Thanissaro - there is awareness in the deathless - Discussion
Small Steps:
It's only the Burmese, and in this particular case, the Mahasi Sayadaw lineage (iirc) that talks about Nibbana this way, in the extinguishing of the five aggregates (cessation). In a thread long since past, I referenced this talk by Guy Armstrong, wherein he contrasts this notion with other Buddhist traditions' explanations and expectations.
https://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/79/talk/2440/
https://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/79/talk/2440/
very interesting talk , thank you! Seems like Guy is also unsure about this Nirvana experience/not-experience
he does say that his intuition feels that the Awareness is still being part of it, like that "beaming sun light coming into the house through the east window and hitting the west wall" anology from the Buddha (Thanissaro used that anology in the link Ive posted above)I do like one of those questions at the end of his talk where the person asked about the 3 Kayas and if this experience/not-experience of Nirvana has anything to do with which of those 3 kayas one is practicing in. I can live with that explanation as a possibility of having different "experience" of Nirvana.
Ok, nuf talk
back to practicing! Thank you all for chiming in!
I like how this thread is developing 
I think it's freeing to assume that not all must have exact same experience. It opens for new possibilities. It's an infinite universe after all
Dukkha still remains as the best guide as do Anicca and Anatta. No matter what one experience, these 3 will show the fact.
I think it's freeing to assume that not all must have exact same experience. It opens for new possibilities. It's an infinite universe after all Dukkha still remains as the best guide as do Anicca and Anatta. No matter what one experience, these 3 will show the fact.
Papa Che Dusko:
I like how this thread is developing I think it's freeing to assume that not all must have exact same experience. It opens for new possibilities. It's an infinite universe after all
I think it's freeing to assume that not all must have exact same experience. It opens for new possibilities. It's an infinite universe after all "This universe is for you!"
That's from an out of body book I read years ago. The guy finally manages to do his first OBE and is floating down the street near his house that night and passes a playground. There is a little kid there playing and he goes up to him and the kid looks at him and says that.
Yes, there is awareness in the deathless. Arahants by definition experience the deathless 24/7 and obviously they are aware. When the mind through insight and tranquility comes to a stop, then awareness drops all phenomena, it stands free outside all things, all experiences. You cannot make this happen. The very act of trying to see anything creates far too much agitation in the mind for awareness to release. Through calming the body and mind together while maintaining clear awareness the activity of the mind falls away until it releases. Thanisarro describes this as an awareness outside of time and space which is quite accurate.
Here is a description from an insight practitioner being guided by a very well known Insight meditation teacher in Sri Lanka (he was also the teacher of Ayya Kemma and Ven. Nanananda - author of Nibanna: The Mind Stilled):
Now I have had another experience extremely difficult to describe. I meditated for about 1 1/2 hours and had reached a good state of Samadhi. The next thing I realized was that I had got out of Samadhi, but not before I had experienced an extraordinary level of Peace and Rest, never before experienced. I had been transformed into the quality of Peace and completely unconscious of myself -It was a subtle and immaterial experience. All the other experiences I have had so far ( of dissolving and disappearing into a mist etc,) seemed gross and material in comparison. I was not sure if I was asleep when I experienced this, (but I never fall asleep) Time did not seem to come into this experience (In earlier experiences I had always known roughly how long the experience lasted) Now time did not seem to function. The Peace was of the quality of that found in sleep -Perhaps that was why I thought I had been asleep. All other experiences I could describe clearly -but this was of a new order. Completely intangible to both senses and mind -Was I awake or asleep when it occurred and what was it?
The Teachers Response:
The Venerable Nayaka Thero is in receipt of your letter of the 19th. When I had translated it to him, he announced that at last you have reason to be happy that your endeavours are 'Fruite'-ful. That 'extraordinary level of Peace and Rest never before experienced' in which you 'had been transformed into the quality of Peace' ....... etc.is the Fruit of Stream -winning( Sotapattiphala) . It is the taste of Bliss of Nibbana -the true awakening ("was I awake of sleep?" you were more awake than asleep ) The fact that "Time did not seem to come into this experience" shows that it is a supermundane level. ("All other experiences I have had so far .... seemed gross and material in comparison").
