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Opinions on the 4th path model

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Opinions on the 4th path model Oatmilk 8/29/20 6:09 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Jim Smith 8/29/20 11:49 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Oatmilk 8/30/20 2:49 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model An Eternal Now 8/30/20 9:35 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Oatmilk 8/30/20 10:40 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model An Eternal Now 9/1/20 7:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model An Eternal Now 9/1/20 7:45 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 11:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Jim Smith 8/30/20 6:53 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 8/30/20 7:32 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 11:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 8/31/20 6:29 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 11:43 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Chris Marti 8/31/20 3:24 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Oatmilk 8/31/20 3:55 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 8/31/20 4:00 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 11:43 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 8/31/20 7:00 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 11:44 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Olivier 9/1/20 3:59 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 9/1/20 5:56 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 11:44 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Chris Marti 9/1/20 8:14 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 12:40 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Chris Marti 9/1/20 11:20 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Olivier 9/1/20 11:25 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 12:40 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 9/1/20 12:25 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 1:53 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Chris Marti 9/1/20 11:50 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Bismuth 9/1/20 1:09 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Chris Marti 9/1/20 3:14 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Dhamma_no_drama 9/1/20 9:45 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Pepe 9/2/20 4:20 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Oatmilk 9/2/20 5:54 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 9/2/20 6:53 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model James 9/2/20 6:55 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 9/2/20 8:42 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Pepe 9/4/20 8:58 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 9/4/20 10:05 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model James 9/9/20 9:11 PM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model mrdust 9/10/20 9:16 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model shargrol 9/10/20 10:11 AM
RE: Opinions on the 4th path model Not two, not one 9/2/20 5:32 AM
Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/29/20 6:09 PM
Hey all, 

this post is dedicated to those who have attained MCTB 4th path, it would be great to hear your opinion on the matter. 
Note: 
This was posted on the r/streamentry reddit. 
From the post it seems like MCTB 4th path matches with the canonical Stream Entry/First Bhumi. 
This would be interesting of course, since the MCTB 4th path model then wouldn't make much sense anymore (or does it?).
Since I cannot properly copy and paste the entire comment due to the citation's, I will post the link to the topic: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/

Forgive me in advance please, I'm absolutely not an expert with the different Sutta descriptions and my knowledge of Buddhist terminology only includes the range of pragmatic Dharma.

Thanks much(:


RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/29/20 11:49 PM as a reply to Oatmilk.
Oatmilk:


I don't claim any attainments, but I really loved that article, so much I agree with. Can you tell me if the author has a web site? I would like to learn more about his beliefs, the type of meditation he recommends etc. Are there forums where he posts regularly?


Thanks

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/30/20 2:49 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Hey Jim, 

I liked it too but I don't know if he has a wesbite or such. 

-O

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/30/20 9:35 AM as a reply to Jim Smith.
Jim Smith:
Oatmilk:


I don't claim any attainments, but I really loved that article, so much I agree with. Can you tell me if the author has a web site? I would like to learn more about his beliefs, the type of meditation he recommends etc. Are there forums where he posts regularly?


Thanks

I don't think he has a website, but he posts as 'Myriad Objects' in my Facebook group 'Awakening to Reality'

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/30/20 10:40 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
I read some of your posts and wanted to ask what you think about using a journal for self inquiry and if you have any advice on how to get started(: 

Thanks much! 

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:42 AM as a reply to Oatmilk.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/30/20 6:53 PM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth:
...

Where it does matter however is that putting wrong ideas in to people heads because it is just bad karma.

Very true. But good people may disagree. That's why we have discussion forums. Right Speech involves more than truth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html
Right Speech is the third of the eight path factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, and belongs to the virtue division of the path.

The definition
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

Five keys to right speech
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

...
Much more at the link.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/30/20 7:32 PM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth:

3rd fetter is about clinging to methods pretty much. Doing on-cushion meditation practices with instructions I view as pretty much form of ritual but any method falls under 3rd fetter really and this even include effortless instantaneous actions which can make what seems as miracles happen. 


This is extremely incorrect, pretty much as far off as you can be.

The fetter of "attachment to rites and rituals" means being fettered to the belief that a ceremony or ritual or religious rite can confer awakening to a person.

Practice methods, however, are not part of the third fetter. In fact, stream entry confirms that nothing except meditiation practice is going to lead to awakening. 

