Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/26/20 9:21 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 4/26/20 8:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/26/20 8:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 4/26/20 9:00 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/26/20 9:07 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/26/20 9:17 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 4/27/20 2:18 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/27/20 5:41 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 4/27/20 6:15 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/27/20 5:54 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 4/27/20 6:17 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/28/20 4:32 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 4/29/20 3:01 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/29/20 9:06 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/30/20 12:16 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 4/29/20 6:21 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/30/20 8:33 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 4/30/20 8:35 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 4/30/20 9:12 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Lars 5/1/20 2:32 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/1/20 2:46 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/1/20 5:11 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/1/20 6:55 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/1/20 7:02 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/1/20 4:48 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/1/20 6:20 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/1/20 6:28 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/1/20 6:30 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/1/20 6:31 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/1/20 6:41 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/1/20 6:35 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/1/20 7:51 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/1/20 9:25 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/1/20 10:00 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 5:44 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/2/20 5:59 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 6:34 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 6:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/2/20 7:04 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 7:25 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/2/20 7:35 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 7:49 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/2/20 7:55 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/2/20 8:25 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/2/20 8:40 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/2/20 8:50 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/2/20 8:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/2/20 9:02 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/2/20 10:09 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 11:36 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/2/20 11:42 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/2/20 1:56 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/3/20 10:38 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/3/20 3:56 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/3/20 4:35 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/3/20 10:04 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/3/20 9:40 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/3/20 9:49 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/3/20 10:00 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Gregor 5/3/20 10:07 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/3/20 8:53 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/4/20 2:27 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/4/20 2:31 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/4/20 4:55 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/4/20 6:54 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/4/20 9:20 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/4/20 10:12 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/4/20 1:00 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/4/20 5:14 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/5/20 6:44 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/5/20 3:38 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/6/20 6:47 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 6:53 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 7:06 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 7:16 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 7:20 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/6/20 7:29 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 7:22 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 7:40 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/6/20 7:40 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 7:45 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/6/20 7:49 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 7:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/6/20 7:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 7:50 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 7:52 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 7:54 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 7:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 8:07 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 8:15 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 8:18 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/6/20 8:19 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 8:50 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 8:59 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 9:11 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/6/20 9:22 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/6/20 9:32 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 9:47 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/6/20 4:09 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/6/20 8:18 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 8:29 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/6/20 7:19 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/6/20 9:35 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/6/20 8:11 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/6/20 3:39 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/6/20 7:05 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/6/20 7:58 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/7/20 5:01 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/7/20 5:37 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 5/7/20 6:07 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/7/20 9:12 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/7/20 10:09 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/8/20 6:10 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/8/20 6:13 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/8/20 6:13 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/8/20 6:35 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/8/20 6:52 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/8/20 7:16 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/8/20 8:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/10/20 3:58 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/10/20 4:47 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/14/20 8:37 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/15/20 2:47 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/15/20 11:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/15/20 10:28 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/16/20 1:43 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/16/20 6:48 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Olivier S 5/17/20 2:34 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/16/20 1:29 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/16/20 9:17 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/16/20 11:05 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/17/20 6:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/17/20 9:36 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/17/20 2:08 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/17/20 2:37 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/17/20 9:18 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/18/20 12:48 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/18/20 9:41 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Nicky2 nickjye 5/18/20 10:39 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/19/20 4:33 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/19/20 7:10 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/19/20 9:48 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/19/20 10:09 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/19/20 1:41 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/19/20 3:18 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/19/20 4:00 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/19/20 5:23 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/19/20 5:33 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/20/20 10:01 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/20/20 10:37 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 5/20/20 10:52 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/20/20 6:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/20/20 7:11 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/20/20 9:07 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/20/20 9:22 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/22/20 3:59 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/22/20 7:21 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/22/20 5:42 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/22/20 6:30 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/22/20 10:06 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/23/20 1:08 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/23/20 9:41 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/23/20 7:27 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/24/20 11:10 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/24/20 10:54 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/25/20 3:00 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/25/20 7:15 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/25/20 8:29 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/25/20 8:17 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/25/20 5:02 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 5/25/20 5:13 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/25/20 9:03 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/25/20 11:03 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/26/20 6:28 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/25/20 10:59 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/26/20 6:46 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/28/20 6:10 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/29/20 6:45 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 5/29/20 6:56 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/29/20 11:34 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/30/20 12:06 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/30/20 6:05 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/30/20 6:16 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/30/20 6:24 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/30/20 6:44 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 5/31/20 12:16 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 5/31/20 1:14 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/1/20 7:22 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/2/20 2:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/6/20 3:06 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 6/6/20 4:16 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/7/20 9:26 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/2/20 2:42 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/6/20 2:33 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/10/20 4:26 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/12/20 10:04 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/12/20 10:05 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/12/20 10:05 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/13/20 4:30 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/14/20 12:34 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Papa Che Dusko 6/14/20 7:50 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/14/20 9:07 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/14/20 11:04 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/16/20 11:42 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/17/20 4:50 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/17/20 4:36 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/15/20 9:24 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/16/20 6:09 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 6/16/20 7:43 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/17/20 4:42 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/17/20 3:10 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/17/20 3:56 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Chris M 6/17/20 4:02 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/17/20 10:21 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/18/20 1:56 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 6/18/20 6:24 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 6/19/20 4:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 7/14/20 7:35 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 7/14/20 8:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/14/20 8:58 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) T 7/14/20 12:03 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 7/14/20 2:25 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/16/20 10:03 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Sam Gentile 7/16/20 11:20 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/16/20 11:54 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/16/20 11:52 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/16/20 12:31 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/16/20 12:54 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/16/20 1:51 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Smiling Stone 7/20/20 9:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 7/20/20 10:01 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 12:13 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 12:05 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 12:26 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/19/20 11:44 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 1:25 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 2:46 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 4:09 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/23/20 4:39 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/24/20 7:47 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/24/20 12:47 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/24/20 3:02 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 7/25/20 7:30 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Z . 7/25/20 10:54 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/25/20 11:51 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/28/20 11:50 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/28/20 1:27 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 7/29/20 12:33 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/29/20 11:00 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 7/29/20 11:15 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/5/20 1:56 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/6/20 2:58 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/6/20 10:25 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/7/20 11:57 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/8/20 9:33 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/9/20 1:38 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/9/20 1:47 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/7/20 9:35 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Siavash ' 8/7/20 10:19 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/8/20 9:35 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Z . 8/10/20 12:46 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/10/20 1:07 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Z . 8/10/20 4:11 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/11/20 6:08 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/12/20 3:34 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/14/20 4:55 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/14/20 5:14 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/14/20 12:01 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/10/20 11:25 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/14/20 5:20 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/14/20 5:34 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/14/20 6:19 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/14/20 5:05 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/16/20 9:57 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/16/20 4:28 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Smiling Stone 8/17/20 3:51 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/18/20 6:48 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/28/20 10:19 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/18/20 6:49 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/20/20 9:42 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/20/20 10:00 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/22/20 8:02 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/23/20 12:56 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/23/20 9:01 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/23/20 2:33 PM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) Tim Farrington 8/24/20 1:01 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/27/20 6:53 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/27/20 7:05 AM
RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride) George S 8/27/20 2:36 PM
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:21 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 8:36 AM

Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

Posts: 2473 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
[Link to previous log]

It seems like as good a place as any to start a new log, now I’ve gotten “the joke” and am no longer seeking to become enlightened. This log is dedicated to “smoothing the ride” – practicing the jhanas and working with whatever subconscious material and latent hindrances are causing the bumps. The last log was dedicated to exploring my narcissism and that ended with me becoming no one (a.k.a. “the one” lol), so maybe this one too will be successful just not in the way I expect.

Here’s my ill-advised dharma self-DDx (Differential Diagnosis), a new term which I learnt from Daniel and is probably 98% wrong. I'm reasonably confident that I am either pre-SE, post-3rd or post-4th. Pre-SE because I haven’t experienced clear and repeatable MCTB/Mahasi-style momentary fruitions. Post-3rd because I did experience possible fruitions coinciding with path-like moments in practice – clear first glimpse of anatta (there’s no one here) and feeling of being sucked into the Dharma stream (SE), clearest fruition was possible 2nd path, possible 3rd path was extended depersonalization episodes which caused anxiety but were also recognized as reality (functioning can continue even if there’s no on here). Post-4th because of the realization (not just an intellectual idea) that 4th is not a personal attainment (“the joke”) because it’s the end of the personal perspective on life.

Just to give an example of what the end of the personal perspective means to me. Obviously the future still appears to be happening, but I’m not thinking like I used to “what do I want out of the rest of my life”, it’s more like “what does life want out of me”. And the past still appears to have happened, but it’s more like “what’s the best way to let the past conditioning dissipate skillfully in the present” rather than “I am so messed up because of my past”.

At this point for me maps and paths, while interesting, seem more like a source of attachment/suffering and an impediment to good practice (observing what arises without expectation or desire to get somewhere). But that could just be a reflection of my denial, narcissism or low practice standards.

Anyway, let’s see what comes up …

I went to bed early at 8:30pm with a powerful headache which seemed to arise as a result of new energy channels opened up by deepening meditation earlier in the day. I wake up a couple of times feeling depersonalized but the fear is manageable.

I wake up more clearly at 1:30am and start meditating. I’m expecting to get deeper and calmer but instead I’m mostly flailing around with poor concentration. Every time the samadhi deepens I get derailed by thoughts  and feelings and switch to trying to debug them with a half-hearted vipassana attempt. Several times I feel like either a nimitta or fruition is coming, but it’s not happening. Every time I start to settle in equanimity the mind throws up old memories of people and places. I’m reminded how meditation itself can seem like the source of suffering, although clearly this material is already in there so maybe it’s causing unconscious suffering even if I don’t meditate. But I’m still able to keep track of the sense that this is “not me” suffering, it’s just a computer defragging its hard drive to clean up all the old data files lying scattered about in different places.

I give up after 4 hours and fall into a light sleep. I have a dream where I’m revisiting various haunts of 15-20 years ago. I’m trying to get away to catch a train, but I keep getting delayed by people I used to know. I wake up suddenly with a feeling of being punched in the stomach and that I’m about to vomit.

Clearly the desire for jhana is a source of suffering (frustration at not attaining jhana). It’s just not clear to me if this suffering is unnecessary or was going to arise anyway because the mind will always be unsatisfied on some level if it can’t access its peaceful home in jhana. If it is necessary suffering then I would rather take the pain now as quickly as possible. If it’s unnecessary suffering then clearly I should stop practicing. My gut tells me that it is necessary. Actually logic tells me that too, since there’s no free will and yet here I am still practicing! The best way I can put it is that practice is just what seems to be happening at the moment.

Oh, there’s one other motivation. I lot of the distracting thoughts in my jhana practice are me trying to verbalize and explain what’s going on as if I was trying to teach it. I don’t actually want to be a teacher, but I do like figuring stuff out and explaining it. The process of finding the right formulation and writing it down releases the distracting thought pattern so I can keep making progress in practice. So I’m making some notes as I go and if I get anywhere interesting I will share them on here. A kind of “Hacker’s Guide to Jhana” if you like for people with spotty karma, poor concentration and limited time for practice/retreats. So, please feel free to comment with your own insights and jhana hacks. Let’s make this a collaborative effort!
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 8:51 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 8:51 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Out of courtesy, I locked your last log so nobody can post there. If you don't want that just let me know.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 8:57 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 8:57 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Thanks, but I'd prefer to keep it unlocked in case any new readers have specific questions and I might want to add something at the end as well.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:00 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:00 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Unlocked.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:07 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:07 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Thanks
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:17 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/26/20 9:14 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Spent a lot of time lying on my back this afternoon in the face of strong energy blockages. Relaxing, trying to feel into openings. The spine arches occasionally and there is some movement, but it's very slow progress.

