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Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry

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Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/21/20 4:39 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/21/20 6:40 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/22/20 6:11 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Brian 8/23/20 12:14 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Ni Nurta 8/23/20 3:59 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry chris mc 8/23/20 4:19 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/24/20 3:16 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Papa Che Dusko 8/24/20 5:05 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/24/20 6:04 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Papa Che Dusko 8/24/20 6:03 AM
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RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/24/20 9:32 AM
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RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Olivier 8/24/20 10:28 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry shargrol 8/24/20 11:54 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Chris Marti 8/24/20 11:55 AM
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RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/24/20 6:06 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/24/20 8:25 PM
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RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/27/20 6:30 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry shargrol 8/28/20 6:53 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/27/20 8:42 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry shargrol 8/27/20 9:16 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/28/20 5:34 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry shargrol 8/28/20 7:53 PM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/29/20 12:14 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/29/20 12:50 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Olivier 8/29/20 3:59 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry Jim Smith 8/29/20 6:12 AM
RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry agnostic 8/27/20 3:03 PM
I have been reading some writings and translations of the sutras by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and have found an explaination of how anapanasatti leads to stream entry.

The explanation involves the first noble truth: that clinging leads to suffering, and the clinging is to the five aggregates.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#selvesnotself
"In his first noble truth, he identifies suffering as the five clinging aggregates"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html
Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

And it is the five aggregates from which we build our sense of self.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#selvesnotself
As we will see later, he explains the five aggregates as the raw material from which you create your sense of self, but that it’s not skillful to think that they constitute what you are.

When one practices anapanasatti, the steps of gladdening the mind, calming the mind etc result in letting go. You are not attached or clinging if you are relaxed and happy. If you feel good, you are not suffering (ie you are not clinging to the aggregates).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html
{5} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' {6} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' {7} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' {8} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"{9} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' {10} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in gladdening the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out gladdening the mind.' {11} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind. {12} He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.


https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/SelvesAndNot-self_181215.pdf
To wean the mind off its usual habit of feeding on sensuality, we have to train it to enjoy the genuine health food provided by the other means of skillful clinging. This is one of the main reasons why we have to feed it with concentration. The pleasure and rapture of jhāna help provide the sense of well-being we need in the here and now to be willing to change our diet [§§21-22].

This is what Thanissaro means by jhana:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/concmind.html
Many of us have heard that jhana is a very intense trance-like state that requires intense staring and shutting out the rest of the world. It sounds nothing like mindfulness at all. But if you look in the Canon where the Buddha describes jhana, that's not the kind of state he's talking about. To be in jhana is to be absorbed, very pleasurably, in the sense of the whole body altogether. A very broad sense of awareness fills the entire body.

As you let go of clinging to the aggregates, the same aggregates that you build your sense of self from, you become freed from identity view.

Thanissaro has written a book on meditation:  With Each & Every Breath: A Guide to Meditation.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#eachandeverybreath

Some people may find it hard to practice the jhana's, in that case, according to Bhante Vimalaramsi, metta meditation will work too:
https://www.dhammasukha.org/index.html
Happiness arises as the burden of the ego melts away. Bhante talks about the benefits of using Metta here vs. the breath. Metta is much faster and easier for the path to awakening. Metta is not just a "feel-good" practice; it is the direct path to the unconditioned (SN 46.54(4)).

Thanissaro also discusses the sense of self. He says our idea of self is constantly changing. We might think of ourself in one moment as a child of someone, in another moment as a parent of someone else, at some other time as an employee and later a supervisor, etc etc. What we consider ourself also defines what we consider not-self. Since we are constantly changing these two things, we should learn which forms are beneficial and which are not.


https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/SelvesAndNot-self_181215.pdf
So, to repeat, the issue is not, “What is my true self?” but “What kind of perception of self is skillful and when is it skillful, what kind of perception of not-self is skillful and when is it skillful?

We already engage in these perceptions all of the time and have been doing so ever since we were children. We have many different perceptions of self. Each sense of self is strategic, a means to an end. Each comes with a boundary, inside of which is “self” and outside of which is “not-self.” And so our sense of what’s self and what’s not-self keeps changing all of the time depending on our desires and what we see will lead to true happiness.

Take an example from your childhood. Suppose you have a younger sister, and someone down the street is threatening her. You want to protect her. At that moment she is very much your sister. She belongs to you, so you will do whatever you can to protect her. Then suppose that, when you’ve brought her home safely, she begins to play with your toy car and won’t give it back to you. Now she’s no longer your sister. She’s the Other. Your sense of your self, and of what is yours and not yours, has shifted. The boundary line between self and not-self has changed.

You’ve been doing this sort of thing—changing the boundaries of what’s self and not-self—all of the time. Think back on your life—or even for just a day—to see the many times your sense of self has changed from one role to another.




We can adopt some ideas of self that are beneficial and lead to happiness and reject others that are not beneficial as not-self. It is this sense of not-self that "anatta" referrs to.

For example...