 

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:42 AM as a reply to shargrol.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/31/20 6:29 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
You haven't convinced me. 3rd fetter is pretty simple and clear. Investigation into the nature of greed, aversion, and indifference through medtation practices are the path, rites and rituals that lack investigation into the nature of mind are not. Noting practice supports the former, is not the latter.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:43 AM as a reply to shargrol.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/31/20 3:24 PM as a reply to Bismuth.
Put me in shargrol's camp - that's the "not convinced" group.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/31/20 3:55 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
@Chris Marti @Sharhrol, would you both mind sharing your opinion on the topic above? I'd be really interested in what you have to say about this. 

-O

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/31/20 4:00 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm in the not convinced camp too. Awakening is not an intellectual enterprise and not a popularity contest. It’s reality waking up to itself because the practice cuts through the narrow mind’s shortsightedness. There is no way one could reason onself into awakening, as the reasoning is part of the problem. But hey, you are all welcome to try. Nobody is stopping you.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:43 AM as a reply to Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
8/31/20 7:00 PM as a reply to Bismuth.
You're making this very complicated. Notice that "attachment to meditation practices" is not described in the third fetter. 

Very simple. Not complicated.



If you don't want to meditate, that's fine. No big deal. I don't play tuba, no big deal. But harshing on meditation in a forum for people who are interested in meditation... well, it seems kind of odd -- doesn't it?  Would it make sense to harsh on tuba playing on the tuba playing forum? emoticon

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:44 AM as a reply to shargrol.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 3:59 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Third fetter = losing attachment to rites and rituals. Whether one is attached to meditation practices by this time is besides the point. No one here has suggested attachment to meditation practice is necessary, and your first point wasn't about that - you guys were talking about the third fetter.

Simple, as Shargrol said.

The third fetter does not mean one loses attachment to meditation practices. In fact, stream enterers can have  attachment to meditation practices and often do...

However,
Where did I write anything that would suggest I am "hashing on" meditation practices?

well you did say meditation practice had the same soteriological status as rites and rituals, which obviously none of the people who are active on this thread agree with. Here, everybody is of the opinion, like the buddha, that some kind of effective practice is necessary for waking up, and that this skilful practice is not the same as rites and rituals, as the third fetter notion examplifies pretty clearly. There is cause and effect in the buddhist path, some practices are the path and some are not, some are conducive to awakening, and some are not. Saying the contrary, is by definition "hashing on meditation practices" my friend emoticon
 
Now, whether or not one is attached to these practices is another question entirely. 

I hope this clarifies your confusion.

Have a good day.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 5:56 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth, you're hilarious! emoticon You obviously have a mental blindspot, which is starting to make me think you're just  young and trying to naively figure this stuff out.
Bismuth:
People here are like "meditate for long enough and your perception will change to non-duality and without sense of self in your experience you won't suffer because sense of self is like very very bad" and this is simply bullshit.

!

Bismuth:

I am well aware of non-dualty as I did get "technical 4th path"..."

!

Bismuth:

If I come up as someone who uses normal mind state and uses mostly intellectual reasoning then your impression is spot on. I am using normal mind state with sense of self which I used almost two decades ago. I am testing how well I will be able to describe causes of suffering and ways of its ellimination from within this normal mind state.

!

Bismuth:
I am also testing responses of people to this kind of me.

!

It's really really really obvious you simply don't know anything about meditation besides what you have read and intellectually tried to process. And you're kinda trolling, right?

And any bad psychologist would see that you are basically projecting all of your insecurities on other people, reading books without experiene, suffering when trying to do meditation, closing yourself down with just the intellect...

... If all you have are books full of concepts which you never experienced ... I would even say that trying to do it will only create suffering...Exactly because closing yourself in one framework created by one way of doing things makes you shortsighted and dependent and lost without it one should not get attached to anything, be it intellectual reasoning, rites, rituals, etc.


So, since you're going through all this trouble trying to figure things out... why not try actually developing a daily meditation practice and see how that goes? That's what this forum is all about. emoticon

Hope this helps in some way.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 7:42 AM as a reply to Oatmilk.
Oatmilk:
I read some of your posts and wanted to ask what you think about using a journal for self inquiry and if you have any advice on how to get started(: 

Thanks much! 


Hmm.. I didn't start a journal until I attained Self-Realization aka Thusness Stage 1. After that realization, on the advice of Thusness (my mentor John Tan), I started writing my insights and experiences. It later exploded into a too-long-to-read journal which you can find in my blog, along with another exploding too-long-to-read guide that needs a lot of editing and trimming which I have no time for.

