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T's Sporadic Practice Log T 4/23/20 6:11 AM
RE: T Chris Marti 4/23/20 6:03 AM
RE: T Tim Farrington 4/23/20 6:11 AM
RE: T T 4/23/20 6:13 AM
RE: T Tim Farrington 4/23/20 6:27 AM
RE: T T 4/23/20 6:14 AM
RE: T Chris Marti 4/23/20 6:27 AM
RE: T Tim Farrington 4/23/20 6:31 AM
RE: T Tim Farrington 4/23/20 6:10 AM
RE: T Not two, not one 4/23/20 6:12 AM
RE: T Tim Farrington 4/23/20 6:21 AM
RE: T Chris Marti 4/23/20 6:26 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 4/28/20 1:50 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 4/28/20 6:10 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 4/28/20 6:14 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 4/28/20 7:15 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 4/28/20 8:32 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 4/28/20 9:22 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 4/28/20 9:58 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 4/28/20 1:20 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 4/29/20 8:55 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 4/30/20 4:38 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 4/30/20 3:45 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/4/20 2:29 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/4/20 6:35 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/4/20 6:58 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/4/20 10:39 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Not two, not one 5/4/20 5:07 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/4/20 5:14 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Chris Marti 5/5/20 6:27 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/5/20 6:50 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Chris Marti 5/5/20 6:55 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/5/20 7:08 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Chris Marti 5/5/20 7:13 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/5/20 7:40 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Chris Marti 5/5/20 8:07 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/5/20 8:46 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/5/20 10:16 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/6/20 6:43 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/6/20 7:43 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/7/20 5:00 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/7/20 5:14 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/7/20 10:42 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Siavash 5/7/20 11:28 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/7/20 6:25 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/7/20 8:02 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/8/20 7:04 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Siavash 5/8/20 7:17 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/8/20 7:28 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/8/20 2:43 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/9/20 6:58 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/9/20 9:47 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log agnostic 5/9/20 5:08 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/10/20 12:48 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/10/20 6:47 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/30/20 3:04 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 6/12/20 7:26 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 6/12/20 10:56 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 6/12/20 11:02 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 6/12/20 11:03 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 7/23/20 8:03 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 7/25/20 5:31 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 7/26/20 5:31 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 7/27/20 7:37 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Chris Marti 7/28/20 9:12 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 7/28/20 11:52 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Chris Marti 7/28/20 12:49 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 7/29/20 12:38 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 7/28/20 1:50 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Martin 7/29/20 12:50 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 7/29/20 6:11 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 7/30/20 4:18 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Tim Farrington 5/9/20 12:56 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 1:31 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/6/20 8:10 AM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log John W 5/7/20 2:57 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log T 5/7/20 6:36 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log John W 5/7/20 7:35 PM
RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/5/20 7:44 AM
T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/23/20 6:11 AM
Hit the wrong buttons the first time around. 


I continue to sit, though "studying" has been far less driven. I ordered a couple books that I think will be very interesting, but I've slowed down the intellectual digestion quite a lot. I've also limited my sit time to the WHM exercises (probably results in 15 minutes of sitting) and the evening sit while my wife does some body scan from an app (30 minutes). The first sit consists of just intently waiting for a nimitta - sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't, but I'm always zoned right in and paying attention. I assume this is useful for concentration. The second sit was noting and it was interesting, but for whatever reason I'm just not doing it. The breath has been my thing for so long, I just end up playing with it. It works, I get quite concentrated and deep. It's very different than the noting. Anyway. 

Last night, I woke up at some point. As I laid there on my side, eyes closed, I noticed the "stroboscope" that Wim Hof talks about. I don't know if it's a nimitta, exactly, but I now get what he's talking about. In this case, it was like going through a circular corridor backward, and the hall was lined with lights every so often. So, a white halo would come from "behind" me and move outward toward the front, converging in a circle and getting smaller - then another one, then another one, etc. It was very interesting and I figured it was as good a time to meditate as any, so I focused on it. 

Then, I realized that I became detached entirely from it. That's not to say that the visual appearance changed - it didn't, at all. However, there was suddenly the feeling of the lower lungs and abdomen taking in air and pushing it out, but it was absolutely most definitely happening entirely on its own. I don't mean to say I wasn't aware of that, but this was the most obvious "I'm not doing anything" that I've ever felt. The visual field was utterly and completely separated from anything, and so was the breathing. There was no body, exactly. It was the breathing appratus, which felt as if it were just floating somewhere in the void, and the visual activity. There was no me, and there was no body in the normal sense. 

There were thoughts coming through about how it was kind of surreal, wondering if this is what it felt like physically to be truly agencyless, "don't panic, this is actually comfortable," just relax... those types of thoughts. However, even those weren't really happening to me. There was no relationship in which a me would be other than sort of... the void aware of all these things happening. 

Then I fell asleep. 

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:03 AM as a reply to T.
?

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:10 AM as a reply to T.
T:
T


WTF?

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
?


it's a koan, you *

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:12 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
T:
T


WTF?

Maybe he is trying to say Not-T?

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:13 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
?
The being formerly known as T. is slowly disappearing and now known only as T










In actuality, I had some kind of hand spasm which hit three or so buttons and published a post without anything aside from "T"

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:14 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
?


P.S. - Chris Marti, DhO Moderator, I don't know how to fix it. 

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:21 AM as a reply to Not two, not one.
Not two, not one:
Tim Farrington:
T:
T


WTF?

Maybe he is trying to say Not-T?
or maybe T B, or not-T B? That is the question.

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:26 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
There's a vaccine for that.

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:27 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Chris Marti:
?
The being formerly known as T. is slowly disappearing and now known only as T









shut the fuck up, man, you hit gold here!
The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"
Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell trans.. 17


Retire when the work is done, you *!

In actuality, I had some kind of hand spasm which hit three or so buttons and published a post without anything aside from "T"


That is called a kriya. It is effortless action-in-non-action, a doing without a doer.

Start charging for every word you speak from here on in. I already represent Roger the Dodger, aka, "The One." So you, the entity formerly know as T, can have his same great deal, for a mere 15% to your agent, since you presently appear to be agent-less.

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:27 AM as a reply to T.
I don't know how to fix it. 

What's to fix?

RE: T
Answer
4/23/20 6:31 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I don't know how to fix it. 

What's to fix?


There is neither fixer nor fix, nor anything to fix. Sri Marti-Roshi is correct here, technically speaking. "And not i, but Chris in me," is how the Christian tradition would put it.

T, we can get rich off this shit if you play your cards right and do nothing whatsoever.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 1:50 AM as a reply to T.
T's, how's them sits?

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 6:10 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
T's, how's them sits?
Hey Tim!

Going fine, thanks. Still doing the WHM exercises and such followed by maybe 15 minute-sits; they are primarily simple awareness of watching and waiting for a nimitta-like-object to appear. It's slightly unusual in that I find my mind doesn't wander as much as I'd expect doing it that way. Sometimes, like today, I have weird flashes of things go through in the form of images. Actually, writing this out just now helped me realize what the last one was. I had a dramatic image of an arrow shooting through me and then whatever image was in the mind went blood red. I just let it pass and didn't give it thought - well, now I'm realizing it was just throwing up a mish mash of some war movies I recently watched - the end of Fury has the sort of thing I'm talking about. 

In the evening I do 30-45 minutes of breath watching. Lately, this has been leading to what seems to be more noticeably  one or two black outs (I'm loath to use the ever-controversial C-word). Normally they involve whooshing movement forward and down. Last evening, I had one that went kind of around in a sort of circle. It was noticeably different from how it normally feels right before. Right after, it's a hard reset. I'm mentally like "oh, hi. Welcome back. It's lovely and soothing here.Be at ease, bro." Often, that's followed by "wait, was that a...nah. well, if it was, I want to review it." Then, I'll go back to sitting and breathing and doing nada... and sometimes it happens again. 

I'm not really learning anything noticeable from it, so maybe I just have sleep apnea. :-P

That said, I've been wondering about the cosmic joke. The joke itself is easy enough to grok - it's very straightfoward and obvious and takes no amount of meditating to at least look at once (whether you like it or don't and can accept it or not). 

So I'm wondering if the cosmic joke and accepting it is entirely separate from simply building skill at meditating. Do you know what I mean?

Like - a person can be enlightened simply because they get the joke and accept life as it is, without adding any suffering to it. Done. Awesome. Nothing to BE done, there. 

