4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago.

4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
One way to describe 4th path attainment is that it happens when person gets full administrative access to own nervous system.

We evolved from animals who lived short lives and who had no need or knowledge required to administer their nervous system/brains. Having preprogrammed reactions was more important. As animals evolved to mammals brains was pretty much perfected hiding interfaces to any control signals from consciousness to not overload it with things it need not know about and rather need to decide which way to go to eat an apple and not get eaten instead.

Human beings are at the level where administering complex systems is just possible. But not only there is no magical instruction manual with all the keys to be discovered inside mind but there are access restrictions put in place to prevent tampering and protect from stupidity. There is no manual how to remove these restrictions or anything really. Even buddhadharma I read more as "behave and you will figure it out somehow kid... good luck ;)" rather than any manual.

In my case I was the receiver of administrative rights, my conscious sensual experience. Other than learning by trial and error how brain works it required quite a lot of "manual" work getting through "Warranty void if removed" stickers and then fixing broken circuits because certain removed things had their functions. This fixing things of course gives the experience needed to administer anything. It is with experience and knowledge when the decision was made that I am ready to administer myself. There was no hard locks preventing access anymore so it was more like just changing brain owner to my own consciousness from consciousness being just an actor inside virtual environment created for it.

Opinions?
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Helen Pohl, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 86 Join Date: 8/10/20 Recent Posts
I tend to think more in terms of MMORPGs but I can see what you're getting at. =)

Just glad I'm not getting killed in the first dungeon anymore emoticon
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Helen Pohl:
I tend to think more in terms of MMORPGs but I can see what you're getting at. =)

Just glad I'm not getting killed in the first dungeon anymore emoticon
In the past it was mostly exploring this new strange world for me as well and doing quests.
Over time, and actually since 3rd path it stopped feeling like this. ...which was kinda disappointing really because even at 2nd path it felt like I am still in this big adventure discovering stuff. There was quite high level of control and I felt weight of it because I tried to fix myself and that created more issues which I tried to fix, etc. but ultimately I could rely on auto-pilot. After 3rd path auto-pilot felt like it knew less than I already did and more and more I felt like be the one who should make decisions of how things should run.

By "I" I mean consciousness, general waking mind.
After 4th path this disappointment was gone because of sheer amount of stuff that mind is made ouf of. Also causing myself to experience bliss is so easy it doesn't require me to do anything.
Normally there is a kinda carrot on a stick before you and stick on your back created by subconscious mind to motivate you. This got obsolete, I can eat carrot and do not need stick because even when it comes to spending energy using it seems to use it more than just fix the issues directly. In the end I do what I do and carrot/stick never worked anyway and were there because this got somehow programmed to me, probably by generations of human beings passing their programs to the next generation instead of knowledge of how to manage own brain propely.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 3192 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Perhaps give a few specific examples of what you mean and provide clear details, particularly regarding issues of timing, and thus ground the argument in something more concrete than abstract and theoretical, as well as describe any systems or aspects of experience that might not be in full admin control.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
Perhaps give a few specific examples of what you mean and provide clear details, particularly regarding issues of timing, and thus ground the argument in something more concrete than abstract and theoretical, as well as describe any systems or aspects of experience that might not be in full admin control.
Most basic example and pretty much the only thing I use this skill for nowadays would be the dealing any form of pain which is experienced part part of nervous system. It is always localized and its processing runs with some rate or frequency like a set of rivers from one place to another through the place which is generating pain. By isolating which places exactly experience pain it is possible to route these signals through different places in nervous system (typically very close). This requires first opening new channels by feeling them and then in the right moment forcing signals to not go to affected painful place but to go through the new pathways. This causes pain to immediately stop and activity is felt in these new pathways. There is always pleasure experienced in both the new pathways and a kind of pleasure of rest in the previously hurting place. It even works for physical discomfort and pain. Some stronger physical pains are however hard to eliminate completely. Though it generates then so much pleasure that when I remember any instance of such strong pain like kidney stones all I really remember how pleasant the experience was and how despite the pleasure I was having cold shivers and was affraid something terribly wrong is happening which at the time I did not know what it was.

