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RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/28/20 12:25 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/28/20 9:30 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/28/20 9:48 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/28/20 11:51 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/28/20 12:55 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Olivier 7/28/20 1:10 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/29/20 7:53 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/28/20 1:43 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 4:11 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/29/20 4:22 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 4:25 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/29/20 5:12 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 5:37 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/29/20 6:03 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 6:10 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 7/30/20 5:02 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/30/20 6:45 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 7/30/20 7:11 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" T 7/30/20 9:26 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Stirling Campbell 7/30/20 11:39 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 7/30/20 11:58 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 2:55 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 2:41 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/31/20 6:05 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/31/20 6:26 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/31/20 11:33 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/31/20 10:10 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 8/1/20 5:05 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/2/20 1:58 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 8/3/20 5:10 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/4/20 4:38 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 8/5/20 7:55 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/5/20 3:55 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 8/6/20 7:28 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 8/5/20 5:06 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/5/20 6:47 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 8/6/20 3:28 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" shargrol 7/29/20 6:59 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 7/30/20 3:36 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/29/20 7:01 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 7:12 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/29/20 7:21 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Daniel M. Ingram 7/29/20 10:16 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Daniel M. Ingram 7/29/20 11:21 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Ni Nurta 7/29/20 11:20 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 7/30/20 3:31 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 1:39 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 5:15 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 1:44 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Noah D 7/28/20 4:01 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Zachary 7/28/20 4:55 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 12:44 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Zachary 7/30/20 7:05 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/31/20 8:57 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" (D Z) Dhru Val 7/28/20 6:52 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" T 7/29/20 9:39 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/29/20 10:18 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/29/20 10:55 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/29/20 3:55 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/31/20 1:34 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/2/20 8:34 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/2/20 7:31 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/3/20 4:36 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/4/20 5:01 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/4/20 7:14 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/4/20 10:06 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 8/5/20 7:10 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Tim Farrington 8/6/20 4:32 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 1:32 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/30/20 2:26 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 3:17 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 3:18 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/31/20 12:42 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 3:30 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 3:37 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/31/20 1:35 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/31/20 9:37 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/31/20 9:47 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/31/20 10:35 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Brian 7/31/20 11:23 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 8/1/20 12:55 AM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 1:07 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Stirling Campbell 7/29/20 11:31 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 2:18 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 12:09 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 12:13 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/30/20 12:57 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 3:12 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/30/20 3:26 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" A. DIetrich Ringle 7/28/20 2:23 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Milo 7/28/20 2:51 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" terry 7/30/20 12:24 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 3:37 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Chris Marti 7/29/20 3:41 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 3:52 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 7/29/20 4:01 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Yuri K 7/29/20 4:14 PM
RE: "That nice engineer" Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/2/20 8:26 AM
RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 12:25 AM
Yuri K:
Daniel...

Page 330...

You are/have been "screwed up"

I'm that "nice engineer"...but I'm really not that..."nice"...

Weber and I have posted this nexus point a long time ago. You chose not to listen.

Perhaps you want to discuss other models?

Lemme' know...

....

Days grow short...


Overly ominous and mysterious, and likely to soon violate forum rules. Since you've chosen to make this a public post, why not just come out and say what you have to say?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 9:30 AM as a reply to Milo.
With a little bit of investigation based on my familiarity with the couple of hints in the OP, I find this in MCTB2. BTW, the "Weber" cite in Yuri's OP refers, no doubt, to Gary Weber. Pardon me, Daniel, for citing from your book as liberally as I will now do.

From https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-v-awakening/37-models-of-the-stages-of-awakening/the-no-thought-models/:

Do the minds of progressively awakened people generally get quieter? Yes. May they experience greater periods of time when inner talk seems to be doing very little? Yes. May they come to a completely different perceptual relationship to thoughts in general? Yes. Does anyone who is still alive eliminate all categories of experience that are mental and might be classified as thoughts? No.

I got an email awhile ago from a nice engineer who said basically: “I did some Taoist practices, got enlightened, and now am incapable of thinking any thoughts or visualizing, yet I seem to function normally. What do you think of this?” I put a lot of thought into my response, and so am including it here, in slightly edited and revised form:

“One of my teachers, the late Bill Hamilton, used to talk about how people’s conceptions of what was supposed to happen would have some influence on subsequent events, but with some question remaining over what that influence might be. We used to discuss this often, with possibilities including:

1) People with different models of awakening might achieve different results. (The more I practice and get to know people’s practices well, the more I realize there are some real individual variations on some of the general themes. That said, there are also commonalities to how most human brains function.)

2) People with different models might achieve the same thing but describe it differently. (I like this one more than the first.)

3) Some combination of 1) and 2).

4) People might fail to achieve results but be scripted to report or believe that they had achieved something in line with their own working model. This is a common occurrence, one that I have observed in myself more times than I can count and also in the practice of many other fellow dharma adventurers. Bill would often mention people’s ability to self-hypnotize into semi-fixed states of delusion. He had a long run of hanging out in scary cult-like situations with psychopathic teachers and friends and got to observe this firsthand in himself and others: see his book Saints & Psychopaths for more on this.

5) People with different models and techniques might have very different experiences of the path along its way: this is clearly true in some aspects, and yet the universal aspects of the path continue to impress me with their consistency and reproducibility regardless of tradition.

6) Other possibilities we haven’t considered, in the style of Donald Rumsfeld’s famous “unknown unknowns”.


RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 9:48 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?






RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 11:51 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?






Ok I guess I'm playing Watson to your Holmes here, as this still seems very cryptic.

I spent some time going over Gary Weber's website: http://happiness-beyond-thought.com/

Lots of stuff about Advaita Vedanta and Taoism, the universal/ground self, and such.

So are we to take it that OP interprets your conundrum as resolved by the model of actions continuing in the enlightened "No thought" individual because these things are actually veiled actions of the universal self, and they would like to see this model included in MCTB? Or is there some ancient DhO politics being revived here of which I'm unaware?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 12:55 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 1:10 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yuri emoticon

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 1:43 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 2:23 PM as a reply to Milo.
You have to keep going until the engine is so greasy it's not apparent which fuel is burning and which fuel is providing lubrication. Even so, it is not enough.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 2:51 PM as a reply to A. DIetrich Ringle.
A. DIetrich Ringle:
You have to keep going until the engine is so greasy it's not apparent which fuel is burning and which fuel is providing lubrication. Even so, it is not enough.

Ha, well if Chris can make sense of this I'll have to trust the guy with crowd control in his job description : )

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 4:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Lol!

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 4:55 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm curious to hear how this works experientially for a thought-less practitioner as well. I remember listening to Vinay Gupta on a podcast recently describe how at some point in the 1990's he had some insight experience and since then hasn't had a single thought. He has, however, gone on to do quite a bit of public speaking and writing since that time. 

I'm guessing that if there truly is no experience of thought in these cases, that the person must have an experience of total agencyless coupled with the replacement of conceptual imagery and language in the mind by some other unknown "thing" or "force" that is now "driving" what is experienced by outsider observers as conventional thinking-based activity (such as writing ominious forum posts). What that could possibly be I have no idea. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/28/20 6:52 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:


What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?






There is a difference between "having thoughts" from a neurological, actions oriented, 3rd person standpoint and "perceiving thoughts" from a 1st person standpoint.



Similarly a difference between "having emotions" from a neurological, actions oriented, 3rd standpoint and "perceiving emotions" from a 1st person standpoint.



People with these types of perceptual shifts sometime conflate the 2.


I think the conflation is delusional.


A more accurate statement would be 'I don't percive visual thoughts" or "I don't perceive verbal thoughts" or "I don't perceive emotional affect" etc.



I have posted a couple of times on this forum that when I drink its I donb't really feel 'buzzed' but this doesn't mean than I am not physically drunk or that my actions in an inebriated state are not influenced by being drunk. 



There is also a matter of some more difficult to perceive changes that happen that are correlated with emotions / thoughts but these are different from pre-practise emotions, thoughts etc. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 7:53 AM as a reply to Olivier.
Yuri emoticon

Yeah, just like I said, Yuri  emoticon

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 9:39 AM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 10:18 AM as a reply to T.
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 10:55 AM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?

The worst siddhi : )

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 3:37 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Yuri K:
Daniel...

Page 330...

You are/have been "screwed up"

I'm that "nice engineer"...but I'm really not that..."nice"...

Weber and I have posted this nexus point a long time ago. You chose not to listen.

Perhaps you want to discuss other models?

Lemme' know...

....

Days grow short...


Overly ominous and mysterious, and likely to soon violate forum rules. Since you've chosen to make this a public post, why not just come out and say what you have to say?

Stimulus and response...

One does like to see the effects of a long-time experiment...right?

As one who is not in any "limelight" I've always been curious about what might happen if anyone from the early days of this might respond.

A few nights ago a friend asked me about whether to buy:

"This so cool book that I've been hearing about from my friends. Have you ever heard about it? What do you think about it???"

MCTB 2....

Yeah...Daniel...I think you at least should have emailed me asking me for permission to post that email...But...

So it goes...

And the responses speak for themselves on the experiment...

Some notes:

I am an engineer...And work in medical devices, including a recently launched MRI system. I've "donated" my brainwaves and other medical info for more than 20 years - without posting on intertubes and attempting to make some bucks from it...

I learned a lot from my original instructors...The Taoist master from China...The zen buddhist master from down the street from me...and the first nations shaman who actually showed me reality.

May your journey be long and...well...in reality...

Again...

The responses here are very instructive and will be forming part of my book...

have fun...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 3:41 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
The responses here are very instructive and will be forming part of my book...

You seem to be driven by thoughts of anger and revenge, Yuri.

emoticon 



RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 3:52 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The responses here are very instructive and will be forming part of my book...

You seem to be driven by thoughts of anger and revenge, Yuri.

emoticon 



Cool...

Time is always a factor, Chris.

And less than four minutes is...awesome...

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 3:55 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?

The worst siddhi : )

Lol! 

I had the same experience the last time I had alcohol, by the way, but after that I had a couple of days with really poor connection to the elements, so since then I haven't touched it. Not worth it. Sometimes I miss a glass of good quality white wine, though. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 4:01 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The responses here are very instructive and will be forming part of my book...

You seem to be driven by thoughts of anger and revenge, Yuri.

emoticon 


I get the same impression. There also seems to be strong preferences for specific forms of interpunctuation commonly used to indicate that there are implications or thoughts hidden between the lines, which I find funny in this context. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 4:11 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Forget it...

Now some very interesting responses...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 4:14 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
The responses here are very instructive and will be forming part of my book...

You seem to be driven by thoughts of anger and revenge, Yuri.

emoticon 


I get the same impression. There also seems to be strong preferences for specific forms of interpunctuation commonly used to indicate that there are implications or thoughts hidden between the lines, which I find funny in this context. 

Thanks, Linda.

You have done a great service posting both drugs and history here.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 4:22 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Daniel...

You know who I am...

Should we book some side-by-side fmri's?

Daniel, I have a simple question: I've posted here before and you did respond. Why have you never cleared posting your response to my email in your books???

Does sending an email implicitly give permission to post and take profit???


As a fellow engineer, I would take things up with the boss or HR rather than mass mailing the office with vague intimations.

Prove me wrong that this isn't heading into trolling if you wish.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 4:25 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Daniel...

You know who I am...

Should we book some side-by-side fmri's?

Daniel, I have a simple question: I've posted here before and you did respond. Why have you never cleared posting your response to my email in your books???

Does sending an email implicitly give permission to post and take profit???


As a fellow engineer, I would take things up with the boss or HR rather than mass mailing the office with vague intimations.

Prove me wrong that this isn't heading into trolling if you wish.



"The boss or HR"...

Isn't this HR, Milo???

Anyway...this entire thread is now saved for my book...

Best!!!

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 5:12 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Daniel...

You know who I am...

Should we book some side-by-side fmri's?

Daniel, I have a simple question: I've posted here before and you did respond. Why have you never cleared posting your response to my email in your books???

Does sending an email implicitly give permission to post and take profit???


As a fellow engineer, I would take things up with the boss or HR rather than mass mailing the office with vague intimations.

Prove me wrong that this isn't heading into trolling if you wish.



"The boss or HR"...

Isn't this HR, Milo???

Anyway...this entire thread is now saved for my book...

Best!!!

Once again, have you tried contacting Daniel directly?

https://www.integrateddaniel.info/contact

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 5:15 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?






Ok I guess I'm playing Watson to your Holmes here, as this still seems very cryptic.

I spent some time going over Gary Weber's website: http://happiness-beyond-thought.com/

Lots of stuff about Advaita Vedanta and Taoism, the universal/ground self, and such.

So are we to take it that OP interprets your conundrum as resolved by the model of actions continuing in the enlightened "No thought" individual because these things are actually veiled actions of the universal self, and they would like to see this model included in MCTB? Or is there some ancient DhO politics being revived here of which I'm unaware?

Look up Frank Heile, Chris...The 

https://spiritualityexplained.com/

His model is pretty good, IMHO, particularly based on actual scientific feedback...

Anyway...I'm certain you'll just say "Angry guy"...And that, I will note, is part of your response to input...

Daniel:  send me that release form for my original email....Otherwise I will consider everying here that is linked to my posts as material for my book...

And this thread is...absolutely...considered part of my book...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 5:37 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Daniel...

You know who I am...

Should we book some side-by-side fmri's?

Daniel, I have a simple question: I've posted here before and you did respond. Why have you never cleared posting your response to my email in your books???

Does sending an email implicitly give permission to post and take profit???


As a fellow engineer, I would take things up with the boss or HR rather than mass mailing the office with vague intimations.

Prove me wrong that this isn't heading into trolling if you wish.



"The boss or HR"...

Isn't this HR, Milo???

Anyway...this entire thread is now saved for my book...

Best!!!

Once again, have you tried contacting Daniel directly?

https://www.integrateddaniel.info/contact

Are you a "mod"???

Daniel: send me that release form for my original email....

ASAP...

I'm sure that you have it...