Conversely, there are many, many things that can be done in meditation/contemplative practice that allow all kinds of experiences to come up that are fascinating, informative, and fun... but they don't really have to do with accepting the joke. They can make it easier, possibly, to fully accept, but the two are mutuall exclusive. 

Anyway, that's how I feel about it today. 

We'll see about tomorrow, if it ever comes. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 6:14 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Tim Farrington:
T's, how's them sits?

That said, I've been wondering about the cosmic joke. The joke itself is easy enough to grok - it's very straightfoward and obvious and takes no amount of meditating to at least look at once (whether you like it or don't and can accept it or not). 

So I'm wondering if the cosmic joke and accepting it is entirely separate from simply building skill at meditating. Do you know what I mean?

Like - a person can be enlightened simply because they get the joke and accept life as it is, without adding any suffering to it. Done. Awesome. Nothing to BE done, there. 

Conversely, there are many, many things that can be done in meditation/contemplative practice that allow all kinds of experiences to come up that are fascinating, informative, and fun... but they don't really have to do with accepting the joke. They can make it easier, possibly, to fully accept, but the two are mutuall exclusive. 

Anyway, that's how I feel about it today. 

We'll see about tomorrow, if it ever comes. 
I think the key to the Cosmic Joke is, if you get it, IT IS FUNNY.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 7:15 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
T:
Tim Farrington:
T's, how's them sits?

That said, I've been wondering about the cosmic joke. The joke itself is easy enough to grok - it's very straightfoward and obvious and takes no amount of meditating to at least look at once (whether you like it or don't and can accept it or not). 

So I'm wondering if the cosmic joke and accepting it is entirely separate from simply building skill at meditating. Do you know what I mean?

Like - a person can be enlightened simply because they get the joke and accept life as it is, without adding any suffering to it. Done. Awesome. Nothing to BE done, there. 

Conversely, there are many, many things that can be done in meditation/contemplative practice that allow all kinds of experiences to come up that are fascinating, informative, and fun... but they don't really have to do with accepting the joke. They can make it easier, possibly, to fully accept, but the two are mutuall exclusive. 

Anyway, that's how I feel about it today. 

We'll see about tomorrow, if it ever comes. 
I think the key to the Cosmic Joke is, if you get it, IT IS FUNNY.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is a difference between getting it and finding it funny, getting it and saying "duh," and getting it and denying it's true; and suffering like a motherfucker. It's staring every human being right in the face every moment of their lives (aside from deep sleep). 

Most people, as adults, start at the end and work their way backward.

Everyone gets that life can really fucking suck from time to time, but they fight the leather straps trying to chew their way out; they are most definitely aware that, no matter how hard they work and plan - shit just happens and it is often enough not in their favor for them to deeply get it, but deny it. They suffer, but they believe they persevere and fight on. At some point, something happens where it's crippling from their perspective and the suffering knows no bottom - death of someone very dear, loss of marriage, relationship missteps leading to serious problems, the hells of substance addiction, etc. etc. - and they somewhat give up and decide there must be something better...somewhere. So, they start doing what they do - praying, meditating, yoga, whatever. 

See - they get the joke. Everyone is aware of the joke - they just don't see it for what it is. So, after some of this searching, they change their perspective on the joke and say, "duh. It's been that way all along, but I kept pretending it wasn't." This can take various forms, right? Like... "it is what it is" as a motto, or "it's in God's hands," or... I don't know. You get the idea. They understand that there's little that can be done aside from accept. 

Then time goes by with their new perspective on "duh" as things settle and life becomes "easier" and they work their way into "that shit is actually funny. Can you believe...? Wow. This is it and it always has been." They simply let go of anything controlling it and just "let 'er rip!"

Total acceptance is freedom. Total acceptance is finding the joke funny. I think the preferred term, now that I've written that out is "radical acceptance." 

I'm not sure that one has to meditate to achieve that at all. This is something a person can be talked to about, with enough examples, for it to make sense. 

That isn't to say that meditation isn't important and useful. It can definitely do nifty things in the brain - I just contend that it's unnecessary to finally accept. Perhaps it makes some of the deep acceptance easier...? I don't know. Sometimes I'm very accepting and sometimes not - which makes sense because I've been meditating a relatively short time, yet understood (yet fought) the joke for many, many years. I do think this is different from being aware of all things arising and vanishing, being aware of the various cycles in awareness, being aware that there's no "doer" present in reality and seeing it directly, etc. etc. 

I just don't think that those things are required to radically accept what's true - drum roll, please - and be enlightened. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 8:32 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Tim Farrington:
T:
Tim Farrington:
T's, how's them sits?

That said, I've been wondering about the cosmic joke. The joke itself is easy enough to grok - it's very straightfoward and obvious and takes no amount of meditating to at least look at once (whether you like it or don't and can accept it or not). 

So I'm wondering if the cosmic joke and accepting it is entirely separate from simply building skill at meditating. Do you know what I mean?

Like - a person can be enlightened simply because they get the joke and accept life as it is, without adding any suffering to it. Done. Awesome. Nothing to BE done, there. 

Conversely, there are many, many things that can be done in meditation/contemplative practice that allow all kinds of experiences to come up that are fascinating, informative, and fun... but they don't really have to do with accepting the joke. They can make it easier, possibly, to fully accept, but the two are mutuall exclusive. 

Anyway, that's how I feel about it today. 

We'll see about tomorrow, if it ever comes. 
I think the key to the Cosmic Joke is, if you get it, IT IS FUNNY.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is a difference between getting it and finding it funny, getting it and saying "duh," and getting it and denying it's true; and suffering like a motherfucker. It's staring every human being right in the face every moment of their lives (aside from deep sleep). 

Most people, as adults, start at the end and work their way backward.

Everyone gets that life can really fucking suck from time to time, but they fight the leather straps trying to chew their way out; they are most definitely aware that, no matter how hard they work and plan - shit just happens and it is often enough not in their favor for them to deeply get it, but deny it. They suffer, but they believe they persevere and fight on. At some point, something happens where it's crippling from their perspective and the suffering knows no bottom - death of someone very dear, loss of marriage, relationship missteps leading to serious problems, the hells of substance addiction, etc. etc. - and they somewhat give up and decide there must be something better...somewhere. So, they start doing what they do - praying, meditating, yoga, whatever. 

See - they get the joke. Everyone is aware of the joke - they just don't see it for what it is. So, after some of this searching, they change their perspective on the joke and say, "duh. It's been that way all along, but I kept pretending it wasn't." This can take various forms, right? Like... "it is what it is" as a motto, or "it's in God's hands," or... I don't know. You get the idea. They understand that there's little that can be done aside from accept. 

Then time goes by with their new perspective on "duh" as things settle and life becomes "easier" and they work their way into "that shit is actually funny. Can you believe...? Wow. This is it and it always has been." They simply let go of anything controlling it and just "let 'er rip!"

Total acceptance is freedom. Total acceptance is finding the joke funny. I think the preferred term, now that I've written that out is "radical acceptance." 

I'm not sure that one has to meditate to achieve that at all. This is something a person can be talked to about, with enough examples, for it to make sense. 

That isn't to say that meditation isn't important and useful. It can definitely do nifty things in the brain - I just contend that it's unnecessary to finally accept. Perhaps it makes some of the deep acceptance easier...? I don't know. Sometimes I'm very accepting and sometimes not - which makes sense because I've been meditating a relatively short time, yet understood (yet fought) the joke for many, many years. I do think this is different from being aware of all things arising and vanishing, being aware of the various cycles in awareness, being aware that there's no "doer" present in reality and seeing it directly, etc. etc. 

I just don't think that those things are required to radically accept what's true - drum roll, please - and be enlightened. 

[drum roll sound, and ba-boom.]

Then time goes by with their new perspective on "duh" as things settle and life becomes "easier" and they work their way into "that shit is actually funny. Can you believe...? Wow. This is it and it always has been." They simply let go of anything controlling it and just "let 'er rip!"

Total acceptance is freedom. Total acceptance is finding the joke funny. I think the preferred term, now that I've written that out is "radical acceptance." 


love, tim

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 9:22 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
This means that meditating can simply be for the sake of meditating and seeing what happens.

Interesting things will happen - but the joke is the joke; it's only my relationship to it that changes, and that's not a direct result of meditating. It's the result of accepting/letting go. 