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/SelvesAndNot-self_181215.pdf
... the most skillful form of self-identity you can take along the path—the self that takes pride in always being willing to learn from its actions ...



https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/SelvesAndNot-self_181215.pdf
We also need to develop a healthy sense of self, which is self-reliant, responsible, and heedful. So we need to feed in these three ways. As for clinging to sensuality: This is the one type of clinging that has no role on the path, but we do require external conditions conducive to training the mind. We need a certain amount of sensory pleasure provided by food, clothing, shelter, medicine, and the pleasures of a peaceful, quiet place to meditate. We’re advised not to obsess over these things, but if we haven’t yet gotten to the point where we can maintain our mental center everywhere, we have to hold to the principle of searching out surroundings conducive for the practice whenever we can.

Thanissaro points out that the Buddha, when directly asked, refused to say if there is a self or not.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html
Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?"

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.

Thanassaro also says the sense of self is "an activity, a process."

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/SelvesAndNot-self_181215.pdf
The important point to notice as we connect these talks with our meditation is that we can view our sense of self as an activity, a process. It’s something we do, and something we can learn to do more skillfully. At the same time we’ll look at our sense of what’s not-self—which is also an activity —and learn how to do that more skillfully, too.

When we learn to do this in the proper way, we’ll arrive at true happiness, free from any suffering and stress. At that point, questions of self and not-self will be put aside. When you arrive at true happiness, you no longer need strategies to protect it—the way you do for forms of happiness that are subject to change—because it’s unconditioned. It doesn’t depend on anything at all. The strategy of self is no longer needed, and neither is the strategy of not-self. As Ajaan Suwat, one of my teachers, once said, when you find true happiness, you don’t ask who’s experiencing it, for that’s not an issue. The experience itself is sufficient. It doesn’t need anybody to watch over it. But to reach that point we have to learn how to develop our skill in employing both the strategies of self and the strategies of not-self.

Thanissaro also explains how full awakening occurs

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/SelvesAndNot-self_181215.pdf
First you master the state of jhāna. Then you try to develop perceptions that give rise to a sense of dispassion for the jhāna. Once you’ve developed that sense of dispassion, you develop the perception in which you see all-around dispassion and cessation as desirable. Then you learn how to drop even that perception and stay right there. That, the Buddha says, is where full awakening can occur.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/21/20 6:40 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21560557#_19_message_21558539

Jim Smith:


It seems like the sense of being an observer and being an owner (of a body, of thoughts and opinions, of material things) is what perpetuates the illusion of a self.

It is hard for someone to feel like it is not "my" body. It is hard to for someone to feel like it is not "me" observing.

...

When you like something (cling to the form aggregate), you want it.
When you want something, you feel it is, or should be, yours.

And magically, "the owner of things", a sense of self as an owner (an illusion), pops into being (is fabricated).


https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/KarmaOfQuestions/Section0013.html
When khandhas are experienced, the process of fabrication normally doesn’t simply stop there. If attention focuses on the khandhas’ attractive features—beautiful forms, pleasant feelings, etc.—it can give rise to passion and delight. This passion and delight can take many forms, but the most tenacious is the habitual act of fabricating a sense of me or mine, identifying with a particular khandha (or set of khandhas) or claiming possession of it.

We cling to other aspects of the aggregates, the body, mind (thoughts, opnions), awareness (the observer), we also (magically) fabricate a sense (illusion) of self - a being - the "I".

These beliefs about what the self is, are created in the mind because of our attachments to objects, to the body, and to mind. 

Understanding this, allows us to see how it happens.

We can see how the suffering we are experiencing is caused when when the things we cling to: objects, body, mind (thoughts opinions) - including our sense of self as a being ("me") or as an owner ("mine") - is threatened.

When we see what is causing us to suffer, we have motivation to let go, we develop dispassion toward what we previously clung to - things we like, the body, the mind.

Pleasant meditation (samatha, metta, jhanna) help us feel secure enough to let go.

When we stop clinging, we stop producing these unskillful illusions of self.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/22/20 6:11 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/21602705#_19_message_21602705

Jim Smith:
What is a skillful concept of self and what is a skillful concept of not-self?

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/SelvesNot-self/Section0010.html
And what can you take with you? Two things. One is your actions; the other is the qualities of the mind. Traditionally, there are seven treasures you can take with you: conviction, virtue, shame, compunction, learning the Dhamma, generosity, and discernment [§31].
...
The Canon gives other lists of qualities you can take with you as well, such as the ten perfections: generosity, virtue, renunciation, discernment, persistence, endurance, truth, determination, goodwill, and equanimity.
...
There’s another list of teachings that helps you take a long-term view of what’s worth identifying with and what’s not. It’s called the eight worldly dhammas: wealth, loss of wealth, status, loss of status, praise, criticism, pleasure, pain. These, the Buddha says, are basically what the world has to offer—and it’s not much, is it? You notice that they come in pairs. It’s impossible to have one without the other. If you try to hold onto your wealth, you lose it anyhow. If you try to identify with whatever status you have, it makes it difficult when you lose that status. The same with praise and criticism, pleasure and pain. So, it’s best not to try to hold on to these things, but it is possible to get good use out of them while you have them: to use the things you can’t take with you as means for developing qualities of mind that you can.
...



https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/SelvesNot-self/Section0011.html
The practice of jhāna provides the perspective that allows you to step back from your sensual passions and all your other unskillful ways of looking for pleasure to see that they weren’t worth the effort put into gaining them. This forces you to step back from the unskillful committee members that push for those ways of looking for pleasure, and to ask whether you want to continue associating and identifying with them or not.