Later a post on noting catches my eye and I reply. I haven't actually done much noting for ages, but afterwards I open my attention to the headache in a kind of diffuse vipassana way rather than the solid shamatha attention coming from breath jhana practice. Wow quickly the headache falls apart into delightful little particles and I'm in a very pleasurable vj2 and quickly down into vj3. For hours I was struggling to focus on the breath because the blockages were so strong, and this vipassana jhana method seems to solve the problem immediately. I guess sometimes the mind is more suited for shamatha and sometimes vipassana. But the net result seems to be the same in terms of progress through piti-sukha to equanimity. That's my second jhana hack now: if your concentration is fragmented/distracted then go the path of least resistance and do vipassana jhana.

Goal now is to spend longer in equanimity (either pc.j4 or vj4), increasing likelihood of nimitta or indeed fruitions (would be nice to get more clarity around those). Damn 12 hours ago I was giving up on mapping and now look at me ...
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 2:18 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 2:17 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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I will follow your journey here. Interesting stuff how path can become unclear at some stage when applying Map of Insights to it. 

Im now in some mixture of pre A&P, post A&P and Jhana dropping the practice from Noting into Absorption. 

I basically don't care where this experience is on the Map as stuff seems to change rather fast and on its own anyway. Anicca all the way I guess. 

I happened to come across shargrol's quote saying that he let the mind go into Jhana when it was inclined for it or if dropping into more dull mind states and proliferation he would use gentle Noting. 

This seems to really be where my practice is right now. I have noticed this mind dropping into Jhana on its own even though I have decided to do full on Noting Aloud. So I just go with the flow and let the Jhana unfold. 
At first I was unsure about this as I trust Noting more than Jhanas. But reading shargrol's experience on this I'm now confident that mind knows where to go. 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 5:41 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 5:40 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Thanks for reading and responding Papa Che. Do you happen to have the link to shargrol's post?

Yeah it seems like noting is better able to absorb the fractured energy of a distracted mind. I also noticed/was reminded that going through the vipassana jhanas the nanas are more compressed and the dark night is easier to handle in vj3. It can be just a quick spooky trip and I found myself sort of grooving to the spookiness of it and actually enjoying it in a slightly sinister way. I think I knew some of this stuff a few months ago but must have forgotten/suppressed it when I went off-piste in "3rd path" and my practice went much broader and intellectual/metaphysical and away from straight noting practice. Good to be getting back to basics!

You also reminded me of some stuff in Ajahn Brahm's book where he addresses this point. It's funny, I had forgotten about it and in my mind assumed that his approach was perfect samatha every time, no vipassana. But re-reading I see he includes this in a manner of speaking. I'm just gonna quote some passages here for my own benefit and anyone else reading cause it's good stuff.

From Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook by Ajahn Brahm

Letting-be meditation can become quite powerful. If your breath meditation or mettā meditation or any other type of meditation isn’t working, very often it’s because the foundation is incorrect. So just do the letting-be meditation. You can “sit out in the garden” and just let things be. Whatever is happening, that’s OK. Whatever you’re experiencing is fine—no preference, no choice, no good or bad, no argument, and no commentary. Just let things be. You can have a little bit of a inner speech, but only a commentary about “letting be.” Just be with what is. Just be with thoughts concerned with the meditation subject, but not about anything else. That way the meditation comes close to complete silent awareness of the present moment.
...
Master meditators who are about to begin meditating will first examine the state of mind that they are to work with. If they have been very busy, they know that they will be starting out with quite a coarse mind. So they may start with a simple letting-be meditation. Perhaps they see that their body is stiff, so they choose to do some walking meditation. When they see that their mind is not so rough, they take up present-moment awareness and then silent present-moment awareness. Master meditators know from experience when their mind is able to watch the breath or ready to begin mettā meditation. They know when to apply the finer tools such as full sustained awareness of the breath or of the beautiful breath. Meditation masters become so proficient in their craft that they know the right time to turn to the nimitta and how to polish it deftly until the mind enters jhāna. Thus a coarse mind straight from the busy office is transformed by the master meditator into the most beautiful, smooth, and radiant mind.
...
Foolish carpenters, in a mad rush, take a coarse piece of wood and begin rubbing it with a polishing cloth! They waste much time and destroy many fine cloths. In the same way, inept meditators, in a rush of arrogance, don’t even take time to notice the coarseness of their mind and try to use mindfulness of the breathing from the very beginning. They waste much time and create many problems for themselves.
So, please become familiar with the various types of meditation until you know when and how they should be used. Then every time you meditate, begin by examining the mind you have to work with, and you will understand which meditation method to use. You will become a doctor of meditation, diagnosing accurately before treating effectively.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 5:54 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 5:53 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Another thing I forgot to mention yesterday. I was lying on my back in the afternoon surfing the wake/sleep boundary, my mind was descending into a random jumble of thoughts and I the phrase "the way things might be" started playing on a loop in my head. Suddenly my awareness shifted a notch deeper and I woke up with a louder more assertive voice saying "the way things must be". I didn't get any more information than that, but it felt like I was tapping into a deeper level of mind where the future is "already known", I guess the area of subconscious drives which ultimately determine more of our behavior. I don’t know, maybe I’m reading too much into it, but it was quite striking. It reminded me of a similar hypnagogic experience 6 months ago when the voice said “there is no path, there is no path, there is no path, 100%”, which looking back on it now was quite prescient given where my practice went after that (non-dual, depersonalization).
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 6:15 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 6:15 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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The link is posted in that very thread you linked to above. Brandon's thread. That link is posted by John W in that thread. Follow your link above ... follow the bread crumbs back to where you've already been ... emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 6:17 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/27/20 6:17 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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When I get repeating phrases or images it's usually in the Re-observation and has Mysery+Disgust written all over it and Desire for Deliverance to make it bloody stop! emoticon Yours migh be something else. 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/28/20 4:32 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/28/20 4:08 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Falling asleep again after early morning meditation, I heard the phrase “you will not marry Teresa Adams”. I understood it to be a portmanteau of St Teresa and Robert Adams, meaning I should not be wed either to ecstatic pain or dondualism.

In the last 24 hours I seem to have been in a mild dark night, which hasn’t happened for 2 months. Partly it’s a function of coronavirus fatigue returning and having to go back to bed. But there’s also been a hint of the thought “this shouldn’t be happening now I’m done”. I quickly realize that’s absurd, it’s not me that’s done and there’s nothing that shouldn’t be happening. I won’t be done until I’m dead because “I” is just an ongoing process and the only variable is the degree of objectification.

In mediation I’m becoming aware again of my aversion to equanimity. I don’t let myself enjoy it before finding fault with it. I find it “too calm”, like there’s something wrong with it or something missing or even that something bad will happen. I find myself bouncing back up to the higher jhanas or nanas on thoughts or energy spikes. It’s a physical habit due to my aversive conditioning, hardly conscious. So my current goal is consciously to remain for longer periods in equanimity and relax into the bounces.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 3:01 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 3:01 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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When you say EQ "too calm" , could you try next time and feel if it's "too boring" instead? 
I find it has this "status-quo" like quality where all is just ok and there is no need to do anything. Not even move out of the way of an incoming stampede. 
There is a good reason why EQ is not the final stage to attain to. 
I don't find there is any compassion, altruistic joy and loving-kindness in this EQ stage. 
EQ in and of itself doesn't care about anything. It's all just ok. Status-quo. 

I prefer to treat it like DN = acceptance and just be with it, let it do its thing and inevitably Vanish. 

I might also be totally wrong on this as on your level that EQ stage might require some other understanding of it. 
Any way sharing is caring emoticon 
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 6:21 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 6:21 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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 So my current goal is consciously to remain for longer periods in equanimity and relax into the bounces.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment here: this is not something someone who has ended the involuntary seeking treadmill on the spiritual quest would say. I'm not picking a fight with you, agnostic, but I am wondering. Maybe you've had a really deep, long-lasting experience of non-duality or not-self that has caused this "done-ness" to enter into your self-assessment. I'm genuinely curious about what you think.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 9:06 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 9:04 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Papa Che Dusko:
When you say EQ "too calm" , could you try next time and feel if it's "too boring" instead?

Hah you read my mind! Yeah I find EQ too boring. Good bullshit detector :-)
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 8:33 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/29/20 11:14 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Chris Marti:
 So my current goal is consciously to remain for longer periods in equanimity and relax into the bounces.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment here: this is not something someone who has ended the involuntary seeking treadmill on the spiritual quest would say. I'm not picking a fight with you, agnostic, but I am wondering. Maybe you've had a really deep, long-lasting experience of non-duality or not-self that has caused this "done-ness" to enter into your self-assessment. I'm genuinely curious about what you think.

Good question!

The "I'm done" was an error of thinking, because the big insight was that the sense of I is an illusion. The illusory I will never feel like it’s done, but in reality nothing “needs” to be done.

It definitely wasn't an experience of non-duality or not-self. In my view experience is dualistic (requires an assumed self), whereas this was the absence of the experience of self. It’s still there (or rather not there), so long as I don’t start looking for it!

So why am I still practicing and trying to spend longer in equanimity?

One reason is that I'm looking for a smoother ride. But I accept that the ride is just a function of my aversive conditioning and the bumps are manageable, so thinking it needs to be smoother is just a source of dissatisfaction. Probably the ride will get smoother over time, but that’s not something I need to force in order to get somewhere.

Probably the real reason is that being on DhO surrounded by more skillful practitioners, I feel the need to match their attainments (fruitions and jhana) in order to be able to defend non-duality better, otherwise I’m open to the criticism that I'm just copping out. It's clearly just vanity, because non-duality is reality as I see it and doesn't need any defense. I'm also curious about whether having clearer fruitions will reveal some insight that I've missed. And hard jhana just sounds cool.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 12:16 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 12:14 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Papa Che Dusko:
When you say EQ "too calm" , could you try next time and feel if it's "too boring" instead? 
I find it has this "status-quo" like quality where all is just ok and there is no need to do anything.

Thanks Papa Che, you really nailed it with this one! I thought there was something wrong with me for finding EQ boring, but having someone else point it out for me helped me to accept it. Now when I find myself getting dissatisfied in EQ I just note 'boring, boring, boring' and the feeling passes emoticon 
Thanks again,
agnostic
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 8:35 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 8:34 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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I was reading a post of shargrol about DN->SE and I realized that this recent DN is having a lot to do with the self-induced stress of self-diagnosis and fixating on paths and attainments. Without clear and repeatable fruitions it’s hard to know if I actually have SE. Maybe in my desire to believe I was making progress I just misdiagnosed a bunch of A&P type experiences as SE. The fact that I haven’t spent much time in EQ must be a red flag. The fact that kundalini is still so dominant must be another. Maybe depersonalization experiences were just psychological unfoldings. And maybe that whole non-dual metaphysical mind-fuck over the last few weeks was just a back-hand way of me trying to convince myself I’m done without saying “I’m done”. I feel stupid now, but opening up to this possibility seems to have shifted something inside, made me feel more human and vulnerable, and created a new opening into EQ. I’m just going to sit with that for now.
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 9:12 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 4/30/20 9:12 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
I was reading a post of shargrol about DN->SE and I realized that this recent DN is having a lot to do with the self-induced stress of self-diagnosis and fixating on paths and attainments. Without clear and repeatable fruitions it’s hard to know if I actually have SE. Maybe in my desire to believe I was making progress I just misdiagnosed a bunch of A&P type experiences as SE. The fact that I haven’t spent much time in EQ must be a red flag. The fact that kundalini is still so dominant must be another. Maybe depersonalization experiences were just psychological unfoldings. And maybe that whole non-dual metaphysical mind-fuck over the last few weeks was just a back-hand way of me trying to convince myself I’m done without saying “I’m done”. I feel stupid now, but opening up to this possibility seems to have shifted something inside, made me feel more human and vulnerable, and created a new opening into EQ. I’m just going to sit with that for now.


