I'm a new member and found this site only recently through a podcast by Daniel Ingram which in all honesty am yet to watch, but seeing the description below reading "main force behind the Radical Dharma website" I had to inspect and sign up to this site at such a vivid title. 
I was figuring this would be the best section of the site to introduce oneself if it were necessary, I've been on some other forums and it was made mandatory so this is just an either necessary or unnecessary courtesy depending on the overall tone of the site. 

Irrelative of introductions I would like to acquire some advice for people who have had the rare privelage within their lifetimes to become Buddhas, I am going to assume that every claim to attainment on this site is honest, perhaps even if the claim isn't legitimate and deluded but honest within the person's mind nontheless. It is quite unimaginable for a person to take the time to establish themselves on a dharma/dhamma website just to lie about attainments being that this is an entire community dedicated to discovery and truthfulness. 
Back in December I had become an Arhat with the eye opening experience of complete no mind, absolute loss of the sense of time and the mental boundaries between myself and everyone else completely dissolving, entering a state of absolute rapture for about a week. Ever since I've been doing research on what to do next. 
This experience wasn't necessarily voluntarily, the loss of my worldview and ego destroyed all of my hopes and dreams, as I now understand those things can't exist within an enlightened mind. I was never Buddhist, Hindu or any other religion but for around 4 months passed through a period of utter hell which I now come to understand as the "dark night of the soul" or "Noche Oscura" as the Catholics call it. 

Dabbled in the occult for a while, albeit probably the wrong parts, but don't really know where to go next. I have heard some people say that enlightenment is simply a stepping stone, where to? I guess for the Buddhas, how does an Arhat reach the next step? Is there a next step?
Many blessings

Hi Jacob, and welcome to the DharmaOverground forum. I find you a little opaque at this point, based on your two substabntial statements so far on DhO, though i suspect that English is not your first language (no offense, your English is excellent, but the more steps in translation, in my experience, the more chances for something to get transformed linguistically into "something else", and the loss of the nuance, humor, and ease that comes with deep familiarity with a language in a living context can also change the tone of communication, making it stiffer or more formal.

For everyone meeting Jacob here in his intro for the first time, this is what caught my attention first from him---


You appear to be one of those people who find themselves in a no-self condition and manage to survive that without a great deal of outside support from either other practitioners or traditions. I would be very interested to hear about your onset experience of no-self, and would also love to hear more about what appears to be a fairly minimal history of "spiritual practice" beforehand. And in general, would just be interested in hearing more about this extraordinary realm of "experience" "you" find "yourself" in.

By the way, a note about language here: with that flurry of ""s, I'm not making fun of the state, of ou your own presentation, but of the possibility of language itself becoming absurd here, with too much effort to be consistent in the disappearance of "self." Even selfless, moving around here in bipedal primate bodies with vocal cords and 1500cc brains, we have to use the common tongue, however stretched and paradoxical it may get under these conditions. To try too hard to reinvent language in these cases seems to me to usually end up with a self-conscious idiosyncratic clunkiness useless to everyone for unerstanding. Einstein said one measure of really knowing a theory, even one as complex as Special or General Relativity, was that you could explain it in simple tterms (I think he said to a child, but that seems too high a bar, although always worth a shot). Plain speech seems best, to me, in general.

Again, welcome to our sangha. 

love, tim

How can Arthat suffer in hell realm when even Stream Enterer knows how to avoid these?

Merely having no-self experience does not make you even 1st path as you actually need all first three fetters removed to claim it and removing first requires general knowledge about how mind works and not merely experiencing no-self.

Personally I had no-self experiences before my 1st path and when it began it took some time to actually remove fetters and attain it.

Sudden enlightenment is not something which can happen. You can have sudden experience which show you something or even changes something and make you confused. Today's lay definition of 1st path is such sudden experience. It is permissible on this site to claim 1st path after one fruition but please be aware it is not the real thing. Also because it is not the same as what you describe it is not clear if you actually even experienced it. I would rather say you had pretty intense A&P event. Some people do have these on entirely different level of ridiculousness than most. I got all-sense synesthesia on my A&P before 1st path and likewise lost normal sense of self and time perception changed. I took many years of constant investigations to get to 4th path and even then it took few years to actually destroy my demons and actually understand the function of jhanas.

Simple conditions for 4th path is:
- nibbana can be experienced instantly at will.
- all 9 jhanas can be easily used - 10 jhanas and all pure abodes if you actually are on Mahayana path and use "4th" just because this site is Theravada oriented.
- you normally do not cycle and do not experience DN - though DN have a cause and it can happen - though given knowledge about its causes even if it is allowed to happen it can be terminated at any time easily... through many methods actually.

There are many characteristics and ways to tell if someone got 4th path.
If that is your skill-set then you can ponder about being 4th path, otherwise better just start putting effort toward getting these skills.

