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After the Storm - my psychosis AAR

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After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/7/20 6:40 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Chris Marti 5/7/20 6:43 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/7/20 7:02 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/7/20 6:48 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR agnostic 5/7/20 8:59 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/7/20 12:34 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR A. DIetrich Ringle 5/7/20 12:13 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/7/20 1:23 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/7/20 7:07 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR hae1en 5/7/20 3:36 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR A. DIetrich Ringle 5/7/20 6:26 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/7/20 7:10 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR hae1en 5/8/20 4:38 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/8/20 6:45 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/8/20 9:15 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/9/20 1:01 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR hae1en 5/9/20 7:05 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/7/20 7:13 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/8/20 3:15 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/8/20 4:06 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 5/9/20 1:34 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Stirling Campbell 5/8/20 7:55 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/8/20 9:20 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Stirling Campbell 5/8/20 9:36 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/9/20 3:50 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/9/20 3:56 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR hae1en 5/9/20 7:10 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Stirling Campbell 5/9/20 11:04 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/8/20 5:04 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/8/20 6:09 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/8/20 5:17 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Stirling Campbell 5/8/20 8:27 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/8/20 9:17 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Stirling Campbell 5/8/20 9:47 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Ni Nurta 5/9/20 5:15 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Evangeline Rose Ingram 5/10/20 6:47 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/20/20 1:34 AM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/9/20 10:39 PM
RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR Tim Farrington 5/9/20 10:41 PM
After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 6:40 AM
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 6:43 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
AAR - love that.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 6:48 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Thankyou for sharing!

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 8:59 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Wonderful. Please tell us more about the things and parts of your life you now see as shallow, if you care to share.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 12:13 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
I struggle with psychosis. I will get these insights that are special and everything. WIth this in mind, they only last a day, two tops. My baseline can shift too. Mostly I have done better, but my track record with hospitalizations are still on track to once a year.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 12:34 PM as a reply to agnostic.
agnostic:
Wonderful. Please tell us more about the things and parts of your life you now see as shallow, if you care to share.


I let go of a lot of childhood interests, pokemon being the most significant. My bookshelves are crammed with bad fantasy; I'm donating a lot of it. A lot of my old clothes suck and can similarly be donated. Overall, I feel like I've gained a measure of taste: clutter and schlock jumps out at me when it didn't before. I'm less willing to settle.

More profoundly, some of my ways of intereacting with others have been pretty damn shallow and egocentric, particularly in my romantic and family lives. I'm taking a hard look at my own vices here and I don't like what I see, so I'm moving forwards with the intent to be more open, honest, forthright and authentic in my interactions with my family and my loved ones. Sorry, but I'm not going to share the embarrasssing details online here. 

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 1:23 PM as a reply to A. DIetrich Ringle.
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome:
I struggle with psychosis. I will get these insights that are special and everything. WIth this in mind, they only last a day, two tops. My baseline can shift too. Mostly I have done better, but my track record with hospitalizations are still on track to once a year.


Scary, honestly. I'd rather not have to deal with this if I can avoid it, though I do feel the insight practices have been helpful in getting my stubborn brain to accept things it doesn't want to...

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 3:36 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.
Hello Evangeline,

Good luck with recovery! I've been there for almost 20 meditation practitioners when they slipped from deconstructing self into psychosis. With some of them very close and for a long time. For some of them it was only one episode and no more episodes appeared for the next two decades. This group allowed themselves to thoroughly restabilise with right medication, therapy and careful anxiety regulation.

In fact in my community I follow an explanatory model, which views some psychotic episodes as results just of a too high anxiety in a super stresfull life situation - and not an expression of an underlying ilness like schizophrenia nor fragile personality structure which makes you structurally prone to relapse. 

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 6:26 PM as a reply to hae1en.
I think Eckhart Tolle said something along the lines of whatever is profound in your experience, go to that. Go to the profound.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 7:02 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
AAR - love that.

ooooooh! yes, thanks Chris, lol. Got it now.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 7:07 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome:
I struggle with psychosis. I will get these insights that are special and everything. WIth this in mind, they only last a day, two tops. My baseline can shift too. Mostly I have done better, but my track record with hospitalizations are still on track to once a year.