-source
Of course, the Thai Forest Tradition doesn't use insight practice but as you are familiar with it I thought it might help to see how this teacher employs it.
Some thoughts: if your mind is capable of holding the thought ‘is this it?’ or ‘how can I see this?’ you haven’t reached a sufficient level of tranquility. Focus totally on the practice and let it come when it comes. As for how to practice, if you read through the freed freedom document (above) and also familiarize yourself with his book The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight Knowledges this should give you something to work with.
Thanissaros take on what is behind the momentary blips of nothingness is that it is caused by a lack of tranquility. When the mind is forced into the present moment, it just blanks out – instead of fully entering into it. I came to a similar conclusion myself. I also think this is why these blips have to keep being brought about over and over again and why Daniel doesn’t make much of the three fetters model of stream entry. When you fully experience the deathless - an unimaginably vast awareness outside of time and space devoid of all fabrications - it has quite an impact on your view of the world and reality in general.
Thank you Chuck for sharing your view and experience on this. As I said I'm certainly ok with those on tranquility paths to have different Nirvana experience than those on Vipassana noting path.
However I'm not happy with Thanissaro making a laugh out Mahasi tradition on several occasions
I know what this "blip" cessation was back in Jun 2019 and so do many other in noting tradition, weather they had repetitive fruition's or not. There are other indicators than that.
And yes, there is no way one can hold a thought "is this it" during utter cessation. One is totally OUT as in no memory of IT at all. Only after consciousness rebooting back online does one get a clear sense of something gone utterly lost and question "what was that???" did arise for me. However no special feeling tone was there for me. Everything felt very normal, no bliss no fuss.
Im ok with the idea that other traditions have different experience. Maybe those traditions could be also more open to that possibility
Btw, I did not "force" anything into a "blip" At that time I was off cushion playing with my little son. Mind was already for about 3 weeks in Equanimity so effort and forcing was absolutely not there.
EDIT; just to add something I find very important. If you cansay that it was a "Blip" then its not Cessation in my expereince. There is no way one can say how long it lasted. No way. Blip is something short. I have beelps in image space happen often, just like on a slide projector when flipping images, goes very fast. This is not it, IME that is
When consciousness returned and had to look around to see where I was as clearly I was still walking and I wanted to determine how long I was "out" and it looked like I was in very much in the part of forest where I was before the utter gone fact. I also looked at my son to see if he is maybe telling me to answer him something as he is a very lively fellow and needs often for us to react to his words but he was still just blabbing about something so again I assumed it could not passed that much time. Again, there is no way one can call Cessation a "blip" in my experience that is. But I am open to the idea that others have oposing experiences. Its an infinite universe afterall and I see no reason to limit all creation to my personal experience
p.s. excuse my spell errors my computers spell check refuses to work.
However I'm not happy with Thanissaro making a laugh out Mahasi tradition on several occasions
I know what this "blip" cessation was back in Jun 2019 and so do many other in noting tradition, weather they had repetitive fruition's or not. There are other indicators than that.
And yes, there is no way one can hold a thought "is this it" during utter cessation. One is totally OUT as in no memory of IT at all. Only after consciousness rebooting back online does one get a clear sense of something gone utterly lost and question "what was that???" did arise for me. However no special feeling tone was there for me. Everything felt very normal, no bliss no fuss.
Im ok with the idea that other traditions have different experience. Maybe those traditions could be also more open to that possibility
Btw, I did not "force" anything into a "blip"
At that time I was off cushion playing with my little son. Mind was already for about 3 weeks in Equanimity so effort and forcing was absolutely not there. EDIT; just to add something I find very important. If you cansay that it was a "Blip" then its not Cessation in my expereince. There is no way one can say how long it lasted. No way. Blip is something short. I have beelps in image space happen often, just like on a slide projector when flipping images, goes very fast. This is not it, IME that is
When consciousness returned and had to look around to see where I was as clearly I was still walking and I wanted to determine how long I was "out" and it looked like I was in very much in the part of forest where I was before the utter gone fact. I also looked at my son to see if he is maybe telling me to answer him something as he is a very lively fellow and needs often for us to react to his words but he was still just blabbing about something so again I assumed it could not passed that much time. Again, there is no way one can call Cessation a "blip"
in my experience that is. But I am open to the idea that others have oposing experiences. Its an infinite universe afterall and I see no reason to limit all creation to my personal experience p.s. excuse my spell errors my computers spell check refuses to work.