Normally I use it when I notice I am getting irritated by something or bored. Like on n-th hour of meetings or transit I would realize I am bored and then just localize the place in mind which generates this experience of boredom and route energy which it feeds on to somewhere directly pleasant. This would immediately cause me to experience pleasure and when situation ends even a kind of missing it... though this missing is one mind action away of being replaced by pleasure. When dealt with that way the same set of situations will not require it for months, even years os the next boring meeting I will experience pleasure righ away and the next time it ends also. Though the strenght of this persistence depends on strength of control signals.

Other example is skill of suppressing experience completely, what I think is cessation of experience. This is more on-demand action if not set up in such a way to be persistent by setting part of mind to send such suppression signals to some place continuously like I did for example with my whole body. There is threshold after which I experience touch and its strength is normal except it fades away quickly if not changing. I can also directly apply this kind of signal to experience to make it fade away even quicker. I do not experience my body like I did in the past because mostly there is nothing changing and unchanging touch perceptions fade away. It is not even nothingness but what I could only describe as Nibbana.

Another example would be execution of more parts of the brain to process something at once instead one after the other. When I do this for whole perception then each moment more than one set of typically used pathways are used at once and this causes colors pop up much more and flat images not only become three dimensional but I feel literally in the place which I see. I even experience everything other sense so smell of places I see, sun on my skin or coldness if watching cold place, wind, scent of flowers, etc. Video of cooking food smells like it was cooked really in front of me. In hearing this causes immediately sound become much more bassy, like X-Tra BASS was enabled and immersion. This however makes me tired rather quick. Few hours of such fun and I feel completely drained. The how tired I am depends on how much parts of brain I use and how much there are for each function. It is pretty much like A&P which can be done at will and doing it for too long will have similar side effects. Negative effects of abusing brain in this way are however just a matter of using tired parts of brain or not and with suppressing experiences (cessation) it is easy to get rest. I normally almost do not experience any cycles of insight. Any DN creeping in after abusing my brain I just tweak until it feels all pleasant even if energy is lower for a while.

Sensual perception (or rather anything really) generally run in moments. Normally to not mix up signals in brain they are being run separarte for everything from other signals. Even parts of visual image get their details in moments, separate brain firings. This can be noticed when trying to look at something before processing of it has completed of shifting exact moment visual consciousness pulls information from brain about image. For example doing it early will reveal that unfinished image with mostly outlines being processed and no fine texture details. Other example would be that when something moves eg. eyes and there is new unprocessed previously object there is distinct wait period in actually seeing it (visual consciousness waits for visual cortex to finish processing the image) but if visual consciousness is rushed to pull information earlier then partially processed image will be seen eg. with lower resolution texture and errors on outlines. To make things more interesting I activate other sense modality consciousnesses along sight ant this causes them to pull other senses to experience what I see on other senses. It also causes images I see to change, especially colors. I spent quite a lot of time investigating how this works. It is all about rhythm inside the brain.

Also because it is all about rhythm it makes it possible to accomplish things like no perception of duality via different means, either by shutting down parts of brain which generate them or simply changing moment consciousness probe brain to get perception of it. If this moment is shifted by a lot is is possible to not experience something which is actually running because its perception expired or not even created. I tested this way of accomplishing non-duality also. I am also quite meticulous when it comes to my brain and check regularly what activity I can feel what perceptions it generates. Not so much to get real non-duality because I do not really care for if it but I like for any thing which runs to spread its activity and use for generating more detailed sensual perception. I do not use processes of duality and agent because I do not find any use for them and they are energy intensive and there seems to be limited energy budget for brain and parts of brain get tired quickly. I'd rather run something which improves visual or musical perception than sense of self. Rhythm also provides another method of dealing with pain by shifting moments when things are received from hurting place but generally this is worse method because messing with rhythms in brain can cause rather unpleasant side effects and then it takes quite a lof of time to get rhythms in working order. I do from time to time test what are possibilities there eg. changing phases of periods and some effects are interesting though I do not consider myself an expert in this topic and most actions I do even if they modify rhythms are higher level (meaning more abstracted in to mind states eg. jhanas or this cessation signal which relies heavilty on phase).

Thing I usually do not touch are to do with survival and which I deem unsafe to play with like heart beat and circulatory system. I tread here much more carefully than elsewhere. With my desire to break seals I did probably remove few of them here also but I never truly tested it by eg. trying to send full blown cessation signals. I can however send them because when I do it a little I do get rather interesting response from it and not experience that mind barriers caused me to feel. Other than that I do not feel any issues trying peeking and poking anywhere else because most systems when messed with won't kill me immediately.