But when self enquiring, just inquire and contemplate the very nature of your mind/consciousness/experience honestly and sincerely and earnestly. Don't think of writing down for that moment because that can lead to more conceptualization, not that it is very bad but for the purpose of practice that's not the right time to do so. Just inquire into the source, or whatever is your subject of contemplation. For self enquiry ala Advaita or Hua Tou, just inquire into the Source -- before birth, who am I?

The same for whatever practices you are doing, be it vipassana, shamatha, etc. When practicing just do the practice, nothing else, then write later if you feel there is something worthy to write/take note/etc, be it lessons, insights, experiences, whatever.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 7:45 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
In future when you have certain breakthroughs and insights, it might be good to write something down to clarify your thoughts, expression, and for other purposes like future reference and sharing. My advise is try not to be constrained by the technicalities of scriptures but express creatively from your moment to moment actualization of lived insights. (Although I do recommend reading scriptures, just not to be constrained by learnt knowledge and words you read)


"But you're expected to live as this vibrant brilliance, non-arising clarity. Or awareness. Uncontrieved. You're expected to feel the entire energy, entire aliveness, brilliance. It's not something that is dead. So you should look back the things that you write, what is called the mind level, what is called *snaps* you understood. They're different. So that next time when you try to say, you are not trying to explain something. You can explain certain things, but certain things you cannot explain and teach. Certain things you can teach, certain things the more you teach the worse it becomes.

Certain things, like     Not relying on words or letters.
    An independent transmission outside the teaching of the scriptures.
    Directly pointing to man's Mind.
    Awakening of one's (Original-) Nature, thereby actualizing one's own Buddhahood.

Cannot... the less words, the better. It is just a face to face communication. In that communication, you have to observe the entire conditions, then ! You understood. This is then important. Everything is very raw, first hand, then when you feel it, your entire body-mind burst, and that's it. You understood. Then it becomes very alive. You feel and do everything... it's all these aliveness. Marvellous. Your understanding is all direct. And when you understand that moment, it is a heart to heart... you feel deep inside your heart. But you must learn how to release. Because also when you feel direct, there is also a problem. Because it touch deeper. So you must know how to release." - John Tan, 2012, https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/p/a-conversation-with-john-tan-some-time.html



[3:03 PM, 4/22/2019] John Tan: Dogen Expressions is full of life and creativity.


[11:36 PM, 7/11/2020] John Tan: I find u r restricted to the teachings, u must be able to walk out the constrains and restrictions.  Once u r directly Intouch with connected, open up ur potential.
[11:40 PM, 7/11/2020] John Tan: And don't kept discussing and engaging in idle conversations.  Also don't keep talking abt me, I do not need ppl to know abt me...I m quite popular already in my own business and financial space... Dun need any more fameemoticonemoticonemoticon.  Spiritual development is own personal development. Funny keep talking.
[9:04 AM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Although tibetan buddhism mostly talk abt seeing DO and emptiness of all phenomena, u must also see how by being empty of essence, dynamism and creativity r made possible.

Look at zen, enlightenment is full of vibrancy, intuitiveness and creativity.  So see the creative sparks, playfulness and spontaneous blosoming of life in each and every expression from anatta.

The ancient chinese sages continuously gain precious insights from exploring the nature of yin yang 5 elements and understand the patterns of the universe to understand more about oneself.  This is also true in Confucianism, 格物致知 is an important concept for them.

So post anatta, one must not only see the freedom from attachments from emptiness, but must also taste directly the spontaneous creativity and potentialities by being lack of essence.  This part I still see lacking in ur expression.


[3:31 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: I m referring to actual creativity .  When u see, think, taste...the sparks of insights, ur creative expression, joy in exploring and new skills, learning new things..etc
[3:34 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Post anatta, u must feel this potential dancing vibrantly as engentic display and expression.
[3:36 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Even when I sit quietly now, radiance r piercing through everywhere dancing now...that is y I do yoga and breathing exercises to regulate.
[3:38 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah i also feel bright radiance all the time..
[3:38 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: And joy
[3:39 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Like in ur piotr conversations, I wanted to tell u the importance of y leg over head is important for opening channels if u r mindful but because I know u will post here and there  I refrain from writing.
[3:40 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: I just don't want u to keep sparking new agruments on productive stuff, focus and channel ur energy on the right track.
[3:40 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[3:41 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: U feel bright and joyful, can u feel bright and joyful when u r my age is a different story...lol