Glad to read this post. Really.
Thanks for setting a good example for the rest of us "seekers" by the honesty and questioning in this post.
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Lars, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 2:32 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 2:30 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Siavash:

Glad to read this post. Really.
Thanks for setting a good example for the rest of us "seekers" by the honesty and questioning in this post.

Agreed.  emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 2:46 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 2:46 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
I was reading a post of shargrol about DN->SE and I realized that this recent DN is having a lot to do with the self-induced stress of self-diagnosis and fixating on paths and attainments. Without clear and repeatable fruitions it’s hard to know if I actually have SE. Maybe in my desire to believe I was making progress I just misdiagnosed a bunch of A&P type experiences as SE. The fact that I haven’t spent much time in EQ must be a red flag. The fact that kundalini is still so dominant must be another. Maybe depersonalization experiences were just psychological unfoldings. And maybe that whole non-dual metaphysical mind-fuck over the last few weeks was just a back-hand way of me trying to convince myself I’m done without saying “I’m done”. I feel stupid now, but opening up to this possibility seems to have shifted something inside, made me feel more human and vulnerable, and created a new opening into EQ. I’m just going to sit with that for now.

Nice one. I 2nd what siavash said. Here is something I found from shargrol which all of us will find useful and a good DAILY reminder to have really (print it out and place it close to the cushion) emoticon 
"

Not enough honesty, not enough investigation, not enough acceptance. Meditation basically has three aspects: an honest experience of one's condition and balancing the effort/investigation and the relaxation/acceptance of that condition. 


Not enough honesty and it becomes fantasy/spiritual bypassing.

Not enough investigation and it becomes indulgent daydreaming.

Not enough acceptance and it becomes aversive manipulation"

 It also helps to see ALL Experience as equal. SE or Itch at the nose, when these are actually here they are here and liberating, and as soon they become a story (Aboutism) they become part of the not-so-liberating self-validating proliferation. 
I know this can sound strange to compare Stream Entry to the Itch on my head but really emoticon at the end that's all they are; momentary experiences. 

What does help is ; when in such state then Noting those self-validating thoughts and views about maps and practice and Label them. Like 1-10 sensations/mental states/feeling per second. There could be: Uncertainty, doubt, insecurity, disappointment, self-pitty, wishful thinking, scenario spinning ... and lock these in with the feeling tone and body sensation and you are back in the game; honesty, acceptance, investigation. emoticon 

Try focus on the daily practice as if you had never practiced before and tomorrow might never come. Be curious about today's practice. Today Only. 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 5:11 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 4:58 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Thanks for your kind words Siavash, Lars and Papa Che.

It's quite shocking to me how quickly I went from what seemed to me like an honest realization and acceptance of there being no one here and life happening by itself to positioning myself on here as some kind of mini-authority on something. I can see why self-diagnosis is ill-advised, it snowballs very easily. Even a few carefully placed "modest" and "wise" words of advice is enough to start positioning yourself as some kind of mini-expert.

I shouldn't bet that surprised, it's a classic narcissistic pattern - needing to be the best and if not the best then the worst, so long as I still get the attention. Sitting with that as well.

Thankfully none of this spiritual status-mongering is invested in my "real life", which still seems to be pretty good by my standards at least (I hope I'm not asking for trouble by saying that). I can see how things can get much more complicated if you have some kind of public spiritual presence. Yay for the ability to remain anonymous on the internet! Spiritual pride, watch that one ...

Meditation-wise, apart from watching the psychobabble, the main thing is this early equanimity recognition of the sukha-dukkha pairing. It seems I can't have one without the other, sukha in the form of pleasant afterglow from the strong piti bursts, dukkha in the form of facial pain also connected with the strong piti. I guess that's the point of equanimity, accepting you can't have one without the other and just being ok with that, watching them arise and pass.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:20 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:20 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
I was reading a post of shargrol about DN->SE and I realized that this recent DN is having a lot to do with the self-induced stress of self-diagnosis and fixating on paths and attainments. Without clear and repeatable fruitions it’s hard to know if I actually have SE. Maybe in my desire to believe I was making progress I just misdiagnosed a bunch of A&P type experiences as SE. The fact that I haven’t spent much time in EQ must be a red flag. The fact that kundalini is still so dominant must be another. Maybe depersonalization experiences were just psychological unfoldings. And maybe that whole non-dual metaphysical mind-fuck over the last few weeks was just a back-hand way of me trying to convince myself I’m done without saying “I’m done”. I feel stupid now, but opening up to this possibility seems to have shifted something inside, made me feel more human and vulnerable, and created a new opening into EQ. I’m just going to sit with that for now.
damn, i love you, agnostic.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:28 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:28 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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I love you too. Just be careful you don't fall for my narcissistic self-pity play!
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:30 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:30 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
I love you too. Just be careful you don't fall for my narcissistic self-pity play!
unless you get better at it, no danger there.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:31 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:31 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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I'm impressed, agnostic. Highest congrats, deepest sympathies. Seriously - I've been there, done that, been super embarrassed. It is HARD to come down from that. 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:35 AM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:41 AM
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Chris Marti:
I'm impressed, agnostic. Highest congrats, deepest sympathies. Seriously - I've been there, done that, been super embarrassed. It is HARD to come down from that. 

Thanks Chris. It's actually a weight off my shoulders.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 6:55 AM
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I would like to apologize to anyone whose practice I affected by pretending to be something I’m not.

I’m also sorry for acting in a conceited and hostile way (often thinly disguised as humor or expertise).

Please do me and everyone else a favor and call me out any time you see me doing any of this stuff again.

If it would help you, feel free to let me know how I upset you or affected your practice. You can post it on here or send me a message, as you prefer.
T, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 7:02 AM
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Even if it is only on a forum with your virtual friends and peers, it takes some courage to bear the underbelly like this. Bravo, sir. 

Regarding your offer of apology or whatever. For my part, I thoroughly enjoy our good-natured sparring about these things. I find it helps my practice to sit with your ideas, try to poke holes in them in our posts, etc. 

Thank you for setting a good example (mostly), regardless of what's actually occurring. 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 4:48 PM
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T:
Even if it is only on a forum with your virtual friends and peers, it takes some courage to bear the underbelly like this. Bravo, sir. 

Regarding your offer of apology or whatever. For my part, I thoroughly enjoy our good-natured sparring about these things. I find it helps my practice to sit with your ideas, try to poke holes in them in our posts, etc. 

Thank you for setting a good example (mostly), regardless of what's actually occurring. 

Thanks T.

I enjoyed our discussions as well, but I've got a much more reserved attitude towards such non-dual ideas/arguments now. I still think they probably point to the ultimate reality, but that can be intoxicating. Even if there is no ultimate meaning to anything or free will, 90% of the time I have to act like there is and short-circuiting that was just creating tension and suffering. I'm switching things around and going to spend 90% of my time on "mundane" practice again and just reserve 10% of my mental space for ultimate reality. I'll be interested to see how those proportions change over time if my practice progresses at all ...

Cheers
agnostic
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 7:51 PM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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I’ve been reading the compilation of shargrol’s posts which is a real goldmine. I realize that I’ve been using too much effort to try to keep the mind on the breath, which just creates tension. That’s probably the reason for the headache I’ve been experiencing, which lessens when I relax more and let the mind follow the breath by itself. It really works, I can’t believe it took me so long to figure it out! The difference is the change in attitude –  not getting annoyed when the mind wanders but accepting it and relaxing so that the mind comes back by itself. The process has a certain rhythm to it and feels like building a muscle memory. Most of the time I can only manage a few breaths unbroken, but even that is enough to deepen the concentration significantly.

I started using Kenneth Folk’s method of counting 10 breaths and noting any distractions. I kind of turned my nose up at it before because it sounded “too basic”, I thought I was after more important insights. But again it really works to dispel distractions efficiently, rather than letting the mind wander with them for ages.

One significant distraction I notice is thoughts about how I’m going to describe my experiences here on DhO. It’s like I want to describe the experience before I’ve given it a chance to really happen. It's due to vanity and greed. I read about other people’s experiences and think why don’t I have that, I want that. This creates a greedy mindset for having certain preconceived experiences, which is just a source of frustration and prevents the actual experience from unfolding. I’m noting that too.
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 9:25 PM
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One significant distraction I notice is thoughts about how I’m going to describe my experiences here on DhO. It’s like I want to describe the experience before I’ve given it a chance to really happen

A very good description for this narration in mind! I have it most times, on and off the cushion. It's not entirely new though, I had it before this practice too I think, since I used to record my dreams and some of my experiences. But it's a good mind virus. At least for me it has a benefit, and help with improving my English!

I don't know about Folk's method, but Leigh Brasington uses a counting method too which has gotten from Pa Auk sayadaw, and it was very helpful for me too. It's up to 8, not 10, which I think 8 works better for me than 10.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/1/20 10:00 PM
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Siavash:
One significant distraction I notice is thoughts about how I’m going to describe my experiences here on DhO. It’s like I want to describe the experience before I’ve given it a chance to really happen

A very good description for this narration in mind! I have it most times, on and off the cushion. It's not entirely new though, I had it before this practice too I think, since I used to record my dreams and some of my experiences. But it's a good mind virus. At least for me it has a benefit, and help with improving my English!

I don't know about Folk's method, but Leigh Brasington uses a counting method too which has gotten from Pa Auk sayadaw, and it was very helpful for me too. It's up to 8, not 10, which I think 8 works better for me than 10.

Richard Moss once told me that he would often catch himself in meditation sort of working up his experiences as they arose for presentation later in his teaching. He said it a little sheepishly. But it's sort of hard to imagine not doing something of that kind of rehearsal once in a while in our minds. We formulate and articulate to undertand and communicate our experiences, with an implied audience of people with a common language and experiences in the same neighborhood of reality; the mind does that; the mind is working on the stuff from the get-go and knows what it wants to do with the stuff. So let the mind do its work, and you do yours, which is to get free of identifying with the mind doing that work.

agnostic, quit giving yourself shit over this stuff, mate! That's what the rest of us are here for, to give you shit.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 5:44 AM
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It's good to know that I'm not the only one doing it! I don't feel bad about it, but it's a real distraction from keeping the mind on the breath. The fact that the mind thinks it knows what it wants to do with it is an extra layer of mental activity on top of the bare experience of breathing. I used to step back and let the story develop, which felt good, almost as if the story itself had become the meditation object. But that's definitely not keeping the mind on the breath any more, it's more discursive and the mind is less unified. I stopped identifying with the discursive mind as much, but concentration deepens much more quickly when I drop it altogether.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 5:59 AM
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agnostic:
It's good to know that I'm not the only one doing it! I don't feel bad about it, but it's a real distraction from keeping the mind on the breath. The fact that the mind thinks it knows what it wants to do with it is an extra layer of mental activity on top of the bare experience of breathing. I used to step back and let the story develop, which felt good, almost as if the story itself had become the meditation object. But that's definitely not keeping the mind on the breath any more, it's more discursive and the mind is less unified. I stopped identifying with the discursive mind as much, but concentration deepens much more quickly when I drop it altogether.

