Yuri K:
terry:
aloha chris,
(mahalo for listening, btw...)
There have been number of threads dealing with the paradox of enlightenment, being a sage while at the same time being perceived as an ordinary person. The taoist ideal is of a person entirely free in the sense of being innocent, spontaneous and sincere in all situations. This person is unified and unreflective. The world is preceived immediately, intuitively, without representation. The eyes of a child: the eternal return of beginner's mind.
Interesting for sure...
I would posit that the Taoist is actually totally "reflective" - much like a mirror of the time...We perform this exercise all the time - it's fundamental to our practice. Note: don't believe the books...find an actual teacher if you don't believe me...
We'll see how all this pans out in, say, another 10 years. Like I said, it's a long-running experiment.
And...per Taoist teachings I am aware of something: they do not acknowledge anything as base as "enlightenment". Where did you pick that factoid up? I'm really curious here...
I enjoy studying the works of chuang tzu and lao tzu. I have no interest in taoist teachings as such. Had your immortality pill today?
My views of taoism and the taoist ideal are entirely my own interpretation of the chuang/lao tradition.
Nothing I wrote resembles a "factoid." My views are not generally "picked up." I use various materials to illustrate the ideas I want to discuss. I used the word "reflective" to mean "engaging in reflection," as in mental rumination. Lao tzu says, "the sage has no mind of his own," that is, is unreflective in the context of my post.
terry
as for taoism not speaking of enlightenment, in the following quotes we have discussion of The Perfect Man and The Sage....(and incidently they support my theses)...
from lin yutang's chuang tzu:
Yeh Ch'u:eh asked Wang Yi, saying, "Do you know for certain that all things are the same?"
"How can I know?" answered Wang Yi. "Do you know what you do not know?"
"How can I know!" replied Yeh Ch'ueh. "But then does nobody know?"
"How can I know?" said Wang Yi. "Nevertheless, I will try to tell you. How can it be known that what I call knowing is not really not knowing and that what I call not knowing is not really knowing? Now I would ask you this, If a man sleeps in a damp place, he gets lumbago and dies. But how about an eel? And living up in a tree is precarious and trying to the nerves. But how about monkeys? Of the man, the eel, and the monkey, whose habitat is the right one, absolutely? Human beings feed on flesh, deer on grass, centipedes on little snakes, owls and crows on mice. Of these four, whose is the right taste, absolutely? Monkey mates with the dog-headed female ape, the buck with the doe, eels consort with fishes, while men admire Mao Ch'iang and Li Chi, at the sight of whom fishes plunge deep down in the water, birds soar high in the air, and deer hurry away. Yet who shall say which is the correct standard of beauty? In my opinion, the doctrines of humanity and justice and the paths of right and wrong are so confused that it is impossible to know their contentions."
"If you then," asked Yeh Ch'ueh, "do not know what is good and bad, is the Perfect Man equally without this knowledge?"
"The Perfect Man," answered Wang Yi, "is a spiritual being. Were the ocean itself scorched up, he would not feel hot. Were the great rivers frozen hard, he would not feel cold. Were the mountains to be cleft by thunder, and the great deep to be thrown up by storm, he would not tremble with fear. Thus, he would mount upon the clouds of heaven, and driving the sun and the moon before him, pass beyond the limits of this mundane existence. Death and life have no more victory over him. How much less should he concern himself with the distinctions of profit and loss?"
Chu Ch'iao addressed Ch'ang Wutse as follows: "I heard Confucius say, 'The true Sage pays no heed to worldly affairs. He neither seeks gain nor avoids injury. He asks nothing at the hands of man and does not adhere to rigid rules of conduct. Sometimes he says something without speaking and sometimes he speaks without saying anything. And so he roams beyond the limits of this mundane world.
'These,' commented Chu Ch'iao, 'are futile fantasies.' But to me they are the embodiment of the most wonderful Tao. What is your opinion?"
"These are things that perplexed even the Yellow Emperor," replied Ch'ang Wutse. "How should Confucius know? You are going too far ahead. When you see a hen's egg, you already expect to hear a cock crow. When you see a sling, you are already expecting to have broiled pigeon. I will say a few words to you at random, and do you listen at random.
"How does the Sage seat himself by the sun and moon, and hold the universe in his grasp? He blends everything into one harmonious whole, rejecting the confusion of this and that. Rank and precedence, which the vulgar sedulously cultivate, the Sage stolidly ignores, amalgamating the disparities of ten thousand years into one pure mold. The universe itself, too, conserves and blends all in the same manner.
"How do I know that love of life is not a delusion after all? How do I know but that he who dreads death is not as a child who has lost his way and does not know his way home?
"The Lady Li Chi was the daughter of the frontier officer of Ai. When the Duke of Chin first got her, she wept until the bosom of her dress was drenched with tears. But when she came to the royal residence, shared with the Duke his luxurious couch, and ate rich food, she repented of having wept. How then do I know but that the dead may repent of having previously clung to life?
tao te ching, by lao tzu, trans feng:
Forty-seven
Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
Without looking through the window, you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know.
Thus the sage knows without traveling;
He sees without looking;
He works without doing.
Forty-nine
The sage has no mind of his own.
He is aware of the needs of others.
I am good to people who are good.
I am also good to people who are not good.
Because Virtue is goodness.
I have faith in people who are faithful.
I also have faith in people who are not faithful.
Because Virtue is faithfulness.
The sage is shy and humble - to the world he seems confusing.
Others look to him and listen.
He behaves like a little child.
Sixty-three
Practice non-action.
Work without doing.
Taste the tasteless.
Magnify the small, increase the few.
Reward bitterness with care.
See simplicity in the complicated.
Achieve greatness in little things.
In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy.
In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds.
The sage does not attempt anything very big,
And thus achieves greatness.
Easy promises make for little trust.
Taking things lightly results in great difficulty.
Because the sage always confronts difficulties,
He never experiences them.
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