Most of these things I picked up from other ways of doing these things by observing how these meditation methods made me feel, then forcing myself to feel this way and then isolated the effect in question and tested it eparately. Some times deliberately refusing comfortable conditions to get source of issues to solve. Literally ascetic practices though not as hardcore as Buddha did because I am more insterrested in precission than power. Normal life today does not have any serious issues with suffering and I would even say it is at times too comfortable which is bad for practice.

I am not sure if that sounds to you abstract or something concrete. Is this something you recognize?

My assumption all this rhytm stuff should be pretty aligned with contemporary dharma even if not often discussed. Routing signals in brain I find no mention of so I am not sure if the perception which allows this is too often developed. I also did not find informations about these barriers I mentioned. These have very specific aversive and repulsive feel to them and to get any clarity that allow signals routing they had to be removed. I used visualization of what I call vajra taste like it was a sand paper to remove them which caused me to feel this part of brain on which I worked to feel first sore and then I felt real physical pain in there. So my method of getting clarity was rather drastic. Not even sure if that should ever be recommended to anyone. I assume however that since it requires ability to visualize vajra objects it is not something someone below required level to handle it would even be able to do. Unfortunately describing what vajra taste would be impossible. It is the same taste as Vajra Samadhi have though. And with this abstract concept I will end this post.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
Daniel M. Ingram:
Perhaps give a few specific examples of what you mean and provide clear details, particularly regarding issues of timing, and thus ground the argument in something more concrete than abstract and theoretical, as well as describe any systems or aspects of experience that might not be in full admin control.
Most basic example and pretty much the only thing I use this skill for nowadays would be the dealing any form of pain which is experienced part part of nervous system. It is always localized and its processing runs with some rate or frequency like a set of rivers from one place to another through the place which is generating pain. By isolating which places exactly experience pain it is possible to route these signals through different places in nervous system (typically very close). This requires first opening new channels by feeling them and then in the right moment forcing signals to not go to affected painful place but to go through the new pathways. This causes pain to immediately stop and activity is felt in these new pathways. There is always pleasure experienced in both the new pathways and a kind of pleasure of rest in the previously hurting place. It even works for physical discomfort and pain. Some stronger physical pains are however hard to eliminate completely. Though it generates then so much pleasure that when I remember any instance of such strong pain like kidney stones all I really remember how pleasant the experience was and how despite the pleasure I was having cold shivers and was affraid something terribly wrong is happening which at the time I did not know what it was.

Normally I use it when I notice I am getting irritated by something or bored. Like on n-th hour of meetings or transit I would realize I am bored and then just localize the place in mind which generates this experience of boredom and route energy which it feeds on to somewhere directly pleasant. This would immediately cause me to experience pleasure and when situation ends even a kind of missing it... though this missing is one mind action away of being replaced by pleasure. When dealt with that way the same set of situations will not require it for months, even years os the next boring meeting I will experience pleasure righ away and the next time it ends also. Though the strenght of this persistence depends on strength of control signals.

Other example is skill of suppressing experience completely, what I think is cessation of experience. This is more on-demand action if not set up in such a way to be persistent by setting part of mind to send such suppression signals to some place continuously like I did for example with my whole body. There is threshold after which I experience touch and its strength is normal except it fades away quickly if not changing. I can also directly apply this kind of signal to experience to make it fade away even quicker. I do not experience my body like I did in the past because mostly there is nothing changing and unchanging touch perceptions fade away. It is not even nothingness but what I could only describe as Nibbana.

Another example would be execution of more parts of the brain to process something at once instead one after the other. When I do this for whole perception then each moment more than one set of typically used pathways are used at once and this causes colors pop up much more and flat images not only become three dimensional but I feel literally in the place which I see. I even experience everything other sense so smell of places I see, sun on my skin or coldness if watching cold place, wind, scent of flowers, etc. Video of cooking food smells like it was cooked really in front of me. In hearing this causes immediately sound become much more bassy, like X-Tra BASS was enabled and immersion. This however makes me tired rather quick. Few hours of such fun and I feel completely drained. The how tired I am depends on how much parts of brain I use and how much there are for each function. It is pretty much like A&P which can be done at will and doing it for too long will have similar side effects. Negative effects of abusing brain in this way are however just a matter of using tired parts of brain or not and with suppressing experiences (cessation) it is easy to get rest. I normally almost do not experience any cycles of insight. Any DN creeping in after abusing my brain I just tweak until it feels all pleasant even if energy is lower for a while.