NOW - that said - my meditating has some cool side effects! My vision is still hyper 3-D much of the time. Particularly outside. I still don't get accomplishing that through the other senses, but I'm assured it's possible. That's exciting - I shall continue sitting!

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 9:58 AM as a reply to T.
T:
This means that meditating can simply be for the sake of meditating and seeing what happens.

Interesting things will happen - but the joke is the joke; it's only my relationship to it that changes, and that's not a direct result of meditating. It's the result of accepting/letting go. 

NOW - that said - my meditating has some cool side effects! My vision is still hyper 3-D much of the time. Particularly outside. I still don't get accomplishing that through the other senses, but I'm assured it's possible. That's exciting - I shall continue sitting!

i meditate out of compassion for all beings: that seven minutes and twenty-five seconds somebody doesn't have to listen to me sing.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/28/20 1:20 PM as a reply to T.
Hi T!

Just a few random thoughts here ...

I had a dramatic image of an arrow shooting through me and then whatever image was in the mind went blood red. I just let it pass and didn't give it thought - well, now I'm realizing it was just throwing up a mish mash of some war movies I recently watched - the end of Fury has the sort of thing I'm talking about. 

Could have been Fury or could have been transverberation.

So I'm wondering if the cosmic joke and accepting it is entirely separate from simply building skill at meditating. Do you know what I mean?

Yes only advanced meditators believe you need to be an advanced meditator to get the joke!

Like - a person can be enlightened simply because they get the joke and accept life as it is, without adding any suffering to it. Done. Awesome. Nothing to BE done, there. 

No no no! No person is enlightened, no one gets the joke, it just is (whether you think you accept it or not). There's nothing to be done, but there's also nothing NOT to be done (actions still have the usual consequences though).

Conversely, there are many, many things that can be done in meditation/contemplative practice that allow all kinds of experiences to come up that are fascinating, informative, and fun... but they don't really have to do with accepting the joke.

Yes meditation just gives us interesting experiences to talk about and metrics to rank people. The most interesting experiences apparently (cessations) are not even experiences. That's also a joke, probably the same one.

They can make it easier, possibly, to fully accept, but the two are mutuall exclusive. 

You can't accept the joke. The joke and you are mutually exclusive. But yeah, meditation makes the prison more comfortable.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is a difference between getting it and finding it funny, getting it and saying "duh," and getting it and denying it's true; and suffering like a motherfucker. It's staring every human being right in the face every moment of their lives (aside from deep sleep).

Yes everyone has different reactions to the joke apparently. But that doesn't change the joke.

I'm not sure that one has to meditate to achieve that at all. This is something a person can be talked to about, with enough examples, for it to make sense. 

I think that's right, but meditators tend to make more noise about it because they have so much more invested. And the joke doesn't make sense ok!

I just don't think that those things are required to radically accept what's true - drum roll, please - and be enlightened. 

I assume that you are joking here, but just to make sure - you are not enlightened because you think you got the joke, ok?!!!

This means that meditating can simply be for the sake of meditating and seeing what happens.

Yes meditating is just what appears to be happening.

Interesting things will happen - but the joke is the joke; it's only my relationship to it that changes, and that's not a direct result of meditating. It's the result of accepting/letting go.

Yes but it's not you that is accepting the joke. The feeling of you accepting/letting go is just the apparent you disapearing (I say apparent you because there never really was a real you).

NOW - that said - my meditating has some cool side effects! My vision is still hyper 3-D much of the time. Particularly outside. I still don't get accomplishing that through the other senses, but I'm assured it's possible. That's exciting - I shall continue sitting!

Looking forward to more cool visuals!

By the way, please feel free to come over to my log any time you like and rudely dissect my work in public!

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/29/20 8:55 AM as a reply to agnostic.
agnostic:

I just don't think that those things are required to radically accept what's true - drum roll, please - and be enlightened. 

I assume that you are joking here, but just to make sure - you are not enlightened because you think you got the joke, ok?!!!

By the way, please feel free to come over to my log any time you like and rudely dissect my work in public!
Hey agnostic, 

It doesn't feel rude. We're not in the same places, I imagine. For one, you're not there at all. :-P

Indeed, I was joking. I claim nothing. In fact, in my other log I sort of dismiss the idea in my old log. I'm contesting the idea that being enlightened is a thing - as opposed to something else. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/30/20 4:38 AM as a reply to agnostic.
agnostic - 

You have mentioned a few times that "meditation is what appears to happen" which is generally in reference to someone saying they meditate. I'm curious how you mean this. 

It's always in reference to meditation - never... pooping, for example. Would one say "pooping appears to happen"? Or is this specific to mental activity?

More in line with say... "sleeping appears to happen" or perhaps "deciding appears to happen"

You're not the only one who has made this distinction, by the way; just the only one I feel like hearing and answer from. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
4/30/20 3:45 PM as a reply to T.
Hi T - shooting for < 1000 characters here!

I think it’s correct (if annoying) to use the qualifier appears to happen for everything, because the idea of an event happening is a projection of the mind. For events to happen you need a concept of time, which is a creation of the mind. Cessations prove that time can stop from a phenomenological perspective (nibbana is timeless). Physics above the quantum scale is deterministic (and quantum indeterminacy doesn’t really affect the world we experience apart from in contrived experiments). This means that given the initial conditions, everything has basically “already happened”. It only appears to us that things are happening because we have a limited viewpoint from within the illusory flow of time. Nonduality means that viewpoint is an illusion, hence things only appear to happen from the illusory perspective of a dualistic subject. In the nondual/nibbanic reality, nothing is happening at all!

Cheers
agnostic

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/4/20 2:29 AM as a reply to agnostic.
agnostic:
Hi T - shooting for < 1000 characters here!

I think it’s correct (if annoying) to use the qualifier appears to happen for everything, because the idea of an event happening is a projection of the mind. For events to happen you need a concept of time, which is a creation of the mind. Cessations prove that time can stop from a phenomenological perspective (nibbana is timeless). Physics above the quantum scale is deterministic (and quantum indeterminacy doesn’t really affect the world we experience apart from in contrived experiments). This means that given the initial conditions, everything has basically “already happened”. It only appears to us that things are happening because we have a limited viewpoint from within the illusory flow of time. Nonduality means that viewpoint is an illusion, hence things only appear to happen from the illusory perspective of a dualistic subject. In the nondual/nibbanic reality, nothing is happening at all!

Cheers
agnostic

It appears to be happening that you continue to appear to fuck with what happens to be appearing in this kid's mind, with your asinine jargon and degradation of common English, which apparent-happening, in this unreal appearance of non-existent you discoursing from the place where nothing is happening, is all too full of actual, metaphorically stinking, shit.

you sound like Meister Eckhart arguing for his life before his Inquisitors, in latin, trying to parse every linguistic thing just so, to save his own ass from the flames. T sees through this shit, man, don't you get that?

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5/4/20 6:35 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Pardon me for finding them so, Tim, but you have hilarious DhO cycles. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/4/20 6:58 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Pardon me for finding them so, Tim, but you have hilarious DhO cycles. 
death is easy, it's comedy that's tough. i'll be here all week.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/4/20 10:39 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
agnostic:
Hi T - shooting for < 1000 characters here!

I think it’s correct (if annoying) to use the qualifier appears to happen for everything, because the idea of an event happening is a projection of the mind. For events to happen you need a concept of time, which is a creation of the mind. Cessations prove that time can stop from a phenomenological perspective (nibbana is timeless). Physics above the quantum scale is deterministic (and quantum indeterminacy doesn’t really affect the world we experience apart from in contrived experiments). This means that given the initial conditions, everything has basically “already happened”. It only appears to us that things are happening because we have a limited viewpoint from within the illusory flow of time. Nonduality means that viewpoint is an illusion, hence things only appear to happen from the illusory perspective of a dualistic subject. In the nondual/nibbanic reality, nothing is happening at all!

Cheers
agnostic

It appears to be happening that you continue to appear to fuck with what happens to be appearing in this kid's mind, with your asinine jargon and degradation of common English, which apparent-happening, in this unreal appearance of non-existent you discoursing from the place where nothing is happening, is all too full of actual, metaphorically stinking, shit.

you sound like Meister Eckhart arguing for his life before his Inquisitors, in latin, trying to parse every linguistic thing just so, to save his own ass from the flames. T sees through this shit, man, don't you get that?

It's funny because when I wrote this it seemed like the most profound thing in the world, but yeah now it sounds like someone on speed describing their acid trip.