Meanwhile...

Long time ago...in a galaxy far, far away....

Wait...I rememb3r now...

Long time ago...Totally different galaxy and small blue dot...

Some mammal discovered how to "swim"...

You know...flapping appendages and all that stuff...

The "early schools" were a lot about how the...well, let's be honest here....

Student totally failed...

And then a bit later...

Swimming.

You take your kids to some YMCA where the instructor had "a couple great courses, paid some bucks, and now know everything"???

Right...

This stuff is swimming...

Meditate on that...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 6:03 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Daniel...

You know who I am...

Should we book some side-by-side fmri's?

Daniel, I have a simple question: I've posted here before and you did respond. Why have you never cleared posting your response to my email in your books???

Does sending an email implicitly give permission to post and take profit???


As a fellow engineer, I would take things up with the boss or HR rather than mass mailing the office with vague intimations.

Prove me wrong that this isn't heading into trolling if you wish.



"The boss or HR"...

Isn't this HR, Milo???

Anyway...this entire thread is now saved for my book...

Best!!!

Once again, have you tried contacting Daniel directly?

https://www.integrateddaniel.info/contact

Are you a "mod"???

Long time ago...in a galaxy far, far away....

Wait...I rememb3r now...

Long time ago...Totally different galaxy and small blue dot...

Some mammal discovered how to "swim"...

You know...flapping appendages and all that stuff...

The "early schools" were a lot about how the...well, let's be honest here....

Student totally failed...

And then a bit later...

Swimming.

You take your kids to some YMCA where the instructor had "a couple great courses, paid some bucks, and now know everything"???

Right...

This stuff is swimming...

Meditate on that...

Nope.

Just a guy whose goat isn't easily got.

Over and out.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 6:10 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Daniel...

You know who I am...

Should we book some side-by-side fmri's?

Daniel, I have a simple question: I've posted here before and you did respond. Why have you never cleared posting your response to my email in your books???

Does sending an email implicitly give permission to post and take profit???


As a fellow engineer, I would take things up with the boss or HR rather than mass mailing the office with vague intimations.

Prove me wrong that this isn't heading into trolling if you wish.



"The boss or HR"...

Isn't this HR, Milo???

Anyway...this entire thread is now saved for my book...

Best!!!

Once again, have you tried contacting Daniel directly?

https://www.integrateddaniel.info/contact

Are you a "mod"???

Long time ago...in a galaxy far, far away....

Wait...I rememb3r now...

Long time ago...Totally different galaxy and small blue dot...

Some mammal discovered how to "swim"...

You know...flapping appendages and all that stuff...

The "early schools" were a lot about how the...well, let's be honest here....

Student totally failed...

And then a bit later...

Swimming.

You take your kids to some YMCA where the instructor had "a couple great courses, paid some bucks, and now know everything"???

Right...

This stuff is swimming...

Meditate on that...

Nope.

Just a guy whose goat isn't easily got.

Over and out.

Certainly...only you could have yer goat in a tight grasp...

Good to know...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 6:59 PM as a reply to Milo.
Just curious  how  deep  i could  quote

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 7:01 PM as a reply to Milo.
Hi, Yuri.

DhO Moderator here.

Milo makes a good point. If your beef is with Daniel Ingram you should probably talk to Daniel privately. Posting your complaints on the message board, publicly, makes me think there are other motivations afoot. And what's up with making threats to expose that which is already public?

Why shouldn't I shut this thread down?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 7:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Hi, Yuri.

DhO Moderator here.

Milo makes a good point. If your beef is with Daniel Ingram you should probably talk to Daniel privately. Posting your complaints on the message board, publicly, makes me think there are other motivations afoot. And what's up with making threats to expose that which is already public?

Why shouldn't I shut this thread down?

Your call, Chris.

Although I do expect to be directly notified if this thread is shut down (or deleted) and have a pdf of the thread sent to me...

And make sure to let me know the infractions for the thread...That will be important.

'nuff said...It's been an...interesting...discussion.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 7:21 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
The DhO posting rules - always available to anyone, at any time:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/faqs

Again, this message board is publicly avaliable. You can come here and copy whatever you want, any time you want. I'm not obligated to send you anything. If you're worried about this thread diappearing, I suggest you make a copy now. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 10:16 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yuri started to post on the DhO in Nov, 2018 about the email and the like, and, while I was splitting the thread it occurred in, deleted it, but I had a copy, as every DhO post results in an email to me, and I offered to restore the post and apologized, but he apparently thought better of it and declined to talk with me then even after I invited him to and provided further contact information. Now, yes, clearly he appears to be acting a bit strangely, and thinking odd things about us, with odd innuendos whose import I can't fathom but don't honestly have a lot of bandwidth for speculating about. His emails back then had that same odd flavor of hinting at much that was at least slightly cynical and sinister while saying little.

@Yuri: Yes, everything here is public, so copy and put whatever you wish from this forum in a book if you think that would be helpful. If you think it would be good to talk with me, I am happy to hear your thoughts. As to your original email, I went looking for it but can't find it, as my emails before about 2008 got destroyed in some long-ago computer glitch/error/something I can't even recall at this point, and, as that section appears in MCTB1, it must have been from before that, but I recall that what I put in my email is a summary and without direct quotes or identifying information, and so I feel no ethical qualms about it and don't feel you have a right to an anonymized summary. My response to you, which I do post in the book, is my own work, so I obviously have rights to that cleanly.

What do you think would be good to get from this exchange here on this thread? Do let us know your thoughts.

Best wishes,

Daniel

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 11:21 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Oh, yes, since you mentioned somewhere about making money on the book, the editing and other costs of MCTB2 were about $40,000, more than I ever made on MCTB1, and, after doctor-level taxes on MCTB1, I have lost many thousands on the whole thing, but, of the money that does come in now, I give it away to various Dharma related causes or use it to help buy things to create dharma content (such as a better microphone for podcasts and the like, and that is rare), and also use it to pay for the DhO server time and development. In short, only a fool would do this for the money. MCTB2 also brings in little money as books go, being an obscure niche tome with multiple free online versions.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 11:20 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Do let us know your thoughts.
Isn't the whole point of the delusion of not having thoughts to have them but not telling anyone else?

That is what makes people feel strange. They do not even see they are becoming creepy because they are hiding everything from themselves...

Dwelling in excessive amount of thoughts is bad but "removing" all thoughts is as bad if not worse. Kinda the same as with everything else...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/29/20 11:31 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?


This is the most interesting (and most fun) part of the thread. 

My pass at the questions, minus the last one, taken seriously from my perspective:

1. A post can be posted (or indeed ANY activity) can occur with no thoughts - which is not to say thoughtlessly, which actually TAKES thoughts. Composing a truly confusing statement generally takes a LOT of thoughts. 

2. It is entirely possible that Gary and Chris can have a complete conversation with no thoughts on a number of levels, none of which are some conceptual dodge.

3. Very Ramana Maharshi indeed! Imagine a world where this question was taken seriously by all beings who believed they were functioning people. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:31 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Chris Marti:
Hi, Yuri.

DhO Moderator here.

Milo makes a good point. If your beef is with Daniel Ingram you should probably talk to Daniel privately. Posting your complaints on the message board, publicly, makes me think there are other motivations afoot. And what's up with making threats to expose that which is already public?

Why shouldn't I shut this thread down?

Your call, Chris.

Although I do expect to be directly notified if this thread is shut down (or deleted) and have a pdf of the thread sent to me...

And make sure to let me know the infractions for the thread...That will be important.

'nuff said...It's been an...interesting...discussion.

Shut this thread down? Are you kidding? This is just starting to get interesting.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:36 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Just curious  how  deep  i could  quote

Just curious if I could quote slightly deeper.

I just wanted to be at the bottom of a "reply with quote" that had begun to exceed the technical capacity of the program here. It becomes a classic koan instantly: reply with quote to THIS! Deeper than WHAT?! Quoting WHO?

Meditate on that, motherfuckers!

Moderate this, Chris!

Riot control, to section eight.

love, tim

p.s. Yuri, thank you for fomenting all this. I hope to be in the appendix to your book. Will sign off on the release with simple online virtual initials.
tfxf

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 5:02 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
emoticon

Hi Yuri,

With regard to the experience of "no thoughts," I seem to recall that Bernadette Roberts, a Catholic contemplative who died a couple years ago and explored what she called the "No-Self" condition, in a manner that deeply offended certain orthodox assholes (she was feisty as fuck, and more Catholic than the Council of Nicea, basically), did say at a few points that she had no thoughts. She wrote several books about this, lol.

I have experienced states in which words are inaccessible, for sure, as a bipolar peron in manias, where i could remember this thing, language, and could generate one letter at a time in a way that ended up spelling things--- almost like real slow channeling, in the dynamic. It is rare to be that far out, and only has happened in hospitals on locked wards, for the record. But It is possible to imagine getting better at that state and working from a place beyond words while still managing to communicate in language, as a sort of accumulation of single letter mioments. Like typing a text message on a cell phone, except slower still, and not knowing what any particular letter means until it can be read in words.

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me. In that state i retreat, either physically or inwardly, until the noise is distant enough to not literally hurt (urgent noise physically hurts, agonizingly, in the state). I have experienced someone saying "I love you", trying to break through, and it was only when i was literally far enough away that the words' impact had lessened because of the faintness that i could decipher the words in their intended meaning. Then I was able to introduce volume control, and gradually make my way back to quieter conversation with mutual recognition of tone and semantics and so forth. In less "successful" episodes of regression into no-language-noise-bearable, i have thrown chairs at people trying to get them to shut the fuck up and stop generating that awful din, and flung myself out the doors of moving cars. So my learning curve on this front is shallow, as surviving any given learning episode is kind of iffy,m and recovery times are long.

I doubt this is what you are talking about when you talk in words about being beyond verbal thought. But I do know that functioning without verbal thought does take place, and am prepared to consider that you somehow got good as fuck at it. I would be interested in your, uh, thoughts on this. Feel free to communicate musically.

love tim

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 6:45 AM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 7:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


i would tend to agree with you, Chris. I'm mainly trying to get at where Yuri is coming from here. I actually think this whole no-thought thing is a giant stupid red herring distraction from reality, lol. But here we are. It's a game with words, while we wait for reality to bring us home to a proper relationship. With reality. Without self. Fuck this thought shit.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 9:26 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I completely agree, Chris. I was trying to articulate the same, only clearly not as well. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 11:39 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


It is an interesting topic. At the basic level, someone who experiences no "self" might say, "thoughts occur, but they are not mine, therefore "I" do not experience thoughts". This is sort of a dodge, as there ARE still thoughts. Deeper down, the day to day experience might be that there is no narrative that follows our actions (a point that is interesting as most people imagine their narration precedes their actions and IS who they are) and that the actions themselves arise spontaneously with no "doer" in a quiet mind. Is this what you are getting at with your math and dog visualization points? 

I have honestly considered thoughts as those that include the verbal component, so I would say personally I have VERY few thoughts, but if we include the mental images, body sensations, or even emotions (even considering their "empty" nature) that arise then that isn't true. If we are broadening our definition, perhaps makes sense to drop even these appellations and consider them just phenomena in "mind" as we would call it in the traditions I have worked in? So then, there are ultimately no thoughts, or sense doors, skhandas, etc., just phenomena arising and passing.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 11:58 AM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


It is an interesting topic. At the basic level, someone who experiences no "self" might say, "thoughts occur, but they are not mine, therefore "I" do not experience thoughts". This is sort of a dodge, as there ARE still thoughts. Deeper down, the day to day experience might be that there is no narrative that follows our actions (a point that is interesting as most people imagine their narration precedes their actions and IS who they are) and that the actions themselves arise spontaneously with no "doer" in a quiet mind. Is this what you are getting at with your math and dog visualization points? 

I have honestly considered thoughts as those that include the verbal component, so I would say personally I have VERY few thoughts, but if we include the mental images, body sensations, or even emotions (even considering their "empty" nature) that arise then that isn't true. If we are broadening our definition, perhaps makes sense to drop even these appellations and consider them just phenomena in "mind" as we would call it in the traditions I have worked in? So then, there are ultimately no thoughts, or sense doors, skhandas, etc., just phenomena arising and passing.

Amen. And I come at this also from the angle of seeing mind as the sixth sensory door. Receiving thoughts, we are receiving something from the world, and with lucidity and practice wecan begin to rwad those thoughts realistically, undertsanding in finer detail and discernment what they represent of the world, as we do with all other sense impressions.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 12:09 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?







   I have no I, therefore, I have no thoughts.

qed


A fully functioning person by the nature of the fact has no I. The I interferes with full functioning.

You can sit next to a fully functioning person whose no-I is having no thoughts and still have a great conversation. Two or more fully functioning people can converse as well.

I suspect the nice engineer was just messing with danel's blind spot.

terry



"What do you think of that?"

~gary weber

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 12:13 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?







   I have no I, therefore, I have no thoughts.

qed


A fully functioning person by the nature of the fact has no I. The I interferes with full functioning.

You can sit next to a fully functioning person whose no-I is having no thoughts and still have a great conversation. Two or more fully functioning people can converse as well.

I suspect the nice engineer was just messing with danel's blind spot.

terry



"What do you think of that?"

~gary weber


non sum, ergo, non cogito

~non descartes

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 12:24 PM as a reply to A. DIetrich Ringle.
A. DIetrich Ringle:
You have to keep going until the engine is so greasy it's not apparent which fuel is burning and which fuel is providing lubrication. Even so, it is not enough.

I once had a car, an old delta 88, that used more oil than gas... you know, check the gas and fill it with oil...I ended up putting 90 weight in it because it smoked through thirty weight too quickly.

It didn't run long.

t

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 12:44 PM as a reply to Zachary.
Zachary:
I'm curious to hear how this works experientially for a thought-less practitioner as well. I remember listening to Vinay Gupta on a podcast recently describe how at some point in the 1990's he had some insight experience and since then hasn't had a single thought. He has, however, gone on to do quite a bit of public speaking and writing since that time. 

