of knowledge, adultery, this is un-cleanliness, not the eating of flesh.
“When men are rough and harsh, backbiting, treacherous, without compassion, haughty, ungenerous, and they do not give anything to anybody; this is un-cleanliness, not the eating of flesh.
“ Anger, pride, obstinancy, antagonism, hypocracy, envy, ostentation, pride of opinion, interacting with the unrighteous; this is un-cleanliness, not the eating of flesh.
“When men are of bad morals, refuse to pay their debts, are slanderers, deceitful in their dealings, pretenders, when the vilest of men commit foul deeds; this is un-cleanliness, not the eating of flesh
When men attack living beings either because of greed or hostility and are always bent upon evil, they go to darkness after death and fall headlong into hell; This is un-cleanliness, not the eating of flesh.
“Jivaka, I have declared that one should not make use of meat if it has been seen, heard, or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. I allow the monks meat that is quite pure in these three respects; if it has not been seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk.---
The Amagandha Sutta- Anguttara Nikaya

This was presented to a council and explained by most Ven. Vimalaramsi Mahathera
using the translation material of Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi when it was discussed.

So before feeling guilty about this, go and have your body examined for body type conerning food first. Then consider this material and add meat in if necessary in sparse quantities to see if there can be majjor improvements in your health. Your body telling you about these urges may be a very lucky sign that you should pay attention to now before major damage occurs.
Metta
Sister Khema

ive been vegetarian for about 6 weeks, but the first 3 weeks with eggs.
now without eggs, its been a struggle. i feel i have less energy.
i think vegetarian + eggwhites works best for me.

i also do sports

To the Original Post,

Sorry to hear you struggling to maintain your vegetarianism. I have just been vege since December and haven't had any cravings since the first month. I was taking a lot of whey protein. Now that I cut out dairy and eggs (just givin it a try) I take a lot of lentils... I hope you can work something out. Perhaps on the days you feel good cook up meals for a few days? I don't think its necessarily bad to eat meat... but some people like us do have the conviction to give it up... so I wish you the best on your journey... (ow and be sure to hit that mediation cushion it is the most important part of our practice)

Clayton

Dear Nicola,

I've been a raw vegan since June 2002 and I now A LOT of people who are eating mostly fruit and some greens and are extremely health, running marathons, looking great e.t.c.

I highly recommend you to listen to World Peace Diet by Will Tuttle. Outstanding book. I would love to attach the mp3s here but they are too big. Will Tuttle allowed me to download them for free as a promotion.
It discusses physiological aspects of vegetarianism vs. meat eating and also modern practices of production meat at factory farms.
The web-site is www.theworldpeacediet.org

Surgery and medical treatments can really put demands on your body - so part of your craving may be an honest need by your body for more protein, iron and other things commonly found in meat. As some others suggested you can make an extra effort to eat lots of good protein and vegetables, and see if that helps the craving fade.

Another thought, perhaps there is also a symbolic element? Meat is dead flesh, pieces of tissue, the stuff your body is made of. You have just had your body cut up in surgery. Perhaps you are thinking of meat because in your recent medical procedures you were a little bit like a piece of meat. A sort of unpleasant thought, but maybe something like that is floating in your unconscious mind.

Feel better!