This is nonsense, Ni. Perhaps for you, true enough. But for anyone on a bodhisattva-type path, or at all engaged with Actual Fucking Life With Head Not Up Ass, suffering and the hell realms are freely available at all times by walking out the door or reading a headline. Hell is samsara, and samsara is where the work gets done, from one point of view.

Your arrogance misrepresents this forum to a newcomer. I hope Jacob's taste of DhO does not come away flavored too much with your high handed bullshit.


love, tim

Theravada wikipedia literally states that Stream Enterer can not be reborn in hell realms, hungry ghost realms and animal realms. Person which lost sense of self (which is technical matter related to biology of the brain) and hich have no-self mind state when he/she is experiencing Dark Night but have no free access to Nibbana is like being reborn in all three of these lower realms. Been there done that.

Samsara is what it is. It didn't ask to be that way, it evolved over time to be the best it can be. Hell realms are part of it. Doesn't however mean that enlightened person should stand there like an idiot and let himself be beaten by demons. I do not believe in any "surrender" philosophy. Either beat them or die trying. Either way satisfaction guaranteed and fuck the 3C.

I am a faint flickering dot among sea of much stronger signals.
My voice is clear but it is in different language so I am voiceless.
If anything I am the one who listens most of the time. Take effort.

Impression of DhO?
Better to say it right away and not beat around the bushes. If something is missing it will sooner or later be discovered, figured out. What impression will then be of community which seems to know nothing and/or is afraid to speak up? I saw how these discussions go where person comes in and claim 4th path without having anything substantial to say about it because it was not their place to claim it. It almost always end with person just going away, maybe posting something once few years. This is not good because it leads nowhere. Being able to share experiences with other people is great motivator in practice and progress.

There are processes and they can happen out of order. It is actually normal to be confused when something major happens. Being not clear about it and just using normal social logic is not skillful. People here are so deep in their normal social behavior it prevents them from making choices which break norms and that prevent progress, both in the community and their own meditation skills. And I am sure Jacob if he stays here for long enough he will notice it also.

Do you think why Arhat is called killer of thieves? He kills thieves and killing business is never nice.
If impression is that I live in different reality then it is accurate. My reality is Nibbana and that is the whole big fucking point of Buddhism... shouldn't that be clear from the start?

Ni Nurta, you have earned my respect over many exchanges, and I know you to be honest and forthright even when you strike me as most wrong-headed in any given china shop. And I have seen your deep redeeming humor too. By all means say your piece on the whole big fucking point of Buddhism, right off the bat and clear as a bell from the start. But context, context, context. This is someone's else's china shop, not yours, not mine. It is the introductory post of a newcomer. If he were to take your "skip the niceties" parochial-language condescension-flavored riffs as representive of DhO, on the limited sampling so far available to him, then I believe it would be . . . , uh, less than optimal? Inappropriate? So say your piece, by all means, you fucking liberated Nibbana dweller with a big mouth, and I'll say mine from the debased depths, and God willing and the Ganges don't rise, someone sane in between the two of us will show up and actually tell Jacob something useful.

You're cute when you cuss, my friend.

love, tim

For a next step, you could volunteer at a soup kitchen, work with underprivileged or handicapped children, volunteer at a hospital. Something like that. What is the point of becoming liberated if you don't do something useful with your freedom?

If you came to Zen temple and said you are an Arhat your back would feel it and this would be called "kindness"...
This is not exactly Zen temple but pardon my impulses. I taught Zen to myself

So who whacked you with the Keisaku?

It is never about who but why...

So why were you wacked with the Keisaku?

Why very often leads us to who.

Pushing sensitive buttons?

perhaps you needed a better teacher, my friend. Or a better student. You wave that fucking stick over other people a bit too freely, as I read it. I don't think you learned "kindness" at all.

love, tim

... or perhaps not having elliminated 10th fetter of ignorance you can not see how killing "thieves" on the is the highest form of "kindness"...

Jacob,

I am with Ni Nurta (for the most part; I did not waste my time reading all of the words).

When Arahantship is attained, there is nothing left to be done. Anything following Arahantship is simply whatever it is you'd like to spend your remaining Karma on.

It is very, very, very, very, very easy to mistake the Arising and Passing with Stream-Entry or even full-blown Nibbana. Additionally, it is very easy to mistake Stream-Entry with full-blown Nibbana. 

It is true that one who attains Stream-Entry will not be reborn in any realms below human, however, here we are talking about after the break-up of the body and not figurative hell-realms as in hellish experiences within the human-realm. An Arahant is not going to be reborn anywhere and a Stream-Winner is not going to be reborn in hell, as a hungry-ghost, or in the animal womb. 