I'm guessing that if there truly is no experience of thought in these cases, that the person must have an experience of total agencyless coupled with the replacement of conceptual imagery and language in the mind by some other unknown "thing" or "force" that is now "driving" what is experienced by outsider observers as conventional thinking-based activity (such as writing ominious forum posts). What that could possibly be I have no idea. 


   Onr does not focus on the lack of thought, one focuses on the lack of experience.

   According to zen, the buddha preached for 49 years and never said a single thing.

   He had nothing to say, and said it quite elaborately. This is not a conundrum, but a paradox, a nondualism.

   A subject which thinks is the creator of thinking (cogito ergo sum); this is entirely circular, one thinks one is, but one is not. Thinking in itself - preforming words for speech - is not necessarily an I-function. It's organic, like passing gas, or sneezing, or laughing. One wouldn't want to sneeze all the time, only when appropriate. To not-I, thinking just happens, speech just happens, ideas occur to one beyond thought and may or may not find expression. No I, no-I, has anything to do with it. The material world and the intelligible world are continuous, and the separation of an I tfrom its thoughts embedded in its worlds is artificial, dualistic. "I" am no more my thoughts than I am the universe, and no less.

   The I is just another thought. Identification is a prison.

t




Why, then, 'tis none to you, for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.

HAMLET

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 12:57 PM as a reply to terry.
 I have no I, therefore, I have no thoughts.

This line of thinking is dodgy, IMHO. It's a kind of cheat, and the easy way out of the conundrum. I've talked to Gary Weber face to face and he doesn't mean this. He means, very literally, that there are no thoughts. He's not effing around with this, "There is no I so I have no thoughts" crap.

So there  emoticon

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 1:07 PM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Chris Marti:


What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?






There is a difference between "having thoughts" from a neurological, actions oriented, 3rd person standpoint and "perceiving thoughts" from a 1st person standpoint.



Similarly a difference between "having emotions" from a neurological, actions oriented, 3rd standpoint and "perceiving emotions" from a 1st person standpoint.



People with these types of perceptual shifts sometime conflate the 2.


I think the conflation is delusional.


A more accurate statement would be 'I don't percive visual thoughts" or "I don't perceive verbal thoughts" or "I don't perceive emotional affect" etc.



I have posted a couple of times on this forum that when I drink its I donb't really feel 'buzzed' but this doesn't mean than I am not physically drunk or that my actions in an inebriated state are not influenced by being drunk. 



There is also a matter of some more difficult to perceive changes that happen that are correlated with emotions / thoughts but these are different from pre-practise emotions, thoughts etc. 


   Not merely the conflation is delusional. Both standpoints are "delusional" in the sense that they are relative, individual, biased. Neither the judge nor the perp is real. Only the story is real, and it is only a story.

   Most people don't realize they are drunk.

terry



from the gospel according to thomas


 [28]. Jesus says: "I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh I manifested myself to them. I found them all drunk; I found none athirst among them. And my soul was afflicted for the children of men. Because they are blind in their heart and do not see, because they have come into the world empty, <that is why> they seek still to go out from the world empty. But let someone come who will correct them! Then, when they have slept off their wine, they will repent." 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 1:32 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 1:39 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
Milo, please read my post about the conundrum. That's my best guess about what the OP by Yuli is about. There has been a low-level, ongoing debate about the claims that Gary Weber makes in re having no thoughts. If you read the entire text behind the MCTB2 link I posted you will see that Daniel makes some critical remarks that Yuli may have taken offense at.


Thanks, Chris. I read and considered the conundrum and the MCTB reference you posted, but was missing the political context to put together the particulars of what OP objected too. Without context this sounded like the perennial manic troll post. I rest my objections.

An interesting...response...

Does anyone here even wonder about Daniel's quote of my email in the book(s)???

C'mon...do you ever wonder if you've been "quoted" or are you...

Happy with that "fact"?

I was actually curious about the "effects" but certainly after...what...well more than 15 years of actual (recorded) "state"...

I would have, in very least, expected some scientific responses...

My EEG and fmri are now in a couple reports as well as on record at a few of the medical device companies where I have worked. 

These are records...

Forget it...

Now some very interesting responses...

   Hey, he said you were nice, what more do you want?

   If you put us in your book, be sure to tell your audience we are nice folks.

t

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 1:44 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Milo:
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?






Ok I guess I'm playing Watson to your Holmes here, as this still seems very cryptic.

I spent some time going over Gary Weber's website: http://happiness-beyond-thought.com/

Lots of stuff about Advaita Vedanta and Taoism, the universal/ground self, and such.

So are we to take it that OP interprets your conundrum as resolved by the model of actions continuing in the enlightened "No thought" individual because these things are actually veiled actions of the universal self, and they would like to see this model included in MCTB? Or is there some ancient DhO politics being revived here of which I'm unaware?

Look up Frank Heile, Chris...The 

https://spiritualityexplained.com/

His model is pretty good, IMHO, particularly based on actual scientific feedback...

Anyway...I'm certain you'll just say "Angry guy"...And that, I will note, is part of your response to input...

Daniel:  send me that release form for my original email....Otherwise I will consider everying here that is linked to my posts as material for my book...

And this thread is...absolutely...considered part of my book...


aloha yuri,

   If it is based on actual scientific feedback, what good could it actually be? Or, indeed, any model. Can enlightenment be modeled? By whom? Why?

   Perhaps you have actual answers. Or even suggestions.

terry

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 2:18 PM as a reply to Stirling Campbell.
Stirling Campbell:
Chris Marti:
The conundrum:

Can a human being compose and post a comment like the one that opens this thread and yet have no thoughts?

Can I sit next to Gary Weber at lunch and have a great conversation with him about any number of topics while Gary is having no thoughts?

What does it mean, in this context, to say "I have no thoughts and yet I'm a fully functioning person?


This is the most interesting (and most fun) part of the thread. 

My pass at the questions, minus the last one, taken seriously from my perspective:

1. A post can be posted (or indeed ANY activity) can occur with no thoughts - which is not to say thoughtlessly, which actually TAKES thoughts. Composing a truly confusing statement generally takes a LOT of thoughts. 

2. It is entirely possible that Gary and Chris can have a complete conversation with no thoughts on a number of levels, none of which are some conceptual dodge.

3. Very Ramana Maharshi indeed! Imagine a world where this question was taken seriously by all beings who believed they were functioning people. 

   People who who believe they are fully functioning people are not fully functioning people, therefore they are fully functioning people.

   Consider that, while everyone by nature is doing the best they can, most people are unaware of this and feel guilt and shame over not doing their best. While one who knows - with certainty, because it is in the nature of things - she is doing her best is always making up for her deficiencies, without regarding those deficiencies as less than her (humble) best.

   Because all things are impermanent, one never is enlightened, one is always becoming enlightened. We are not perfect, we are becoming perfect. We are not base metal turned alchemically into gold, we are the turning from base into noble. The balance in an ongoing sense.

   Every moment is a turning moment. The universe is upaya.

terry



from dogen, shobogenzo, genjokoan, shasta abbey trans:


[90] When the Dharma has not yet satisfied the body and mind we feel already replete with Dharma. When the Dharma fills the body and mind we feel one side to be lacking. For example, sailing out beyond the mountains and into the ocean, when we look around in the four directions, [the ocean] appears only to be round; it does not appear to have any other form at all. Nevertheless, this great ocean is not round, and it is not square. Other qualities of the ocean are inexhaustibly many: [to fishes] it is like a palace and [to gods] it is like a string of pearls. But as far as our eyes can see, it just seems to be round. As it is for [the ocean], so it is for the myriad dharmas. In dust and out of the frame, [the myriad dharmas] encompass numerous situations, but we see and understand only as far as our eyes of learning in practice are able to reach. If we wish to hear how the myriad dharmas naturally are, we should remember that besides their appearance of squareness or roundness, the qualities of the oceans and qualities of the mountains are numerous and endless; and that there are worlds in the four directions. Not only the periphery is like this: remember, the immediate present, and a single drop [of water] are also like this.




simple gifts
(edgar meyer)


'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free,
Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
'Twill be in the valley of love and delight.

When true simplicity is gain'd,
To bow and to bend we will not be asham'd,
To turn, turn will be our delight,
Till by turning, turning we come round right.




in the lotus sutra, chapter 3, the buddha says:

"A man returns home to find his house in flames with his children inside playing happily, not realizing the consequences of the fire. The man calls his children to come out, but being involved in their game, the children refuse to do so. With no other option to bring them out, the father tells them that he has brought them beautiful carts that are drawn by goats, deer and bullock. His statement made the children come out immediately, but only to find nothing their father had promised. However, the relieved father soon got them more than what he had told them to make them get out of the house on fire."

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 2:26 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 2:41 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


   I think you have this backwards. Talking to yourself is what crazy people do. Having ideas is sane and wholesome. Verbalizing them is natural.

   People who say they don't have thoughts are making a statement, not of fact, but to arouse a reaction. What is thought? The mental commentary of a ghost-like alter ego, which drops away as one becomes sane, or are thoughts also the expression of the ideas which communicate truth? It rather depends on what is verbalized, and to whom. To raise the subject, as you did with your conundrum, as to invite closer examination of the nature of thought, ideas, and verbalization, and thence the nature of reality.

   In the context of dharma teachers and students, I would imagine a person who claims to not have thoughts is referring to the stream of judgments emitted by those mental contents identified with ego.

   There are the thoughts of ego, which are delusion, and there are the thoughts of god, which are reality.

   Who do you think you are? (Open your mouth and you are lost. Thwack!)

terry

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 2:55 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Stirling Campbell:
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


It is an interesting topic. At the basic level, someone who experiences no "self" might say, "thoughts occur, but they are not mine, therefore "I" do not experience thoughts". This is sort of a dodge, as there ARE still thoughts. Deeper down, the day to day experience might be that there is no narrative that follows our actions (a point that is interesting as most people imagine their narration precedes their actions and IS who they are) and that the actions themselves arise spontaneously with no "doer" in a quiet mind. Is this what you are getting at with your math and dog visualization points? 

I have honestly considered thoughts as those that include the verbal component, so I would say personally I have VERY few thoughts, but if we include the mental images, body sensations, or even emotions (even considering their "empty" nature) that arise then that isn't true. If we are broadening our definition, perhaps makes sense to drop even these appellations and consider them just phenomena in "mind" as we would call it in the traditions I have worked in? So then, there are ultimately no thoughts, or sense doors, skhandas, etc., just phenomena arising and passing.

Amen. And I come at this also from the angle of seeing mind as the sixth sensory door. Receiving thoughts, we are receiving something from the world, and with lucidity and practice wecan begin to rwad those thoughts realistically, undertsanding in finer detail and discernment what they represent of the world, as we do with all other sense impressions.

   Mind is definitely merely a sixth sensory door.

   In my meditation I try to think no thought but I also try to not attach to anything coming in through any of the six sensory doors. If I hear a dog bark or truck pass by, if I am honest it is likely to encourage me to return from wherever my mind has wandered, to attending to no thought, no sense. When my mine wanders, which has grown less over the years, it is usually the mental contents which distract me, rather than the birds, my leg hurting, or the smell of insense. So I have learned to sideline my mind as such by attending to sounds, or the sights of the inside of my eyeballs, the floaters floating by. Because in the nature of things mental contents arise and pass away, a few minutes of attending to my heartbeat or my eyes or ears or the feel of my legs and the breeze is enough for whatever I was thinking about to have dissiipated.

   This works outside formal meditation as well. We are always attending to something (first nt), the trick is to not get stuck.

terry

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 I have no I, therefore, I have no thoughts.

This line of thinking is dodgy, IMHO. It's a kind of cheat, and the easy way out of the conundrum. I've talked to Gary Weber face to face and he doesn't mean this. He means, very literally, that there are no thoughts. He's not effing around with this, "There is no I so I have no thoughts" crap.

So there  emoticon
aloha chris,

   This isn't thinking as such, it is logic. Without an I, there are no thoughts being had by an I. 

   It hardly matters what gary really thinks.  (If) I literally think I have no thoughts; so what? Does that reduce the burden of your thoughts?

   If I think I think, is that really any different than if I think that I don't think? Does thinking this way make gary weber - or john doe, or joe blow - more enlightened, or a better person? Does any personal claim to any spiritual "achievement" mean anything really, or is it just a con, a tease, or a plea to be loved? I leave out those rare individuals who make objective claims to achievement, such as the buddha, who was living proof.

   If such statements aren't dialectical they are of no value whatever.

   The resolution here is to realize that thought and thinker are not two. Think of it as self-canceling.


terry

   

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:17 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?


   And look what happened to the buddha...

t

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:18 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?


   And look what happened to the buddha...

t

beggars can't be choosers

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:26 PM as a reply to terry.
 If I think I think, is that really any different than if I think that I don't think? Does thinking this way make gary weber - or john doe, or joe blow - more enlightened, or a better person? Does any personal claim to any spiritual "achievement" mean anything really, or is it just a con, a tease, or a plea to be loved? I leave out those rare individuals who make objective claims to achievement, such as the buddha, who was living proof.

terry, I'm throwing a yellow flag. This is your second dodge, man. Play the game!

emoticon

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:30 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?
it's ok to eat meat, if unhealthy, as long as you adhere to precept one...nor can you let anyone kill sentient beings for you...

to me, in our society, this precept means vegetarianism; how strict is up to the vegetarian...

some monks brush insects out of their way, and strain their water...


The five moral precepts are:

to refrain from taking life, ie killing any living creature
to refrain from taking what is not freely given, ie theft
to refrain from misuse of the senses or sexual misconduct, ie overindulgence in sex or committing sexual offences
to refrain from wrong speech, ie lying or gossiping
to refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind, ie drugs or alcohol

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 3:37 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?
it's ok to eat meat, if unhealthy, as long as you adhere to precept one...nor can you let anyone kill sentient beings for you...

to me, in our society, this precept means vegetarianism; how strict is up to the vegetarian...

some monks brush insects out of their way, and strain their water...