This process isn’t always easy. You tend to identify with those unskillful committee members because you associate them with pleasure. But the practice of jhāna helps make this process of dis-identification possible. When you can see that—in comparison to the blameless pleasure of jhāna—these other committee members also bring you stress and pain, you can more easily regard them as not-self. You can let them go.




https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/SelvesNot-self/Section0009.html
The Buddha himself makes the point that the not-self perception is to be used for the sake of happiness:

“‘Monks, do you see any clinging in the form of a doctrine of self which, when you cling to it, there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair?”

And the monks respond, “No, Lord.”

And the Buddha says, “Neither do I. What do you think, if a person were to gather or to burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, and leaves here in Jeta’s Grove, would the thought occur to you, ‘It’s us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes’?”

The monks say, “No, Lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self.”

And then the Buddha says, “Even so, monks, whatever is not yours, let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term welfare & happiness. What is not yours?

“Form is not yours. Let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term welfare & happiness.

“Feeling is not yours. Let go of it….

“Perception is not yours. Let go of it….

“Fabrications are not yours. Let go of them….

“Consciousness is not yours. Let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term welfare & happiness.”

— MN 22

This is a healthy and fruitful application of the perception of not-self: the topic we’re going to take up tomorrow.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/23/20 12:14 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Good stuff. Thanks especially for the links to Thanissaro's books.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/23/20 3:59 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Nice summary.
I would add that this changing self actually has a purpose or rather tends to happen because it provides tangible benefit to the nervous system and this is why we conditioned ourselves to be this way. It is easier to avoid suffering caused by overusing part of your nervous system when you are slightly neurotic and change how you feel all the time. It is because suffering is caused by over-activation why distractions provide instant reduction in suffering and why we conditioned ourselves to seek distractions.

Actually meditation itself is just another distraction which we learn how to do and use. It itself has the same dynamics as any activity and is subject to the same issues. Meditation states however are by definition more restful than most other activities and provide good platform for self observation and this is why it is more likely to notice how certain processes generate suffering and fix them than when doing something else. But that are pretty much the only differences and also depending on the type of meditation there might be actually not so much differences and we might cling to meditation and its effects as much as to anything else and suffer because of it.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/23/20 4:19 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I've read posts from a few teachers about anapanasati practice leading to stream entry, Vimalaramsi for example.  From what I understand it was the practice that led the Buddha to first path.

But how does it happen, what does it look like?  If I do vipassana practice, I'll experience something close to the Progress of Insight map along the way, I understand what will happen.  If I do anapanasati practice, do I still experience identifiable stages along the way, or does the cessation experience just suddenly happen out of the blue?

And, I've seen dozens of people online who have talked about practicing vipassana with success and reaching some level of enlightenment, but can't remember ever reading someone say that they did the same thing with anapanasati practice.  Are there people doing anapanasati practice these days and reaching stream entry?  Maybe I'm not visiting the right forums.

Interesting information Jim, thanks for posting.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 3:16 AM as a reply to chris mc.
chris mc:
I've read posts from a few teachers about anapanasati practice leading to stream entry, Vimalaramsi for example.  From what I understand it was the practice that led the Buddha to first path.

But how does it happen, what does it look like?  If I do vipassana practice, I'll experience something close to the Progress of Insight map along the way, I understand what will happen.  If I do anapanasati practice, do I still experience identifiable stages along the way, or does the cessation experience just suddenly happen out of the blue?


The path to awakening with anapanasatti works by producing the seven factors of awakening which are a sequential series of attainments. Mindfulness->Analysis->Persistence->Joy->Tranquility->Concentration->Equanimity->Awakening. So you can measure your progress by that means.

There are 16 steps in anapanasatti, I don't know if they are meant to be mastered sequentially, but you could measure your progress by mastery of each step even if you pursue them in parallel.

Also, in the Pali Canon, the stages of awakening are defined by freedom from the fetters, and anybody can monitor their own progress through observing their own increasing freedom from the fetters over time. 

And traditionally with the progress of insight, the student is not usually aware of the stages:
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html

The Sixteen Stages of Insight
...
Some meditation teachers feel that the following information should not be made available to the general public. That isn't because these teachings are for members of a select group, must be specially transmitted, or are in any sense esoteric; but because, due to the tricky nature of the mind, learning about these insights before acquiring personal meditation experience might cause you to anticipate results, thereby slowing your progress. That's why Mahási Sayádaw wrote, "It is not good for a pupil who meditates under the guidance of a teacher to get acquainted with these stages before meditation begins" (Practical Insight Meditation, p. 35).
...

Practical Insight Meditation is recommended here on the Dharma Overground web site.