Sensual perception (or rather anything really) generally run in moments. Normally to not mix up signals in brain they are being run separarte for everything from other signals. Even parts of visual image get their details in moments, separate brain firings. This can be noticed when trying to look at something before processing of it has completed of shifting exact moment visual consciousness pulls information from brain about image. For example doing it early will reveal that unfinished image with mostly outlines being processed and no fine texture details. Other example would be that when something moves eg. eyes and there is new unprocessed previously object there is distinct wait period in actually seeing it (visual consciousness waits for visual cortex to finish processing the image) but if visual consciousness is rushed to pull information earlier then partially processed image will be seen eg. with lower resolution texture and errors on outlines. To make things more interesting I activate other sense modality consciousnesses along sight ant this causes them to pull other senses to experience what I see on other senses. It also causes images I see to change, especially colors. I spent quite a lot of time investigating how this works. It is all about rhythm inside the brain.

Also because it is all about rhythm it makes it possible to accomplish things like no perception of duality via different means, either by shutting down parts of brain which generate them or simply changing moment consciousness probe brain to get perception of it. If this moment is shifted by a lot is is possible to not experience something which is actually running because its perception expired or not even created. I tested this way of accomplishing non-duality also. I am also quite meticulous when it comes to my brain and check regularly what activity I can feel what perceptions it generates. Not so much to get real non-duality because I do not really care for if it but I like for any thing which runs to spread its activity and use for generating more detailed sensual perception. I do not use processes of duality and agent because I do not find any use for them and they are energy intensive and there seems to be limited energy budget for brain and parts of brain get tired quickly. I'd rather run something which improves visual or musical perception than sense of self. Rhythm also provides another method of dealing with pain by shifting moments when things are received from hurting place but generally this is worse method because messing with rhythms in brain can cause rather unpleasant side effects and then it takes quite a lof of time to get rhythms in working order. I do from time to time test what are possibilities there eg. changing phases of periods and some effects are interesting though I do not consider myself an expert in this topic and most actions I do even if they modify rhythms are higher level (meaning more abstracted in to mind states eg. jhanas or this cessation signal which relies heavilty on phase).

Thing I usually do not touch are to do with survival and which I deem unsafe to play with like heart beat and circulatory system. I tread here much more carefully than elsewhere. With my desire to break seals I did probably remove few of them here also but I never truly tested it by eg. trying to send full blown cessation signals. I can however send them because when I do it a little I do get rather interesting response from it and not experience that mind barriers caused me to feel. Other than that I do not feel any issues trying peeking and poking anywhere else because most systems when messed with won't kill me immediately.

Most of these things I picked up from other ways of doing these things by observing how these meditation methods made me feel, then forcing myself to feel this way and then isolated the effect in question and tested it eparately. Some times deliberately refusing comfortable conditions to get source of issues to solve. Literally ascetic practices though not as hardcore as Buddha did because I am more insterrested in precission than power. Normal life today does not have any serious issues with suffering and I would even say it is at times too comfortable which is bad for practice.

I am not sure if that sounds to you abstract or something concrete. Is this something you recognize?

My assumption all this rhytm stuff should be pretty aligned with contemporary dharma even if not often discussed. Routing signals in brain I find no mention of so I am not sure if the perception which allows this is too often developed. I also did not find informations about these barriers I mentioned. These have very specific aversive and repulsive feel to them and to get any clarity that allow signals routing they had to be removed. I used visualization of what I call vajra taste like it was a sand paper to remove them which caused me to feel this part of brain on which I worked to feel first sore and then I felt real physical pain in there. So my method of getting clarity was rather drastic. Not even sure if that should ever be recommended to anyone. I assume however that since it requires ability to visualize vajra objects it is not something someone below required level to handle it would even be able to do. Unfortunately describing what vajra taste would be impossible. It is the same taste as Vajra Samadhi have though. And with this abstract concept I will end this post.


nonduality and perception do not intersect
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Lewis James, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 155 Join Date: 5/13/15 Recent Posts
How does this fit with common reports of "agencyless", "non-doing", "no free will" reports we hear from advanced practicioners?