The five moral precepts are:

to refrain from taking life, ie killing any living creature
to refrain from taking what is not freely given, ie theft
to refrain from misuse of the senses or sexual misconduct, ie overindulgence in sex or committing sexual offences
to refrain from wrong speech, ie lying or gossiping
to refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind, ie drugs or alcohol


of all the things that the human race collectively does to destroy the planet, I think eating meat is the worst...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/30/20 7:05 PM as a reply to terry.
terry
   
A subject which thinks is the creator of thinking (cogito ergo sum); this is entirely circular, one t
hinks one is, but one is not. Thinking in itself - preforming words for speech - is not necessarily an I-function. It's organic, like passing gas, or sneezing, or laughing. One wouldn't want to sneeze all the time, only when appropriate. To not-I, thinking just happens, speech just happens, ideas occur to one beyond thought and may or may not find expression. No I, no-I, has anything to do with it. The material world and the intelligible world are continuous, and the separation of an I tfrom its thoughts embedded in its worlds is artificial, dualistic. "I" am no more my thoughts than I am the universe, and no less.

Yes, I understand the agency-less and owner-less nature of thought. For the most part, it has been a lived experience for many months now over here. What Vinay Gupta, Gary Weber, Bernadette Roberts and Yuri are describing seems to be something different, a step further. They are stating that there are no thoughts, that is, there are no images or language, fragments of language, whatever, rattling around in the spatial area where the "head" is, regardless of who's thoughts or images they happen to be. This seems to be an entirely different claim that I don't understand. I imagine a human body-mind, even fully awakened, still relies on a causal flow of images and language to perform many of its functions, though I am certainly open to hearing about how this would work in a body-mind empty of all thoughts. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 12:42 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?


   And look what happened to the buddha...

t

Ok, you made me laugh with that one, Terry. Well played : )

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 1:35 AM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
terry:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?


   Drinking solvents is as lunatic as eating flesh. To note that these activities are socially acceptable is a criticism of social values. One thinks of cypher lighting his cigar and telling the agent man, "I don't want to remember nothing, no-thing" and "Ignorance is bliss."

   People speak of indulging vices as "enjoying life" and remind us we won't live forever. Settling for low pleasures is a waste of one's precious life. "When they have slept off their wine, they will repent." Only when the effects have passed can we assess their true nature.

   Perhaps the precepts are basic common sense. 

terry




No blossoms and no moon
and he is drinking sake
all alone!

~basho

Vegetarianism is, however, not a core precept and the Buddha rather infamously consumed meat, so perhaps that's not all there is to it?
it's ok to eat meat, if unhealthy, as long as you adhere to precept one...nor can you let anyone kill sentient beings for you...

to me, in our society, this precept means vegetarianism; how strict is up to the vegetarian...

some monks brush insects out of their way, and strain their water...


The five moral precepts are:

to refrain from taking life, ie killing any living creature
to refrain from taking what is not freely given, ie theft
to refrain from misuse of the senses or sexual misconduct, ie overindulgence in sex or committing sexual offences
to refrain from wrong speech, ie lying or gossiping
to refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind, ie drugs or alcohol

As a vegetarian myself I agree it's good for practice. Not exactly a modern dietary phenomenon though. Sid's Jain contemporaries pulled it off just fine, and criticized him over it. Allegedly it even led to a split in the sangha. But we're getting into the weeds here aren't we?

I once had a chance to talk with with some Vajrayana bhikkunis who embarked on strict no-kill practice like you describe. They mentioned a big part of this practice was coming to terms with the fact that following precepts perfectly is not possible, even under ideal ascetic conditions and with the best intentions.

I'm sure most modern householders break down and have an unskillfull beer (Or a coffee) now and then, despite the precept.  So I'm going to maintain it's relevant and in keeping with the purposes of this forum to point out multiple corroborating reports of a potential phenomenal hazard multiplier. That gives good reason to follow that precept more closely than a modern practitioner might otherwise be inclined.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 1:34 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Milo:
Milo:
T:
That sits well as a clarifier, DZ.

While I don't have this all the time, what I sometimes experience is what appears to be an absence of thought. It's that there's very very little self-referential and narrative thought circling audibly. However, the brain is still functioning as I eat a sandwich or drive - thoughts are being transmitted with resulting actions of chewing or turning left using a blinker. It's just that it's quiet without the narration and appears as if without thought. 

Like you say - it appears as if without intoxication, and yet chemically there is certainly intoxication occurring. 

I agree. Far less narrative / discursive thought. That doesn't mean there's no thought though since sub-verbal stuff still goes on.

What you and D Z mention about intoxication is absolutely true, and I've commented on the same phenomenon here several times. Meditation does something that seems to really deprogram whatever feedback loop allows your brain to remain aware of intoxication level. I'm much more cautious with alcohol than I used to be because of this. Perhaps this influenced the precept?

The worst siddhi : )

Lol! 

I had the same experience the last time I had alcohol, by the way, but after that I had a couple of days with really poor connection to the elements, so since then I haven't touched it. Not worth it. Sometimes I miss a glass of good quality white wine, though. 

Next up: coffee? : )

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 6:05 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


   I think you have this backwards. Talking to yourself is what crazy people do. Having ideas is sane and wholesome. Verbalizing them is natural.

   People who say they don't have thoughts are making a statement, not of fact, but to arouse a reaction. What is thought? The mental commentary of a ghost-like alter ego, which drops away as one becomes sane, or are thoughts also the expression of the ideas which communicate truth? It rather depends on what is verbalized, and to whom. To raise the subject, as you did with your conundrum, as to invite closer examination of the nature of thought, ideas, and verbalization, and thence the nature of reality.

   In the context of dharma teachers and students, I would imagine a person who claims to not have thoughts is referring to the stream of judgments emitted by those mental contents identified with ego.

   There are the thoughts of ego, which are delusion, and there are the thoughts of god, which are reality.

   Who do you think you are? (Open your mouth and you are lost. Thwack!)

terry

Thanks!


Let’s go back a bit here…
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …
  1. Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
  2. Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
  3. Transmit the communications to other person.
  4. “Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
  5. Convey that you received the response
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
  1. First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
  2. Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
  3. You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
  4. Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
  5. Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.


Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...

so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 6:26 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
terry:
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


   I think you have this backwards. Talking to yourself is what crazy people do. Having ideas is sane and wholesome. Verbalizing them is natural.

   People who say they don't have thoughts are making a statement, not of fact, but to arouse a reaction. What is thought? The mental commentary of a ghost-like alter ego, which drops away as one becomes sane, or are thoughts also the expression of the ideas which communicate truth? It rather depends on what is verbalized, and to whom. To raise the subject, as you did with your conundrum, as to invite closer examination of the nature of thought, ideas, and verbalization, and thence the nature of reality.

   In the context of dharma teachers and students, I would imagine a person who claims to not have thoughts is referring to the stream of judgments emitted by those mental contents identified with ego.

   There are the thoughts of ego, which are delusion, and there are the thoughts of god, which are reality.

   Who do you think you are? (Open your mouth and you are lost. Thwack!)

terry

Thanks!


Let’s go back a bit here…
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …
  1. Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
  2. Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
  3. Transmit the communications to other person.
  4. “Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
  5. Convey that you received the response
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
  1. First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
  2. Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
  3. You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
  4. Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
  5. Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.


Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...

so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that

Geez...took me far too long to find a link to this...

koan...

[font=lyon-text, Georgia, Cambria, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]CASE #42:    Hui-ke Offers His Arm[font=lyon-text, Georgia, Cambria, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Bodhidharma sat in a cave for nine years gazing at the wall. Hui-ke arrived to inquire about the dharma, but Bodhidharma refused to teach him. Finally, taking a knife, Hui-ke cut off his own arm and presented it as an offering to Bodhidharma, who agreed to become his teacher.

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/green-koans-case-42-hui-ke-offers-his-arm/

Rational???

Happy thoughts???

It's a test...(not quite Voight-Kampff but certainly close).

It's a test. Of the "extract engine"  and the context...(thanks Franke Heile)

And imagine: they both can be "worked on" with a practice that does NOT INVOLVE SPEAKING TO PEOPLE.

As in: absolute silence at "monastery".

There are so many mechanisms here that should be plainly obvious - if you aren't busy trying to "pin" something down to a map.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

The map is absolutely not the territory...this was realized everywhere else a very long long time ago...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 8:57 PM as a reply to Zachary.
Zachary:
terry
   
A subject which thinks is the creator of thinking (cogito ergo sum); this is entirely circular, one t
hinks one is, but one is not. Thinking in itself - preforming words for speech - is not necessarily an I-function. It's organic, like passing gas, or sneezing, or laughing. One wouldn't want to sneeze all the time, only when appropriate. To not-I, thinking just happens, speech just happens, ideas occur to one beyond thought and may or may not find expression. No I, no-I, has anything to do with it. The material world and the intelligible world are continuous, and the separation of an I tfrom its thoughts embedded in its worlds is artificial, dualistic. "I" am no more my thoughts than I am the universe, and no less.

Yes, I understand the agency-less and owner-less nature of thought. For the most part, it has been a lived experience for many months now over here. What Vinay Gupta, Gary Weber, Bernadette Roberts and Yuri are describing seems to be something different, a step further. They are stating that there are no thoughts, that is, there are no images or language, fragments of language, whatever, rattling around in the spatial area where the "head" is, regardless of who's thoughts or images they happen to be. This seems to be an entirely different claim that I don't understand. I imagine a human body-mind, even fully awakened, still relies on a causal flow of images and language to perform many of its functions, though I am certainly open to hearing about how this would work in a body-mind empty of all thoughts. 


   There is a being in me, a person who is me, that is a complete idiot, and knows nothing, but is happy about everything and has a crooked grin even in the darkest of times. S/he never speaks, never thinks or knows anything, but always seems vaguely pleased with whatever is going on, and especially is amused when I am most agitated. This being I know for sure is my deepest self but I rarely identify with it. One day my friend and I will go home together.

terry



from wikipedia


The Rig Veda samhita 1.164.20-22, Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.1-2, and Svetasvatara Upanisad 4.6-7, speak of two birds, one perched on the branch of the tree, which signifies the body, and eating its fruit, the other merely watching.

Rig Veda samhita says:

1.164.20 Two birds associated together, and mutual friends, take refuge in the same tree; one of them eats the sweet fig; the other abstaining from food, merely looks on.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 9:37 PM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:
The five moral precepts are:

to refrain from taking life, ie killing any living creature
to refrain from taking what is not freely given, ie theft
to refrain from misuse of the senses or sexual misconduct, ie overindulgence in sex or committing sexual offences
to refrain from wrong speech, ie lying or gossiping
to refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind, ie drugs or alcohol

As a vegetarian myself I agree it's good for practice. Not exactly a modern dietary phenomenon though. Sid's Jain contemporaries pulled it off just fine, and criticized him over it. Allegedly it even led to a split in the sangha. But we're getting into the weeds here aren't we?

I once had a chance to talk with with some Vajrayana bhikkunis who embarked on strict no-kill practice like you describe. They mentioned a big part of this practice was coming to terms with the fact that following precepts perfectly is not possible, even under ideal ascetic conditions and with the best intentions.

I'm sure most modern householders break down and have an unskillfull beer (Or a coffee) now and then, despite the precept.  So I'm going to maintain it's relevant and in keeping with the purposes of this forum to point out multiple corroborating reports of a potential phenomenal hazard multiplier. That gives good reason to follow that precept more closely than a modern practitioner might otherwise be inclined.


aloha milo,

   The precepts are guidelines, if they were rules we would have another dogmatic religion on our hands and have no wiggle room at all. They are simple-minded ideas on the order of "stay on the road and don't go into the ditch."

   We can't keep any of the precepts, I transgress them all many times every day, in their extended senses if not literally. It's ok. We do the best we can. And that's the idea. In buddhism, being completely free of ego is the ideal, the freedom of the arhat from self-interest and consequent suffering our (distant) goal. If anyone thinks they have achieved that, they are even more deluded than usual. Yet we can keep this in mind as an ideal and try to be as free of ego as we can.Knowing that being self-satsfied with our "progress" is just more ego, more judgment of good and bad, more clinging; more attachment and more suffering. When we know we are struggling, we are satisfied with small gains. And the only real progress is slow, gradual progress. Sudden enlightenment is like lightning at night: you at once see the whole landscape in perfect clarity, and know it to be real, but just as suddenly it all disappears, leaving true and perfect knowledge and faith but not immediate vision, which our glimpse has made us realize is a human potential.

   The precepts are by no means enough. They only tell us what to refrain from, not what to do. The buddha was reluctant to tell people what to do, believing as he did that once a person understood the basics of the dharma they were prepared to face life on their own. After a thorough explanation of the dharma he would say, "Now is the time to do as you will."

   The thing about vegetarianism (I've been a vegetarian over fifty years; I've never eaten a macdonald's hamburger and god willing never will) is that all of our virtues and vices apply to the whole range of sentient beings, not just humans. If you are kind, compassionate, sympathetic and equanimous, the wholesale cruelty inflicted on the animals who are so much like us (even sharing our viruses), not to mention the destruction of our whole ecosystem, must affect you. We might give a thought, at least, for the poor animal we are eating, and ask ourselves if terminating the life of that creature was a reflection of the values we would like to see prevail in our global community.

may all beings - I mean all beings - be happy,
terry



the four brahma viharas:

Loving-kindness (Pali: metta)
Compassion (karuna)
Sympathetic joy (mudita)
Equanimity (upekkha).

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 9:47 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
The five moral precepts are:

to refrain from taking life, ie killing any living creature
to refrain from taking what is not freely given, ie theft
to refrain from misuse of the senses or sexual misconduct, ie overindulgence in sex or committing sexual offences
to refrain from wrong speech, ie lying or gossiping
to refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind, ie drugs or alcohol

As a vegetarian myself I agree it's good for practice. Not exactly a modern dietary phenomenon though. Sid's Jain contemporaries pulled it off just fine, and criticized him over it. Allegedly it even led to a split in the sangha. But we're getting into the weeds here aren't we?