I think it helps to see yourself, in mediation at this point, as simply performing a Sisyphean task of interminable damnation, pushing a rock up a hill time after endless time, only to see it roll right back down to the bottom again. Reset. Le Bodhisattva Camus said, "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Why? Because he's got something to do to pass the time in hell, until all beings are saved. What's a little bit of mind blab, compared to the priceless gift of that rock? Body hauls the breath up to the top on the in-breath, fucking rock rolls all the way down on the outbreath. It keeps us off the streets, mate, where we might be a danger to ourselves or others.

damn, i love you. This arc of your through the last couple months will be studied like astronomers study the first pass of a new comet.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 6:34 AM
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I'm noticing that there is a critical point about a second after each distraction or thought arises, before "story mind" picks up the ball and starts running with it. That's the window of opportunity to relax and let the mind fall back onto the breath. I don't restart counting after that because it feels like a natural precursor to the  "jhana wobble" which Ajahn Brahm talks about. But I do restart counting once I've noticed that story mind has gotten going.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 6:51 AM
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Part of the problem is that each time the concentration deepens through an unbroken run of breaths, then the stories become more inviting because the mind is more unified and can get into the story better. If I can manage a run of just 10 breaths then the concentration deepens noticeably, piti-sukha starts coursing and then it's really easy to get into a nice story for 10 minutes and think I'm having a successful mediation just because the mind is a bit more concentrated than normal and I feel so good. So I'm trying to make 10 breaths the baseline and then extend it from there.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 7:04 AM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:


One significant distraction I notice is thoughts about how I’m going to describe my experiences here on DhO (note; planning thought and even imagining if you see the forum in your mind). It’s like I want to describe (note; planning thought) the experience before I’ve given it a chance to really happen (note; expectation, guilt, anticipation, unpleasant). It's due to vanity and greed (Note; judging thoughts, self-pity). I read about other people’s experiences and think why don’t I have that, I want that (Note; judging thoght, guilt, self-pity, unpleasant, desire, urge to get) . This creates a greedy mindset for having certain preconceived experiences, which is just a source of frustration and prevents the actual experience from unfolding. I’m noting that too (are you really? )

I 2nd Siavash and think its very normal for thoughts to pop out here and there about this or that, and yes it happens to me too and I treat them like the ITCH on my nose! emoticon 
You say it yourself above, that you failed to give it chance to really happen and yet YOU ARE NOTICING THAT VERY MIND STATE without really knowing it  emoticon  (I've marked my commentaries in Bold above)
I dont want to push on you a certain method but I think you need something tat really keeps you away from pending time inside the hindrances like "guit thinking, and self-pity thinking and feeling" and see them for what they are and move on.
You mentioned KF above and his counting method, well he has some other tools which could actually be of more benefit to you at this time.
But we are talking about your mind here and you have all the right to do with it as you please of course. 

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George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 7:25 AM
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Thanks Papa Che, that is some very accurate analysis/noting.

Actually at this pont it seems like the breath is working now for samatha. After about 10 breaths I start to get into the "beautiful breath" as Ajahn Brahm calls it and the counting falls away. I'm just going to enjoy that for a bit while I can!

But this whole discussion about DhO storytelling has been very helpful for me. I felt like it was my "guilty secret" and now it's out in the open I can laugh about it and it's lost its hold on me emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 7:35 AM
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Good man emoticon  
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 7:49 AM
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It's funny, after our interaction I found myself slipping into vipassana on some kind of interpersonal mind stratum on quite an objective basis. I was just watching feelings around "should" and "shouldn't" in relation to other people, thoughts around wanting to impress them or being afraid of disappointing them or annoying or upsetting them. It wasn't in relation to you or anyone else specifically, it was just watching the underlying mechanics at play in a clunky and transparent way. Thanks again!
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 7:55 AM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
Thanks Papa Che, that is some very accurate analysis/noting.

Actually at this pont it seems like the breath is working now for samatha. After about 10 breaths I start to get into the "beautiful breath" as Ajahn Brahm calls it and the counting falls away. I'm just going to enjoy that for a bit while I can!

But this whole discussion about DhO storytelling has been very helpful for me. I felt like it was my "guilty secret" and now it's out in the open I can laugh about it and it's lost its hold on me emoticon 
Papa Che taught me almost everything i know about learning vipassana language of noting, using that amazingly simple and effective technique of marking in bold the ways in which you are already noting in current practice.

Interesting that the "beautiful breath" is happening spontaneously for you now. That's what we in the siddha yoga dham used to call "auspicious." lol. (If all sentient beings are to be saved, then every fucking godawful step of the way is, of course, auspicious. Some of the steps are just so much less painful than others. Beautiful breath is close to as painless as it gets.)

Glad we outed you on your guilty secret. I think i missed what it was. Could you endure another round of humiliation and public shame and tell me, or at least refresh my memory? I mean, I missed it. I think you came out with it while I thought you were pissed at me and was lying low.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 8:25 AM
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Agnostic, we all harbor a desire to be special and have special experiences. That's the Quest mentality, the seeking mentality. It has to be ridden, tired out, captured, hogtied, and tamed. In a way, that's the whole path, right there. (You've seen the Ten Oxherding Pictures?) That takes a long time. Eventually, what that mentality truly is will be revealed. Maybe every time you can catch yourself in that thought process, take a brief pause and ponder it. What, and why, is it?
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 8:40 AM
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Chris Marti:
Agnostic, we all harbor a desire to be special and have special experiences. That's the Quest mentality, the seeking mentality. It has to be ridden, tired out, captured, hogtied, and tamed. In a way, that's the whole path, right there. (You've seen the Ten Oxherding Pictures?) That takes a long time. Eventually, what that mentality truly is will be revealed. Maybe every time you can catch yourself in that thought process, take a brief pause and ponder it. What, and why, is it?

Quit fucking with the guy, he's doing shamatha. He's got the beautiful fucking breath!
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 8:50 AM
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He can handle it. Just look at what he's been through the past few months!
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 8:57 AM
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Chris Marti:
He can handle it. Just look at what he's been through the past few months!
Well, yeah, clearly, the fucker's indestructible, beginning with that bulletproof ego. But he's got the beautiful breath, man! It's like he got R-and-R from Nam! Let him fuck the locals and drink until he pukes, apply, lather, rinse, repeat. He'll be under that heavy fire again soon enough. We don't want that combat fatigue to get worse. He's already started APOLOGIZING to people.

sorry for the caps, i know you HATE THAT shit.

but i know you can handle it. 

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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 9:02 AM
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Have you been drinking coffee again? I can see your raised hackle from out here in the midwest.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 10:09 AM
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i might have had a cup or two.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 11:36 AM
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Tim, the "guilty secret" was the desire to present my experience in a certain way to conform to an expected ideal of what should be happening in practice based on other people's experiences. I wasn't pissed with you at all, I learnt a lot from you prompting me to think about the story mind - thanks.

Chris, yes we all have a desire to be special but for a narcissist it is a much stronger need because it is compensating for feelings of shame and worthlessness. But it's ok, I can see it for what it is now. It's just a protection mechanism which has long outgrown its original purpose.

Actually, just having this conversation this morning in a mindful way, I feel like there is some rewiring going on in my social brain. For the narcissist mindset, every interaction is a minefield loaded with risks of self-abasement and opportunities for self-aggrandization. It’s powerful to be able to watch those emotions at play from a distance as it were, without identifying and getting involved so much.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 11:42 AM
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Chris, yes we all have a desire to be special but for a narcissist it is a much stronger need because it is compensating for feelings of shame and worthlessness. But it's ok, I can see it for what it is now. It's just a protection mechanism which has long outgrown its original purpose.

I think I get that. But what I was referring to is something different, and it applies to all yogis and meditators (even those who are narcissists). I was talking about the innate assumption that there is a specialness to the "I/me/mine" thing we all experience. That assumption is what has to be seen through - or as I said earlier, wrestled to the ground.

<Gotta go, before Tim catches me here again...>
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/2/20 1:56 PM
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Oh yes that special story, you're right. I feel like I might have exhausted mine, or at least a good chunk of it. I was going over some old threads last night and realized that it's the same story that's played out before. I think J C put it really well in this thread:

My theory is that thinking you're done is an essential step in the process because if you think you're done, and then you realize you're not, it helps you let go of your attachment to being enlightened and your identification as enlightened.

I came here looking to learn, but there was also a feeling that somehow my story must be different or more special, like I was going to be the "the one". I stopped learning because I ended up defending my sense of how special I was. Probably that's the real reason I came on - to confirm my sense of how special I must be - and I  wasn't learning anything very significant. The outcome of this last few weeks has been by far the greatest learning experience. It's nice that we can all learn from each other like this in a safe and accessible environment without having to go off and join monasteries!
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 9:40 AM
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Yesterday morning I was in EQ with a calm stable focus on the breath. In the afternoon I tried to focus on the breath again but couldn’t due to the usual painful energy in the third eye and brilliant mind which demanded my attention. Presumably this is A&P. I know it’s not about me being special, but it still feels special. After while I got tired of being transfixed by the brilliance and my energy crashed, so I lay down to rest and went through a mild DN.

DN/Reobs revolved around watching my thoughts to do with enlightenment. I never actually thought I was enlightened, I thought that enlightenment is the realization that the individual does not really exist (apart from the khandhas). But I certainly felt special about this realization, so maybe that’s effectively the same thing as a “premature claim to enlightenment”. I realize that thoughts about enlightenment are just escapism; the reality is that I’m still cycling and only just learning to stay in EQ. Not that there’s anything wrong with A&P or DN per se, but EQ is certainly a smoother ride so why avoid it by obsessing about enlightenment? It’s just a loaded word which I’ve been fantasizing about on and off for 25 years.

It’s funny how I wasn’t aware of the nanas at all during the last 6 months, whilst in the 6 months before that I had been very aware of them. Looking back it seems what I was probably still cycling, but the cycles were longer because I wasn’t aware of them. I was in an intellectual space trying to achieve some kind of Grand Unified Theory of Enlightenment. Now I’m out of that it feels like coming back to being human again and processing emotions and psychological mind strata. I feel much more vulnerable right now and my emotions are tender and immediate.

In the evening I expected to be back in EQ, but it was A&P again. I couldn’t settle it, so I went to bed and in the early morning awoke from a disturbing dream (next post) which seemed to mark the DN. Once I processed the dream I was back in EQ. Instead of grasping after EQ as somewhere to get to, I feel that it’s more helpful to see EQ as the reward for processing my DN stuff.

Here’s a trick I’ve learnt to avoid getting lost in “reporting mind” if the thoughts are too compelling: write them down as you go so you can avoid trying to warehouse them while you meditate. It’s better to spend 2 minutes writing the thought down and then 8 minutes meditating thought-free, than 10 minutes meditating with the thought still circling around in your mind.

I was struggling to string together more than 2 or 3 breaths without the mind wandering and I discovered a better way than trying to count to 10 and restarting the whole time and getting frustrated. JUST SEE IF YOU CAN MAKE IT TO THE END OF THE CURRENT BREATH WITHOUT GETTING DISTRACTED. That’s a much more attainable goal! And once you’ve done that, then try to make it to the end the next breath. And the next one. The beauty of this method is you’re not constantly trying to decide whether to restart counting when distractions arise, you just automatically come back to the current breath. And because you’re not trying to keep count and worried about making it to 10, you are free to really appreciate the unique quality of each and every breath.

This method removes the performance anxiety associated with trying to make it to 10, because you only have to make it to the end of the current breath and as soon as you notice you are distracted then you are right back on track again, trying to make it to the end of the current breath. With this method I find that a distracting thought might start to emerge and I think “let me make it to the end of the current breath before giving this thought my attention”. What seems to happen then is that the thought somehow gets processed without fully coming into awareness. And then when I get to the end of the breath I’m more relaxed and it’s easier to say “well I got this far why not see if I can make it to the end of the next breath?” rather than thinking “I’m only on 3 and I’ve got 7 more to go, how long before I lose it?”.