{I have my own (unconventional) views on the subject of measuring progress toward awakening which I explain on on my blog where I justify my views that enlightenment is something like equanimity, everyone has some level of it and you can increase your level gradually by practicing meditation and mindfulness.  In some cases awakening is so gradual that it does not produce a "big change" - so the stages of awakening are arbitrary (meaningless) and therefore it is best just to monitor your own progress, your own increase in your level of enlightenment, by your own increasing freedom from the fetters - there is no use in looking for a "big change" when it might never happen, and since you already have some level of enlightenment you don't need that big first step to get benefit. You get gradual increasing benefits (increasing level of enlightenment, increasing freedom from the fetters) from the first meditation session.}

I am not trying to imply what Thanissaro teaches is best for everyone. I am interested in it because it suits my inclinations well and I post about it because I think others (but not everyone) might also be interested for similar reasons.  Or people might just be interested in broadening their knowledge in general. Sometimes you benefit from learning about other things, you may find applications within your own (different) system.

Personally, I am frightened by the number of people, some of whom are enlightened, who come on this forum and complain that vipassana has caused emotional problems or made them mentally ill. I am afraid to do too much vipassana where dark nights are built into the system. As Thanissaro teaches the anapanasatti, suffering is decreased from the first meditation session and it gets better from there. That has been my experience with anapanasatti.


Thanissaro describes what stream-entery is like here:

https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#intothestream

The excerpt below is from the table of contents. The first part is how to attain stream entry. The second part is what it is like to be a stream-enterer. It is not like the progress of insight. There is much more to it than meditating and realizing anatta. It includes virtue. If you don't have virtue you are not awakened. All those highly rated "arhats" who were exposed in sex scandals may have had innumerable cessations, but they would not even be considered stream-enterers by this reckoning.

Personally, I am looking to Buddhism to help me cultivate virtue and reduce suffering more than to realize anatta - that is one reason I am attracted to Thanasaro's style of Buddhism. If someone just wants to realize anatta, (or believes virtue and ending suffering are unattainable, and pursuing them is life-denying) maybe vipassana is best for them.

Part I: The Way to Stream Entry
  • Association with People of Integrity
  • Listening to the True Dhamma
  • Appropriate Attention
  • Practice in Accordance with the Dhamma
  • Mindfulness & Alertness
  • Restraint of the Senses
  • The Three Forms of Right Conduct
  • The Four Establishings of Mindfulness
  • The Seven Factors for Awakening
  • Clear Knowing & Release
Part II: Stream Entry & its Results
  • The Arising of the Dhamma Eye
  • The Three Fetters
  • The Character of a Stream-winner
  • Rewards
  • Advice



chris mc:

And, I've seen dozens of people online who have talked about practicing vipassana with success and reaching some level of enlightenment, but can't remember ever reading someone say that they did the same thing with anapanasati practice.  Are there people doing anapanasati practice these days and reaching stream entry?  Maybe I'm not visiting the right forums.

Interesting information Jim, thanks for posting.


My understanding is that in most traditions one does not discuss their level of attainment. I think the pragmatic dharma approach is an exception.  I can see how someone might have the opinion that is a plus for pragmatic dharma, but unless there is some form of certification (which there isn't as far as I know) how do you know who the fakers are and who the genuine claimants are?

I think it is better to observe the character of the practitioners rather than their claims of attainments when choosing a teacher or system of practice. All those sex scandals justify that approach: students should understand what virtue is and judge their teachers accordingly if they find virtue lacking. Find someone or some system that demonstrates it has what you are looking for.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 5:05 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
"Personally, I am frightened by the number of people, some of whom are enlightened, who come on this forum and complain that vipassana has caused emotional problems or made them mentally ill. I am afraid to do too much vipassana where dark nights are built into the system. As Thanissaro teaches the anapanasatti, suffering is decreased from the first meditation session and it gets better from there. That has been my experience with anapanasatti."

I come from the Anapanasatti-Shamatha background. I have been practicing it from May 2010 to about the end of 2012.
I was totally into Thanissaro and Vimalaramsi and all the "calming the bodily formations and breath all the way". I laughed at Vipassana people back then, same as Thanissaro does laugh at the Vipassana folks now and then.

Yes, anapanasatti and calm-abiding sure feels great or pleasant and its really making all very much soft. But it didnt get "better" later on. For some it might like for Thanisssaro and others with good Karma points but what about us with not rich in good Karma points?
The Dissolution aspect devasted my "Anapanassati decreased suffering" in bits and pieces! emoticon I mean jeez, I was in total panic. Had no idea what hit me and I lost it big time. Knew nothign about the Maps. I wish I knew as that would tell me "its ok, its just progress, its called Dukkha Nanas, keep noting your matter of fact experience, dont give up".

It seems to me that anapanassati DOES WORK well for some people all the way. For some only half the way and for some not at all. For some it might not work in the start but does later on. For some does work at the start but gets wiped out later on.

I think its good to take into the account the good "Karmic Points" we all have. Jhana is part of the Deva realm and some of us have so much good karma points that we can burn it up onto Jhanas without loosing it. Some of us have a few good "karma points" in pocket and once we burn it our in Jhana goodness we fall low afterwards and ask "what happened, where is my bliss gone, why cant I get it anymore, why is everything dissolving into bit and pieces?" 