I once had a chance to talk with with some Vajrayana bhikkunis who embarked on strict no-kill practice like you describe. They mentioned a big part of this practice was coming to terms with the fact that following precepts perfectly is not possible, even under ideal ascetic conditions and with the best intentions.

I'm sure most modern householders break down and have an unskillfull beer (Or a coffee) now and then, despite the precept.  So I'm going to maintain it's relevant and in keeping with the purposes of this forum to point out multiple corroborating reports of a potential phenomenal hazard multiplier. That gives good reason to follow that precept more closely than a modern practitioner might otherwise be inclined.


aloha milo,

   The precepts are guidelines, if they were rules we would have another dogmatic religion on our hands and have no wiggle room at all. They are simple-minded ideas on the order of "stay on the road and don't go into the ditch."

   We can't keep any of the precepts, I transgress them all many times every day, in their extended senses if not literally. It's ok. We do the best we can. And that's the idea. In buddhism, being completely free of ego is the ideal, the freedom of the arhat from self-interest and consequent suffering our (distant) goal. If anyone thinks they have achieved that, they are even more deluded than usual. Yet we can keep this in mind as an ideal and try to be as free of ego as we can.Knowing that being self-satsfied with our "progress" is just more ego, more judgment of good and bad, more clinging; more attachment and more suffering. When we know we are struggling, we are satisfied with small gains. And the only real progress is slow, gradual progress. Sudden enlightenment is like lightning at night: you at once see the whole landscape in perfect clarity, and know it to be real, but just as suddenly it all disappears, leaving true and perfect knowledge and faith but not immediate vision, which our glimpse has made us realize is a human potential.

   The precepts are by no means enough. They only tell us what to refrain from, not what to do. The buddha was reluctant to tell people what to do, believing as he did that once a person understood the basics of the dharma they were prepared to face life on their own. After a thorough explanation of the dharma he would say, "Now is the time to do as you will."

   The thing about vegetarianism (I've been a vegetarian over fifty years; I've never eaten a macdonald's hamburger and god willing never will) is that all of our virtues and vices apply to the whole range of sentient beings, not just humans. If you are kind, compassionate, sympathetic and equanimous, the wholesale cruelty inflicted on the animals who are so much like us (even sharing our viruses), not to mention the destruction of our whole ecosystem, must affect you. We might give a thought, at least, for the poor animal we are eating, and ask ourselves if terminating the life of that creature was a reflection of the values we would like to see prevail in our global community.

may all beings - I mean all beings - be happy,
terry



the four brahma viharas:

Loving-kindness (Pali: metta)
Compassion (karuna)
Sympathetic joy (mudita)
Equanimity (upekkha).

one of my favorite professors giving a talk to the ibn arabi socety on why we should not feel superior to animals:



https://ibnarabisociety.org/the-wisdom-of-animals-william-chittick/


the audio version, about thirty minutes, can be found here:

https://ibnarabisociety.org/podcasts-and-videos-various-part-1/#chittick-wisdom

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 10:10 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
terry:
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


   I think you have this backwards. Talking to yourself is what crazy people do. Having ideas is sane and wholesome. Verbalizing them is natural.

   People who say they don't have thoughts are making a statement, not of fact, but to arouse a reaction. What is thought? The mental commentary of a ghost-like alter ego, which drops away as one becomes sane, or are thoughts also the expression of the ideas which communicate truth? It rather depends on what is verbalized, and to whom. To raise the subject, as you did with your conundrum, as to invite closer examination of the nature of thought, ideas, and verbalization, and thence the nature of reality.

   In the context of dharma teachers and students, I would imagine a person who claims to not have thoughts is referring to the stream of judgments emitted by those mental contents identified with ego.

   There are the thoughts of ego, which are delusion, and there are the thoughts of god, which are reality.

   Who do you think you are? (Open your mouth and you are lost. Thwack!)

terry

Thanks!


Let’s go back a bit here…
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …
  1. Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
  2. Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
  3. Transmit the communications to other person.
  4. “Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
  5. Convey that you received the response
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
  1. First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
  2. Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
  3. You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
  4. Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
  5. Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.


Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...

so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that


yo yuri,

   Communication is heart to heart. What you are talking about is not communication, it is a reductive exercise which demolishes what it sets out to illuminate. The sufi metaphor would be a boy who pulls the wings off of a fly, the head, the legs, the thorax, and then looks at the pile of parts and wonders, where did the fly go?

terry

 



from "the way of chuang tzu" trans merton


DUKE HWAN AND THE WHEELWRIGHT


The world values books, and thinks that in so doing it is valuing Tao.
But books contain words only. And yet there is something else which
gives value to the books. Not the words only, nor the thought in the words,
but something else within the thought, swinging it in a certain direction
that words cannot apprehend. But it is the words themselves that the
world values when it commits them to books: and though the world values them,
these words are worthless as long as that which gives them value is not held in honor.

That which man apprehends by observation is only out­ward form and color,
name and noise: and he thinks that this will put him in possession of Tao.
Form and color, name and sound, do not reach to reality. That is why:
"He who knows does not say, he who says, does not know." 
How then is the world going to know Tao through words?

Duke Hwan of Khi,
First in his dynasty,
Sat under his canopy
Reading his philosophy;
And Phien the wheelwright
\Vas out in the yard
Making a wheel.
Phien laid aside
Hammer and chisel,
Climbed the steps,
And said to Duke Hwan:
"May I ask you, Lord,
What is this you are
Reading?"
  
The Duke said:
"The experts. The authorities."
And Phien asked:
"Alive or dead?"
"Dead a long time."
"Then," said the wheelwright,
"You are reading only
The dirt they left behind."

Then the Duke replied:
"What do you know about it?
You are only a wheelwright.
You had better give me a good explanation
Or else you must die."

The wheelwright said:
"Let us look at the affair
From my point of view.
When I make wheels
If I go easy, they fall apart,
If I am too rough, they do not fit.
If I am neither too easy nor too violent
They come out right. The work is what
I want it to be.
You cannot put this into words:
You just have to know how it is.
I cannot even tell my own son exactly how it is done,
And my own son cannot learn it from me.
So here I am, seventy years old,
Still making wheels!
The men of old
Took all they really knew
With them to the grave.
And so, Lord, what you are reading there
Is only the dirt they left behind them."
[xiii. ro.]
 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 10:35 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
Milo:
The five moral precepts are:

to refrain from taking life, ie killing any living creature
to refrain from taking what is not freely given, ie theft
to refrain from misuse of the senses or sexual misconduct, ie overindulgence in sex or committing sexual offences
to refrain from wrong speech, ie lying or gossiping
to refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind, ie drugs or alcohol

As a vegetarian myself I agree it's good for practice. Not exactly a modern dietary phenomenon though. Sid's Jain contemporaries pulled it off just fine, and criticized him over it. Allegedly it even led to a split in the sangha. But we're getting into the weeds here aren't we?

I once had a chance to talk with with some Vajrayana bhikkunis who embarked on strict no-kill practice like you describe. They mentioned a big part of this practice was coming to terms with the fact that following precepts perfectly is not possible, even under ideal ascetic conditions and with the best intentions.

I'm sure most modern householders break down and have an unskillfull beer (Or a coffee) now and then, despite the precept.  So I'm going to maintain it's relevant and in keeping with the purposes of this forum to point out multiple corroborating reports of a potential phenomenal hazard multiplier. That gives good reason to follow that precept more closely than a modern practitioner might otherwise be inclined.


aloha milo,

   The precepts are guidelines, if they were rules we would have another dogmatic religion on our hands and have no wiggle room at all. They are simple-minded ideas on the order of "stay on the road and don't go into the ditch."

   We can't keep any of the precepts, I transgress them all many times every day, in their extended senses if not literally. It's ok. We do the best we can. And that's the idea. In buddhism, being completely free of ego is the ideal, the freedom of the arhat from self-interest and consequent suffering our (distant) goal. If anyone thinks they have achieved that, they are even more deluded than usual. Yet we can keep this in mind as an ideal and try to be as free of ego as we can.Knowing that being self-satsfied with our "progress" is just more ego, more judgment of good and bad, more clinging; more attachment and more suffering. When we know we are struggling, we are satisfied with small gains. And the only real progress is slow, gradual progress. Sudden enlightenment is like lightning at night: you at once see the whole landscape in perfect clarity, and know it to be real, but just as suddenly it all disappears, leaving true and perfect knowledge and faith but not immediate vision, which our glimpse has made us realize is a human potential.

   The precepts are by no means enough. They only tell us what to refrain from, not what to do. The buddha was reluctant to tell people what to do, believing as he did that once a person understood the basics of the dharma they were prepared to face life on their own. After a thorough explanation of the dharma he would say, "Now is the time to do as you will."

   The thing about vegetarianism (I've been a vegetarian over fifty years; I've never eaten a macdonald's hamburger and god willing never will) is that all of our virtues and vices apply to the whole range of sentient beings, not just humans. If you are kind, compassionate, sympathetic and equanimous, the wholesale cruelty inflicted on the animals who are so much like us (even sharing our viruses), not to mention the destruction of our whole ecosystem, must affect you. We might give a thought, at least, for the poor animal we are eating, and ask ourselves if terminating the life of that creature was a reflection of the values we would like to see prevail in our global community.

may all beings - I mean all beings - be happy,
terry



the four brahma viharas:

Loving-kindness (Pali: metta)
Compassion (karuna)
Sympathetic joy (mudita)
Equanimity (upekkha).


Well said. You are more or less preaching to the choir. I do practice similarly, although I've never developed into much of an open evangelist about it.

That's likely my rural upbringing speaking. We are raised on hunting, fishing, and ranching in my area, so vegetarianism has been a real eccentric's trait until recently, and not something one necessarily wants to go waving a flag around about without some forethought.

As far as moral development goes, I agree: may our gradual trajectory to perfection continue unabated : )

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 11:23 PM as a reply to terry.
I just want to respond to one thing that caught my eye, the accusation of cruelty toward animals. I would be careful using the word cruelty, because if you overapply a word like that, you can lose credibility. If you go talk to people who raise animals for their meat, I think you would find genuine concern for the happiness of the animals, and care taken to avoid their needless suffering (if the animals are to die for meat). So I think your point would be better made if you suggested there is still more needless suffering in that we can most likely go without eating meat at all, or vastly less of it. Cruelty is more like sadism.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
7/31/20 11:33 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Yuri K:
terry:
Chris Marti:
To anyone who wishes to seriously address the "no thoughts" conundrum, like Sterling, Tim and Ni Nurta:

I think a lot of folks, possibly the majority, believe "thoughts" to be mental verbalizations. So when they say "I have no thoughts" they mean they don't have a language-like mental narrative going on. I believe this is what you are getting at, Tim, when you say:

My other experience of "no thoughts" has come in a few episodes of what i think of as regression to some kind of primal trauma condition, in which under extreme duress my mind stops understanding language as language and it all turns into flavors of nopise colored by the tone, often of fear and urgency, since in my extreme state at that point i am usually scaring the fuck out of whoever is trying to talk to me.

I don't define thoughts as mental narrative. I have a more comprehensive definition. Thoughts don't require mental verbalization. I can do math in my head without narrating the process - but that's thinking, IMHO. I can envision a dog walking across a street - and I can do that without narration. That's thinking, IMHO.

Thoughts?  emoticon


   I think you have this backwards. Talking to yourself is what crazy people do. Having ideas is sane and wholesome. Verbalizing them is natural.

   People who say they don't have thoughts are making a statement, not of fact, but to arouse a reaction. What is thought? The mental commentary of a ghost-like alter ego, which drops away as one becomes sane, or are thoughts also the expression of the ideas which communicate truth? It rather depends on what is verbalized, and to whom. To raise the subject, as you did with your conundrum, as to invite closer examination of the nature of thought, ideas, and verbalization, and thence the nature of reality.

   In the context of dharma teachers and students, I would imagine a person who claims to not have thoughts is referring to the stream of judgments emitted by those mental contents identified with ego.

   There are the thoughts of ego, which are delusion, and there are the thoughts of god, which are reality.

   Who do you think you are? (Open your mouth and you are lost. Thwack!)

terry

Thanks!


Let’s go back a bit here…
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …
  1. Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
  2. Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
  3. Transmit the communications to other person.
  4. “Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
  5. Convey that you received the response
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
  1. First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
  2. Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
  3. You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
  4. Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
  5. Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.


Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...

so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that

Geez...took me far too long to find a link to this...

koan...

[font=lyon-text, Georgia, Cambria, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]CASE #42:    Hui-ke Offers His Arm[font=lyon-text, Georgia, Cambria, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Bodhidharma sat in a cave for nine years gazing at the wall. Hui-ke arrived to inquire about the dharma, but Bodhidharma refused to teach him. Finally, taking a knife, Hui-ke cut off his own arm and presented it as an offering to Bodhidharma, who agreed to become his teacher.

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/green-koans-case-42-hui-ke-offers-his-arm/

Rational???

Happy thoughts???

It's a test...(not quite Voight-Kampff but certainly close).

It's a test. Of the "extract engine"  and the context...(thanks Franke Heile)

And imagine: they both can be "worked on" with a practice that does NOT INVOLVE SPEAKING TO PEOPLE.

As in: absolute silence at "monastery".

There are so many mechanisms here that should be plainly obvious - if you aren't busy trying to "pin" something down to a map.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

The map is absolutely not the territory...this was realized everywhere else a very long long time ago...


   "After all, bodhidharma only had one disciple and he was a cripple."