Scary, honestly. I'd rather not have to deal with this if I can avoid it, though I do feel the insight practices have been helpful in getting my stubborn brain to accept things it doesn't want to...
I am on the specialized path of Staying the Fuck Out of the Hospital if I can. There is a learning curve, for sure. Hard work in between hospitalizations, strict mania and depression protocols (for me, as a bipolar), and bottomless humility. Processing the last hsopitalization and what led to it--- the After Action Report, lol, indeed--- is job 1. This usually involves shame, chagrin, humiliation, and embarrasssment, for starters. Self-loathing optional, but common.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 7:10 PM as a reply to hae1en.
emoticon
 Hae1en, would you mind emailing me? tim_farrington@msn.com
 I don't want to clutter up ERI's thread here. thanks either way.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/7/20 7:13 PM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.
Hello Evangeline,

Good luck with recovery! I've been there for almost 20 meditation practitioners when they slipped from deconstructing self into psychosis. With some of them very close and for a long time. For some of them it was only one episode and no more episodes appeared for the next two decades. This group allowed themselves to thoroughly restabilise with right medication, therapy and careful anxiety regulation.

In fact in my community I follow an explanatory model, which views some psychotic episodes as results just of a too high anxiety in a super stresfull life situation - and not an expression of an underlying ilness like schizophrenia nor fragile personality structure which makes you structurally prone to relapse. 

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.
This seems like a kill or cure approach, Hae1en, in many ways, unless you are actually sitting with the person, quite literarally in physical, secluded, safe caretaking environment. Once the brooms are dancing, all bets are off, for the duration.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 3:15 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
hae1en:
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.
Hello Evangeline,

Good luck with recovery! I've been there for almost 20 meditation practitioners when they slipped from deconstructing self into psychosis. With some of them very close and for a long time. For some of them it was only one episode and no more episodes appeared for the next two decades. This group allowed themselves to thoroughly restabilise with right medication, therapy and careful anxiety regulation.

In fact in my community I follow an explanatory model, which views some psychotic episodes as results just of a too high anxiety in a super stresfull life situation - and not an expression of an underlying ilness like schizophrenia nor fragile personality structure which makes you structurally prone to relapse. 

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.
This seems like a kill or cure approach, Hae1en, in many ways, unless you are actually sitting with the person, quite literarally in physical, secluded, safe caretaking environment. Once the brooms are dancing, all bets are off, for the duration.

I "died" thrice already in one big passion play, and it didn't solve anything. Anything worth dying for is worth living for, you know?

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 4:06 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
Tim Farrington:
hae1en:
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.
Hello Evangeline,

Good luck with recovery! I've been there for almost 20 meditation practitioners when they slipped from deconstructing self into psychosis. With some of them very close and for a long time. For some of them it was only one episode and no more episodes appeared for the next two decades. This group allowed themselves to thoroughly restabilise with right medication, therapy and careful anxiety regulation.

In fact in my community I follow an explanatory model, which views some psychotic episodes as results just of a too high anxiety in a super stresfull life situation - and not an expression of an underlying ilness like schizophrenia nor fragile personality structure which makes you structurally prone to relapse. 

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.
This seems like a kill or cure approach, Hae1en, in many ways, unless you are actually sitting with the person, quite literarally in physical, secluded, safe caretaking environment. Once the brooms are dancing, all bets are off, for the duration.

I "died" thrice already in one big passion play, and it didn't solve anything. Anything worth dying for is worth living for, you know?

Be still, my heart. The woman is a fucking genius.

Thank God, my ass has been flapping in the wind on this.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 5:04 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Update: 
I put together some pieces of what was left behind in the wreckage. I had a theme or melody in me that answered to Laugh, and one that answered to Sawtooth or Noise, and I thought they could go together into something like Conductor - something that caught the lightning - but couldn't figure it out. 

It was laugh and _cry._ And together they're a voice. My voice. I found my voice. 

Well, that's that. 

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 6:09 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
Update: 
I put together some pieces of what was left behind in the wreckage. I had a theme or melody in me that answered to Laugh, and one that answered to Sawtooth or Noise, and I thought they could go together into something like Conductor - something that caught the lightning - but couldn't figure it out. 