My question is this; if those stuck in Hell, Hungry Ghoast and Animal realms cant attain to Jhana no matter what they do, then what else is left for them to do so to have a fighting chance? They have no karmic points for Jhana but they sure could try and Note their way out of the sludge. One sensation at a time. 

So,if you feel you do have the Karmic points to ride the Jhanas then do so. But do remind your self not to burn those points in just hanging in thse joys and blisses but investigate them and keep going as those good karmic points you have might just be too short lived. But worry not, as there is always Noting left for those of us who fall down from the heavens.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 6:04 AM as a reply to Papa Che Dusko.
Papa Che Dusko:
"Personally, I am frightened by the number of people, some of whom are enlightened, who come on this forum and complain that vipassana has caused emotional problems or made them mentally ill. I am afraid to do too much vipassana where dark nights are built into the system. As Thanissaro teaches the anapanasatti, suffering is decreased from the first meditation session and it gets better from there. That has been my experience with anapanasatti."

I come from the Anapanasatti-Shamatha background. I have been practicing it from May 2010 to about the end of 2012.
I was totally into Thanissaro and Vimalaramsi and all the "calming the bodily formations and breath all the way". I laughed at Vipassana people back then, same as Thanissaro does laugh at the Vipassana folks now and then.

Yes, anapanasatti and calm-abiding sure feels great or pleasant and its really making all very much soft. But it didnt get "better" later on. For some it might like for Thanisssaro and others with good Karma points but what about us with not rich in good Karma points?
The Dissolution aspect devasted my "Anapanassati decreased suffering" in bits and pieces! emoticon I mean jeez, I was in total panic. Had no idea what hit me and I lost it big time. Knew nothign about the Maps. I wish I knew as that would tell me "its ok, its just progress, its called Dukkha Nanas, keep noting your matter of fact experience, dont give up".

It seems to me that anapanassati DOES WORK well for some people all the way. For some only half the way and for some not at all. For some it might not work in the start but does later on. For some does work at the start but gets wiped out later on.

I think its good to take into the account the good "Karmic Points" we all have. Jhana is part of the Deva realm and some of us have so much good karma points that we can burn it up onto Jhanas without loosing it. Some of us have a few good "karma points" in pocket and once we burn it our in Jhana goodness we fall low afterwards and ask "what happened, where is my bliss gone, why cant I get it anymore, why is everything dissolving into bit and pieces?" 

My question is this; if those stuck in Hell, Hungry Ghoast and Animal realms cant attain to Jhana no matter what they do, then what else is left for them to do so to have a fighting chance? They have no karmic points for Jhana but they sure could try and Note their way out of the sludge. One sensation at a time. 

So,if you feel you do have the Karmic points to ride the Jhanas then do so. But do remind your self not to burn those points in just hanging in thse joys and blisses but investigate them and keep going as those good karmic points you have might just be too short lived. But worry not, as there is always Noting left for those of us who fall down from the heavens.
The effects you are attributing to karmic points I attribute to diet and individual differences in metabolism and brain chemistry. But I think it is possible that for some people jhanas are not a good choice. 

When you mention dissolution, isn't that from the progress of insight? Isn't that a different practice (vipassana) than anapanasatti / jhanas (samatha)?

Where did you learn jhana's?

I stumbled upon them myself by accident and learned to produce biss from various things I read. I didn't know what jhanas were when I first learned to experience them. After my initial experiences I stopped pushing the bliss to high levels. One of the things I've learned from this forum is not to strain my brain meditating too much or it could cause psychological problems.  And I find the right diet is necessary to access jhanas consistently. I find that if I do relaxation exercises I eventually get into a state where I can access the jhanas, that's when I stop the relaxation exercises and start meditating, but I don't push up the bliss, I just meditate on the breath, aware of a pleasant relaxed feeling, letting go of what ever attachments come up, and go through the different jhanas as they occur.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 6:03 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
"Where did you learn jhana's?"

I didn't learn Jhana, they would arise on the cushion. And I too had no idea what those were when I first got them as I had no idea about Buddhism back then (I was doing Ki breathing as thought in Aikido).

BTW, I have no more to say on this subject as all I had to say is in my post above emoticon Im off to sit now emoticon May you find happiness and piece.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 6:58 AM as a reply to chris mc.
I practiced very dry vipassana a la MCTB / Mahasi rather intensely for a while including a couple Mahasi retreats. It's an incredibly powerful (and greuling) practice and it lead to deeply profound transformations. After a few trips around larger insight cycles, however, it began to show its limitations. I was always seeking that next insight or pass through equanimity into a path fruition to "fix" layers of suffering instead of cultivating skills that could provide immeditately attainable goals of piti, joy and happiness. 