I'm done fucking with other people's minds. My mind is perfectly capable of fucking with itself, as we have all witnessed. emoticon 

As you were T!

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5/4/20 5:07 PM as a reply to agnostic.
I'm not convinced physical determinism has anything to do with the mind. We don't understand the mind, so we cannot understand how it relates to deterministic molecular action.

For example, what if making a choice led to our awareness jumping to another universe?  Then each universe would be deterministic and unaffected by our choices, but we would still have free will, and experience the consequenes of our actions. So let's not give the physicisists more credit than they deserve. And let's not box ourselves in with too much linear thinking from theories that are barely a hundred years old.

Besides, we don't need to understand the universe.  We only need to understand ourselves.

emoticon (The entity formerly known as curious)

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5/4/20 5:14 PM as a reply to Not two, not one.
I think the Buddha would have studied the basics of physics if he was alive today, given how interested he seemed to be in the world around him.

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5/5/20 6:27 AM as a reply to agnostic.
I suspect if he were alive today and reading the DhO, the Buddha would have said, "Agnostic, forget understanding physics. Understand your mind."

emoticon

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5/5/20 6:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Point taken. Although a bit of my mind is a physicist. The forefront of theoretical physics today is basically metaphysics/bullshit anyway.

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5/5/20 6:55 AM as a reply to agnostic.
Like... what parts?

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5/5/20 7:08 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Like string theory and multiverses.

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5/5/20 7:13 AM as a reply to agnostic.
How so?

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5/5/20 7:40 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
They are not falsifiable. General Relativity made a falsifiable prediction which was tested within 5 years. The string theory priesthood been sucking in our best brains for 30 years and still nothing ...

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/5/20 7:44 AM as a reply to agnostic.
I don't think any of us would be capable of fucking with T:s mind, thankfully. 

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5/5/20 8:07 AM as a reply to agnostic.
Saying that it hasn't been falsified by the Large Hadron Collider is both true and misleading. I'll challenge the SciAm comment with this one, then leave you to have the last word as this is, after all, T's practice log:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/0704.0647.pdf

Cosmological observations may provide several interesting ways of testing string theory, which is important for its further development. For example, a discovery of the cosmological acceleration corresponding to the existence of the cosmological constant Λ ∼ 10−120 (in Planck units Mp = 1, where Mp = 2.435 × 1018 GeV) initially was viewed as a problem for string theory. For a while is was not known how to describe an accelerating 4D universe in a vacuum state with a positive energy density. Eventually the problem was resolved by the KKLT construction [1] (developing on [2]), which allowed to explain acceleration in a metastable vacuum state. Earlier and further investigation of these issue [3], combined with the ideas of eternal inflation [4, 5], resulted in the development of the idea of inflationary multiverse [5, 6] and string landscape scenario [7], which may have important implications for the general methodology of theoretical physics.

There are some other ways in which cosmology can be used for testing string theory. Much attention of string theory and cosmology communities during the recent few years, starting with [8], was dedicated to the possible future detection of cosmic strings produced after inflation [9, 10]. It is viewed as a possible window of a string theory into the real world. If detected, cosmic strings in the sky may test various ideas in string theory and cosmology. 

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5/5/20 8:46 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
This paper doesn't make any falsifiable predictions. It's classic string theory really:

One could argue therefore that the experimental detection of tensor modes would be in a contradiction with the existing models of string cosmology. Let us remember, however, that many of us did not expect the discovery of the tiny cosmological constant Λ ∼ 10−120, and that it took some time before we learned how to describe acceleration of the universe in the context of string theory. Since there exists a lass of rather simple non-stringy inflationary models predicting r in the interval 0.3 < r < 0.3. As we will see, this result would not necessarily contradict string theory, but it may have important implications for the models of string theory inflation, as well as for particle phenomenology based on string theory.

To paraphrase: there are simpler models other than string theory which explain possible observed tensor modes, but if the data turns out that way we will just modify string theory (like we did last time with cosmological acceleration). It's like ptolemaic astronomy - just add more epicycles if the data contradicts the theory. You can't disprove this kind of physics, which is precisely the point - it keeps the funding flowing.

Sorry to go off piste on your log again T!

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5/5/20 10:16 AM as a reply to agnostic.
No worries, mate! I once had an angry, well-read, profoundly knowledgeable sutta-scholar and anti-semite go bananas on my log.

I try not to let my log solidify itself into any one identity. it's more of a process, really. 

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5/6/20 6:43 AM as a reply to T.
I was listening to Buddhist Geeks 417 with Vinay Gupta. The title is "You've Got to Remember that God is an Idiot"

His take is hilarious and poignant. Here are some pieces of quotes from his outline of what enlightenment is/no and the purpose of a guru. 

"...the attributes those monkeys have before they get enlightened tend to be those attributes those monkeys have after they get enlightened...the monkey suit really is not transformed by the enlightenment process. The occupant might correctly understand the relationship between itself and the monkey suit, and the relationship between itself and the world beyond the monkey suit, but at the end of the day the monkey suit is still there..."

"...a lot of the job of the gurus is basically to beat some sense into the monkeys before they get enlightened, because after they get enlightened you can't beat sense into them...actual personal change is extraordinarily difficult after you're enlightened because all the motivation to change goes away. {parroting} 'Everything is just as it is and the world is cosmic wonder. I'm exactly as God as made me and...maybe one day I'll stop drinking, but probably not.'"

I really find this interesting and useful. The idea of morality being the first and last training seems evident here - it's vital to have it beforehand. The other is that the purpose of the teacher/guru is, sure, as a technique guide, but more importantly to point out places where morality may need to be tightened up in advance. So, the eightfold path. Then, when the monkey is liberated, they still have the momentum of living well in society. 

Oh, right. Log. 

Um. Been sitting as normal. Mornings WHM breathing, stretching, and brutally cold showers. Sitting is breath counting, though I'm coming back around to noting some. Evenings are the same. 

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5/6/20 7:43 AM as a reply to T.
Afterthought: I do actually have an actual note about noting, in actuality. 

When I appear to engage in noting, I can slay aliens with the best of them. *pew pew* 

Unless they are thoughts. 

I'm always late to the party on thoughts. At least, many thoughts.

Every other sense bows down before me and my terrible ray gun bringing death and destruction to (nearly) all sensations. 

Except, I suddenly find that the sultry allure of thought has snagged me and disarmed my ray gun without my noticing the slightest thing amiss.

Until the mental activity spills into something more obviously tangible - like a clear mental image, or perhaps the soft and supple scent of a long-forgotten memory dancing in my nostrils...

WHAM... it's too late! I'd been disarmed and hog-tied before I had a prayer of noting it into oblivion. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/6/20 8:10 AM as a reply to T.
T:

"...a lot of the job of the gurus is basically to beat some sense into the monkeys before they get enlightened, because after they get enlightened you can't beat sense into them...actual personal change is extraordinarily difficult after you're enlightened because all the motivation to change goes away. {parroting} 'Everything is just as it is and the world is cosmic wonder. I'm exactly as God as made me and...maybe one day I'll stop drinking, but probably not.'"



That is exactly what has been freaking me out lately. It seems to be like that at least for some who at least think they have awakened. I don't want that to ever happen to me, because hey, there's a lot to work with here, and that arrogance is just appalling. Hence a little prayer in my log which you may have seen. I'm hoping that for people who think psychological maturation and stuff like that are important now, the wish to grow will remain even after awakening, but who knows... Apparently there are realized people who continue to work with themselves, too, so it shouldn't be impossible (and I for one wouldn't trust a teacher who thinks working with themselves after awakening is unnecessary), but just in case, I better work with myself now, before it's too late. 

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5/7/20 5:00 AM as a reply to T.
Unless I get very, very deep in concentration practice - I always have music playing in my mind. When I wake up in the morning, it's generally a new song. Often times something fairly popular and contemporary, but just as likely to be something I haven't heard since I was 8-10 years old. On loops. I don't listen to the radio/music nearly at all anymore and it's something that has been happening as long as I can remember. 

It never stops, seemingly. When I do get very concentrated and in any kind of jhana-like state, I can tell when I'm dropping out of it because the music starts again.

Sometimes I find it extraordinarily annoying - particularly in times with the discursive mind is actually quiet (both the singing of lyrics and the discursive mind, while not happening literally at once, happen independently in a sense and in parallel).