"One thought I have with regards to your cessation is do you think the fact that you were playing with your son when it happened might be part of why it happened? That this activity left you in a more calm, open, playful state of mind? It seems like that could be a factor."
Most certainly not I mean a love my little lad so much and I care for him night and day but he can be over the top with his extrovert childish personality and more often than not Im rather tired of listening to his non-stop chit chat
Bottom line, as I see it; I was really deep into the EQ Nana territory at that time (around 3 weeks in it and it started to be very Boring) and it matters little if you are on cushion while in this Nana or off the cushion! It really is all inclusive and it only helps to "get lost" in some activity (mow the lawn, prune the roses, paint the fence, build a shed, chop wood, carry water, drag a wooden cart with your child in it)
Even if in this EQ Nana I kept noting aloud while doing my formal daily practice (which I think dropped to only one sit a day before that cessation off cushion). I know folks here say drop noting but in my case I find noting aloud just became part of the all inclusivness and did help to work on that Boredom through the sit with acceptance of it. Im sure Jhana folks have better fun in high EQ than folks following a purification practice I kept practicing noting aloud on the cushion all the way and let the Choiceless Open Awareness do its stuff off the cushion.
Most certainly not I mean a love my little lad so much and I care for him night and day but he can be over the top with his extrovert childish personality and more often than not Im rather tired of listening to his non-stop chit chat Bottom line, as I see it; I was really deep into the EQ Nana territory at that time (around 3 weeks in it and it started to be very Boring) and it matters little if you are on cushion while in this Nana or off the cushion! It really is all inclusive and it only helps to "get lost" in some activity (mow the lawn, prune the roses, paint the fence, build a shed, chop wood, carry water, drag a wooden cart with your child in it)
Even if in this EQ Nana I kept noting aloud while doing my formal daily practice (which I think dropped to only one sit a day before that cessation off cushion). I know folks here say drop noting but in my case I find noting aloud just became part of the all inclusivness and did help to work on that Boredom through the sit with acceptance of it. Im sure Jhana folks have better fun in high EQ than folks following a purification practice
I kept practicing noting aloud on the cushion all the way and let the Choiceless Open Awareness do its stuff off the cushion.
Mike Smirnoff:
Yeah, it's a great thing if Nibbana can be experienced in various ways!
So much of what the experience is seems to be based on the personality of the person -- as Culadasa says. My guess at this point is that those who talk about God consciousness, there is the possibility that they are experiencing Nibbana -- just that their thinking and processing has always been in terms of God, so when it happens, they say, they have experienced/found God.
So much of what the experience is seems to be based on the personality of the person -- as Culadasa says. My guess at this point is that those who talk about God consciousness, there is the possibility that they are experiencing Nibbana -- just that their thinking and processing has always been in terms of God, so when it happens, they say, they have experienced/found God.
Maybe. I really have only my own experience which does not support that "God Consciousness" experience. But could be. Dunno
I remember back in 2009 when I first experienced 5th Samatha Jhana and thought of that infinite Safe space being THAT God space holding my tiny sense of self in its vastness
Then in 2010 I've experienced Mind (thinking mind) Falling Away far into the background and only body and awareness being in the present. It was a Wow moment for me as it clearly showed that thinking mind was not I, me, mine. I thought "this must be the glimpse into Nirvana!"
several month after this wow experience I've hit the Dark Night I guess not jumping to conclusions too fast and letting it simmer under world conditions for a year and one day indeed is a good way to go about it. Keeping the practice going for reality checking too.