[3:43 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Anatta is not a no self into nihilism otherwise u won't talk so much about it.  U feel non-dual, transparent, vibrant, energetic and full of joy without boundaries.
[3:43 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: That is y u know u r in the right direction.
[3:44 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah
[3:45 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: So open up and release this potential...like experiencing the 易 in 易经...
[3:46 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: 生生之为易 did I tell u before?
[3:46 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Mentioned before i think over decade ago but didnt understand previously.. its more like life potential towards creative expressions?
[3:47 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Yes
[3:50 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Therefore u hear 不孝有三,无后为大 or 天地之大得曰生。u see pictures and drawings of horses galloping, fishes swiming emoticonemoticonemoticon

[3:58 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Means they r emphasizing creative vibrancy of life
[3:59 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[3:59 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: It can be any activity
[3:59 PM, 7/12/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[6:15 PM, 7/12/2020] John Tan: Some times I like watching animation...some of the anime can describe anatta and total exertion experience quite well emoticonemoticonemoticon

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:44 AM as a reply to shargrol.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 8:14 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth, can we reset this discussion, please? You're being really aggressive with your language and that's getting in the way of being able to communicate. People won't listen if all you do is insult them, infer that they're idiots, and refuses to consider their replies. You have also failed to do any homework on who you're talking to - mainly people with a lot of experience on the path, in meditation and not-meditation. It would behoove you to do that work.

So... can you state in a few choice sentences what your main issue is but without referencing another person?

Thanks,

A DhO Moderator

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 12:40 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:20 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth, lawyering me won't work. I've been reading along on this topic the entire time. I can see what's going on. The ball is in your court - please drop all the previous baggage and make a fresh start. I think if you do it with some amount of humility, and without referencing anyone else, you'll see this is actually a good place to ask the important questions and have meaningful dialog about them without rancor and antagonism. The vast majority of new posters on DhO manage to do that, and I think you can, too.

Please give it a try.

Thanks

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:25 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth, I'll just spill it out for you : Chris and Shargrol are both arahats, have a few decades of practice under their belts, both now ingram and others personally, and are the main DhO moderators. emoticon (Sorry about the publicity guys but ;))

Nobody has implied that attachment to meditation practices is a good thing that should not be questionned. You guys were talking about THE DEFINITION OF THIRD FETTER. emoticon

For a bit of background you could start by going through this compilation of very original and profound writings by shargrol : https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Or this journal documenting chris's path, starting over a decade ago : http://awakenetwork.org/magazine/cmarti/70

H
ave fun. Cheers !

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 11:50 AM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth, how does deleting all of your posts help the situation? I'm offering you a Get Out of Jail Free card. Use it!

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 12:40 PM as a reply to Olivier.
POST DELETED DUE TO POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE CONTENT
~ DhO self moderation

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 12:25 PM as a reply to Bismuth.
Bismuth:
Arhat should have at least some idea about which fetter is about loosing attachement to meditative practices. If not 3rd then maybe 7th which is actually very good fit or 10th of ignorance.

Yes, I agree. The latter fetters are more closely related to attachment to meditation.

6. material-rebirth desire - this is attachment to a good conventional life as well as the first four jhanas
7. immaterial-rebirth desire - this is attachment to the latter jhanas
8. conceit -- this is attachement to the security provided by the "I AM" state, which is sometimes created by meditation techniques
9. restlessness -- this is attachment to needing to change the current experience, which is sometimes fostered by meditation techniques
10. ignorance -- this is attachment to a life strategy of protecting an assumed self

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 1:09 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Bismuth, how does deleting all of your posts help the situation? I'm offering you a Get Out of Jail Free card. Use it!
1. You said there is suffering caused by my posts.
2. I could not really see what is it that offended you other than my ideas themselves and their implications if they were true.
3. Not knowing what to keep and what to delete I cleared everything.
4. There is only suffering here so good bye and good luck at being Arhat or whatever.

Metta

ps. I will delete rest of my posts later.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 1:53 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Yes, I agree. The latter fetters are more closely related to attachment to meditation.
You can do formed and formless jhanas without meditation practices and call these mind states itself a meditation.