It still happens when I'm equanimous about it, though. So I've not figured out how to quiet it aside from going comatose on concentration. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/7/20 5:14 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Unless I get very, very deep in concentration practice - I always have music playing in my mind. When I wake up in the morning, it's generally a new song. Often times something fairly popular and contemporary, but just as likely to be something I haven't heard since I was 8-10 years old. On loops. I don't listen to the radio/music nearly at all anymore and it's something that has been happening as long as I can remember. 

It never stops, seemingly. When I do get very concentrated and in any kind of jhana-like state, I can tell when I'm dropping out of it because the music starts again.

Sometimes I find it extraordinarily annoying - particularly in times with the discursive mind is actually quiet (both the singing of lyrics and the discursive mind, while not happening literally at once, happen independently in a sense and in parallel).

It still happens when I'm equanimous about it, though. So I've not figured out how to quiet it aside from going comatose on concentration. 

I combed through this twice, looking for a problem. Jayzus, T!

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/20050155

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/7/20 10:42 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
I'm finding it grating after 25 years (I can't surely account for the first ten having this). It's not usually a problem, but when everything else gets quiet, the only thing left standing is the constant singing. 

I can't decide if I need to make music to get it out, or if it's just something that will continue even as the discursive mind eventually quiets, or what. I've been told this sort of thing is more common among people with OCD, though I've never been told I live with that.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/7/20 11:28 AM as a reply to T.
T:
I'm finding it grating after 25 years (I can't surely account for the first ten having this). It's not usually a problem, but when everything else gets quiet, the only thing left standing is the constant singing. 

I can't decide if I need to make music to get it out, or if it's just something that will continue even as the discursive mind eventually quiets, or what. I've been told this sort of thing is more common among people with OCD, though I've never been told I live with that.

I have this at some periods, that just listening to a song once or remembering it, makes it to play with no breaks in my mind for days or weeks.

Practicing mantra can help.
Or labeling, like See Hear Feel.

Shinzen has a technique, specifically designed for these things that get stuck in mind. I guess its name is "How to Echo Talk". He has a pdf file with this name on his site:


https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/art_echo.pdf

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
5/7/20 2:57 PM as a reply to T.
T:
I was listening to Buddhist Geeks 417 with Vinay Gupta. The title is "You've Got to Remember that God is an Idiot"

His take is hilarious and poignant. Here are some pieces of quotes from his outline of what enlightenment is/no and the purpose of a guru. 

"...the attributes those monkeys have before they get enlightened tend to be those attributes those monkeys have after they get enlightened...the monkey suit really is not transformed by the enlightenment process. The occupant might correctly understand the relationship between itself and the monkey suit, and the relationship between itself and the world beyond the monkey suit, but at the end of the day the monkey suit is still there..."

"...a lot of the job of the gurus is basically to beat some sense into the monkeys before they get enlightened, because after they get enlightened you can't beat sense into them...actual personal change is extraordinarily difficult after you're enlightened because all the motivation to change goes away. {parroting} 'Everything is just as it is and the world is cosmic wonder. I'm exactly as God as made me and...maybe one day I'll stop drinking, but probably not.'"

I really find this interesting and useful. The idea of morality being the first and last training seems evident here - it's vital to have it beforehand. The other is that the purpose of the teacher/guru is, sure, as a technique guide, but more importantly to point out places where morality may need to be tightened up in advance. So, the eightfold path. Then, when the monkey is liberated, they still have the momentum of living well in society. 

Oh, right. Log. 

Um. Been sitting as normal. Mornings WHM breathing, stretching, and brutally cold showers. Sitting is breath counting, though I'm coming back around to noting some. Evenings are the same. 

Whoah, someone else that uses WHM and this log has been right in front of my face the whole time! I've just been too lazy or self-absorbed to check it out.  And a musician as well (?)... I must be in the right place.

Great stuff man, I look forward to following this log.  I've been curious about Wim Hof practice and any other energy practice and how that complements the traditional sitting methods.  Have you found any relationship there, any particular combination or order of operation that seems to work?  I feel like the energy breathing can be used in a way that helps you through the insight process though I'm entirely sure how, trying to work it out.

Also, I'm curious about how the cold therapy works in with everything. I haven't done too much of it, I have tried doing a cold shower after breathing but hasn't done much for me yet... 

cheers!
John

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
5/7/20 6:25 PM as a reply to Siavash.
Thank you, Siavash!

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5/7/20 6:36 PM as a reply to John W.
I've been curious about Wim Hof practice and any other energy practice and how that complements the traditional sitting methods.  Have you found any relationship there, any particular combination or order of operation that seems to work? 

I had been toying with the breathing for a long time and another poster here mentioned they did it and found it helpful. That tipped me over into trying it in combination with the fact that there is/was a 50% off for the 10-week course. So I follow that, and in week four WH starts telling you to sit after the breathing and push-ups and talks about a nimitta, basically. So he definitely sees a correlation. The stretching appears to be asanas, like what one would find in Ram Dass' book. The breathing is very interesting - the body sensations and activations are really fascinating to watch and meditation all to themselves. He admonishes not to force anything, so this isn't a struggle to hold your breath forever and pass out. I really am enjoying it. No idea what I'm getting out of it, if anything. ;) 
I feel like the energy breathing can be used in a way that helps you through the insight process though I'm entirely sure how, trying to work it out.

I'm not sure if this is true - hasn't brought much insight to me, yet, or I'm too thick to land it. Jury's out. If you really focus on what's happening with the body it's most definitely a concentration practice. 
Also, I'm curious about how the cold therapy works in with everything. I haven't done too much of it, I have tried doing a cold shower after breathing but hasn't done much for me yet... 

When you do the course there is a pdf that explains the health benefits of the breathing and the cold tolerance methodology. The cold seems to be more related to inflammation and body processes than mental things - doesn't mean it can't provide purification. For example, I just started reading Shinzen Young's The Science of Enlightenment, and he talks about being a Zen monk and being required to bathe in freezing cold water and how much concentration one must keep to stay warm. Well, that's certainly true and what I have been learning. It's 100% in the mind's control to work itself and stabilize in very cold temperatures. I am in week five and I can already feel it happen when I breathe calmly and focus on just doing it. I mean literally feel the system do something in the chest, back, arms... and it can change depending on where the water is hitting. It's pretty fascinating. If you stop paying attention, though, it doesn't take long to feel cold. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/7/20 7:35 PM as a reply to T.
I feel like the energy breathing can be used in a way that helps you through the insight process though I'm entirely sure how, trying to work it out.

I'm not sure if this is true - hasn't brought much insight to me, yet, or I'm too thick to land it. Jury's out. If you really focus on what's happening with the body it's most definitely a concentration practice. 
Also, I'm curious about how the cold therapy works in with everything. I haven't done too much of it, I have tried doing a cold shower after breathing but hasn't done much for me yet... 

When you do the course there is a pdf that explains the health benefits of the breathing and the cold tolerance methodology. The cold seems to be more related to inflammation and body processes than mental things - doesn't mean it can't provide purification. For example, I just started reading Shinzen Young's The Science of Enlightenment, and he talks about being a Zen monk and being required to bathe in freezing cold water and how much concentration one must keep to stay warm. Well, that's certainly true and what I have been learning. It's 100% in the mind's control to work itself and stabilize in very cold temperatures. I am in week five and I can already feel it happen when I breathe calmly and focus on just doing it. I mean literally feel the system do something in the chest, back, arms... and it can change depending on where the water is hitting. It's pretty fascinating. If you stop paying attention, though, it doesn't take long to feel cold. 

Wow, very nice, now I'll have to check out the classes. It sounds like it gets much more in depth than what I have been doing.  I've just been doing the basic breathing technique, usually 3-4 rounds a couple of times a day, maybe 3-4 times if it seems to be helping.  Seems like the classes are a pretty good workout.

And yeah what I mean by, how can energy relate to insight practice, just to clarify: I agree that energy practice is a concentration practice. It's more about like, how can the energy created by WHM be used in a way that facilitates insight.  Energy is an object so that object can be investigated by definition... but the insight process is a separate thing.  In my case, I sometimes get pressure in my head and neck from meditation and so if I have these symptoms, I sometimes experiment with building energy like from WHM, to sort of unblock that pressure or relieve it, by just shaking things up and creating this larger field of energy across the body.  I've had some positive results and not much downside that I can tell.  I think there's other practices that deal with balancing and spreading energy across the body in a way that just smooths things out, somehow.

My current thought is that energy practice may help you smooth the ride through the Dark Night and into Equanimity, it's not necessarily gonna provide you with a full fruition.  Who knows though.