The current breath method also allows you to relax more in the gaps between the breaths, which can get really long and peaceful. Then it becomes “can I make it to the end of the pause without getting distracted?” A lot of the progressive relaxation seems to happen after the outbreath and before the next inbreath. With the 10 breath method I worry about losing count and try to keep the number in mind and end up starting the next breath early in order to keep count. Also, as the concentration deepens, there can be a lot of variation in the breathing due to the energetic shifts and releases. The current breath method really allows you to let those unfold according to their own natural rhythm, whereas the 10 breath method give rise to anxiety about losing count which disturbs the rhythm.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 9:49 AM
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Today's Dream
I’m a junior reporter for the Times in the 70s interviewing an alcoholic bully who is accused of abusing his niece and 2 nephews who live with him after something happened to their parents. He is very controlling and makes us sit in different parts of the room away from him to ask questions. Often he has his back to us. His bottles of alcohol are arranged very neatly and spaced apart. He lives in a sparse modern apartment at the top of a skyscraper which I looks like it’s in Manhattan but is actually Charlotte NC, so he informs us. He is single and a thoroughly unpleasant man, who is not ashamed of what he is doing but whose only concern is to avoid being convicted by the authorities he looks down upon. I wake up feeling disturbed and wonder if he is me or my father, but he reminds me more of my grandfather, who was an alcoholic but not an abuser so far as I know (although there was a history of abuse in my grandmother’s family). Probably he is just a creation of my mind representing my worst fears about myself.

After waking up, processing the dream and meditating to EQ, I go back to bed and have a very restful sleep and a nice dream where I am talking with my sister and guess that she is pregnant.

Yesterday's Dream
I had a familiar dream about being back in my old work environment, where I was very messed up. Usually I feel stuck in these dreams and threatened by the people/environment, and I wake up with a feeling of dread in my stomach because haven’t moved on from that time in my life. In this dream the people seemed less threatening and more human, I felt some genuine concern and even affection for them. The environment felt more neutral and whilst I still felt a little unpleasant on waking up, I feel that something has “moved on” a bit in my subconscious. I feel like it’s connected with dropping my “front” here on DhO, because I had to maintain a massive front to survive in that work environment.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 10:00 AM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
Yesterday morning I was in EQ with a calm stable focus on the breath. In the afternoon I tried to focus on the breath again but couldn’t due to the usual painful energy in the third eye and brilliant mind which demanded my attention. Presumably this is A&P. I know it’s not about me being special, but it still feels special. After while I got tired of being transfixed by the brilliance and my energy crashed, so I lay down to rest and went through a mild DN.

DN/Reobs revolved around watching my thoughts to do with enlightenment. I never actually thought I was enlightened, I thought that enlightenment is the realization that the individual does not really exist (apart from the khandhas). But I certainly felt special about this realization, so maybe that’s effectively the same thing as a “premature claim to enlightenment”. I realize that thoughts about enlightenment are just escapism; the reality is that I’m still cycling and only just learning to stay in EQ. Not that there’s anything wrong with A&P or DN per se, but EQ is certainly a smoother ride so why avoid it by obsessing about enlightenment? It’s just a loaded word which I’ve been fantasizing about on and off for 25 years.

It’s funny how I wasn’t aware of the nanas at all during the last 6 months, whilst in the 6 months before that I had been very aware of them. Looking back it seems what I was probably still cycling, but the cycles were longer because I wasn’t aware of them. I was in an intellectual space trying to achieve some kind of Grand Unified Theory of Enlightenment. Now I’m out of that it feels like coming back to being human again and processing emotions and psychological mind strata. I feel much more vulnerable right now and my emotions are tender and immediate.

In the evening I expected to be back in EQ, but it was A&P again. I couldn’t settle it, so I went to bed and in the early morning awoke from a disturbing dream (next post) which seemed to mark the DN. Once I processed the dream I was back in EQ. Instead of grasping after EQ as somewhere to get to, I feel that it’s more helpful to see EQ as the reward for processing my DN stuff.

Here’s a trick I’ve learnt to avoid getting lost in “reporting mind” if the thoughts are too compelling: write them down as you go so you can avoid trying to warehouse them while you meditate. It’s better to spend 2 minutes writing the thought down and then 8 minutes meditating thought-free, than 10 minutes meditating with the thought still circling around in your mind.

I was struggling to string together more than 2 or 3 breaths without the mind wandering and I discovered a better way than trying to count to 10 and restarting the whole time and getting frustrated. JUST SEE IF YOU CAN MAKE IT TO THE END OF THE CURRENT BREATH WITHOUT GETTING DISTRACTED. That’s a much more attainable goal! And once you’ve done that, then try to make it to the end the next breath. And the next one. The beauty of this method is you’re not constantly trying to decide whether to restart counting when distractions arise, you just automatically come back to the current breath. And because you’re not trying to keep count and worried about making it to 10, you are free to really appreciate the unique quality of each and every breath.

This method removes the performance anxiety associated with trying to make it to 10, because you only have to make it to the end of the current breath and as soon as you notice you are distracted then you are right back on track again, trying to make it to the end of the current breath. With this method I find that a distracting thought might start to emerge and I think “let me make it to the end of the current breath before giving this thought my attention”. What seems to happen then is that the thought somehow gets processed without fully coming into awareness. And then when I get to the end of the breath I’m more relaxed and it’s easier to say “well I got this far why not see if I can make it to the end of the next breath?” rather than thinking “I’m only on 3 and I’ve got 7 more to go, how long before I lose it?”.

The current breath method also allows you to relax more in the gaps between the breaths, which can get really long and peaceful. Then it becomes “can I make it to the end of the pause without getting distracted?” A lot of the progressive relaxation seems to happen after the outbreath and before the next inbreath. With the 10 breath method I worry about losing count and try to keep the number in mind and end up starting the next breath early in order to keep count. Also, as the concentration deepens, there can be a lot of variation in the breathing due to the energetic shifts and releases. The current breath method really allows you to let those unfold according to their own natural rhythm, whereas the 10 breath method give rise to anxiety about losing count which disturbs the rhythm.

"JUST SEE IF YOU CAN MAKE IT TO THE END OF THE CURRENT BREATH WITHOUT GETTING DISTRACTED. " --- The One
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 10:04 AM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Chris Marti:
Chris, yes we all have a desire to be special but for a narcissist it is a much stronger need because it is compensating for feelings of shame and worthlessness. But it's ok, I can see it for what it is now. It's just a protection mechanism which has long outgrown its original purpose.

I think I get that. But what I was referring to is something different, and it applies to all yogis and meditators (even those who are narcissists). I was talking about the innate assumption that there is a specialness to the "I/me/mine" thing we all experience. That assumption is what has to be seen through - or as I said earlier, wrestled to the ground.

<Gotta go, before Tim catches me here again...>

"JUST SEE IF YOU CAN MAKE IT TO THE END OF THE CURRENT BREATH WITHOUT GETTING DISTRACTED." --- The One
Gregor, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 10:07 AM
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Hey Agnostic, 

I just saw this and skipped through it, you are very reflected and it's a lot of fun following your journey. Thanks a lot for the help and the good read!(:
All the best! 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 10:38 AM
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Wow, I seem to have missed a lot happening on this forum lately. Great development, agnostic! Premature claims of attainment - or of non-attainment in your case - is a very human thing, but lots of people are unwilling to see through it, and if they eventually do, many are too embarrassed to admit to it. Being able to handle this kind of deflating of an air castle is tough for anyone, and you are dealing with it very gracefully and learning from the experience. I think that is much more impressive than a fast ride. 

You haven't affected my practice negatively in any way. Your helping me through a fear reaction was real. The discussions about attainments and no self and so forth helped me to see some things I need to work with. I hope and believe that the future holds a more thorough relief for you, with much less tension and pain, and I hope I'll get to follow it when it happens.

A&P experiences can seem like The Shit indeed. I seem to be going through a set of strong A&P:s now, and Jeeze, do they feel like utter miracles. I can relate to basically everything you have written about feeling special or non-special too, including dictating reports while in the midst of meditating (I'm working hard to let go of that). 

One good thing in this is that the rest of us seekers get to continuosly enjoy your company in the seeking. I like that, because you are good company. 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 3:56 PM
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Thanks for your kind words Linda. I like following your journey too and have more appreciation now for your gentle style.

It seems like my intellect decided it had THE ANSWER because it lost patience with the process that was still going on in my body/mind. Who knows whether that process has an end or not, but no amount of theorizing is going to make it go away (even if it's not ultimately "real").

For anyone else who is reading and might be wondering if they are in a similar situation, if you are honest with yourself you know if you are still suffering. It's scary thinking about opening up about it, but as you can see people are supportive and you will feel much better afterwards when you get back in touch with what's really going on.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 4:35 PM
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agnostic:

For anyone else who is reading and might be wondering if they are in a similar situation, if you are honest with yourself you know if you are still suffering. It's scary thinking about opening up about it, but as you can see people are supportive and you will feel much better afterwards when you get back in touch with what's really going on.

I think it is worthwhile to put this by Daniel Ingram, "The Isolation of Blowing It" up again, for "anyone else. . ."

For all of us, kids. Agnostic is different only in his scathing-self-abusive honesty. Most of us just let the big fart rip and then hope the stench goes away fast.

The Isolation of Blowing it":

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4462226
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/3/20 8:53 PM
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Another thing I just had to re-learn: it's normal for the attention to get more diffuse in DN. I was getting frustrated about not being able to focus well and eventually I remembered - that's the way it's supposed to be. Once I relaxed and accepted that the focus is a bit off - stopped resisting it - then I found I was back on the breath fine and quickly moving towards EQ again.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 2:27 AM
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Dissolution can have an a EQ feel to it when there is acceptance there. That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok". 

If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush. 

But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above emoticon 
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 2:31 AM
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Papa Che Dusko:
Dissolution can have an a EQ feel to it when there is acceptance there. That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok". 

If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush. 

But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above emoticon 

I'm in Re-Observation and agnostic is nowehere in sight, upstream or downstream.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 4:55 AM
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Papa Che, you're reading my mind again!

I seem to be more broadly in EQ now and cycling through fractal cycles EQ.A&P->EQ.DN rather than top level A&P->DN, which is easier and faster. Before I was in A&P/DN for hours at a time on/off the cusion, whereas these fractal cycles are a few minutes each on the cushion. The cycles are triggered by energy/piti bursts, which I relax into and watch integrating through my body in pressure waves. There is some pain associated with the feeling of the body being “worked on”, although it feels very therapeutic and healing.

I had dream about being critical of people here on DhO and upsetting them through aggressive practice suggestions. I woke up feeling slightly unpleasant and it was very clear to me how criticism is just a subtle form of anger.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 5:14 AM
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Papa Che Dusko:
Dissolution can have an a EQ feel to it when there is acceptance there. That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok". 

If you can try and catch that "urge" that's saying "I'm in EQ now, I'm ok now" get into it some more. Note that urge, that yearning to get to EQ. Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush. 

But then again you just might be in EQ stage and you can ignore the above emoticon 

I forgot to say thanks - that's a really nice and helpful way to describe the process.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 6:54 AM
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I admit it's not easy to navigate through all this as the self-validation process is very normal for us. 

It is so easy to slip into it especially when those self-validating thoughts/perceptions are about this practice. 