I've switched to Anapanasati over the last year or so and it's been a real game changer. It seems in some circles the very bedrock Dhammic idea that happiness independent of conditions is a myth or a life-denying ideal. Anapanasati and a lot of what is dicussed in the suttas involves clearing the mind of unwholesome states or sankaras and culitvating joy and satisfaction in their place. The dry vipassana camp is more about breaking down or refining conditioned perceptions of the senses. The latter is tremendously helpful but I see now that it is only part of the picture of what the Dhamma is all about; And that missing ingredient - joy/satisfaction - seems to be a cornerstone to Sila that some point out is missing in discussion 

When practicing Anapanasati I see the possibility and perhaps truth in typically orthodox ideals of enlightenment. I believe fetter-free attainments are possible even if maybe it takes monastic conditions to get there. Either way, getting embroiled in these arguments is not the path.

All that being said, I still owe a lot to the dry vipassana work. It's allowed the nice "wide refined emptiness" of perception to be the crucible for cultivating jhana and heaps of happiness and joy. I still think doing the dry work is a great place to start but some may see the eventual limitations.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 9:32 AM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
...
All that being said, I still owe a lot to the dry vipassana work. It's allowed the nice "wide refined emptiness" of perception to be the crucible for cultivating jhana and heaps of happiness and joy. I still think doing the dry work is a great place to start but some may see the eventual limitations.
I think there is samatha in vipassana and vipassana in samatha. With samatha, when the mind is quieted, when distracting mental turbulence is calmed, if you are not asleep, or overly absorbed in samadhi, you will be aware of thoughts, emotions, impulses, sounds, sights, smells, feelings etc etc. Isn't that vipassana?  Noting consciously but not necessarily verbally? I think the distinction was invented by extremists - people should do what they think is best for themselves - but I don't think meditation has to necessarily be exclusive one or the other. 


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html

One Tool Among Many
The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
...
But if you look directly at the Pali discourses — the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings — you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquillity, and vipassana to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassana — a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhana. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassana," but always "go do jhana." And they never equate the word vipassana with any mindfulness techniques. In the few instances where they do mention vipassana, they almost always pair it with samatha — not as two alternative methods, but as two qualities of mind that a person may "gain" or "be endowed with," and that should be developed together.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 9:34 AM as a reply to Nick O.
There's no need to be polemic about this stuff...

Just sitting is helpful when getting started
Noting is helpful to develop momentum.
Sensations of breathing is helpful when there is momentum and senstivity.
Inquiry is helpful when there is stagnation.
Penetrative investigation is helpful during A&P.
Noting is helpful in the aftershock of A&P and the beginning of the dark night.
Sensations of breathing and noting is helpful when digesting the dukka that comes up during the dukka nanas.
Bittersweet purfication sensations are helpful in cleaning up the dukka nanas.
Soaking in jhana is helpful when they start showing up.
Noting is extremely helpful when Reobservation hits like a brick wall.
Just sitting is helpful when EQ starts to develop.
Very gentle noting or saying "yes" on each outbreath is helpful for continuing EQ after the initial impact becomes normal.
Inquiry is helpful when there is stagnation.
Soaking in playful 4th jhana, meditating on the mindstream (the sound of thoughts), and while sleepy is helpful in late EQ

Every yogi should have multiple techiniques in their toolbox if they wish to attain Stream Entry. 

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 10:28 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Shargrol, 

Althouh one can't generalize, I have a theory that when diligent yogis seem to get great benefits from anapanasati and can seemingly cultivate that forever and just maintain increasing and increasing calm and relaxation, never seeming to experience extreme highs or extreme lows (the dukkha ñanas) - a situation which does seem to happen often enough, that was my case, for instance - it probably means that they already have experienced and digested  the knowledges of suffering from first path without making the connection with the POI descriptions, and are already quite established in EQ but haven't attained SE yet. 

What do you think ?

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 11:54 AM as a reply to Olivier.
without data it's all guessing emoticon  

sure some people begin meditation with strong psychological/philosophical insights... so they have less cleaning up to do in the dukka nanas.

but my experience is 98.43% of people have significant psychological development to undergo via the dukka nanas.

(did you know that 43.75% of statistics are just made up on the fly?)  emoticon

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 11:55 AM as a reply to shargrol.
(did you know that 43.75% of statistics are just made up on the fly?)  emoticon

That's all???

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 1:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
(did you know that 43.75% of statistics are just made up on the fly?)  emoticon

That's all???

79.99% of people laughed at this, but 45% of them learned something. One guy was not amused. It was me. I'm supposed to write a PhD grant proposal, and look at me...

edit. Not true. I loled

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 1:46 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
(did you know that 43.75% of statistics are just made up on the fly?)  emoticon

That's all???

Well, about half go unreported. emoticon

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 6:06 PM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
I practiced very dry vipassana a la MCTB / Mahasi rather intensely for a while including a couple Mahasi retreats. It's an incredibly powerful (and greuling) practice and it lead to deeply profound transformations.
...