Definitely seems like the cold therapy is helping your concentration though! That's ice cold.


-John

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/7/20 8:02 PM as a reply to T.
T:
I'm finding it grating after 25 years (I can't surely account for the first ten having this). It's not usually a problem, but when everything else gets quiet, the only thing left standing is the constant singing. 

I can't decide if I need to make music to get it out, or if it's just something that will continue even as the discursive mind eventually quiets, or what. I've been told this sort of thing is more common among people with OCD, though I've never been told I live with that.


"constant singing"--- like nada? hum? buzz? melodic? Bach? blues? big band? acid rock? folk? specifics, please.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/8/20 7:04 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
T:
I'm finding it grating after 25 years (I can't surely account for the first ten having this). It's not usually a problem, but when everything else gets quiet, the only thing left standing is the constant singing. 

I can't decide if I need to make music to get it out, or if it's just something that will continue even as the discursive mind eventually quiets, or what. I've been told this sort of thing is more common among people with OCD, though I've never been told I live with that.


"constant singing"--- like nada? hum? buzz? melodic? Bach? blues? big band? acid rock? folk? specifics, please.

It depends. I think many people can relate to it - it's essentially what happens when you can't get a really annoying/catchy song out of your head. Eventually, though, it does go away for most people. Mine just keeps on rolling and it isn't always the hook, but sometimes the entire song. If I get rid of one, another replaces it. 

Specifics? One day it was the hook to Kryie by Mr. Mister. Another day, it was Blues Traveler, another day it was Los Delinquentes, sometimes it can be Eddie Money, or Paul Simon, or Dead Poetic, or Thrice, or Neutral Milk Hotel. There isn't seemingly a method. It's all music I've heard before, of course. That's the only thread. 

If I do listen to music, of course, it goes away. Generally, it comes back once I'm not listening to music. It's often not what I was listening to, but whatever is stuck in the recess of my mind. The only thing I find problematic about it, generally speaking, is that it sticks around even when I get the narrative/discursive mind quieted. Siavash recommended echo talk, but that would just amount to singing the song over and over, which is already happening. 

When we do listen to music, my wife gets annoyed because I learn the lyrics really fast, and my wife never can. It's because it just recycles in my head. If I don't know the lyrics, then I'm just tortured by this propensity to have the mind continue trying, yet failing due to not knowing the words. That never stopped 'er, though! The ole mind will soldier on and torture me with or without knowing the words. 

edit* when I do the WHM breathing mostly all the thoughts get occupied by focus on the body, and then a hum/buzz in the ears which is so nice in comparison. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
5/8/20 7:17 AM as a reply to T.
This kind of music getting stuck in mind becomes annoying to me sometimes too.
What I've taken from that Echo Talk technique, that works for me, is that sometimes when a song is repeating in my mind, I replace it with another song intentionally by remembering that other song. But sometimes it becomes worse, and this new song starts repeating itself.

The other approach that works better, from that technique, is that I notice the song, and instead of listening to the rest of it, I put a musical ending to it, and sometimes it makes it go away. When that doesn't work, I continue listening to the song, but just slow it down, and after slowing it down for a little bit, I change some of the tunes in my mind, or put and ending to it. A combintation of these works a lot of times, but sometimes not. But in general listening to the silence between words and tunes, and trying to extend and expand that silence is good.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/8/20 7:28 AM as a reply to Siavash.
I'll give it a go!

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/8/20 2:43 PM as a reply to T.
If none of this works, try the opposite strategy! Give yourself permission for one session to listen to as much music in your head as you want to. Sometimes giving ourselves permission to indulge in something we are resisting actually makes us realize we don't really want to do it after all and then the urge vanishes. I know this is not really an urge, more of an automatic thing, but it might work. I learnt the technique from Ajahn Brahm's book I think where he used it do deal with distracting sexual urges and it works for me sometimes.

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
Answer
5/9/20 12:56 AM as a reply to T.
T:
Tim Farrington:
T:
I'm finding it grating after 25 years (I can't surely account for the first ten having this). It's not usually a problem, but when everything else gets quiet, the only thing left standing is the constant singing. 

I can't decide if I need to make music to get it out, or if it's just something that will continue even as the discursive mind eventually quiets, or what. I've been told this sort of thing is more common among people with OCD, though I've never been told I live with that.


"constant singing"--- like nada? hum? buzz? melodic? Bach? blues? big band? acid rock? folk? specifics, please.

It depends. I think many people can relate to it - it's essentially what happens when you can't get a really annoying/catchy song out of your head. Eventually, though, it does go away for most people. Mine just keeps on rolling and it isn't always the hook, but sometimes the entire song. If I get rid of one, another replaces it. 


T, this is reminiscent, on a grander scale of the old meditation joke, that if you give the personthe instruction to not think of a pink elephant during the sit, they will almost inevitably be plagued by the most furiously creative and relentless barrage of pink elephant images "imaginable."

There's a bunch that sort of catches at me in this discussion. I hope we're not falling into something like somehow what you need to do is silence the mind directly, which is pink elephant syndrome pure and simple.

The mind makes its noise as the world does, because the mind and the world are the same, intertwined, enmeshed, mutually feeding each other. This is just a species of noise, in that light. I live fifty yards from a major railroad line's tracks, and we often get freight trains passing at all hours that are several miles long and rumble and rattle by deafeningly for five minutes or more. In meditation, i am sometimes aware of them, but more often register them as a sort of vague nagging discomfort, and usually only realize what it was when they are past and i realize from the silence what was happening. So at worst, you could just see the music as your version of a train passing in the night. People in NY and Chicago live right under the el lines, and their dishes rattle in the cupboards every fifteen minutes. They all learn to sleep, or die. So will you.

But i think the real things that tugs at me here is this entire hidden assumption that the music is a bad thing in the first place, to be out-foxed or techniqued away. I mean, why? Music--- this particular kind of apparently ineradicable music--- is something close to the uniquely human mind capacity par excellence. This music is a monitor, a radar screen, an open channel from depths none of us can grasp or control. And it seems like often enough, it is actually music you love. Why fix it, i say again. What's broke, here?
When we do listen to music, my wife gets annoyed because I learn the lyrics really fast, and my wife never can.

with all due respect to the sacred ordeal of marriage, this seems like your wife's problem, to me.
It's because it just recycles in my head. If I don't know the lyrics, then I'm just tortured by this propensity to have the mind continue trying, yet failing due to not knowing the words. That never stopped 'er, though! The ole mind will soldier on and torture me with or without knowing the words. 
i rally do suspect that this torture is gratuitous, and based on false assumptions about what mind is, and what meditation should be. 

How about this: make the music your meditation object for a sit or two. Steer with the skid, let it do whatever the fuck it wants from Twinkle Twinkle Little star and advertising jingles to Bach cantatas and Gregorian chants. Just listen to it on good old WZEN FM, with your earphones on to spare your wife, and let that be your meditation. Hear what happens then. I'll be interested,

love, tim

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5/9/20 1:31 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Ah, Tim just said what I was about to say. The music isn't a problem, unless you make it one. I have music playing in my mind all the time. It sort of lives its own life. There is no need for me to do anything about it. It's not me, not mine. I don't have to engage with it, nor do I have to actively disengage. It can mind its own business, and you are free to just let it. If it really really bothers you, then that's just the way it is too. It will pass. There is always silence available too, at the same time. Nothing can take away the silence. The trick is to trust that, even when it seems obscured by noice. You have a beautiful silence waiting patiently for you, always, and it doesn't mind the music.

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5/9/20 6:58 AM as a reply to agnostic.
Hi T!

I was just thinking about you again because I faced the same problem this morning (my mind was being distracted by a fun computer program I had been working on) which hasn't happened for a while. I remembered that my main trick is NOT the "let it rip" suggestion above. Here's what works for me:

The reason the mind goes to the nice distraction is because it is not finding enough pleasure in the meditation object (the breath in my case). The solution is to find more pleasure in the breath.

If you have instant access to piti-sukha (rapture-pleasure) then focus on that. If not then use Leigh Brasington's suggestion (from Right Concentration): focus on a pleasant sensation in the body and let it grow. Once the piti-sukha is flowing then the mind gets into a positive feedback loop that it starts finding so much pleasure in the breath that it won't want to go anywhere else, however attractive. Ajahn Brahm's book (Mindfulness, Bliss & Beyond) is good for emphasizing the pure pleasurable aspect of meditation and also his YouTube talks where he is a nice happy guy talking about relaxation and fun and pleasure in meditation. Sounds a bit froo-froo, but he has deep jhana on tap apparently so not to be discounted. Worked for me.