~mumon

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/1/20 12:55 AM as a reply to Brian.
Brian:
I just want to respond to one thing that caught my eye, the accusation of cruelty toward animals. I would be careful using the word cruelty, because if you overapply a word like that, you can lose credibility. If you go talk to people who raise animals for their meat, I think you would find genuine concern for the happiness of the animals, and care taken to avoid their needless suffering (if the animals are to die for meat). So I think your point would be better made if you suggested there is still more needless suffering in that we can most likely go without eating meat at all, or vastly less of it. Cruelty is more like sadism.

aloha brian,

   Farmers who kill animals for meat are highly unlikely to show their animal property any love, unless it is for the profits they provide. 4H club programs are designed to destroy any compassion young future farmers might feel for their pet meat animals. They are not sadists, no, they don't get off sexually by watching animals scream in pain. They are cruel because it is profitable to turn a blind eye and a cold heart to suffering which is unnecessary and destructive. Unnecessary because no one with access to a supermarket actualy needs to eat meat. Destructive because the energy and resources that go into a pound of meat are vastly greater than those going into a pound of grain, not to mention climate change and the strip mining of oceanic protein until now less than 10% is left.

   Here on the big island people kill magnificent 1000lb marlin for sport, and you can see them at the dock taking pictures and high fiving while a creature worth many of these fools is expiring in agony on the deck. Imagine a hook through your palate sufficient to lift your entire weight out of its element. (O the horror) These animals cry, feel fear, and suffer at the hands of people who think nothing of their suffering. Does the willful ignorance of the perpetrators of these horrors excuse them from a charge of cruelty? They would reject the charge, surely. But we are buddhists. Animals are sentient beings. Cruelty at this level of ignorance is what makes our society the dog eat dog ratrace that it is.

   Cows eat the ti leaves over my back fence, they love ti leaves more than the carrots and avocados we usually feed the horses (when the cowboys aren't looking). The cowboys (my neighbors one house over) are nice people, they love their dog, they care deeply for their horses, and they manage their cows according to industry standards. But there are times when the cows are bellowing all night, and I know they have done something very cruel to make them holler like that. I have pigs running all over and roosting under the trees in my front yard. They will likely be hunted down and shot, possibly eaten but often just killed because they are a nuisance, and people enjoy killing.

   The idea that the animal slaughter industry might care about animal cruelty is quite incredible. Try read up or watch video on slaughter houses, and how pigs and chickens are raised, or lambs for slaughter. Some animals never see the light of day. If you talk to people who profit from animal cruelty they will deny and obfuscarte, of course. And appeal to your appetite and indifference to the welfare of other species. Besides, out of sight, out of mind, and they dye the partially rotted ("tenderized") muscle tissue red and package it in neat little containers labeled "food." When my wife was a teenager - when I first knew her - she wouldn't eat fish because she felt those little eyes were staring at her accusingly, but tuna fish was ok because it came in little round cans.

   Eat mindfully. Practice non-violence. Bon appetit.

   I'm not especially worried about my credibility. I never lie so I'm often not believed. Goes with the territory.


terry

terry

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/1/20 5:05 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Hi, Yuri,

Let’s go back a bit here…
 
Good idea. You have picked an interesting forum to try your theories of communication, i must say. You seem like a ronin type to me, a samurai without a shogun to serve, and you come in here to pick a fight with this realm’s loyal samurais. It makes a great story. And it’s all fun and games, until someone loses their head.
 
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …

Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
 
I am taking “lossy compression” as a given idiosyncratic term requiring massive amounts of homework I haven't got time for, which you nevertheless presumptuously indicate is crucial to understand, for your communication. With this much noise in the channel, you should understand we are starting in a pretty deep hole here, yes?
 
Transmit the communications to other person.
“Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
Convey that you received the response
 
I copy that, Yuri Pot Stirrer. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, reading you 2 by 5, with noise and distortion. Have received your response, conveying that. Over.
 
 
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
 
Include reference to your dealer, or at least substance of choice, for optimal harmonization over rough channels.
 
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
 
WTF here, copy that YPS. You are breaking up both ways. Do not fire until you are sure of your target, do you copy? I read you two by five and garbled. Repeat, I read you badly, and garbled, over.
 
 
First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
 
Copy that, YSP. Bright red toenails no threat. I am wearing flowers in my hair, do you copy? WTF repeats, am wearing flowers in my hair, no threat here, recognize toenails red as no threat. Over.
 
Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context.
 
YPS, this is WTF, i read you four by five. Maps fucked up here, do you copy? Still using maps from before birth of Christ, terrain not indicated accurately, coordinates all off, maps not to be trusted. Do you copy? Fire coordinates are useless, do you copy?  Repeat, old fucking maps, maps useless. Don't shoot, no friendly fire. Over.
 
 
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
 
 YPs, WTF. Read you five by five and clear here. No shit, sherlock. Over.
 
 
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.

YPS, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here. Swimming analogy boring. Do you copy? Swimming analogy waste of air time. Over.

Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

 
YPS, WTF. Copy interest, and concur. What is “ML”? Repeat, do not recognize signal “ML.” Over.
 
My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...s
 
so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that
 
 
Yuri Pot Stirrer, this is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Am taking friendly fire and sword assaults from unknown sources. Keep your fucking imaginary numbers to yourself on this channel, as far as I’m concerned, until the shooting and swordplay stop. Do you copy? Jesus Fucking Christ, man, imaginary fucking numbers? What desk are YOU at? Over.
 
love, tim, over and out.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/2/20 8:26 AM as a reply to Milo.


I'm that "nice engineer"...but I'm really not that..."nice"...



I just wanted to clarify that it is standard procedure to change some characteristics as part of anonymizing somebody who might otherwise be recognized from the context in a written text, to protect the integrity of the person. Daniel was just following the ethical protocol. Sorry to hear that you find that upsetting. If it’s any consolation, I think you have now made it sufficiently clear that you aren’t really that nice, so you can stop feeling misrepresented.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/2/20 8:34 AM as a reply to Milo.
Milo:

Next up: coffee? : )


I haven’t been able to drink coffee or tea at all for many years, due to intolerance. It feels like intoxication and I get sick. Apparently things like that can happen when you are in a Kundalini process.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/2/20 1:58 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Hi, Yuri,

Let’s go back a bit here…
 
Good idea. You have picked an interesting forum to try your theories of communication, i must say. You seem like a ronin type to me, a samurai without a shogun to serve, and you come in here to pick a fight with this realm’s loyal samurais. It makes a great story. And it’s all fun and games, until someone loses their head.
 
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …

Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
 
I am taking “lossy compression” as a given idiosyncratic term requiring massive amounts of homework I haven't got time for, which you nevertheless presumptuously indicate is crucial to understand, for your communication. With this much noise in the channel, you should understand we are starting in a pretty deep hole here, yes?
 
Transmit the communications to other person.
“Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
Convey that you received the response
 
I copy that, Yuri Pot Stirrer. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, reading you 2 by 5, with noise and distortion. Have received your response, conveying that. Over.
 
 
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
 
Include reference to your dealer, or at least substance of choice, for optimal harmonization over rough channels.
 
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
 
WTF here, copy that YPS. You are breaking up both ways. Do not fire until you are sure of your target, do you copy? I read you two by five and garbled. Repeat, I read you badly, and garbled, over.
 
 
First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
 
Copy that, YSP. Bright red toenails no threat. I am wearing flowers in my hair, do you copy? WTF repeats, am wearing flowers in my hair, no threat here, recognize toenails red as no threat. Over.
 
Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context.
 
YPS, this is WTF, i read you four by five. Maps fucked up here, do you copy? Still using maps from before birth of Christ, terrain not indicated accurately, coordinates all off, maps not to be trusted. Do you copy? Fire coordinates are useless, do you copy?  Repeat, old fucking maps, maps useless. Don't shoot, no friendly fire. Over.
 
 
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
 
 YPs, WTF. Read you five by five and clear here. No shit, sherlock. Over.
 
 
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.

YPS, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here. Swimming analogy boring. Do you copy? Swimming analogy waste of air time. Over.

Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

 
YPS, WTF. Copy interest, and concur. What is “ML”? Repeat, do not recognize signal “ML.” Over.
 
My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...s
 
so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that
 
 
Yuri Pot Stirrer, this is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Am taking friendly fire and sword assaults from unknown sources. Keep your fucking imaginary numbers to yourself on this channel, as far as I’m concerned, until the shooting and swordplay stop. Do you copy? Jesus Fucking Christ, man, imaginary fucking numbers? What desk are YOU at? Over.
 
love, tim, over and out.

Successful splash-down: SpaceX Dragon crew...

Next step "The Expanse"? [Note: I'm a really big fan, particularly of Miller]

Possibly "Second Foundation" in the mix? C'mon...Foundation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg

I like your reponse, a lot, Tim.

There were several aspects to my post(s) here. Notably that I have posted many times here but they've all been "lost to the ether" along the way...consider that how you may.

I do have some very interesting ML code that I now had a chance to run here - "stimulus, response" and all that. Same for practices and how some of this stuff pans out... 

May you live in interesting times.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/2/20 7:31 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Milo:

Next up: coffee? : )


I haven’t been able to drink coffee or tea at all for many years, due to intolerance. It feels like intoxication and I get sick. Apparently things like that can happen when you are in a Kundalini process.


Gateways through light and shadow. Frater Ashen.

Make sure you get the copy that has real Silver...

Page 303...a good place to start.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/3/20 4:36 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Thanks for the tip! It's a very expensive book, though, at least here in Sweden, so it will probably have to wait. I'm curious, why do you think I should turn to ceremonial magick? Do they deal with illnesses like that? Or do you think magick is somehow involved? And why is the silver important?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/3/20 5:10 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Tim Farrington:
Hi, Yuri,

Let’s go back a bit here…
 
Good idea. You have picked an interesting forum to try your theories of communication, i must say. You seem like a ronin type to me, a samurai without a shogun to serve, and you come in here to pick a fight with this realm’s loyal samurais. It makes a great story. And it’s all fun and games, until someone loses their head.
 
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …

Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
 
I am taking “lossy compression” as a given idiosyncratic term requiring massive amounts of homework I haven't got time for, which you nevertheless presumptuously indicate is crucial to understand, for your communication. With this much noise in the channel, you should understand we are starting in a pretty deep hole here, yes?
 
Transmit the communications to other person.
“Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
Convey that you received the response
 
I copy that, Yuri Pot Stirrer. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, reading you 2 by 5, with noise and distortion. Have received your response, conveying that. Over.
 
 
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
 
Include reference to your dealer, or at least substance of choice, for optimal harmonization over rough channels.
 
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
 
WTF here, copy that YPS. You are breaking up both ways. Do not fire until you are sure of your target, do you copy? I read you two by five and garbled. Repeat, I read you badly, and garbled, over.
 
 
First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
 
Copy that, YSP. Bright red toenails no threat. I am wearing flowers in my hair, do you copy? WTF repeats, am wearing flowers in my hair, no threat here, recognize toenails red as no threat. Over.
 
Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context.
 
YPS, this is WTF, i read you four by five. Maps fucked up here, do you copy? Still using maps from before birth of Christ, terrain not indicated accurately, coordinates all off, maps not to be trusted. Do you copy? Fire coordinates are useless, do you copy?  Repeat, old fucking maps, maps useless. Don't shoot, no friendly fire. Over.
 
 
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
 
 YPs, WTF. Read you five by five and clear here. No shit, sherlock. Over.
 
 
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.

YPS, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here. Swimming analogy boring. Do you copy? Swimming analogy waste of air time. Over.

Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

 
YPS, WTF. Copy interest, and concur. What is “ML”? Repeat, do not recognize signal “ML.” Over.
 
My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...s
 
so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that
 
 
Yuri Pot Stirrer, this is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Am taking friendly fire and sword assaults from unknown sources. Keep your fucking imaginary numbers to yourself on this channel, as far as I’m concerned, until the shooting and swordplay stop. Do you copy? Jesus Fucking Christ, man, imaginary fucking numbers? What desk are YOU at? Over.
 
love, tim, over and out.

Successful splash-down: SpaceX Dragon crew...

Next step "The Expanse"? [Note: I'm a really big fan, particularly of Miller]

Possibly "Second Foundation" in the mix? C'mon...Foundation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg

I like your reponse, a lot, Tim.

There were several aspects to my post(s) here. Notably that I have posted many times here but they've all been "lost to the ether" along the way...consider that how you may.

I do have some very interesting ML code that I now had a chance to run here - "stimulus, response" and all that. Same for practices and how some of this stuff pans out... 

May you live in interesting times.
 Isn't "May you live in interesting times" a Chinese curse, lol. But we do, don't we?

Successful splash-down: SpaceX Dragon crew...
and on to Space X Dragon 2.

Next step "The Expanse"? [Note: I'm a really big fan, particularly of Miller]

it's all homework with you! I'm a newbie in all your genres, and must google every reference! Fuck you!

expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Josephus_Miller_(Books)

I do see a certain affinity with the Josephus Miller character myself.

Possibly "Second Foundation" in the mix? C'mon...Foundation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg
 okay, this sounds good, sixty years in the making, Asimov was that far at least ahead of his time. 

Now I just have to wait for AppleTV to make their money and allow a larger release. I can't afford that niche TV stuff.
I like your reponse, a lot, Tim.

Well, maybe i over shot. I was just trying to keep you from leaving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75AgrH5eqc


There were several aspects to my post(s) here. Notably that I have posted many times here but they've all been "lost to the ether" along the way...consider that how you may.

I do have some very interesting ML code that I now had a chance to run here - "stimulus, response" and all that. Same for practices and how some of this stuff pans out... 

I still don't know what "ML" means. 

Information theory here, clearly. Need more bits.
May you live in interesting times.

yeah, fuck you too.

love, tim

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/4/20 4:38 PM as a reply to Tim Farrington.
Tim Farrington:
Yuri K:
Tim Farrington:
Hi, Yuri,

Let’s go back a bit here…
 
Good idea. You have picked an interesting forum to try your theories of communication, i must say. You seem like a ronin type to me, a samurai without a shogun to serve, and you come in here to pick a fight with this realm’s loyal samurais. It makes a great story. And it’s all fun and games, until someone loses their head.
 