It was laugh and _cry._ And together they're a voice. My voice. I found my voice. 

Well, that's that. 
yes.
It was laugh and _cry._ And together they're a voice. My voice. I found my voice. 

Well, that's that. 
yeah, that'll do it.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 5:17 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
oh wait people use last name to indicate _lineage transmission_ around here don't they

oops. 

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 4:38 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
emoticon
 Hae1en, would you mind emailing me? tim_farrington@msn.com
 I don't want to clutter up ERI's thread here. thanks either way.
Can you PM me?

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 6:45 PM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:
Tim Farrington:
emoticon
 Hae1en, would you mind emailing me? tim_farrington@msn.com
 I don't want to clutter up ERI's thread here. thanks either way.
Can you PM me?

I can't make the thing work, as an independent outgoing mail thing. I am able to receive messages, and then reply, so you could PM me. or just take it to the meditation-related dfficulties thread----

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19828075

i just want to pick your mind on your experience in working with psychotic meditators (speaking as a relatively recent and thoroughly humbled psychotic meditator, and as one interested in helping those like me)

(edit) it occurs to me i'm over-thinking this. Forget I ever said anything and that i am an idiot and simply tell me, if you would, please, here, on THIS recently psychotic kind-of meditator's thread, about your experiences working with psychotic meditators. 
I've been there for almost 20 meditation practitioners when they slipped from deconstructing self into psychosis. With some of them very close and for a long time. For some of them it was only one episode and no more episodes appeared for the next two decades. This group allowed themselves to thoroughly restabilise with right medication, therapy and careful anxiety regulation.

In fact in my community I follow an explanatory model, which views some psychotic episodes as results just of a too high anxiety in a super stresfull life situation - and not an expression of an underlying ilness like schizophrenia nor fragile personality structure which makes you structurally prone to relapse. 

This, more on this. and here's fine, Evangeline Rose is a big girl now, she can handle it fine, though she'll probably miss the Bob Dylan reference and bust me for "girl." She'll then bust Bob Dylan, and onward to most of patriarchal western civilization. So there's room on this thread, it seems to me, unless she kicks one or both of us off it.

love, tim

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 7:55 PM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.

No psychosis (that I am aware of), but I have quite absorbing hypnogogia a couple nights a week, including "seeing the monks" a LOT for those who know what I am saying. (New thread?)

Recently, after waking up to an absorbing Thai puppet play on the wall of my room and beginning yet again to wake up my wife so that she could appreciate it, I had a nice INSIGHT about it - that I had to wake up and write down for myself.

The upshot was obvious: the puppet play is, of course, as real as death and taxes... it is also as UNREAL as death and taxes. Dreams and the waking state are as real as each other, moment to moment. The puppet play is American politics, Covid, my dog lying in the sun, and, more resonantly, the shadow of a tree on my eyelids. What makes most sense is to hold ALL of it lightly. The involvement of "thinking mind" - the process of reification - is the problem. What is persistent, once seen? As insightful hae1en suggests, the formless - once seen - is present in ALL phenomena, in all moments, sleeping dreaming, or... I imagine... in moments of ordinary or profound psychosis. Perhaps this is REAL mental health... or REAL psychosis? Dunno. Just some guy making things more complex than they need to be. emoticon

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 8:27 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
The Eight Similes of Illusion - Patrul Rinpoche

As in a dream, all the external objects perceived with the five senses are not there, but appear through delusion.

As in a magic show, things are made to appear by a temporary conjunction of causes, circumstances and connections.

As in a visual aberration, things appear to be there, yet there is nothing.

As in a mirage, things appear but are not real.

As in an echo, things can be perceived but there is nothing there, either outside or inside.

As in a city of gandharvas, there is neither a dwelling nor anyone to dwell.

As in a reflection, things appear but have no reality of their own.

As in a city created by magic, there are all sorts of appearances but they are not really there.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 9:15 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Girl is fine. Woman is better, but I'm not sure I live up to that yet. Big girl? That I can manage.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 9:17 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
The Eight Similes of Illusion - Patrul Rinpoche

As in a dream, all the external objects perceived with the five senses are not there, but appear through delusion.