That said, I imagine it is not beyond the realm of possibility for an Arahant, perhaps someone of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd path, to choose to enter the hell-realm, however this is mere speculation on my part. There are Bodhisattvas who are in hell suffering for the sake of liberating the hell-beings. I'm unsure of the nature of this situation, but I imagine if an Arahant so chooses, they can be reborn. This may simply be my ignorance speaking, but I'm not wholly sure it even matters since I have no real desire to be a Bodhisattva. 

Arahantship is not a step towards Buddhahood. Arahantship is the end of the Path. Buddhahood is the end of a different path. Don't mistake these descriptions as a claim that these paths are different or the same or that either of those two paths are singular paths. This is just language to describe something beyond language. 

I humbly suggest you explore the Pali canon, which is the closest remaining knowledge of Gotama Buddha's teachings. There you will discover the answers to any and all of your questions, or you will discover confusion---either way it will be for your benefit. (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/)

Don't be discouraged by anything you read on this forum. The greatest blessing, outside of Nibbana, is learning that you have not yet attained Nibbana... because the greatest curse, other than Samsara, is falsely believing you have attained Nibbana. If you've made it thus far all on your own, I have no doubt you will make it easily to end with a little aid from the Great Sage. 

My friend, did Buddha not say to kill only anger? 

Far be it from me to advice a silent Buddha, but I, personally, would not kill a thief. Perhaps this is my 10th fetter, but I would never presume to know more than Buddha. Of course, if the scriptures are wrong I would not hold that against Lord Buddha. 

lol, Jacob, what a pot you set boiling! Are you still around? Welcome to the monkey house! That's what you get for "dabbling in the occult," maybe, especially the wrong parts--- you end up in a bad section of town in Theravadaville, while the denizens discuss the situation at length without a scrap of information.

We need scraps, man. This bone is chewed to shit. I would love to hear more of your history, and of your path to where you are.

love, tim

Arhats are literally called killers of thieves. There are also extensive lists of things they need to eliminate. I am also pretty sure by thieves Buddha also meant mosquitoes

Don't your body kill eg. bacteria and viruses?
If you lived on an island overrun by rabbit wouldn't you need to somehow reduce their numbers? Even if you did introduce wolves then it would still be genocide and then you would have issue with too much wolves... And if you did not kill them then sooner or later their population would be too large to sustain given available resources and they would starve to death...

Skillful is to destroy only what is necessary and what when not destroyed would inevitably lead to more suffering so eg. serial killers I would kill on the spot given the chance. Some times by being passive you are doing yourself great disfavor because it is you who experiences everything. We all are the same thing in the end. Besides universe never looses single qubit of information and evolves so it is able to restore everything it wants. It might appear linear but it surely is not...

Source for your claim that Arahants are called killers of thieves?---I could find none.

Killing a rabit is killing a rabbit. Introducing a wolf to their habit is not killing a rabbit. 

Viruses are not alive, though what is and is not "life" is up to interpretation as science holds no real authority over such a topic. As far as Buddha was concerned, an act of killing must be intentional. Additionally, the body is not mine and what it does by its own nature is not me. Additionally, additionally, Buddha clarified killing as being done to something that is visible, known. You could argue that through modern science we can see and know microscopic creatures, but if the intention is not there it is nothing at all. 

Rabbits that overpopulate and starve to death are completely irrelevant to the individual on the hypothetical island. Killing is an intentional act. Letting something die due to its own nature is entirely different. What is important in such a situation is the mind-state of the viewer. You can be apathetic, compassionate, or even joyous in regards to the death of others, but none of this is killing and all of it has its own karmic repercussions (as I understand it).

Buddha did not kill Anguliamala, nor did Buddha kill any wicked people, nor did Buddha recommend the killing any wicked people. In fact... Simile of the Saw... https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html

I have to say, your Buddhahood really dropped quite a few pegs with your response. Of course, someone like yourself wouldn't be bothered at all by such a claim by someone like myself. I don't mean this passive-aggressively. If you're truly what you say than I have no doubt your rebudle will be beyond my own imagining. 

   I think nn has a point. People claiming to be arhats are imagining things (diamond sutra). One satori does not an arhat make. 

   And it is certainly not unimaginable that people would lie about their attainments, even here. In truth there are no attainments. One who attains is not one who attains, for one attains isnotness.

   Arhats don't ask for advice; they have already "attained." 

t




from the shorter discourse on the lion's roar, majjhima nikaya 11:





17. "Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words.

aloha tim,

   Since you like to tell people jhow arrogant they are and how their expressions could be offputting to newcomers, you might like to know that to some of us your language is nearly always grossly offensive.


your usual four letter word deleted,
terry

Terry,

One "correction": 

Arahants may ask for advice. Not in reference to Nibbana, but in reference to lesser things. I believe that there are examples of Arahants asking Buddha for advice, or rather, saying things that implied that they could use advice (perhaps I'm not arguing against your claim). I don't think it would be unfathamoble for an Arahant to ask a native for their advice regarding which path to take if they were trying to travel to a particular direction. There are things an Arahant does not know that a lay person might know, but nothing in reference to Dhamma and nothing within the context of what we're discussing here in this thread. 

aloha jim,

    If one is liberated, one has no need to do anything useful. Being underpriveleged is an asset if not a prerequisite to liberation.