Premise #1: Human-to-human communication is an inherently lossy exercise. And by this statement I do mean to imply the following:
Communication. As in “human-to-human” communication. (“Pragmatics of Human Communication” by Paul Watzlawic. I do like a good reference other than some cheap slagging…Obvious reference to goat boy here). MCBT #2 folks should easily keep up (and offer yer usual awesome feedback) …

Cognition [conceptualize some complex thought(s)]
Lossy compression to some form of communication (Milo..and that is a great name, BTW…let’s start here: “i^2= -1”)
 
I am taking “lossy compression” as a given idiosyncratic term requiring massive amounts of homework I haven't got time for, which you nevertheless presumptuously indicate is crucial to understand, for your communication. With this much noise in the channel, you should understand we are starting in a pretty deep hole here, yes?
 
Transmit the communications to other person.
“Extract the files” (per yer favourite Microsoft command). Note: I hope there are others here who can actually “extract” this concept I’m trying to convey in the math listed above)
Convey that you received the response
 
I copy that, Yuri Pot Stirrer. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, reading you 2 by 5, with noise and distortion. Have received your response, conveying that. Over.
 
 
And a bunch of folks just read this and are already writing “Substance abuse”.
 
Include reference to your dealer, or at least substance of choice, for optimal harmonization over rough channels.
 
Let me give you a somewhat broader definition here: when you talk to someone else this process (act of comms) involves lossy compression for both the outgoing message as well as the received message:
 
WTF here, copy that YPS. You are breaking up both ways. Do not fire until you are sure of your target, do you copy? I read you two by five and garbled. Repeat, I read you badly, and garbled, over.
 
 
First you generate a highly complex concept. Could be many things (as possible examples) from “I’m not a threat” all the way down to “I like to paint my toe nails bright red”
 
Copy that, YSP. Bright red toenails no threat. I am wearing flowers in my hair, do you copy? WTF repeats, am wearing flowers in my hair, no threat here, recognize toenails red as no threat. Over.
 
Then you (well, part of your brain/cognition) performs a lossy compression on this concept and translates into some form of communication. (words, typed crap, perhaps an equation or even…tik tok)
You [verbalize, write, make some map, publish the video, etc]
Other person then has “extraction engine” run on your message
Other person’s “extraction engine” maps to their context.
 
YPS, this is WTF, i read you four by five. Maps fucked up here, do you copy? Still using maps from before birth of Christ, terrain not indicated accurately, coordinates all off, maps not to be trusted. Do you copy? Fire coordinates are useless, do you copy?  Repeat, old fucking maps, maps useless. Don't shoot, no friendly fire. Over.
 
 
Human-to-human comms is very lossy and inefficient.
 
 YPs, WTF. Read you five by five and clear here. No shit, sherlock. Over.
 
 
For those who disagree with Premise #1: please post your argument.
 
Premise #2: Maps are irrelevant. OK…A slightly larger concept but still.
I’ve always found Daniel’s response to my original email to be absolutely hilarious. Let’s go back to swimming.
“Witches float”.
This was “science” up until the mid 17th century (the 17th century was the century that lasted from January 1, 1601, to December 31, 1700).
Swimming. Is it a “science”???”
Does success at swimming depend on your study(ies) of fundamental mythology(ies) of local [sea/water] god(esses} and/or your transgressions against them? How about your studies of their “morality/ethics”?
[Maybe you need more goats? And additional note to Milo (my total bad here…you ever read anything from the “Bobiverse”?...cause I love the Bobiverse…]
Here’s an exercise: go and talk to at least one person that you know very well who is great at swimming. I actually recommend going and talking to at least two (hey, you gots lots of time for this…).
Ask get these folks to explain the high performance aspects of “swimming” to you – preferably live. And ask them for their “swimming” maps…
Let’s see the “maps”. Please…post your maps for swimming here…I will definitely monitor.

YPS, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here. Swimming analogy boring. Do you copy? Swimming analogy waste of air time. Over.

Note: this has been an interesting exercise. With any ML approach you always need the "negative" data set...

 
YPS, WTF. Copy interest, and concur. What is “ML”? Repeat, do not recognize signal “ML.” Over.
 
My bad: had to edit to try to get my equation: "i^2=-1" to get to display...and I'm still not sure that it will dislplay here...s
 
so here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

The interface here is rather...archaic but sure...I can deal with that...might post a good book or two now that
 
 
Yuri Pot Stirrer, this is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Am taking friendly fire and sword assaults from unknown sources. Keep your fucking imaginary numbers to yourself on this channel, as far as I’m concerned, until the shooting and swordplay stop. Do you copy? Jesus Fucking Christ, man, imaginary fucking numbers? What desk are YOU at? Over.
 
love, tim, over and out.

Successful splash-down: SpaceX Dragon crew...

Next step "The Expanse"? [Note: I'm a really big fan, particularly of Miller]

Possibly "Second Foundation" in the mix? C'mon...Foundation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg

I like your reponse, a lot, Tim.

There were several aspects to my post(s) here. Notably that I have posted many times here but they've all been "lost to the ether" along the way...consider that how you may.

I do have some very interesting ML code that I now had a chance to run here - "stimulus, response" and all that. Same for practices and how some of this stuff pans out... 

May you live in interesting times.
 Isn't "May you live in interesting times" a Chinese curse, lol. But we do, don't we?

Successful splash-down: SpaceX Dragon crew...
and on to Space X Dragon 2.

Next step "The Expanse"? [Note: I'm a really big fan, particularly of Miller]

it's all homework with you! I'm a newbie in all your genres, and must google every reference! Fuck you!

expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Josephus_Miller_(Books)

I do see a certain affinity with the Josephus Miller character myself.

Possibly "Second Foundation" in the mix? C'mon...Foundation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbPSA94Rqg
 okay, this sounds good, sixty years in the making, Asimov was that far at least ahead of his time. 

Now I just have to wait for AppleTV to make their money and allow a larger release. I can't afford that niche TV stuff.
I like your reponse, a lot, Tim.

Well, maybe i over shot. I was just trying to keep you from leaving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75AgrH5eqc


There were several aspects to my post(s) here. Notably that I have posted many times here but they've all been "lost to the ether" along the way...consider that how you may.

I do have some very interesting ML code that I now had a chance to run here - "stimulus, response" and all that. Same for practices and how some of this stuff pans out... 

I still don't know what "ML" means. 

Information theory here, clearly. Need more bits.
May you live in interesting times.

yeah, fuck you too.

love, tim

"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

TS Eliot...

ML...sorry..."Machine Learning" (ML). As in the current "second wave" of AI. I've been working on this for a number of years for various applications. As part of this discussion I will explain a bit. I've got some AI code that can take text input and then bin the person onto a map.

Go figure.

Of course, the real issue with ML/AI is that you need some concrete cases to train and, most importantly, test the neural network. And for my model I really needed some input based on emotion - it is pretty easy to "scrape" various websites for free info posted by people (the basic data) but not so easy to get the corner conditions.

Now...I'm not gonna' post more than that - hey, yer a very diverse group - since I think you can figure out a bunch here. 

"Human cognition"...

Here's some great discussion on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brslF-Cy3HU&t=604s

Again, I've worked on IVD molecular diagnostics devices for a long time so I would recommend:

- obviously some meditation technique(s)
- the preceding needs to include "energy work" as foundation (swimming training includes this)
- consider the genetic understanding we have

Cognition...I will point back to Heile...Or to the development of an infant.

I'm sure that you can figure some great things here....geez...I'm ether...

take care and, again, thanks for all the inputs to my ML/AI...

Ahhh....my bad...tiny edit here...

[My Taoist lineage includes a few aspects of genetics as well as their direct influence on early development. And if I were to mention topics such as qi, magik or other topics then I would point back to actual scientific discussions.

Very poorly phrased koan: where does your itch originate from?"

Explain why you just scratched your ear/ (some random body part)? 

Scratching takes a bunch of calories so....why do we scratch?

Is scratching part of your "conscious" activity? If not, why not?

Best!

"What is beatiful about the human genome?"]

EOM...

[[Edit #2...

Tim...I did try my best on this forum to add a reply...

Miller...

Such an interesting "character" there.

We're like a small hornet's nest (I would definitely not use the terms "bee's nest" here.

Will we make it further?

And how could this possibly weave back into this series of posts?

[[I think if you watch (well at least skip through but keep an "open mind")] of "the expanse" then you might have one view on where people could end up...

Or we just might might end up slicing/dicing it out...

I love the camp fire scene: "Final clue"...]]

Anyway...

handles...

And...cool...

I logged out and all this is...

Gone...

Referenced for later...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/4/20 5:01 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Thanks for the tip! It's a very expensive book, though, at least here in Sweden, so it will probably have to wait. I'm curious, why do you think I should turn to ceremonial magick? Do they deal with illnesses like that? Or do you think magick is somehow involved? And why is the silver important?


Hi Linda.

First, I do want to thank you, again. for your posts - as with others who have been very brave to post info regarding drug use and effects.

This information is very important in my experience.

I don't suggest you "turn" to anything other than what you feel that you need to.

That is the essence of Taoist tradition.

Only you know what you could/need/etc. "turn" to.

Swimming.

If you think you've learned to "float" (not like a witch, more like someone who is figuring this thing out) then do it...

Could be most of the others are still trying to be brave enough to wade into the shallow part of the pool.

Magik...Find a proper a teacher and learn from a person who knows this.

Note: there are many in EU who know this stuff. If you are having some difficulty finding them...make sure that you are listening.

And page 75 of that book - Silver (yes, there appears to be errors in other versions) - is in many other books.

That are totally not part of that tradition.

Scandanavia has long history here. 

take care,
y

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/4/20 7:14 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Thanks for the tip! It's a very expensive book, though, at least here in Sweden, so it will probably have to wait. I'm curious, why do you think I should turn to ceremonial magick? Do they deal with illnesses like that? Or do you think magick is somehow involved? And why is the silver important?


Hi Linda.

First, I do want to thank you, again. for your posts - as with others who have been very brave to post info regarding drug use and effects.

This information is very important in my experience.

I don't suggest you "turn" to anything other than what you feel that you need to.

That is the essence of Taoist tradition.

Only you know what you could/need/etc. "turn" to.

Swimming.

If you think you've learned to "float" (not like a witch, more like someone who is figuring this thing out) then do it...

Could be most of the others are still trying to be brave enough to wade into the shallow part of the pool.

Magik...Find a proper a teacher and learn from a person who knows this.

Note: there are many in EU who know this stuff. If you are having some difficulty finding them...make sure that you are listening.

And page 75 of that book - Silver (yes, there appears to be errors in other versions) - is in many other books.

That are totally not part of that tradition.

Scandanavia has long history here. 

take care,
y

So I've got about 20k records (you know...that vinyls stuff)...

Along with handles and other things...

I seem...to...like...collecting stuff...

Play louder...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50rlHVe6g9Q

OK...I think I'm finally understanding the cut-and-paste limitations for this forum...

NOTE: the cut-and-paste here is....

terrible...

OK...good to know.The work-arounds...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/4/20 10:06 PM as a reply to Yuri K.
I really don't understand what you think you are getting out of me saying that the effect of alcohol felt different, as that was just one occasion. I have reduced my alcohol intake from maybe one occasion every six months or even less to nothing at all, since I value meditation much more. If you think you can make a point about substance abuse from that, that's just silly. 

I don't feel like I need to turn to ceremonial magick. Magick happens anyway when there is a need for it. Intentions make things happen, so be careful what you wish for. I have been manifesting things my whole life without any ceremonial magick. I find it more important to work with my intentions than increasing power. 

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/5/20 7:55 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Now...I'm not gonna' post more than that - hey, yer a very diverse group - since I think you can figure out a bunch here. 

Are you scraping web content (user posts) from DhO, Yuri?

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/5/20 3:55 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Now...I'm not gonna' post more than that - hey, yer a very diverse group - since I think you can figure out a bunch here. 

Are you scraping web content (user posts) from DhO, Yuri?


Chris...

Why would I do that? 

It's a lot of effort (programming).

Google "data scraping" and get back to me. Take a look at this:

https://www.scrapestorm.com/?type=pricing

Buyer's market for sure...You guys may want to consider that...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/5/20 5:06 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
aloha chris,

  (mahalo for listening, btw...)


   There have been number of threads dealing with the paradox of enlightenment, being a sage while at the same time being perceived as an ordinary person. The taoist ideal is of a person entirely free in the sense of being innocent, spontaneous and sincere in all situations. This person is unified and unreflective. The world is preceived immediately, intuitively, without representation. The eyes of a child: the eternal return of beginner's mind.

   As kant informed us, there are two fundamental mental organs, with a number of functions. He called them Reason and Intellect. Let's call them Soul (or Heart) and Thinking Mind.

   The undifferentiated "mind" or soul is the sixth sense, the unifying sense which insures that all the inputs from all the senses combine in one intuitive world. This sense is not conscious, we cannot control what we perceive, no matter how we control the senses. The world as it appears is the world as it is, all the senses will agree. This is "common sense." It is unified and nondualistic; it's not always right (there are illusions and misapprehensions) but it is never wrong (seeing is believing). On the other hand, we have the thinking mind, along with all conscious mental contents; mainly: judging, willing, and thinking.

   Where I want to connect the dots is between this understanding of normal mental functioning and the radical notion that we can dispense with thinking, willing and judging in a state of grace, of enlightenment. Escaping the prison and walking in daylight along the great way.

   The child opens its eyes on a world which "makes no sense' and doesn't even know that it makes no sense. The famous opening line of aristotle's metaphysics reads:

"ALL men by nature desire to know. An indication of this is the delight we take in our senses; for even apart from their usefulness they are loved for themselves; and above all others the sense of sight."

   How does the child learn? Communication skills - languages - begin immediately. The child cries, and quickly learns that crying induces a feeling of urgency in the beings around him, and quicker attention to needs. The child imitates, and learns that smiling communicates mutual support. The child learns what it feels like to urinate and defecate, to be full, to be cold and wet and miserable, initially as just positive and negative.
 