As in a magic show, things are made to appear by a temporary conjunction of causes, circumstances and connections.

As in a visual aberration, things appear to be there, yet there is nothing.

As in a mirage, things appear but are not real.

As in an echo, things can be perceived but there is nothing there, either outside or inside.

As in a city of gandharvas, there is neither a dwelling nor anyone to dwell.

As in a reflection, things appear but have no reality of their own.

As in a city created by magic, there are all sorts of appearances but they are not really there.

I never had illusion, only delusion, but it went all the way up to the city of magic.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 9:20 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
hae1en:

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.

No psychosis (that I am aware of), but I have quite absorbing hypnogogia a couple nights a week, including "seeing the monks" a LOT for those who know what I am saying. (New thread?)

Recently, after waking up to an absorbing Thai puppet play on the wall of my room and beginning yet again to wake up my wife so that she could appreciate it, I had a nice INSIGHT about it - that I had to wake up and write down for myself.

The upshot was obvious: the puppet play is, of course, as real as death and taxes... it is also as UNREAL as death and taxes. Dreams and the waking state are as real as each other, moment to moment. The puppet play is American politics, Covid, my dog lying in the sun, and, more resonantly, the shadow of a tree on my eyelids. What makes most sense is to hold ALL of it lightly. The involvement of "thinking mind" - the process of reification - is the problem. What is persistent, once seen? As insightful hae1en suggests, the formless - once seen - is present in ALL phenomena, in all moments, sleeping dreaming, or... I imagine... in moments of ordinary or profound psychosis. Perhaps this is REAL mental health... or REAL psychosis? Dunno. Just some guy making things more complex than they need to be. emoticon
Right now I'm working on getting an off switch.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 9:36 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:

Right now I'm working on getting an off switch.

I recognize that this might be the way forward. Even just seeing the switch from formless (if understood) to reified ideation could be a way forward. Best wishes for continued success either way. 

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/8/20 9:47 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:

I never had illusion, only delusion, but it went all the way up to the city of magic.

I *ALMOST* feel like I could say the same thing... only I was always aware that there was a slightly sour tang to my beliefs. Even my rampant scientism, or identified liberal identy had the abundant tang of something I knew was a paper shield. If there is any blessing it is the moment Beginner's Mind is present.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 1:01 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
Girl is fine. Woman is better, but I'm not sure I live up to that yet. Big girl? That I can manage.
The thing driving it was an exquisite old Bob Dylan song from the mid-seventies album Blood on the Tracks, still his best single album, in my dinosaur opinion.

"You're A Big Girl Now"



Our conversation was short and sweet
It nearly swept me off-a my feet
And I'm back in the rain oh oh
And you're on dry land
You made it there somehow
You're a big girl now.

Bird on the horizon sitting on the fence
He's singing his song for me at his own expense
And I'm just like that bird oh oh
Singing just for you
I hope that you can hear
Hear me singing through these tears.

Time is a jet plane it moves so fast
Oh but what a shame if all we've shared can't last
I can change I swear oh oh
See what you can do
I can make it through
You can make it too.

Love is so simple to quote a phrase
You've known it all the time I'm learning it these days
Oh I know where I can find you oh oh
In somebody's room
It's a price I had to pay
You're a big girl all the way.

A change in the weather is known to be extreme
But what's the sense of changing horses in midstream ?
I'm going out of my mind oh oh
With a pain that stops and starts
Like a corkscrew to my heart
Ever since we've been apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGfm6KE_pg


RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 1:34 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:

Anything worth dying for is worth living for, you know?


This! Yes!

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 3:50 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Wait, this is all about understanding reification????

What a mess

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 3:56 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
Wait, this is all about understanding reification????

What a mess

no, sweets, it's about understanding the process of de-reification, aka dissolving. Relax, you are way ahead of the curve. Let them talk among themselves. Just say interesting things, for your part.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 7:05 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
[quote=
](edit) it occurs to me i'm over-thinking this. Forget I ever said anything and that i am an idiot and simply tell me, if you would, please, here, on THIS recently psychotic kind-of meditator's thread, about your experiences working with psychotic meditators. 