Another trick if the song keeps bothering you: take it one breath at a time. Try to make it to the end of the current breath keeping the mind on the breath and resisting the pull to the song. And then the next breath. If that is too hard, then try to make it to the end of the in-breath, then the end of the pause, then the end of the outbreath. That way you are making lots of small measurable successes and not getting so annoyed each time you get distracted, because you can always come right back and have another success with 2-5 seconds without getting distracted. Again, it helps you to get into a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop, which is key. Distractions are really a symptom of aversion (mild anger) towards the meditation object in my opinion, so anything you can do to make the meditation more pleasant and less frustrating should help.

Re-reading your post, it sounds like you already have access to quite deep concentration, so not sure if my baby suggestions above are relevant, but anyway it's what works for me, YMMV.

Cheers
agnostic

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5/9/20 9:47 AM as a reply to agnostic.
I suppose this was misleading because I posted it in my log. It's no problem when I'm sitting. During meditation the focus is most generally quite high and it doesn't happen. It's just in daily life. 

However - in deference to everyone's advice, in particular yours, it seems that this may be some kind of aversion to what's happening in the normal activity. Like a distraction welling up out of an aversion for what is presented elsewhere in the mind, perhaps. 

This is interesting. I've been considering how to better make meditation just plain living, which isn't something I have been good at. My job is frenetic, erratic, and busy so the stimulation is quite regular. However, home life can seem mundane by comparison, which may be causing the aversion. 

The information is useful to start trying to unbox my sits into normal activity. That's probably something that should happen anyway simply because not much has been happening sitting and sniffing. 

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5/9/20 5:08 PM as a reply to T.
Ok, no problem, I tend to jump to conclusions without properly reading/listening to other people! Thinking about this issue was helpful for me.

My meditation practice deepened after I addressed work/lifestyle issues, which were seemingly much harder than the meditation-related issues. In retrospect it was obvious what changes I needed to make, although it certainly didn't feel like it at the time. Well actually the needed change was obvious, but the amount of resistance and feeling of risk was huge. But once the decision was made it was easy and I can't believe I waited so long to address the issues.

Cheers
ag

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/10/20 12:48 AM as a reply to T.
T:
I suppose this was misleading because I posted it in my log. It's no problem when I'm sitting. During meditation the focus is most generally quite high and it doesn't happen. It's just in daily life. 

However - in deference to everyone's advice, in particular yours, it seems that this may be some kind of aversion to what's happening in the normal activity. Like a distraction welling up out of an aversion for what is presented elsewhere in the mind, perhaps. 

This is interesting. I've been considering how to better make meditation just plain living, which isn't something I have been good at. My job is frenetic, erratic, and busy so the stimulation is quite regular. However, home life can seem mundane by comparison, which may be causing the aversion. 

The information is useful to start trying to unbox my sits into normal activity. That's probably something that should happen anyway simply because not much has been happening sitting and sniffing. 
oops! emoticon
However - in deference to everyone's advice . . . it seems that this may be some kind of aversion to what's happening in the normal activity. Like a distraction welling up out of an aversion for what is presented elsewhere in the mind, perhaps. 
no, no, don't please don't defer to my fucking advice on the wrong fucking thing!

and don't fucking say empty speculative shit to placate the idiot crowd of Us, who all got you wrong in the first place. if you're going to defer to idiot advice, start with this: don't fucking say empty speculative shit to placate . . .

This is interesting. I've been considering how to better make meditation just plain living, which isn't something I have been good at. My job is frenetic, erratic, and busy so the stimulation is quite regular. However, home life can seem mundane by comparison, which may be causing the aversion. 
Yes, yes, the most interesting thing, perhaps. I think making meditation just plain living, and just plain living meditation, may be the Big Door Prize. Nirvana is samsara, samsara is nirvina, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, not a phallic symbol, and a good cigar is always a smoke.

It's probably you having to stifle singing every lyric to every song at home that is causing this crisis in mundanity. Tell your wife that she must transcend her feelings of inadequacy at your photographic-lyrics mind. Make a new mix tape full of true love songs just for her, properly inscribed to your one and only Beloved, and play it for her; and, using a beer bottle as your microphone, croon every lyric directly to her from your knees, gazing upon her radiant loving features and into the vast eternal depths of her eyes as if you're trying to get laid after the show.
The information is useful to start trying to unbox my sits into normal activity. That's probably something that should happen anyway [font="comic sans ms", cursive]simply because not much has been happening sitting and sniffing. [editor's note: sic!!!]
Sometime very recently, i recall reading something on your thread and thinking, Fuck, this guy's in hog heaven. I said, "Waiter, I'll have what he's having." Remember?

I mean, Jayzus Foocking Ker-eyst, you greedy bastard. What has the Buddha done for you lately (meaning, apparently, in the couple of weeks since your most recent wave of cosmic calm)? Is that it?

emoticon

love, tim

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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5/10/20 6:47 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.


I mean, Jayzus Foocking Ker-eyst, you greedy bastard. What has the Buddha done for you lately;meaning, apparently, in the couple of weeks since your most recent wave of cosmic calm? Is that it?
emoticon

love, tim

Nah, man. I'm living in the nooooow, Garth! I have no memory of what came before, nor do I experience future, I tell you verily. 








I'll get back to you tomorrow. 

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5/30/20 3:04 AM as a reply to T.
T:


I mean, Jayzus Foocking Ker-eyst, you greedy bastard. What has the Buddha done for you lately;meaning, apparently, in the couple of weeks since your most recent wave of cosmic calm? Is that it?
emoticon

love, tim

Nah, man. I'm living in the nooooow, Garth! I have no memory of what came before, nor do I experience future, I tell you verily. 








I'll get back to you tomorrow. 

Tomorrow never comes, you fucking wannabe poseur. And Jesus said to pay it no mind anyway. Sufficient unto the day is the dukha thereof.

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6/12/20 7:26 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
You always find cunning humor where none was intended, but then when I throw it out there clear as day - you choke!

Paraphrasing Wayne's World, talking about being totally in the now and not experiencing anything else, only to tell you I'll get back to you tomorrow... come on, Tim!


Oh, right, right. Log. 

I meditated a little.
I did a lot of WHM breathing (basically serious body awareness). 
I noticed a lot of what happens during my day and stayed with it. 
On a drive home today I was blown out by the depth of field ahead - the road, the shoulder, the trees, the sky, and the clouds... all extremely obviously at different depths with their own shine to them. My heart was overjoyed and swelled. It passed after a few minutes and I was content with the passing. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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6/12/20 10:56 PM as a reply to T.
emoticon
You always find cunning humor where none was intended, but then when I throw it out there clear as day - you choke!

Paraphrasing Wayne's World, talking about being totally in the now and not experiencing anything else, only to tell you I'll get back to you tomorrow... come on, Tim!

ooooooops.

love, tim

p.s. uh, my bad? lol?

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6/12/20 11:02 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
emoticon

no, it's too much, i cannot bear this shame. i'll never laugh again. I am not worthy of laughter, Wayne.


RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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6/12/20 11:03 PM as a reply to T.
T:

Oh, right, right. Log. 

I meditated a little.
I did a lot of WHM breathing (basically serious body awareness). 
I noticed a lot of what happens during my day and stayed with it. 
On a drive home today I was blown out by the depth of field ahead - the road, the shoulder, the trees, the sky, and the clouds... all extremely obviously at different depths with their own shine to them. My heart was overjoyed and swelled. It passed after a few minutes and I was content with the passing. 

Oh right, right. Log.

Great log entry, dude. Rock on.

love, tim

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/23/20 8:03 PM as a reply to T.
I've just been doing whatever lately. I have rarely been sitting, though I do continue dabbling with WHM breathing, which I still find fantastic and exhilarating. I highly recommend it as just something to do for general well-being. 

I have been listening to a lot of podcast talks about various topics. Reading AEN's blog and trying to get unstuck from the I am stage. For several days I felt a serious internal crisis of "this has to happen now. I'm panicking. This has to happen. I need to do this." It went away. I don't really "do" cycling or any of that business, but based on what other people describe... I was seeking deliverance. Today is much better. There was a lot of internal anxiety and pressure yesterday and the day before. Crisis mode for no apparent reason. 

