free will

This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 6:53 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 6:37 AM

free will

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
A lot of very clever people have said that free will is an illusion. I suppose that if ego is an illusion then free will must be also.

So if I type this post, then it's "just typing". Or you could say "it's just Life doing typing in this body/mind", or "it's just the Infinite typing". I feel like it's me with my free will doing this, doing that... but is it?

If it's "just typing" (no controller, no doer), why would I practice (or not practice) meditation/AF/DP? If Life is living me, I might choose to go to the beach and lie in the sun rather than meditate. I simply use my illusory free will and go to the beach, but really it's Life going to the beach, not me (there is no me). Why do anything? How can anything I do make a difference to anything if I am an illusion? How can anything I do make a difference if free will is an illusion?

Why does the Infinite *live me* as an ego instead of a no-self? Do I just wait till something happens?

I'm lost. See?
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 6:59 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 6:54 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Cause and effect. What was the cause for posting, CCC? And what was the cause for the cause for posting? And what was the cause for the cause for the cause for posting? And what what was the cause for the cause for the cause for the cause for the you get my point...an endless flow of objects coming in contact with the sense doors triggering thoughts and mind states which in turn trigger actions of body, speech and mind, which in turn triggers more of the same and so on and on. Even when the causes for effects are aimed in a positive development direction and the effects are positive, they are still a flow of cause and effect/cause and effect etc. Keep the flow of cause and effect flowing in a positive direction as you see fit (which will be conditioned by the view you hold and thus more cause and effect).
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 6:59 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 6:58 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Nik, what are the objects in "endless flow of objects"?
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:04 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:04 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Hey CCC,

The 6 sense doors and their objects:


Ṣaḍāyatana (Sanskrit) or saḷāyatana (Pāli) means the six sense bases (Pāli, Skt.: āyatana), that is, the sense organs and their objects.[1] These are:

Eye and Vision
Ear and Hearing
Nose and Olfaction
Tongue and Taste
Skin and Touch
Mind and Thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B8%B7%C4%81yatana
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:17 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:13 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
And karma (action/past action) causes these objects to endlessly flow in?

If that's the case, then I can change things with my free will. Then I'm going in circles again!
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:21 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:21 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
What caused you to think that you could change things with your free will? When you change things with your free will, what caused that? And what caused that cause? And what caused the cause for that cause? And so on...

But yeh, set up the right causes for the desired effects and so on and on and call it what you wish (which is dependent on the view you hold).
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:27 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 7:27 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
This is how I used to feel doing a maths exam. Brain held up to a certain point, then there was too many levels to reference at once... meltdown.

Thanks for replies. Will read it again tomorrow when I'm fresh.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 8:18 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 8:18 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
i like to look at it in the following pragmatic way:

if you assume there isn't free will, and there isn't actually free will, then that's fine - the universe just going about its business. if you assume there isn't free will, and there is actually free will, then you will be doing yourself a disservice, and perhaps not caring cause "it'll all turn out the same anyway", and maybe you won't live life to the fullest. if you assume there is free will, and there isn't actually free will, then that's fine - the universe just going about its business. if you assume there is free will, and there is actually free will, then you have the opportunity to shape your life in whatever way you can for the best - doing your best, going for the best outcome, etc...

notice that if you assume there is free will, you never 'lose': you're always doing your best given what is actually the case. if you assume there isn't free will, then you 'lose' if there actually is free will, or some degree of influencing things...

thus it's in your interest to assume that your actions do indeed have consequences, regardless of whether that's the case, and to do your best to do your best.

so why would you practice meditation/AF/DP? i do it so that i can live my life to the fullest potential. pick any reason you like.
, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 9:24 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 9:24 AM

RE: free will

Posts: 385 Join Date: 8/11/10 Recent Posts
well said!

an outcome of practice is cessation of swimming circles around one's self and being in the world, engaging its any occasions.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 8:04 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/9/11 8:04 PM

RE: free will

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Hedging your bets eh Beo? I like it!

I think I have a better understanding now, even though it's theoretical. How does this sound? While in the dream state, the following are inviolable laws: karma, cause and effect, free will. In the state of Oneness, karma, cause and effect and free will are all seen as illusions.