Part of me is practicing noting while another part is anticipating and desiring attainment of sorts emoticon 

One can either choke this one with full on noting 1-10 sensations a second in case of not much clarity or if there is clarity to it have a more laid back attitude and keep noticing that sense of sub-self desiring a certain attainment and watch it to death emoticon 

I like how Shinzen talks about changing gears depending on the terrain. This really asks for being grownup and really look. Do I want to wallow in self pity or do I want to do insight practice? What is this terrain? Is it clear? Is it muddy? Is it lovely? Is it foggy? ... adjusting the gears accordingly. 

sorry for unleashing this train of thoughts. I might be telling this to myself really emoticon 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 9:20 AM
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Don't worry, telling it to yourself telling it to me is as good for me as it is for you. emoticon 

Yeah I think it's very common (for me at least) to think a lot about your practice as you are practicing. It can feel like practice itself. It's not if you are not aware of it, but once you become aware of it (as you clearly are) then it's grist for the mill. I think over time we can start to take our practice so seriously that it takes over a big part of the identity we had before. Untangling that is really important (talking to myself here as well).

As I was trying to fall back asleep, my mind felt clear but there was some tension in my body. I realized it was anxiety over a submerged thought that someone might be competing with or judging my practice (which I don’t actually think you are). As soon as I became aware of that thought, the anxiety vanished and was replaced by a warm feeling of gratitude for having someone who cares about and is supporting my practice. emoticon 

Oh yeah, of course you know, anticipating or desiring attainment is the one thing guaranteed to make sure it doesn't happen. I do that all the time too. We just have to find that nice place in our practice where we are happy doing it for its own sake. As a wise man once said to me:

That wide peripheral attention and that chilled out feel, like it's all "ok" ... Try and find a body sensation associated with it, some feeling tone. Get really into.
Try not to rush. 

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 10:12 AM
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No competition on this side mate. 

Im in a spot where practice is realization and realization is practice. 

Within this vast ocean of samsara only that raft is really worth holding onto.

Allthough,
I will keep my distance if that is the feeling you get when engaging with me. Competition is of No interest to me. Pass.

emoticon 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/4/20 1:00 PM
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No competition at all, we're good. emoticon

I was just being honest about some of the thoughts and feelings that come up. It's more a function of my narcissistic personality than anything to do with you.

Please don't keep your distance, I really appreciate your help. emoticon 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/5/20 6:44 AM
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Spent most of yesterday in EQ then sat through another DN in the evening. It was a powerful one, a lot of painful energy flowing down from the face and then the neck cricking and the spine re-aligning. Nothing personal about it though, it's happening now whether I like it or not and the only thing I can do is get out of the way and let it happen, otherwise it's just attempts at control and resistance prolonging what has to happen. At a certain point I felt like Lieutenant Dan in the storm - is this all you got?  The energy/pain was so strong that I couldn't focus on anything else so I was just genuinely curious how strong it could get. That kind of marked the peak and then I was subsiding into early EQ and tired to bed.

I'm consciously meditating more at night now, to release subconscious material. There are three main techniques. 1) Letting myself fall asleep meditating and watching the ego stream dissolve. 2) Lying on my back in bed and watching myself fall asleep, which often generates anxiety or depersonalization as ego dissolves, so just getting more comfortable with that process. 3) Waking up during the night every 2-3 hours (I drink water before sleeping to wake me up for a pee) to write down dreams and meditate for a bit before falling asleep again. The ego anxiety is less then and it’s more about letting the “clear natural light” of the mind shine through and watching myself asleep.

The thing which pulls me out of EQ most is the urge to find something to do with it. Like wow this feels so good I should write a post or find a post to respond to. There is still some anxiety about losing it so I want to try to try to capture it in some way, which of course is what makes me lose it. As it becomes more baseline it will be easier to enjoy it for what it is.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/5/20 3:38 PM
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I had some slightly manic energy this morning and then some dissatisfaction and irritation, but still felt equanimous underneath, so seems like EQ.A&P and EQ.DN. Sat after lunch in a powerful EQ.DN. Piti/pain was probably stronger than yesterday’s top-level DN but I actually felt good about being worked over, like getting a very strong massage. There was none of that “oh I can’t wait for this to end and get to EQ”, it was more like “keep going, I’ve got as long as you need”.

I had some more thoughts about how attention varies through the nanas/vipassana jhanas, which are close to MCTB but with a slightly different spin:

- Pre-A&P/VJ1 it feels like you need to use effort to put the mind onto the object.

- In A&P/VJ2 the object becomes so exciting that you lose track of the mind.

- In DN/VJ3  the object feels like it is disappearing and the focus has gone. What is actually happening is that the center of attention has gone from being outside the object to inside the object, hence it can no longer be seen with an external perspective.

- In EQ/VJ4 it feels like the object is filling or pervading the mind, which becomes saturated or absorbed in the object. The object and the mind have fused.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 6:47 AM
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I was back in A&P yesterday evening, waking from sad dreams in DN and then meditating into EQ again. It’s becoming a familiar cycle.

I got a new psychological perspective on cycling and control:

- In A&P one feels in control of one’s experience, producing it through selective use of attention. Control seems to be working and experience is buzzy and exciting.

- The flipside of control is exposed in DN. Experience loses its luster and we feel like we are to blame for making things bad.

- Eventually we realize that the problem is not experience itself, it is the assumption of control which causes the cycle of positive and negative feelings towards sense objects. We realize that there is in fact no controlling entity, sense objects are just arising and passing by themselves. We surrender the illusion of control and are now content to watch pleasant and unpleasant objects arise and pass, without feelings of elation and despair. Equanimity reigns and experience is fine just the way it is.

One can observe the same cycle play out over a lifetime. As a child we are faced with a confusing world over which we have limited control. Over time we learn to have some degree of control over the world and feel like masters of our own destiny to a certain extent. When things go well we feel great and reward ourselves. When things go bad we feel bad and punish ourselves. Life being what it is, eventually enough bad things happen that are beyond our control and we get depressed, realizing that we can never have enough control over our lives to make our experience satisfactory enough. If we are lucky we see this and surrender the illusion of control and then life is ok whatever happens, which will increasingly include the inevitabilities of aging, disease and death.

Meditating in EQ this morning and watching experience get increasingly grainy, I felt feel like I finally understood the connection between attention and dependent origination. I understood that dependent origination was the process by which one sense object “gives rise” to another. I understood that the process of placing attention on one object after another was also a causal chain which “just happens” (i.e. there is no homunculus deciding to direct attention). But I didn’t realize that they are the same thing, because I thought that DO was creating objects whereas attention was selecting from among pre-existing objects. But no, DO is that very same process of selecting one object after another from the sense field of all possible objects (including ideas) of which once could be aware at any point in time. The process of selection is what creates the mind stream and the narrative of being an individual.

Anyone care to critique?

The analogy which came to mind is going shopping in a supermarket, where the products are the sense objects (including ideas) and the shopping cart is the mind. As we go through the supermarket, we are driven to select certain products and reject others based on our preferences and aversions. Selecting a product is like placing our attention on a sense object. When we put it in the cart then it becomes part of our memory. The contents of the cart define our identity, everything that we have experienced up to that point in time. The contents of the cart could equally well be defined by what we have selected or what we have rejected. By selecting certain products (focusing our attention) we automatically avoid a lot of the other stuff in the vicinity. By avoiding certain products we are driven towards others (“denial” or “escapism”). In this analogy, nibbana would be wheeling the cart through the store and scanning every product but neither selecting nor rejecting anything, ending up at the checkout with a completely empty cart.

I felt the mind inclining towards cessation a couple of times, but it doesn't seem ready to let go yet.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 6:53 AM
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RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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DO is that very same process of selecting one object after another from the sense field of all possible objects (including ideas) of which once could be aware at any point in time. The process of selection is what creates the mind stream and the narrative of being an individual.

So experience the result of a selection process? I think I need to hear more about your theory.

Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:05 AM
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emoticon
But I didn’t realize that [DO and attention] are the same thing
well, they're not.

love, tim
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:06 AM
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I have a question too (No answer on my side):

Is there such a things as mind separate from sense objects?
If we remove all sense objects, do we still have something called mind?
What about attention?
Is attention separate from sense objects?
If we remove all sense objects, do we still have something as attention?

Thanks.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:16 AM
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Siavash, in my experience there is no consciousness (or attention) without both a subject and an object.
T, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:19 AM
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Siavash:
I have a question too (No answer on my side):

Is there such a things as mind separate from sense objects?
If we remove all sense objects, do we still have something called mind?
What about attention?
Is attention separate from sense objects?
If we remove all sense objects, do we still have something as attention?

Thanks.
ooh! Great questions. I've been trying to figure this out myself! 

I hope someone whose experience would give them an inclination will chime in with an answer. 

From my investigations so far: No, there is no such thing as mind separate from sense objects in experience. It can't be shown, anyway. When not perceiving any of the six sense objects a'tall, one is....? dead? in cessation? Parinibbana? Attention is a feature of awareness/mind, so... I don't know. ha! My investigation continues. 

The second two questions are super interesting, also!
T, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:20 AM
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Chris Marti:
Siavash, in my experience there is no consciousness (or attention) without both a subject and an object.


so succint. 
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:22 AM
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Chris Marti:
Siavash, in my experience there is no consciousness (or attention) without both a subject and an object.


Thanks Chris. With my limited experience, I think that's my understanding too, that attention is not separate from sense objects.

But,
What you mean with subject and object?
If we have a sense object, like a sensation in body, or the mental image of that sensation, or a mental talk, if we take this as a sense object, what is the subject here?
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:29 AM
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T:
Chris Marti:
Siavash, in my experience there is no consciousness (or attention) without both a subject and an object.


so succint. 
Chris, what about Franklin Merrell-Wolff and his bone-breaking tome on The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object? You said you read it as a young geek.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:40 AM
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If we have a sense object, like a sensation in body, or the mental image of that sensation, or a mental talk, if we take this as a sense object, what is the subject here?

Siavash, I'll answer your question with a question: what is it that's always the subject? What is that thing that all of our experience is processed through?

Tim, I certainly did read that book, but poor Franklin Merrill-Wolff didn't get the process of perception part right. Neat book, though.

Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:40 AM
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Tim, I certainly did read that book, but poor Franklin Merrill-Wolff . . .
I must respectfully inform you, beloved friend, that them's fightin words.

didn't get the process of perception part right. Neat book, though.
By "get[ting] the process of perception right", do you mean philosophically, as in the language game of his book, or are you talking about his process of perception as read between the lines of his book, or in reports of his experience in the book?

love, tim
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:45 AM
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By "get the process of perception right", do you mean philosophically, as in the language game of his book, or are you talking about his process of perception as read between the lines of his book, or in reports of his experience in the book?

I mean dependent origination - how the mind processes incoming sensory information. He didn't seem to have investigated that in great depth. He was speaking from another, different set of realizations, which can be valid in and of themselves.

I'm not picking a fight. Please stand down.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:49 AM
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Chris Marti:
By "get the process of perception right", do you mean philosophically, as in the language game of his book, or are you talking about his process of perception as read between the lines of his book, or in reports of his experience in the book?

I mean dependent origination - how the mind processes incoming sensory information. He didn't seem to have investigated that in great depth. He was speaking from another, different set of realizations, which can be valid in and of themselves.

I'm not picking a fight. Please stand down.
Sometimes the fight picks us.

Thank you for that "please."
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:50 AM
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Siavash, I'll answer your question with a question: what is it that's always the subject? What is that thing that all of our experience is processed through?