This is why I operate under assumption that 3rd fetter is about dropping attachment to meditation practices. Not not doing them but not seeing them as necessary and only as something nice and beneficial when they happen.
Latter fetters for me mean dropping attachment to meditation and its various mind states. Not not experiencing them but not seeing them as necessary and only as something nice and beneficial when they happen.

Also because you should not be destined to hell realms, hungry ghost realms and animal realms I assumed you should be able to do jhanas at any life situation. Maybe not with efficiency of an Arhat but nevertheless quick enough to get to most basic forms of jhanic mind that any suffering that is experienced is too small to call it as being reborn in these realms. Human or Asura who wander to these realms do not suffer all that much and the latter one might even have some fun there. Gods do not suffer at all.

And if you can simply do meditation then why would you even keep an attachment to meditation practices? Good, beneficial, train your mind, calm your mind (except Vipassana maybe...) and generally can unlock new skills. Itself however not the point, not the destination thus dropping attachment to them is easy. At least easier than dropping attachment to formed and formless jhanas. And again, dropping attachment is not equal to not doing them. Just making this big step in to Buddha understandng of these things vs. non-Buddha understanding which is seeing attachment beneficial because it motivates you for action. Buddhadharma is imho about non-attachment being what can make one not suffer and not suffering is itself the greatest pleasure one can experience. Any attachment is wrong and using any attachment for motivation is wrong view and wrong action. Practice which originate in wrong view lead to even more wrong view, except maybe when Buddha stops this. Buddha being the enlightened mind. Loosing doubt in Buddha is loosing doubt in owne enlightened mind being there for you to aid you to break your wrong view and stop any wrong action, etc.

This is my reasoning based on how it is for me. I am Stream Enterer and for me equating 3rd fetter to rites and rituals does not make any logical or practical sense. So I believe suttas were altered and when I read them I ignore anything which run-of-the-mill people could have altered to support their ignorant ways.

Believing in suttas word for word does not make you appaear stupid as much as it makes me appear completely mad and after some deiberation appear as distrusting and after even more deliberation hopefully a genius XP

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 3:14 PM as a reply to Bismuth.
. You said there is suffering caused by my posts.
2. I could not really see what is it that offended you other than my ideas themselves and their implications if they were true.
3. Not knowing what to keep and what to delete I cleared everything.
4. There is only suffering here so good bye and good luck at being Arhat or whatever.

Metta

ps. I will delete rest of my posts later.

Bismuth, after multiple requests for you to be civil and just start over, you seem incapable of doing that and keep coming back with passive aggressive, insulting comments. So... I've locked out
 your account. That seems to me to be the simplest and most effective course of action for everyone. 




RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/1/20 9:45 PM as a reply to Oatmilk.
Oatmilk:
Hey all, 

this post is dedicated to those who have attained MCTB 4th path, it would be great to hear your opinion on the matter. 
Note: 
This was posted on the r/streamentry reddit. 
From the post it seems like MCTB 4th path matches with the canonical Stream Entry/First Bhumi. 
This would be interesting of course, since the MCTB 4th path model then wouldn't make much sense anymore (or does it?).
Since I cannot properly copy and paste the entire comment due to the citation's, I will post the link to the topic: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/

Forgive me in advance please, I'm absolutely not an expert with the different Sutta descriptions and my knowledge of Buddhist terminology only includes the range of pragmatic Dharma.

Thanks much(:


Now that the conflict was resolved, would be great to hear you guys thoughts on the link.

emoticon

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/2/20 4:20 AM as a reply to Dhamma_no_drama.
Shargrol already gave his opinion in that thread. Control+F: "There is a big misconception about Ingram's model that people overlook"  

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/2/20 5:32 AM as a reply to Dhamma_no_drama.
Dhamma_no_drama:
Oatmilk:
Hey all, 

this post is dedicated to those who have attained MCTB 4th path, it would be great to hear your opinion on the matter. 
Note: 
This was posted on the r/streamentry reddit. 
From the post it seems like MCTB 4th path matches with the canonical Stream Entry/First Bhumi. 
This would be interesting of course, since the MCTB 4th path model then wouldn't make much sense anymore (or does it?).
Since I cannot properly copy and paste the entire comment due to the citation's, I will post the link to the topic: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/

Forgive me in advance please, I'm absolutely not an expert with the different Sutta descriptions and my knowledge of Buddhist terminology only includes the range of pragmatic Dharma.