I've switched to Anapanasati over the last year or so and it's been a real game changer.
...
Anapanasati and a lot of what is dicussed in the suttas involves clearing the mind of unwholesome states or sankaras and culitvating joy and satisfaction in their place. The dry vipassana camp is more about breaking down or refining conditioned perceptions of the senses. The latter is tremendously helpful but I see now that it is only part of the picture of what the Dhamma is all about; And that missing ingredient - joy/satisfaction - seems to be a cornerstone to Sila that some point out is missing in discussion 

When practicing Anapanasati I see the possibility and perhaps truth in typically orthodox ideals of enlightenment. I believe fetter-free attainments are possible even if maybe it takes monastic conditions to get there. Either way, getting embroiled in these arguments is not the path.

All that being said, I still owe a lot to the dry vipassana work. It's allowed the nice "wide refined emptiness" of perception to be the crucible for cultivating jhana and heaps of happiness and joy. I still think doing the dry work is a great place to start but some may see the eventual limitations.


I find this somewhat disquieting. I mean ... it makes me wonder if different people who use different techniques are experienceing different "enlightenments".   Are people having different experineces and calling it the same thing?

Then what is the "real enlightenment"?

What types of experiences does the full range of "enlightenment" include? Can they be characterized systematically?

Are they just different paths to full enlightenment or are there different varieties of full enlightenment?

Do any two people even have the same experience?

What is the point of practicing hard if one doesn't know if the result will be ... uh ... er ... the right kind of  enlightenment? What if it produces the wrong kind of enlightenment?

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 8:25 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Have you ever considered that you may already be in the dukkha nanas?

I didn't need any particular practice for that to happen. Life itself brings about plenty of insight, and that leeds to the dukkha nanas, thank goodness. 

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 8:41 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:


I find this somewhat disquieting. I mean ... it makes me wonder if different people who use different techniques are experienceing different "enlightenments".   Are people having different experineces and calling it the same thing? 

Then what is the "real enlightenment"?

What types of experiences does the full range of "enlightenment" include? Can they be characterized systematically?

Are they just different paths to full enlightenment or are there different varieties of full enlightenment?

Do any two people even have the same experience?

What is the point of practicing hard if one doesn't know if the result will be ... uh ... er ... the right kind of  enlightenment? What if it produces the wrong kind of enlightenment?

Everyone who is awakened awakes to the same thing: their own life. 

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/24/20 10:27 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Inquiry is helpful when there is stagnation
Penetrative investigation is helpful during A&P

Hi Shargrol,

How do you differentiate noting/inquiry/penetrative investigation?
I understand there are some differences but I'm not clear on what they are.

Maybe examples would help me.

Have a nice day,

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/27/20 7:49 AM as a reply to SushiK.
SushiK:
Inquiry is helpful when there is stagnation
Penetrative investigation is helpful during A&P

Hi Shargrol,

How do you differentiate noting/inquiry/penetrative investigation?
I understand there are some differences but I'm not clear on what they are.

Maybe examples would help me.

Have a nice day,

Noting is labelling sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts at fairly short intervals. "discomfort, presure, avoidance, frustration, worrying thoughts, comparing thoughts", etc. This usually helps with developing a continuity of mindfulness. 

Inquiry is asking a provoking question to encourage further investigation. "what is this?" "what observes this?" This is usually done slowly, with plenty of time to see what comes up after asking the question. This usually opens up perceptions and can help us find blindspots in how we look at things. 

Penetrative investigation is looking to see if there is something more subtle "behind" or "within" the obvious experience. "Okay, I feel boredom, but what are the specific sensations make up this feeling of boredom?"  This usually sharpens perception and leads to very precise and almost granular awareness of what arises in the moment.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/27/20 3:03 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I find Bhikkhu Buddhadada's book on anapanasati called Mindfulness of Breathing to be very helpful. It's close to the suttas (as far as I can tell) but broad enough  to cover a lot of the stuff that can arise in meditation. Personally I found vipassana and the Progress of Insight model useful to get things moving and figuring out the dukkha nanas, but now I seem to gravitate more to anapanasati although I will still keep noting and investigating when needed. I like the perspective that they're just different tools you can use at different times as your own practice dictates, although of course anapanasati is the most detailed meditation instruction from the Buddha's time.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/27/20 6:30 PM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
I practiced very dry vipassana a la MCTB / Mahasi rather intensely for a while including a couple Mahasi retreats. It's an incredibly powerful (and greuling) practice and it lead to deeply profound transformations. After a few trips around larger insight cycles, however, it began to show its limitations. I was always seeking that next insight or pass through equanimity into a path fruition to "fix" layers of suffering instead of cultivating skills that could provide immeditately attainable goals of piti, joy and happiness. 


One of the things I am not clear about with regard to noting is: is it the noting that produces the result or is it cessation. Is noting just a more convenient way of producting cessation than traditional cocentration meditation? You can get cessation with many forms of meditation, but will noting alone produce awakening without cessation? What is the role / effect of noting? 


Thanks in advance.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/28/20 6:53 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith
One of the things I am not clear about with regard to noting is: is it the noting that produces the result or is it cessation. Is noting just a more convenient way of producting cessation than traditional cocentration meditation? You can get cessation with many forms of meditation, but will noting alone produce awakening without cessation? What is the role / effect of noting? 


Noting simply maintains the continuity of mindfulness. And it doesn't allow stagnation because everything that is experienced become more fuel for developing the continuity of mindfulness. Mindfulness becomes so complete, that there is conformity, then there is cessation.