I don't have much more to say than Willoughby Britton and Daniel. My background is in psychology and therapy, but I have many intimate experiences with friends and loved ones. I have also struggled (with some success happily thanks to projects like Willougby's) with an old Sangha system with no informed nor trained teachers, who neglected the impact of psychotic breakdown, had no tools to diagnose nor manage the crisis on the onset and basically - in their own narcisstistic omnipotent delusions - sent all vulnerable, imploding people to the garden instead to the Dharma room with no extra care. Meditation is unfortunately not an universal cure. But I think the right view is always correct.

When with family and friends - I always support them in trusting their chosen doctors, therapists and treatment protocol. It can take years to find one but it's worth it. And there is no other way. I don't treat psychosis at work but it just happened that I had to learn something for my community and loved ones. It's not a replacement for professional treatment, which is crucial, however here in brief for daily life during approximately two years after the breakdown or hospitalisation:

Since some seekers are not in a position even to trust their senses "here and now" (this is also to respond to Stirling) my extra two cents when not in active psychosis are - Whatever has sensory form and is based on verbal thinking is suffering. This is the first noble truth. This is a kill-switch for the time of doubt. You can recognize you are in doubt observing the anxiety curve. Anxiety means not only conscious fear but also lower and higher energy level - establish your baseline for assesment. Anytime anxiety is elevated - stop the formal practice, return to grounding, try to find the sensation of peace in your body and mind, even if no other symptoms. Truth is formless and peaceful.

Suspend trust in anything that has a sensory form or is possible to phrase in words. The truth freeing you from suffering and leading you to peace is empty of form and thinking anyhow - for all meditators in the world, not only the ones in crisis. Trust only the grounding peaceful sensations which help you return to the baseline free-of-anxiety level. Anytime there is any discomfort and lack of clarity and uncertainty or excess of energy, which has a demanding nature - your anxiety is not at the baseline level. Return to grounding, peace and formlessness to find the truth.

Grounding can be being in nature, touching objects, rubbing your body, hugging, walking bare foot, eating heavy food in small doses, experiencing cold water (even only hands), regulating breathing (slower, longer outbreath WITH natural inbreaths, not longer than 5 minutes), repeating metta (May I be healthy and happy, May others... or alike), Jacobson's progressive muscle relaxation (instead of any other relaxation forms), excercise, weight lifting, running - anything soothing.

You might sometimes not be able to recognise if you're in a dream or what's your own identity, but the only sensory perception you can always trust is the growing sensation of grounding and peace in your body and mind. If you think this peaceful feeling is not reliable and can lead you astray, this is verbal thinking so suspend trusting it. You are looking for truth, which is formless, wordless and peaceful.

Trust only the formless (and wordless), formless is peaceful, look for peace in body and mind.

This may sound simplistic and naive, but that's what I've learned from various people, who experienced psychosis. For more effectivenes, it should be coupled with more complex treatment, where one can actually work with reality testing and choosing forms and thoughts to trust. 

Psychosis is very seductive and this seductive feeling of allure and insight can compete with the need of finding peace and formless truth. But luckily the sensations of being seducted are always coupled with elevated anxiety and elevated energy, so with time it's easier to label it as anxiety. And return to grounding.

I hope this can be helpful for anyone. The simplicity is not for the sake of minimizing the complex universe of psychosis - but for the sake of impaired memory and cognitive skills, when anxiety and symptoms kick in.

I use these tips personally when having unusual experiences and never trust these experiences which are coupled with anxiety. 

I don't have much time to write, but if anyone wishes to respond to this, please do not highjack ERI's thread and instead move the discussion here to "meditation related difficulties": https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19828075

EOT

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 7:10 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
hae1en:

In any case I've learned to observe one rule when in doubt - trust only the formless, anything formed is an illusion, even if it seems the most important thing in the universe.
No psychosis (that I am aware of), but I have quite absorbing hypnogogia a couple nights a week, including "seeing the monks" a LOT for those who know what I am saying. (New thread?)
(...)
 As insightful hae1en suggests, the formless - once seen - is present in ALL phenomena
Hi Stirling, there is a nice thread on hypnagogia - "mind made body", where you can post. Curious of your input. Regarding formless in all phenomena, as I wrote earlier - I think many people experiencing transpersonal, deconstructive aspects of psychosis are not even able to trust the content of their senses and are not sure what is a sensory phenomena and what is a hallucination.