   All children learn to speak, with so few exceptions as to make this quality a cardinal characteristic of our species and life generally, though each species lives in its own sense-world/s. Speech is essential to learning, as negotiating with other members of our species is a critical survival skill. And yet, chidren are innocent, spontaneous, sincere. They "think" insofar as they use language to acquire a common sense view of the world, with an automatic sense of unity, in that all perception is coordinated to produce a world of sensation which is one pearl in its essence. Beginner's mind is essentially nondualistic, and the child and the world are not separate, not two.

   The learning of language thus does not indicate of itself reflective thought. Every object the child learns to "recognize" has been substantiated by the common sense that not only we as individuals but we perceive "others" who verify our perceptions that objects exist. In the course of this verification - by "idle chatter" and "gossip" - objects acquire names and may be classified and inferences drawn. Thought  begins to extend to a dualistic realm which is competely detached from the world of senses. Speculative thinking, including memory and representation, arise from nowhere and have no temporality. Judging, willing and thinking are reflective in nature and require an ego, an I; the unitary thinking of the unreflective child, crazy person, drunk or sage does not. 

  ()When I was not even all that little my father would yell at me for something I did, and demand, "Why did you do that?" I could only answer "I don't know." I could hardly answer otherwise, but it was quite true, I had no idea other than, "it seemed like a good idea at the time" which even I knew was weak. But better "don't know" than try to explain.

   Thinking, willing and judging as mental formations arise on their own and bring with consciousness and a self to do the mental activity, and from this dualism arises. When thinking, willing and judging subside, the self subsides with them.

   As the child learns, the soul's "thinking" acts as an error correction process. As kant also pointed out, there are certain permanent illusions that don't go away, the perception of a flat earth, and that the sun rises and sets, for example. We know otherwise but the illusion is not dispelled. With most things, when we see through an illusion, as when we see a snake is really a rope, we have a corrected version of the "seems to me" reality, and we go through numberless corrections every day as impermanence takes its toll on the world, and as our horizons expand. We may ask, "did you see what I saw?' Someone looks up, and we look up too, and see what they see, in the aggreagate creating a common sense world on which we all collectively depend.

   The scientist uses thinking in this sense of error correction to discern what is hidden, the atoms and particles and currents, the general knowledge which knits together apparent differences into a more perfect whole. One true to the intuitive universality of common sense. The best science is completely detached from any motive but the desire to know, that primordial wonder. It is desire which turns knowledge into tools.

   The world as intuitively presented to us is prima facie "true." We use reason to make our notions conform to this reality. All of this is perfectly natural; language, thought, science.

   What of philosophy, art? They too are science. In fact, they are all literature. All attempts to make sense of the world. 

   So where do we get in trouble, why do we suffer? Using - using -   the mind for thinking, judging and willing. It is not that thinking, judging and willing are bad, that is the essence of the problem, this determination of good and bad. The difficulty is in being attached to the results of these natural processes, and distorting them, creating a pathological condition, a "whole mass of suffering." It is in using willing, judging and thinking that attachment forms. The putative dualistic self tries to hang on to objects or distance from them, and is powerless, thus frustrated. It is not desire itself, the instincts for preservation and reproduction and to know, to have power in the world, to see and be seen, act and be acted upon, but the interference of ego and its grasping.

   Sometimes an idea becomes so familiar that its familiarity conceals it. The idea that activity is "agencyless" becomes a cliche; oh, I know that, of course. Nonself is fundamental insight, like impermanence. We experience an ongoing unity of perception, a river or cataract which seems to remain the same though the water itself  is rushing by and is the only true existence. It seems like the scenery is going by but the boat is going by and the scenery is gone, gone, gone.

   The unity of perception does not imply an actual self, this is where kant does not see the implications of his own work. There is no "thing in itself," no imperceptible essence, no mental theater, no inner space. Just a rush of phenomena we have learned to name and cope with, and the act of naming and coping. Verification, analytical philosophy concludes after vast debate, amounts to "snow is white if and only if snow is white."

   Any child, drunk, crazy, or sufi zen master knows that. The universe is self-evident, even if you look very closely. It isn't good or bad, it just is. We all know it. But we love to specuate. The utter consistency of not-knowing is so boring, the tao has no flavor. On the other hand, love of the senses has no savor, everything is transient. Only in the one pearl itself can we find rest, comfort, and fulfillment.

   So, one accepts the world as it is, without looking too closely. The world reveals itself in its own time, as we are ready, if we are open to it. No need for violence. No need for chatter, or gossip, "news" of yesterday. The sun will rise again tomorrow, and the ground will still be flat.

   The idea that consciousness is actually nonself is inherently unthinkable. Yet we can never bring into appeance that unitary awareness of the sense world itself, the thinker, judger, willer, discriminator. Even as thinker it only appears when thinking, and is inseparable from thinking, thus just another appearance."To know the self is to forget the self" (dogen).

   All we are left with is 'a tacit awareness" that the world of common sense is a collective artwork, and that the Only True Being is "that lone brightness here listening to the dharma."


terry




EYES OF A CHILD
(moody blues)

Listen, hear the sound
The child awakes
Wonder all around
The child awakes
Now in his life, he never must be lost
No thoughts must deceive him
In life he must trust
With the eyes of a child
You must come out and see
That your world's spinning 'round
And through life you will be
A small part of a hope
Of a love that exists
In the eyes of a child you will see
Earth falls far away
New life awaits
Time it has no day
New life awaits
Here is your dream
And now how does it feel?
No words will go with you…

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/5/20 6:47 PM as a reply to terry.
terry:
aloha chris,

  (mahalo for listening, btw...)


   There have been number of threads dealing with the paradox of enlightenment, being a sage while at the same time being perceived as an ordinary person. The taoist ideal is of a person entirely free in the sense of being innocent, spontaneous and sincere in all situations. This person is unified and unreflective. The world is preceived immediately, intuitively, without representation. The eyes of a child: the eternal return of beginner's mind.

Interesting for sure...

I would posit that the Taoist is actually totally "reflective" - much like a mirror of the time...We perform this exercise all the time - it's fundamental to our practice. Note: don't believe the books...find an actual teacher if you don't believe me...

We'll see how all this pans out in, say, another 10 years. Like I said, it's a long-running experiment.

And...per Taoist teachings I am aware of something: they do not acknowledge anything as base as "enlightenment". Where did you pick that factoid up? I'm really curious here...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/5/20 7:10 PM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I really don't understand what you think you are getting out of me saying that the effect of alcohol felt different, as that was just one occasion. I have reduced my alcohol intake from maybe one occasion every six months or even less to nothing at all, since I value meditation much more. If you think you can make a point about substance abuse from that, that's just silly. 

I don't feel like I need to turn to ceremonial magick. Magick happens anyway when there is a need for it. Intentions make things happen, so be careful what you wish for. I have been manifesting things my whole life without any ceremonial magick. I find it more important to work with my intentions than increasing power. 

Linda....

I really like your posts...Nothing to add whatsoever.

As I said, I think you have performed a great service in them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_NggH3O90o

Perhaps some of the "enlightened" others here wanna explain things to the rest of us...

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/6/20 3:28 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
terry:
aloha chris,

  (mahalo for listening, btw...)


   There have been number of threads dealing with the paradox of enlightenment, being a sage while at the same time being perceived as an ordinary person. The taoist ideal is of a person entirely free in the sense of being innocent, spontaneous and sincere in all situations. This person is unified and unreflective. The world is preceived immediately, intuitively, without representation. The eyes of a child: the eternal return of beginner's mind.

Interesting for sure...

I would posit that the Taoist is actually totally "reflective" - much like a mirror of the time...We perform this exercise all the time - it's fundamental to our practice. Note: don't believe the books...find an actual teacher if you don't believe me...

We'll see how all this pans out in, say, another 10 years. Like I said, it's a long-running experiment.

And...per Taoist teachings I am aware of something: they do not acknowledge anything as base as "enlightenment". Where did you pick that factoid up? I'm really curious here...


   I enjoy studying the works of chuang tzu and lao tzu. I have no interest in taoist teachings as such. Had your immortality pill today?

   My views of taoism and the taoist ideal are entirely my own interpretation of the chuang/lao tradition.

   Nothing I wrote resembles a "factoid." My views are not generally "picked up." I use various materials to illustrate the ideas I want to discuss. I used the word "reflective" to mean "engaging in reflection," as in mental rumination. Lao tzu says, "the sage has no mind of his own," that is, is unreflective in the context of my post.

terry



as for taoism not speaking of enlightenment, in the following quotes we have discussion of  The Perfect Man and The Sage....(and incidently they support my theses)...


from lin yutang's chuang tzu:



Yeh Ch'u:eh asked Wang Yi, saying, "Do you know for certain that all things are the same?"

"How can I know?" answered Wang Yi. "Do you know what you do not know?"

"How can I know!" replied Yeh Ch'ueh. "But then does nobody know?"

"How can I know?" said Wang Yi. "Nevertheless, I will try to tell you. How can it be known that what I call knowing is not really not knowing and that what I call not knowing is not really knowing? Now I would ask you this, If a man sleeps in a damp place, he gets lumbago and dies. But how about an eel? And living up in a tree is precarious and trying to the nerves. But how about monkeys? Of the man, the eel, and the monkey, whose habitat is the right one, absolutely? Human beings feed on flesh, deer on grass, centipedes on little snakes, owls and crows on mice. Of these four, whose is the right taste, absolutely? Monkey mates with the dog-headed female ape, the buck with the doe, eels consort with fishes, while men admire Mao Ch'iang and Li Chi, at the sight of whom fishes plunge deep down in the water, birds soar high in the air, and deer hurry away. Yet who shall say which is the correct standard of beauty? In my opinion, the doctrines of humanity and justice and the paths of right and wrong are so confused that it is impossible to know their contentions."

"If you then," asked Yeh Ch'ueh, "do not know what is good and bad, is the Perfect Man equally without this knowledge?"

"The Perfect Man," answered Wang Yi, "is a spiritual being. Were the ocean itself scorched up, he would not feel hot. Were the great rivers frozen hard, he would not feel cold. Were the mountains to be cleft by thunder, and the great deep to be thrown up by storm, he would not tremble with fear. Thus, he would mount upon the clouds of heaven, and driving the sun and the moon before him, pass beyond the limits of this mundane existence. Death and life have no more victory over him. How much less should he concern himself with the distinctions of profit and loss?"

Chu Ch'iao addressed Ch'ang Wutse as follows: "I heard Confucius say, 'The true Sage pays no heed to worldly affairs. He neither seeks gain nor avoids injury. He asks nothing at the hands of man and does not adhere to rigid rules of conduct. Sometimes he says something without speaking and sometimes he speaks without saying anything. And so he roams beyond the limits of this mundane world.

'These,' commented Chu Ch'iao, 'are futile fantasies.' But to me they are the embodiment of the most wonderful Tao. What is your opinion?"

"These are things that perplexed even the Yellow Emperor," replied Ch'ang Wutse. "How should Confucius know? You are going too far ahead. When you see a hen's egg, you already expect to hear a cock crow. When you see a sling, you are already expecting to have broiled pigeon. I will say a few words to you at random, and do you listen at random.

"How does the Sage seat himself by the sun and moon, and hold the universe in his grasp? He blends everything into one harmonious whole, rejecting the confusion of this and that. Rank and precedence, which the vulgar sedulously cultivate, the Sage stolidly ignores, amalgamating the disparities of ten thousand years into one pure mold. The universe itself, too, conserves and blends all in the same manner.

"How do I know that love of life is not a delusion after all? How do I know but that he who dreads death is not as a child who has lost his way and does not know his way home?

"The Lady Li Chi was the daughter of the frontier officer of Ai. When the Duke of Chin first got her, she wept until the bosom of her dress was drenched with tears. But when she came to the royal residence, shared with the Duke his luxurious couch, and ate rich food, she repented of having wept. How then do I know but that the dead may repent of having previously clung to life?





tao te ching, by lao tzu, trans feng:




Forty-seven


Without going outside, you may know the whole world. 
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven. 
The farther you go, the less you know.

Thus the sage knows without traveling; 
He sees without looking; 
He works without doing.





Forty-nine


The sage has no mind of his own. 
He is aware of the needs of others.

I am good to people who are good. 
I am also good to people who are not good. 
Because Virtue is goodness. 
I have faith in people who are faithful. 
I also have faith in people who are not faithful. 
Because Virtue is faithfulness.

The sage is shy and humble - to the world he seems confusing. 
Others look to him and listen. 
He behaves like a little child.






Sixty-three


Practice non-action. 
Work without doing. 
Taste the tasteless. 
Magnify the small, increase the few. 
Reward bitterness with care.

See simplicity in the complicated. 
Achieve greatness in little things.

In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy. 
In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds. 
The sage does not attempt anything very big, 
And thus achieves greatness.

Easy promises make for little trust. 
Taking things lightly results in great difficulty. 
Because the sage always confronts difficulties, 
He never experiences them.

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/6/20 4:32 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri K:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
I really don't understand what you think you are getting out of me saying that the effect of alcohol felt different, as that was just one occasion. I have reduced my alcohol intake from maybe one occasion every six months or even less to nothing at all, since I value meditation much more. If you think you can make a point about substance abuse from that, that's just silly. 

I don't feel like I need to turn to ceremonial magick. Magick happens anyway when there is a need for it. Intentions make things happen, so be careful what you wish for. I have been manifesting things my whole life without any ceremonial magick. I find it more important to work with my intentions than increasing power. 

Linda....

I really like your posts...Nothing to add whatsoever.

As I said, I think you have performed a great service in them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_NggH3O90o

Perhaps some of the "enlightened" others here wanna explain things to the rest of us...

Great tune here, by Joy Division (great meaning dark as hell, lol).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_NggH3O90o

RE: "That nice engineer"
Answer
8/6/20 7:28 AM as a reply to Yuri K.
Yuri --

Why would I do that? 

Could you provide a simple "yes" or "no" answer, please?

I know something about web scraping. I helped start a software company that specialized in it. This was a long time ago - about 1998. We scraped consumer product information from manufacturers' websites and sold the data to retailers in a nice catalog interface for their buyers to use to make their assortment decisions.