Thanks much(:


Now that the conflict was resolved, would be great to hear you guys thoughts on the link.

emoticon

Well, yes and no.  From all accounts cessation seems to be mental reboot that reliably leads to stream entry and also contributes to higher paths.  But 'conscious' cessation is not the only way (that is, people can progress without noticing cessations, although arguably they still have them). And cessation does not get you all the way.

But all that other stuff from later bikkhus... I dunno.  The suttas are crystal clear, once you understand them. To my mind the suttas precisely desribe the experiences that are sometimes reported on this fourm (and elsewhere), although you have to decode them a little from the cultural filter of ancient northern Indian monasticism, and have the direct experience of the phenomenology to understand what they are on about.

And as for lust, as discssed in the post ... that is one of those cultural filters. You know all this obsession about sexual lust is a cultral error.  The true meaning of the fourth fetter is any kind of sensual clinging.  But we are so - er - 'stuffed up' in western soceity that we think this must be about hankering after sex and that this is somehow 'worse' or 'less natural' than hankering after a nice cup of tea, or a sunset, or the next formless realm.  Sex is not better or worse than any other kind of lustful clinging, except maybe that is has a biofeedback mechnism that encourages the clinging.

So the fouth fetter is really about binding to craving. It gets ministinterpreted as sexual lust, and then that gets further confused as there are moments of great bodily calm on the path, and these can be continued through absoprtion in the monastic path, and this can be mistaken as a desirable end state that should be stabilised.  But sexual deisre is not the fourth fetter.  Just ask Drukpa Kunely and his flying thunderbolt of wisdom that converted Bhutan to buddhism.  Look it up.

In my opinion, because of this confusion, the ten fetter model is only about 80% right. It is brilliantly insightful, but it still does great harm, as it encourages people to model the erroneous 100% 'right' version and as a result they suppress their mammalian emotions and physical reactions, and become prone to being a bit fucked up as a result.

If you think this is a harsh analysis, please consider the history of guru abuse in Buddhism and indeed all religions.  If you want to be awakened, then develop a better relations with your sex drive. Don't cling to it, don't suppress it, and don't absorb yourself in it, or you will be just another abusive guru. Denial is not the dharma.

Just my didactic late night opinions.  Sorry

Malcolm

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/2/20 5:54 AM as a reply to Pepe.
Pepe:
Shargrol already gave his opinion in that thread. Control+F: "There is a big misconception about Ingram's model that people overlook"  


I'd love to know which misconception.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/2/20 6:53 AM as a reply to Oatmilk.
Oatmilk, just read the post on reddit. pepe is giving you the lead in sentence so that you can find it on that page.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/2/20 6:55 AM as a reply to Oatmilk.
Oatmilk:
Pepe:
Shargrol already gave his opinion in that thread. Control+F: "There is a big misconception about Ingram's model that people overlook"  


I'd love to know which misconception.

go here: https://www.reddit.com/user/shargrol/
search "big misconception" and you should see it . at least on desktop. 

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/2/20 8:42 AM as a reply to James.
i'd like to print out those reddit ~200+ pages of comments into a text file --- anybody know how to do that easily? cut and paste and printing to PDF doesn't seem to work.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/4/20 8:58 AM as a reply to shargrol.
This might help you (never done it myself).

How to download reddit posts


The Reddit Data  Extractor "is a cross-platform GUI tool for downloading almost any content posted to reddit. Downloads from specific users, specific subreddits, specific users by subreddit, and with filters on the content is supported". 

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/4/20 10:05 AM as a reply to Pepe.
Thanks Pepe!

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/9/20 9:11 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
i'd like to print out those reddit ~200+ pages of comments into a text file --- anybody know how to do that easily? cut and paste and printing to PDF doesn't seem to work.


Please do and add them to the blogspot collection if possible. That blogspot collection has helped me more than you can imagine. 

Along with a few other posts which I wrote about in my recent what was that. Your help on dealing with these was the only thing that helped. 

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/10/20 9:16 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
i'd like to print out those reddit ~200+ pages of comments into a text file --- anybody know how to do that easily? cut and paste and printing to PDF doesn't seem to work.


If the tool Pepe linked doesn't work and you'd like a hand with data scraping or formatting let me know. Would be happy to help.

RE: Opinions on the 4th path model
Answer
9/10/20 10:11 AM as a reply to mrdust.
I'm good mrdust, but thanks for the offer!