So in my opinion before insight formless=phenomena, there are couple of years of reorienting to formless instead of seductive forms. And improving reality testing skills.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 11:04 AM as a reply to hae1en.
hae1en:

I think many people experiencing transpersonal, deconstructive aspects of psychosis are not even able to trust the content of their senses and are not sure what is a sensory phenomena and what is a hallucination.

So in my opinion before insight formless=phenomena, there are couple of years of reorienting to formless instead of seductive forms. And improving reality testing skills.
Oh, absolutely. emoticon

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 5:15 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
hae1en:
I think many people experiencing transpersonal, deconstructive aspects of psychosis are not even able to trust the content of their senses and are not sure what is a sensory phenomena and what is a hallucination.
How is one able to trust own senses?
There must be something to compare sensual experiences against it to to determine if this given sensation is valid or should be attenuated.

The sense of self is this something that is used in normal healthy human beings. It is what I call the reference experience. Everything is compared against it and this comparison influence how it is processed.

When sense of self is unstable or completely broken but there is nothing to take its role as reference experience or mind is not flexible enough to take different stable experience as reference and insist on using broken sense of self then the sensual and internal mind experience will be broken and unstable.

It is possible to generate stable reference experience from senses directly by using itself as reference. Normally when there is eg. touch mind jumps to reference experience (eg. sense of self) to compare touch with it and then it knows it is touch, real, etc. Instead of doing it this way you can use already existing experience of touch as reference. It will force new touch experience to be experienced by new set of neurons and those experiences will be compared against each other in which process any missing information including any changes and details will be filled until there is nothing to fill at which point processing will be "done" and you will feel it is done. It is very specific feeling, very strong and details about this sensual experience will appear rock solid and sharp. Information which are relevant to this sensual experience which previously were part of sense of self will be part of this sensual experienceand mind will feel like despite spending much less effort and power on processing sensual stimuli it is also able to get much more processing done on it, get more details.

Sense of self is not important here. Tendency to use it might be causing this easy trick I just described to appear harder than it really is. Nothing need to be done with sense of self. Same for any other reference experience that is used instead of sense of self.

One can and should use reference experience he or she likes including sense of self and other created even for the sole purpose of amusement. Over relying on what is (or even worse: was) and lack of low level knowledge about how mind works and proper maintenance procedures is however a big issue and results in issues like psychosis.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 10:39 PM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/9/20 10:41 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
So, I decided to get this down in more detail so as not to forget it. 

In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge. I wandered worlds of strange dharma where people were more animal-like, where time danced and twirled, and where I was being sent messages by the worldsoul or the spirit of humanity through the radio or my internet connection. I saw coded signals in body language and styles of waving. I heard voices, I sang, I danced, I did and believed a lot of very stupid irrational things that made perfect sense in the moment. I spent a day as a samurai and another day as a geisha. Etc, etc.

I Went Somewhere, Man, as the saying goes. Places in here made breathing feel glorious. 6th jhana characteristics if I don't miss my guess. I sang at God a lot and cathartically earthed my resentment at organized religion and esp. christianity through basicallly Mad Musical Theatre. I dreamed of alternate layers of reality where the internet had more depth to it and more detail. I dreamed of a lot! And I want to get it all down. But that'll take a while, hence the thread.

Major upshots:
I seem better at music.
I want to live more authentically.
I feel more secure and confident in myself to some degree, even as I have no idea who I am.
I am more vain, in a focussed manner that produces disdain for things & parts of my life I now see as shallow.
I care more about visual noise and clutter in my environment.
I feel a bit more adult and a little less childish.
God damn the air down here sucks, esp. in the city.
you grew.
In the depths of my psychosis I believed many very silly things. I also noticed a lot that was usually not obvious. Often the two are deeply entangled and difficult to dislodge.
no shit.

love, tim

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/10/20 6:47 AM as a reply to Ni Nurta.
Hey, Ni Nurta:
hae1en:
I think many people experiencing transpersonal, deconstructive aspects of psychosis are not even able to trust the content of their senses and are not sure what is a sensory phenomena and what is a hallucination.
How is one able to trust own senses?
There must be something to compare sensual experiences against it to to determine if this given sensation is valid or should be attenuated.