On my part..., well I don't know.
There is this sensation in my finger, that I feel it, and see image of my hand, and have mental image of that sensation in the mind including mental images of this space and the location of sensation, but how that feeling, seeing, knowing happens, I don't know. How I see this mental image of my hand, does it know itself, or something perceives it or not, I don't know.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:51 AM
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I try to be polite - at least as much as I can. I used the "stand down" language on purpose. You know... military jargon and stuff.
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:52 AM
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There is this sensation in my finger, that I feel it, and see image of my hand, and have mental image of that sensation in the mind including mental images of this space and the location of sensation, but how that feeling, seeing, knowing happens, I don't know. How I see this mental image of my hand, does it know itself, or something perceives it or not, I don't know.

This is perfect!
T, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:54 AM
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Siavash:
Chris Marti:
Siavash, in my experience there is no consciousness (or attention) without both a subject and an object.


Thanks Chris. With my limited experience, I think that's my understanding too, that attention is not separate from sense objects.

But,
What you mean with subject and object?
If we have a sense object, like a sensation in body, or the mental image of that sensation, or a mental talk, if we take this as a sense object, what is the subject here?
The one taking the object
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:57 AM
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emoticon
yeah, i know, i almost used some military jargon too. With all due respect, if you know what I mean, Sir.
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:57 AM
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The one taking the object

Thanks T,
I refer to my above post, that I explained how I don't know what is that thing that takes the object, or is there any taking in the first place or not.
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Siavash:
The one taking the object

Thanks T,
I refer to my above post, that I explained how I don't know what is that thing that takes the object, or is there any taking in the first place or not.

I completely understand what you're saying about that. Sorry, I should have been more thorough - the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object, as far as I can tell. The subject is an assumption - awareness consists of the senses doing their thing. Without either - neither happen and therefore neither "exist." Without senses there is no awareness; without awareness there is no sense of assumed subject; without assumed subject, there is no you. Only, there never was a you in the first place - there was only the senses acting as awareness taken to be a subject perceiving objects - as opposed to all sensations sensing. edit--> and nothing more.

In my experience and understanding, sir. I know very little. 
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 8:15 AM
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If I understand correctly what you are saying, then:

the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object
This above things, is only a mental image, or a set of mental images, forming the space, direction, size, speed and etc.

consists
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

doing their thing
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

happen
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

"exist."
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).


Thanks.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 8:18 AM
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I thought there can still be Awareness even if all senses vanish like in Samatha Jhana. 

I might be totally off on this as I never managed to pass 5th Jhana (back in 2009). 

One thing seems certain (seems is a key word here) for Awareness to be there must be Consciousness. Or maybe these are one and the same. 

Matters little. Insight will Shmack when ready. 

Thinking, thinking, thinking, scenario spinning, itching, itching .... 
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Siavash:
If I understand correctly what you are saying, then:

the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object
This above things, is only a mental image, or a set of mental images, forming the space, direction, size, speed and etc.

consists
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

doing their thing
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

happen
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

"exist."
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).


Thanks.
I think so. All sensations. Bupkis. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 8:19 AM
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Siavash:
If I understand correctly what you are saying, then:

the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object
This above things, is only a mental image, or a set of mental images, forming the space, direction, size, speed and etc.

consists
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

doing their thing
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

happen
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

"exist."
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).


Thanks.

Nice one emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko:
I thought there can still be Awareness even if all senses vanish like in Samatha Jhana. 

I might be totally off on this as I never managed to pass 5th Jhana (back in 2009). 

One thing seems certain (seems is a key word here) for Awareness to be there must be Consciousness. Or maybe these are one and the same. 

Matters little. Insight will Shmack when ready. 

Thinking, thinking, thinking, scenario spinning, itching, itching .... 
I don't know shit, PCD. I'm just highlighting my understanding of it, which is clearly super limited to... this mind over here. 

In jhana awareness is happening, at least until it isn't. Right?

Once it's not, is there much difference between the likely experience of being dead, totally unconscious, or the deepest darkest sleep you've ever had?

I don't have any idea. My guess is there's little difference. The problem is that my very limited experience of this body and limited access to... big mind or whatever...tells me I've never been dead yet. I have been in super deep sleep and knocked unconscious. The only part that sucked about the latter is coming to and having a very sore face/head, whatever. Being without those sensations was totally fine (I think) since "I" didn't know it. 
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Papa Che Dusko:
Siavash:
If I understand correctly what you are saying, then:

the subject is the assumed point of the "viewer" perceiving the thing taken as the object
This above things, is only a mental image, or a set of mental images, forming the space, direction, size, speed and etc.

consists
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

doing their thing
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

happen
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).

"exist."
Another set of mental images (and or mental talks and or mental bodily sensations).


Thanks.

Nice one emoticon 
I think I'm lost on the subtext here.
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 8:59 AM
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I think I'm lost on the subtext here.

Can you clarify a little more?
I didn't get that it was about my post or Papa Che's post.


-- Sorry agnostic for kidnapping your log.
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Siavash:
I think I'm lost on the subtext here.

Can you clarify a little more?
I didn't get that it was about my post or Papa Che's post.


-- Sorry agnostic for kidnapping your log.
Both? That's what I'm lost about. I wasn't sure if you were trying to point something out to me that I'm missing in your reply. Then I had no idea what Papa Che meant but it seemed like you were on to something in his mind. Which means I'm missing something and lost. 

edit: the idea that it's all sensations (including mental activity/thoughts) is what I was getting at and you seem to have underscored. Maybe I'm not lost...? 
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 9:22 AM
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I don't know what was in Papa Che's mind emoticon
But I think you get my point. I just meant that the sense of me (subject) standing here watching a tree (sense object) over there, is just a set of sensations similar to the image of that tree. Only that, the image of the tree seems to be (or coming from) outside, but the image of me looking at tree is (or coming from) inside, and that the concepts that we have of these, like inside/outside/seeing/coming/etc, are also some similar images that are forming such concepts.
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nice
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 9:35 AM
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Chris Marti:
DO is that very same process of selecting one object after another from the sense field of all possible objects (including ideas) of which once could be aware at any point in time. The process of selection is what creates the mind stream and the narrative of being an individual.

So experience the result of a selection process? I think I need to hear more about your theory.


Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make a new theory, I'm trying to understand DO as it relates to the sense that I have of moving my attention around to create the stream of experience which I conventionally think of as "being me". Maybe selecting is the wrong word, I don't mean that there is someone doing the selecting. I probably should have used "clinging", although again that doesn’t mean there is someone doing the clinging. Let’s say attention is on a particular object, that object is felt as the object of “my experience” (clinging). That object then leads to the next object via DO. Eg the object is a rumble in the tummy which then leads to the next object which is the thought “what shall I have for breakfast?”

Actually “attention” is just a proxy for what’s going on. DO is just one thing being a condition for another, no self implied. There’s no one paying attention and there’s no attention without an object, there’s just objects arising in succession according to DO. The clinging (“this is my experience”) is what sustains the whole process. No clinging, nibbana, just objects arising and passing without the unsatisfactory sense that this is “my experience".

Even in formless jhanas there are objects (space, consciousness, nothingness, even 8th jhana seems to be something), although I’ve only had shallow experience of these.

Thanks for the inputs and discussions everyone. Sorry for the slow response time, I'm in the middle of home schooling!
T, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 9:47 AM
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Siavash:
I don't know what was in Papa Che's mind emoticon
But I think you get my point. I just meant that the sense of me (subject) standing here watching a tree (sense object) over there, is just a set of sensations similar to the image of that tree. Only that, the image of the tree seems to be (or coming from) outside, but the image of me looking at tree is (or coming from) inside, and that the concepts that we have of these, like inside/outside/seeing/coming/etc, are also some similar images that are forming such concepts.
Yea!


Or it least it seems that way to me. 


Finding what's inside or outside is very difficult. Perhaps it's all actually in the same place.  
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 8:11 PM
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agnostic:
Chris Marti:
DO is that very same process of selecting one object after another from the sense field of all possible objects (including ideas) of which once could be aware at any point in time. The process of selection is what creates the mind stream and the narrative of being an individual.

So experience the result of a selection process? I think I need to hear more about your theory.


Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make a new theory, I'm trying to understand DO as it relates to the sense that I have of moving my attention around to create the stream of experience which I conventionally think of as "being me". 
In light of anatta, who is "moving the attention around"? I'm not word-quibbling no self language here, because i think you're dead wrong on this and that attention is something other than any of its contents, any of what may seem to be its manipulable or movable or directable elements. Have you never experienced the attention actually and spontaneously moving as if on its own? Or even counter-intuitively, or against your intention? There is something more than a tool going on here, user or no user.

Actually “attention” is just a proxy for what’s going on. DO is just one thing being a condition for another, no self implied. There’s no one paying attention and there’s no attention without an object, there’s just objects arising in succession according to DO. The clinging (“this is my experience”) is what sustains the whole process. No clinging, nibbana, just objects arising and passing without the unsatisfactory sense that this is “my experience".
 Again, i simply think from my mown experience that you're just plain wrong on this. Attention is a proxy for nothing. It is the condition for Do, but causally independent of it.
Even in formless jhanas there are objects (space, consciousness, nothingness, even 8th jhana seems to be something), although I’ve only had shallow experience of these.
well then slow down on making theories based on them emoticon

Thanks for the inputs and discussions everyone. Sorry for the slow response time, I'm in the middle of home schooling!

now that is dharma pragmatic!

love, t
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Chris M, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 3:39 PM
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Actually “attention” is just a proxy for what’s going on. DO is just one thing being a condition for another, no self implied. There’s no one paying attention and there’s no attention without an object, there’s just objects arising in succession according to DO. The clinging (“this is my experience”) is what sustains the whole process. No clinging, nibbana, just objects arising and passing without the unsatisfactory sense that this is “my experience".

Agnostic, this hard for me to understand as you're throwing out so many terms, and I'm not sure accurately. I feel like you're kinda flailing around without actually just sitting down and observing these things with the speed and the level of detail at which they will eventually reveal themselves.

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 4:09 PM
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Siavash:
I don't know what was in Papa Che's mind emoticon


I don't know either really hence observing it intently emoticon itching, itching, planning thoughts, uncertainty, itching ... (I can't even remember getting myself involved in this discussion! Mindfulness lapsed I'm guessing emoticon
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/6/20 7:58 PM
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I was hit by post-viral fatigue again this afternoon and spent several hours in bed just watching physical and mental phenomena: sights, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily sensations, feelings, thoughts and memories. It seemed like just an unending stream of phenomena, whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, and everything subject to the three characteristics. My mind seemed to be looking for a way out, but there was none. I couldn’t maintain focus on the breath, so eventually I gave in and took up noting because that was the only thing I could do. As I noted the more complex phenomena lost their “objectness” and disintegrated into sensory “quanta”. I think Daniel calls them vibrations, and their do seem to be overlapping vibration patterns, but it’s so chaotic I prefer to think of it as Brownian motion where the sensory particles are just being randomly buffeted around as they collide with each other. It felt overwhelming at times but not particularly distressing, just the way things are.

The sukha/dukkha dichotomy is really apparent in the relaxation process. I’m “trying to relax” by looking for points of physical tension or mental blocking, which cause dukkha. When I find a blockage I relax into it, which releases it, and sukha flows. But the new level of relaxation just reveals deeper levels of blockage. And so the process continues, seemingly without end. But applying the more precise noting tends to dissolve the sukkha/dukkha phenomena into particles, which lose their pleasant/unpleasant properties and meld into the unified sense field.

And so on it goes, an intense flow of sensory particles. Not bad, not good, just the way it is. It feels like there should be a cessation in there somewhere, but that’s just another thought to note and let pass.