   Consider the whole idea of "use." What we use are tools. We use tools to accomplish the ends of desire. The ends of desire are so important to us that virtually everything a normal urban dweller sees is a tool that was/is/will be used for some useful purpose. To the hardened tool user even surf and sun are tools which malfunction.

   We are the tool-using animal. Teeth to bite and claws to snatch are not enough, we outrage fortune with slings and arrows, and newer missiles of greater potency, titans that rival the stars. We handle tools and accomplish purposes all day every day, a treadmill worn smooth with use.

  We talk about the macro effects, loss of biodiversity, climate change, rampant disease; the toxic effects of fouling our own nests as a species (monkeys never were very good with their feces,). But it is the micro effects I am concerned with here, in relation to liberation and usefulness.

   Tool-using being the implementaion of desire, it also implements dukkha, dissatisfaction. We want something, say, oatmeal. We use tools to fix it. Tools were used to put the ingredients in our pantry, and will be used to remove the waste. Roads are tools, buildings are tools, books, cushions, what have you. One has to look deeply or away to find a landscape wherein tools are not the featured objects, at hand and in use. We forget we are using tools - like this complicated computer - when they perform their functions as expected. Thus our consciousness, obsessed with desire and tool-using to accomplish its ends, mainly finds itself dissatisfied amid malfunctioning tools. It must be recognized that our obsession with results leads us to treat sentient beings as tools, even humans, as in the "human resources" subject to "attrition." We are regarded as "unemployed, "consumers," even "retired." Useless mouths, suitable for shaming.

   So we meditate, go on retreats, view the beauty and order in animals, children, the sky, the ocean, plants. Even ordinary men and women in their urban settings are like deer in the woods when they forget themselves. One can read poetry on the subway. Or scrape derelicts up off the sidewalk and provide them a meal and some comfort. Not as something useful to do but as an expression of (divine) compassion.

   Liberation from self interest gives us the ability to regard broken tools as tools for liberation. Broken and discarded people are more accessible, that's why god loves them best. Dukkha itself becomes the dharma. Samsara is nirvana. Half misery, half compassion. Sun face buddha, moon face buddha. A foot of water and a foot of wave.

   So we are useful, if it is our dharma/karma, not because it is useful to be useful, but because it is liberating. All around us all beings are self-liberating; liberation, not usefulness, is what is really going on. God says, "I was a hidden treasure and I yearned to be known. Then I created creatures in order to be known by them." All beings are in their essence, love: beauty, justice, mercy and truth. All beings are singing the praises of god in these terms. Being part and whole of this harmony is liberation, in Words.


   Not actually disagreeing with you, jim, if you mean by being "useful" doing unselfish things for the good of all sentient beings, in accordance with one's conscience.

with a nod to heidegger,
terry





from wired online article: "your computer is really a part of you"

full article here:

https://www.wired.com/2010/03/heidegger-tools/


An empirical test of ideas proposed by Martin Heidegger shows the great German philosopher to be correct: Everyday tools really do become part of ourselves.

The findings come from a deceptively simple study of people using a computer mouse rigged to malfunction. The resulting disruption in attention wasn't superficial. It seemingly extended to the very roots of cognition.

"The person and the various parts of their brain and the mouse and the monitor are so tightly intertwined that they're just one thing," said Anthony Chemero, a cognitive scientist at Franklin & Marshall College. "The tool isn't separate from you. It's part of you."

Chemero's experiment, published March 9 in Public Library of Science, was designed to test one of Heidegger's fundamental concepts: that people don't notice familiar, functional tools, but instead "see through" them to a task at hand, for precisely the same reasons that one doesn't think of one's fingers while tying shoelaces. The tools are us.

   

rrrrroooooooaaaaarrrrrrrr..........

okay. I'm just sorry as fuck about that, terry. Aloha.

If rabbits dying from starvation or any other cause are not important as long as it is not directly you getting your hands dirty then so are humans.
As long as you hide and do nothing and get no bad karma from trying to make a change then you are free from karma... it doesn't however mean that you do not get karma from action of non-action...
Perhaps you need to become fox for five hundred lifetimes to undestand that koan

BTW. From that Sutta I like Kali the most. Truly scientific mind: make hypothesis, prepare and execute test plan and then review and publish the findings
Too bad she was punished for it...

Jacob, seriously, man, if you're not hanging in on this thread, I'm not, lol.

love, tim