The sense of self is this something that is used in normal healthy human beings. It is what I call the reference experience. Everything is compared against it and this comparison influence how it is processed.

When sense of self is unstable or completely broken but there is nothing to take its role as reference experience or mind is not flexible enough to take different stable experience as reference and insist on using broken sense of self then the sensual and internal mind experience will be broken and unstable.

It is possible to generate stable reference experience from senses directly by using itself as reference. Normally when there is eg. touch mind jumps to reference experience (eg. sense of self) to compare touch with it and then it knows it is touch, real, etc. Instead of doing it this way you can use already existing experience of touch as reference. It will force new touch experience to be experienced by new set of neurons and those experiences will be compared against each other in which process any missing information including any changes and details will be filled until there is nothing to fill at which point processing will be "done" and you will feel it is done. It is very specific feeling, very strong and details about this sensual experience will appear rock solid and sharp. Information which are relevant to this sensual experience which previously were part of sense of self will be part of this sensual experienceand mind will feel like despite spending much less effort and power on processing sensual stimuli it is also able to get much more processing done on it, get more details.

Sense of self is not important here. Tendency to use it might be causing this easy trick I just described to appear harder than it really is. Nothing need to be done with sense of self. Same for any other reference experience that is used instead of sense of self.

One can and should use reference experience he or she likes including sense of self and other created even for the sole purpose of amusement. Over relying on what is (or even worse: was) and lack of low level knowledge about how mind works and proper maintenance procedures is however a big issue and results in issues like psychosis.


I'm using this! Thank you for the updates.

RE: After the Storm - my psychosis AAR
Answer
5/20/20 1:34 AM as a reply to Evangeline Rose Ingram.
Evangeline Rose Ingram:
Hey, Ni Nurta:
hae1en:
I think many people experiencing transpersonal, deconstructive aspects of psychosis are not even able to trust the content of their senses and are not sure what is a sensory phenomena and what is a hallucination.
How is one able to trust own senses?
There must be something to compare sensual experiences against it to to determine if this given sensation is valid or should be attenuated.

The sense of self is this something that is used in normal healthy human beings. It is what I call the reference experience. Everything is compared against it and this comparison influence how it is processed.

When sense of self is unstable or completely broken but there is nothing to take its role as reference experience or mind is not flexible enough to take different stable experience as reference and insist on using broken sense of self then the sensual and internal mind experience will be broken and unstable.

It is possible to generate stable reference experience from senses directly by using itself as reference. Normally when there is eg. touch mind jumps to reference experience (eg. sense of self) to compare touch with it and then it knows it is touch, real, etc. Instead of doing it this way you can use already existing experience of touch as reference. It will force new touch experience to be experienced by new set of neurons and those experiences will be compared against each other in which process any missing information including any changes and details will be filled until there is nothing to fill at which point processing will be "done" and you will feel it is done. It is very specific feeling, very strong and details about this sensual experience will appear rock solid and sharp. Information which are relevant to this sensual experience which previously were part of sense of self will be part of this sensual experienceand mind will feel like despite spending much less effort and power on processing sensual stimuli it is also able to get much more processing done on it, get more details.

Sense of self is not important here. Tendency to use it might be causing this easy trick I just described to appear harder than it really is. Nothing need to be done with sense of self. Same for any other reference experience that is used instead of sense of self.

One can and should use reference experience he or she likes including sense of self and other created even for the sole purpose of amusement. Over relying on what is (or even worse: was) and lack of low level knowledge about how mind works and proper maintenance procedures is however a big issue and results in issues like psychosis.


I'm using this! Thank you for the updates.

What she said, +1.

Thank you Stirling Campbell, Ni Nurta, Haie1en, and Evangeline Rose. I am honored to know you all.

love, tim