Maybe, just maybe, there is some kind of watcher or overarching awareness there, but noting tends to make even that vanish. A lot of the time there's hardly anything to note apart from very fast blips which can't be accurately noted. There seems to be "a sense of the mind itself" which is light and radiant, but that is more like the jhana aspect which I can hang out in for a while before the fast and tiring vipassana starts up again.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/7/20 5:01 AM
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The investigation into the 5 khandhas and 3 Cs continues almost on autodrive it seems, waking me up in the middle of the night for hours of meditation. It's intense but the body and mind seem to know what they are doing so I trust in the process, what else can be done. The minds seems to switch between vipassana and samatha according to the needs of the moment. It's hard to do while in lockdown with the family, but the viral fatigue gives me the cover I need. Or maybe it's just meditation fatigue and I'm selfishly isolating myself for an impromptu home retreat. Chicken and egg, can't tell which. There's just a strong inner sense of this is the way things are and this is the way they have to be.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/7/20 5:37 AM
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It's amazing the stuff that's stored in the brain. I was just surfing the sleep-wake border and a detailed image popped into my head of a random food store I once went into 25 years ago. Really, at a time like this, that's what's important to be processing?! Maybe it's not so surprising - the ability to remember a specific animal's tracks from 25 years ago could have been the difference between life and death for most of human history. Kind of makes you realize that for all that importance we place on fancy metaphysics and music, that's probably only 1% of the brain, the rest being some mix of hunter-gatherer, mammal and reptile (19%, 30% and 50%?)
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Siavash ', modified 2 Years ago at 5/7/20 6:07 AM
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agnostic:
It's amazing the stuff that's stored in the brain. I was just surfing the sleep-wake border and a detailed image popped into my head of a random food store I once went into 25 years ago. Really, at a time like this, that's what's important to be processing?! Maybe it's not so surprising - the ability to remember a specific animal's tracks from 25 years ago could have been the difference between life and death for most of human history. Kind of makes you realize that for all that importance we place on fancy metaphysics and music, that's probably only 1% of the brain, the rest being some mix of hunter-gatherer, mammal and reptile (19%, 30% and 50%?)


I notice this a lot when doing Shinzen's techniques for working with mind. Namely See In, Hear In, and Auto Think. One image leads to another image that seems to be totally unrelated, to parts of memory that if I wanted to intentionally think about them, I wouldn't find them or remember that they had happened.
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Yeah it's an interesting insight into the how memories are constructed and maintained, this watching yourself falling asleep business. It's like there's a massive software program running in the background which you are mostly unaware of and have no idea how it works. And yet these memories are conditiong everything in your experience all day long.

EDIT: It's also mostly image processing, after the initial burst of random word processing. It makes you realize how much of your sensate memories (including thoughts) is stored as visual representation. Just like in dreams, mostly visual, even thoughts and communications are just "known" in dreams without verbal expression most of the time (for me at least).
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It's surprising how unhinged the mind can become, in a controlled way, due to insight meditation. I was sitting on the toilet staring at my black flip-flops on the bathroom floor and felt them morphing into sinister living entities. Then I go back to helping my kids and no one is any the wiser. I only tried a strong dose of LSD once and it was too much to handle; this is a natural high but it's the same kind of trippiness. The synapses are firing more slowly and observably, going off in different directions at times. It makes you realize that normal everyday reality is just a more tightly controlled trip. The mind can create anything it wants out of pretty much anything else it seems.
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At times like this of high intensity in my practice, there seems to be a tension between “pushing the envelope" vs "letting it settle". In favor of pushing the envelope, I don’t have a lot of time for practice (kids, no retreats) so I want to deepen insight while I have the opportunity. I’m afraid of letting it pass and my practice stagnating. In favor of letting it settle, the deepening insight feels harsh and has some slightly spooky psychological effects. Not that this really puts me off, maybe I’m actually drawn to it because I feel that this is the way deepening insight is “supposed to feel” so it’s a “sign of progress”. But I don’t know if that’s really true or just masochism. Then I hear the voice in my head saying “let it settle”, and I wonder if that’s good advice or a cop out.

Not that I feel I really have much choice in the matter. Practice just seems to be happening by itself in fluctuating cycles of intensity according to some inner dynamics I don’t really see. Also the type of practice varies in cycles: insight vs serenity (often within sits, although the overall focus varies over time) as well as periods of more intellectual/metaphysical investigation. And then I wonder whether this is “good practice” because I’m following my gut and trusting that the body/mind knows what to do, or “bad practice” because I’m just wallowing around and I should be more structured and maybe have a teacher.

Maybe these are all just things to be noted: feelings of should vs shouldn’t, ideas about choice, autonomy, practice and purpose. Ultimately I know there’s nowhere to get to but right here in present experience and there is no one really making these choices, and yet experience seems to be shaped by choices of practice …
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 6:13 AM
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Maybe the answer is just to devote the intensity towards letting it settle.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 6:13 AM
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agnostic:
At times like this of high intensity in my practice, there seems to be a tension between “pushing the envelope" vs "letting it settle". In favor of pushing the envelope, I don’t have a lot of time for practice (kids, no retreats) so I want to deepen insight while I have the opportunity. I’m afraid of letting it pass and my practice stagnating. In favor of letting it settle, the deepening insight feels harsh and has some slightly spooky psychological effects. Not that this really puts me off, maybe I’m actually drawn to it because I feel that this is the way deepening insight is “supposed to feel” so it’s a “sign of progress”. But I don’t know if that’s really true or just masochism. Then I hear the voice in my head saying “let it settle”, and I wonder if that’s good advice or a cop out.

Not that I feel I really have much choice in the matter. Practice just seems to be happening by itself in fluctuating cycles of intensity according to some inner dynamics I don’t really see. Also the type of practice varies in cycles: insight vs serenity (often within sits, although the overall focus varies over time) as well as periods of more intellectual/metaphysical investigation. And then I wonder whether this is “good practice” because I’m following my gut and trusting that the body/mind knows what to do, or “bad practice” because I’m just wallowing around and I should be more structured and maybe have a teacher.

Maybe these are all just things to be noted: feelings of should vs shouldn’t, ideas about choice, autonomy, practice and purpose. Ultimately I know there’s nowhere to get to but right here in present experience and there is no one really making these choices, and yet experience seems to be shaped by choices of practice …
I'm doing a one-trick-pony thing today, mate!

I believe this wisdom applies to Every Fucking Moment on the Path, Any Path.
 
Shargrol
"A gentler approach is to have the intention to stay on the breath, allow for both success and failure to happen, and when failure eventually happens (which of course it will, that's built into the practice, no big deal) --- then the important part of practice happens: noting what was so seductive to the mind. The important thing isn't to get a A+ in class for staying on the breath, it's to learn about how your own mind works. It's learning directly what seduces the mind, and once we know, we can't be very confused anymore. Over time, with the gentler approach, the mind will follow the intention and stay on the breath and it will be a much more sustainable. It won't require effort because your practice didn't require effort with the gentler approach. The mind can hold breathing in awareness without a big struggle".
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 6:35 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 6:34 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Thanks Tim, that's a very relevant quote from shargrol.

While you were posting I meditated on this apparent choice about practice for a bit and recognized it as a macro level version of the interplay between tension and relaxation which is happening at every moment in practice. It feels like the same thing as vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained attention on the meditation object). It’s  “pushing practice” vs “riding practice”. It’s dukkha vs sukha. And I guess the goal if there is one is equanimity, just watching dukkha and sukha arise and pass without identifying with either.
Tim Farrington, modified 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 6:52 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 6:52 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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agnostic:
Thanks Tim, that's a very relevant quote from shargrol.

While you were posting I meditated on this apparent choice about practice for a bit and recognized it as a macro level version of the interplay between tension and relaxation which is happening at every moment in practice. It feels like the same thing as vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained attention on the meditation object). It’s  “pushing practice” vs “riding practice”. It’s dukkha vs sukha. And I guess the goal if there is one is equanimity, just watching dukkha and sukha arise and pass without identifying with either.
O Noble One, Is it not said in the sutras that dukha sucks-a, and sukha is just deep doo-dookha?

Your practice is an inspiration to me, and to all feeble-minded nut jobs everywhere. It is a benefit and a blessing on us, the lowest of the low, and it also makes the angels sing.

love, tim
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 7:16 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 7:06 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Don't put yourself down mate, your practice is just fine just as it is, even when it sucks - especially when it sucks - that's when you're "earning your wages" as Ajahn Brahm puts it.

And suddenly just like that I’m in deep equanimity and everything is ok with life and practice. I feel like I could sit for hours and now I have to school the kids. Amazing how the mind can switch from angst to equanimity so quickly. Paraphrasing Maha Bua here, everything seems to point back to a subtle fluctuation in the citta between dukkha and sukha. One minute the mind is bright and inviting, the next it is slightly tarnished and dissatisfactory. One day practice sucks and the next it is perfect. This fluctuation is all relative to an assumed reference point – me – that is making the judgement between good and bad. In reality the mind is probably perfect and that’s all that’s going on here.
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 8:51 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/8/20 8:50 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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The only unsatisfactory thing about equanimity as far as I can see is the fear of losing it, the knowledge that it can't last forever. Is this why we need to "let go of equanimity" itself? Just like everything else, it comes, it goes, no problem?
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/10/20 3:58 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/10/20 3:58 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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I went to bed early last night and woke up after 2 hours, having been somewhat lucidly thinking about emptiness during my sleep. I felt depersonalized but less anxious than usual and meditated through it. There was strong 3rd eye energy/pain as usual in A&P and then quick DN and into EQ and back to sleep. I’ve started trying Linda’s suggestion of using my nada sound as meditation object, and it seems quite powerful. It is less physical than the breath so it keeps the mind away from the body, which seems to allow the energy process to work faster without me tracking it every step and somehow getting involved or trying to control it.

It’s harder to keep the mind on the nada sound and it caused some anxiety at first because I’ve conditioned myself over 25 years to think of “my tinnitus” as being a scary problem, but it seems to be working. I looked at a tinnitus self-help book I had (Rewiring Tinnitus by Glenn Schweitzer) and he basically says the same thing:- meditate on the sound so that you habituate yourself to it and associate it with relaxation to change your framing of the sound. It’s amazing to think that here is another “medical/psychological problem” which is basically just a framing issue with a natural body-mind phenomenon (the others for me were depression->DN and DP/DR->anatta). Schweitzer mentions an experiment where people without tinnitus were given headphones and told they were going to be played sounds and to report what they heard. Nothing was played through the headphones but 95% of people reported hearing tinnitus-like sounds.  So basically it seems that “people with tinnitus” are just people with an adverse reaction to something that everybody has.

I basically cycle between A&P, DN and EQ every 12-24 hours now if I’m not meditating and as soon as I get a chance to sit I can get from to EQ if I start in A&P/DN or if I start in EQ then I usually trigger an A&P in the form of new and deeper 3rd eye energy/pain. I’m accepting the cycling more now as something that just needs to happen and there’s less desire to get to EQ or fear of losing EQ. It seems that the body/mind knows just about how much energy/pain can be safely released at a time and my job is just to be patient and let it play out.
T, modified 2 Years ago at 5/10/20 4:47 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/10/20 4:47 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Just reading this allowed me to suddenly hear the nada sound, which I've never noticed before. 
George S, modified 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 8:37 PM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/14/20 8:36 PM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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Having been through a few more cycles and thinking about dependent origination, it's becoming clear how craving (tanha) pulls me out of equanimity. Either I crave excitement/interest off the cushion or I focus on piti/energy in meditation, which tends to send me back to A&P/VJ2. Or else I resist unpleasant sensations/feelings, which knocks me back into DN/VJ3. Just seeing that lessens the craving a little, giving me space to think do I really want to go through another cycle?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 2:47 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 5/15/20 2:47 AM

RE: Agnostic's Log 3 (Smoothing the Ride)

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