But all of this is like like saying that a marathon is a breaking a ribbon ---- nope, that's all at the end. The thing that noting does is walk your through more and more sensitive awareness that takes your through subtler stages of awareness, a long stint in EQ and then and only then do you run through thte ribbon. 

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/27/20 8:42 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Jim Smith:


One of the things I am not clear about with regard to noting is: is it the noting that produces the result or is it cessation. Is noting just a more convenient way of producting cessation than traditional cocentration meditation? You can get cessation with many forms of meditation, but will noting alone produce awakening without cessation? What is the role / effect of noting? 

Noting simply maintains the continuity of mindfulness. And it doesn't allow stagnation because everything that is experienced become more fuel for developing the continuity of mindfulness. Mindfulness becomes so complete, that there is conformity, then there is cessation.

But all of this is like like saying that a marathon is a breaking a ribbon ---- nope, that's all at the end. The thing that noting does is walk your through more and more sensitive awareness that takes your through subtler stages of awareness, a long stint in EQ and then and only then do you run through thte ribbon. 


Are you saying noting causes cessation in a way that is different from how other forms of meditation cause cessation?

Can you explain in more detail how noting brings about cessation?

I thought cessation happens when you lose consciousness because the mind is stilled by meditation, and in the absence of the the activity of the mind, you can "see things as they really are".

You wrote "Mindfulness becomes so complete, that there is conformity, then there is cessation."

How can complete mindfulness lead to cessation when cessation is unconsciousness? It sounds like a contradiction.

What is conformity? How does it cause cessation?

Thanks in advance.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/27/20 9:16 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
http://mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/


https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/12-conformity/


https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/14-path/


https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/32-what-was-that/

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/28/20 5:34 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
http://mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/


https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/12-conformity/


https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/14-path/


https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/32-what-was-that/
Shargrol,

Thank you for looking up those references I appreciate your effort to answer my questions.

Unfortunately, for some reason I cannot explain, whenever I try to read that book, my mind does not convert the words into understanding. 

I opened those links in my browser and examined the letters and words and sentances and paragraphs, but still, I found my mind did not convert them into understanding. I even searched for the word cessation but my browser couldn't find it.

On the other hand I have very little trouble understanding what you write.

I would really appreciate it if you would tell me, in your own words, how noting causes cessation.

Thank you.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/28/20 7:53 PM as a reply to Jim Smith.
I respectfully decline.

Here's a audio recording that will save you from having to read anything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udftBBYGXmQ 

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/29/20 12:14 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
I respectfully decline.

Here's a audio recording that will save you from having to read anything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udftBBYGXmQ 


Is this close?

Noting causes you to perceive each sensation: sight, sound, smell, feeling, etc and mental activity: each thought, emotion, impulse, etc, as a distinct moment of conciousness distinct from preceding and subsequent moments of conciousness.

When you get good at this, you start to noice the gaps between moments of consciousness.

When you look into the gaps, you experience cessation.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/29/20 12:50 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:


Is this close?

Noting causes you to perceive each sensation: sight, sound, smell, feeling, etc and mental activity: each thought, emotion, impulse, etc, as a distinct moment of conciousness distinct from preceding and subsequent moments of conciousness.

When you get good at this, you start to noice the gaps between moments of consciousness.

When you look into the gaps, you experience cessation.

And I can explain why the question is important to me.

If I don't know the answer, then I think: I have to meditate several hours a day year after year until something magical happens and I experience cessation (and awakening). This kind of thing de-motivates me because I don't trust magic. 

If I do know the answer I think:all I  have to do is this process which I understand and I can experience cessation (and awakening). This is highly motivating because I know what to do, I can tell if I'm doing it right, I can see if I am getting better at it, etc. it is under my power to reach the goal. I don't have to hope the magic works. I don't need faith because I can test the process to some extent based on experience even before I reach the goal.

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/29/20 3:59 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
How does anapanasati work if not magic ?

I know you're not interested in actual discussion, but still, on that one, you're lowering the standard jim...

RE: Thanasiro Bikkhu on how Anapanasati Leads to Stream Entry
Answer
8/29/20 6:12 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Ron Crouch has (had) a web site on the progress of insight that I find very easy to understand and I highly recommend it.

A few hours after I first found the site I started getting an error page saying the site was deleted, but it is on the wayback machine:

Path (overview of the stages)
https://web.archive.org/web/20141020082643/http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/the-map/

Stages 1-3 - Ron groups these as the The Physio-Cognitive stages
https://web.archive.org/web/20150315043143/http://alohadharma.com/the-map/the-physio-cognitive-stage/

A&P stage 4
https://web.archive.org/web/20121116093448/http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/the-ap/

Dark Night stages 5 - 10
https://web.archive.org/web/20121116234857/http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/the-dark-night/

Equanimity stage 11
https://web.archive.org/web/20141019102026/http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/equanimity/

Cessation stages 12 -17
https://web.archive.org/web/20150315043206/http://alohadharma.com/2011/06/29/cessation/