I started the Waking Up app to check it out. I'm on day thirteen. I like it so far. I don't know if anyone actually awakens from using it, but... who cares. It's interesting. 

The visual field continues altered any time I am paying attention to it. Less so indoors - very pronounced outside. It makes my heart jump sometimes to just see a few trees standing tall against the blue sky. Jump as in open in a joyous feeling. It's still very panoramic, which I find particularly useful while driving. 

A few times lately, when I meditate, all the body sensations feel like they're out in front of "me," as opposed to in their assigned locations. For the briefest of moments, I'm not even sure where they are. They're just out there somewhere, but then in the next instant when some small amount off geo-locating returns, it's as if all sensations are out front; even the sensations of my back and the back of my head. They all seem to be in front of... me, for lack of a better term. The place where I generally feel myself to be, inside this meatbag. It's hard to describe. 

I have all sorts of mixed feelings as it happens crop up. I'm both in a sort of jaw-dropped wonder, a bit of a thrill from something out of the ordinary, and also a feeling of fear. Definitely a mix of those, with subtle fear, lots of wonder, some excitement... Also some confusion. 

I've wanted to draw a picture of it for some time, but I'm not quite sure how I'd go about it. 

It's kind of like... there is a sphere. Inside the sphere is the universe, or at least that piece that I can access in any given moment. At one side (for the purposes of this idea) there is a face, neck, chest, arms, legs... 

However, if you zoom out of the sphere, one can see the eyes are hollow, as are the arms, legs, etc. Behind them there is totally empty space of something else looking through and manipulating. The actual limits of the sphere shape into the face and body parts, so they are made up of the same sort of limit of the sphere. Outside the sphere is whatever is looking into the sphere, via the hollow eyes. It's a creepy description, I suppose. I'm not sure how I'd accomplish drawing it. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/25/20 5:31 PM as a reply to T.
My two and a half year old daughter has been having sleep regression and is also suffering ignobly with a terrible head cold. 

Last night was a fiasco. One of those times where each action just leads to some unintended, negative consequence of some kind. Like...knocking something over, stubbing a toe, finding out too late that something doesn't fit into the space you're placing it... I'm sure you all get the general idea. The universe is just doing its thing, but from your perspective - it's almost going out of its way to screw you. In such situations, it's very easy to so quickly get to "why me" or something along those lines. 

So the anger and frustration kept welling up and I noticed it, but didn't react. 

Hours later, when I finally laid down in my own bed and relaxed. I realized that all those emotions and accompanying thoughts had been cropping up and I had been noticing them. It made me laugh a little, because in retrospect I had simply been aware of them as they occurred and then dropped them until the next "fiasco" a mere three minutes later. 

It occurred to me that my mind is still reacting in the way it habitually reacted in the past, but it's almost like it is putting on a play it feels it has to. However, I'm over it.

I'm seeing it do the thing, but I find it humorous how it puts on a show when there's nobody home anymore. At least not in the same way. It's hard to articulate how that view felt - it was humorous. I felt pity for the mind going through hollow motions with no outcomes. I felt free and at ease. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/26/20 5:31 AM as a reply to T.
While sitting, and subsequently repeated in normal life, I realize that all sensations are just blobs "out there." Riffing off of the idea in an earlier post. 

Anyway - they are just blob experiences of sensation "out there," for lack of a better term. My mind throws up a mental projection of an image of what that sensation means. So sitting contemplating my tongue against my teeth - there is the sensation of it - and there is the image of what a tongue against teeth apparently looks like from the inside. The latter gets projected up into the mind as an image, while the sensations themselves are simply representing themselves, but really unidentified except for the mental image. 

I can't actually determine where the sensations are absent the mental image and association. The difference between my left toe, my nose, my tongue, and my back aren't all that distinguishable in space absent the image. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/27/20 7:37 PM as a reply to T.
It feels as though I'm settling more into the witness mode. It isn't unified, though. Ultimately, it seems as though that's what the new sort of vision is all about. It's just a very clean view through the eyes with much less mental background or filtering. A "dumb" and un-opinionated viewer just taking it in - and finding it beautiful. 

Seated with eyes closed, it is very easy to rest in the place where I'm kind of a timeless void. One sort of unified vacuum where all senses gather at once (except sight), and yet still be that which sees those. I'ts very easy to "back up" into this void and just have it all happen before me. This is hard to articulate, but that's the sensation. With eyes open, it doesn't link up quite right to have them all report back to the void. The visual bit is just too strong, it seems, and distracts from the fact that all the other senses are also in the same space. 

I continue relaxing and just... settling backward, for lack of a better term. It certainly loosens it all up. Additionally, I suddenly realize that it was very quiet in those moments, making the times when the thought sense kicks back in much more obvious. So I'll settle a bit and... relax back to it again. Kind of like building muscle memory. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/28/20 1:50 AM as a reply to T.
T:
My two and a half year old daughter has been having sleep regression and is also suffering ignobly with a terrible head cold. 

Last night was a fiasco. One of those times where each action just leads to some unintended, negative consequence of some kind. Like...knocking something over, stubbing a toe, finding out too late that something doesn't fit into the space you're placing it... I'm sure you all get the general idea. The universe is just doing its thing, but from your perspective - it's almost going out of its way to screw you. In such situations, it's very easy to so quickly get to "why me" or something along those lines. 

So the anger and frustration kept welling up and I noticed it, but didn't react. 

Hours later, when I finally laid down in my own bed and relaxed. I realized that all those emotions and accompanying thoughts had been cropping up and I had been noticing them. It made me laugh a little, because in retrospect I had simply been aware of them as they occurred and then dropped them until the next "fiasco" a mere three minutes later. 

It occurred to me that my mind is still reacting in the way it habitually reacted in the past, but it's almost like it is putting on a play it feels it has to. However, I'm over it.

I'm seeing it do the thing, but I find it humorous how it puts on a show when there's nobody home anymore. At least not in the same way. It's hard to articulate how that view felt - it was humorous. I felt pity for the mind going through hollow motions with no outcomes. I felt free and at ease. 

This is so beautiful, T. We often angst about how meditation practice could possibly mesh with "the real world," and a suffering two year old is about as real as it gets. And you just do what needs to be done, against the background static of outdated and no longer active thought patterns and emotional tracks. Your daughter no doubt feels that, the cleanness of the parental care, without resentment or anger or anything else leaking through. Lovely, lovely, lovely. 

And free and at ease. In life's inevitable fiascoes, but not of them, and not feeding the fiasco aspect with emotion or thought, just doing the right thing weightlessly and cleanly.

love, tim

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/28/20 9:12 AM as a reply to T.
While sitting, and subsequently repeated in normal life, I realize that all sensations are just blobs "out there."

Where?

emoticon

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/28/20 11:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yea. Exactly. It's hard to say. It feels as though all the sensations are kind of in front of me, and I'm a passive quiet nada behind it, viewing it all. 

That's the only way to describe it at the moment. Just watching/feeling it all, but apart from it sort of. 

I'm sure you're pointing at something and I know that the witness idea isn't where its at from hanging around here long enough - yet that's how it feels. 

I'm working on it!

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/28/20 12:49 PM as a reply to T.
Okey dokey!

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/29/20 12:38 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
"Okey dokey!": frontrunner for T-shirt of the week!

a close second: "I'm working on it!"

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/29/20 12:50 AM as a reply to T.
You mentioned several times how you were noticing depth of field and hyper-3D perception. I found that interesting as I have had the same thing for the past eight months. Early on, it was so pronounced that ordinary printed perspective views popped out like holograms. I actually had to ask my wife to make sure it wasn't some clever new technology. It's less crazy now but I still really enjoy long vistas. I'm curious to know what is going on there. (But no so curious that I've ever looked into it.)

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/29/20 6:11 AM as a reply to Martin.
I haven't the foggiest. However, when looking at some things, I have noticed that the mental image no longer pops up, or is at least let to simply pass by without grabbing onto it as a representation of that thing being experienced. Maybe that alone makes it clearer and more interesting. 

RE: T's Sporadic Practice Log
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7/30/20 4:18 AM as a reply to T.
T:
I haven't the foggiest. However, when looking at some things, I have noticed that the mental image no longer pops up, or is at least let to simply pass by without grabbing onto it as a representation of that thing being experienced. Maybe that alone makes it clearer and more interesting. 

t-shirt of the week semi-finalist: "I haven't the foggiest."

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