Some say, "there's no control, and there never was". But this seems to say, "you will get full control". Isn't relinquishment of control the result of insight? Or is this just one of those paradoxes that make subtle sense in the end?
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Lewis James:
How does this fit with common reports of "agencyless", "non-doing", "no free will" reports we hear from advanced practitioners?

Some say, "there's no control, and there never was". But this seems to say, "you will get full control". Isn't relinquishment of control the result of insight? Or is this just one of those paradoxes that make subtle sense in the end?
I say I have full control but there is no one who has control. It is just collection of trained monkeys with ability to run commands with administrative right. What makes this arrangement workable is presenting to consciousness within perception pointers to where signals which make up this perception were processed at. For complex perceptions it makes perception trees. With these pointers it doesn't matter what part of brain pick up signal from consciousness because any will be able to refer to source and which source at the time of being asked about it will already be in half-activation state because I do not run parts of my brain continuously but: get them ready -> run activation through them -> put in state of half-activation -after some time-> sleep. It is organizational thing and that is what administrator does, administer, check if all systems are running according to agreed upon algorithm. At a time there are multiple half-activated parts of brain which can respond to requests from multiple actively running parts of the brain. Each part of brain which actively processed signal will go to half-activation and will be used by other parts of the brain to answer questions. Parameters of this system can be of course changed and depending on situation it might be more optimal to run with different parameters.

Once execution programs and all parameters are programmed (this is pretty much done with formless jhanas) there is no need to this for some time. I tested changing network configuration to arbitrary configuration which I came up and which was completely different and brain was just running it for days until I changed it back (with "sudo" =P ). This was funny experience because I copied what I thought certain person was using and it even changed my behavior. It put enough stress on my brain for it to start doing hemisphere switching, phenomenon which I do not experience with my preferred arrangement but which I do remember having in the past.

It is not about agency but about knowledge and ability to modify how brain process stuff. If you add pointers at every step of the signal way what agency can you have when everything will tell you how it was processed? Perceptions are just composite images and this include sense of self. If I activate sense of self which I can easily do it is just another process running which obey the same rules.

Consciousness is a kind of broadcast system within brain. How it works can be changed and it can even be split, multiple copies of it executed at once and it can be changed how these connects to various of parts of nervous system. Of course some configurations make more sense than others, especially since resource usage have to be always considered. Running system near its full capacity can lead to situation where no non-tired resources are available => dukkha. There is always more resources but it is not like every part of brain can replace any other part of brain and it all need to be kept in such a way to allow for some fancy post-processing of senses, experiencing synesthesia and the like.

Ideas of "agencyless", "non-doing" and "no free will" to me really seem like agency, doing and will with fancy names. The proper way out of the system is to understand this system, its rules and become this system yourself.
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terry, modified 10 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
One way to describe 4th path attainment is that it happens when person gets full administrative access to own nervous system.

We evolved from animals who lived short lives and who had no need or knowledge required to administer their nervous system/brains. Having preprogrammed reactions was more important. As animals evolved to mammals brains was pretty much perfected hiding interfaces to any control signals from consciousness to not overload it with things it need not know about and rather need to decide which way to go to eat an apple and not get eaten instead.

Human beings are at the level where administering complex systems is just possible. But not only there is no magical instruction manual with all the keys to be discovered inside mind but there are access restrictions put in place to prevent tampering and protect from stupidity. There is no manual how to remove these restrictions or anything really. Even buddhadharma I read more as "behave and you will figure it out somehow kid... good luck ;)" rather than any manual.

In my case I was the receiver of administrative rights, my conscious sensual experience. Other than learning by trial and error how brain works it required quite a lot of "manual" work getting through "Warranty void if removed" stickers and then fixing broken circuits because certain removed things had their functions. This fixing things of course gives the experience needed to administer anything. It is with experience and knowledge when the decision was made that I am ready to administer myself. There was no hard locks preventing access anymore so it was more like just changing brain owner to my own consciousness from consciousness being just an actor inside virtual environment created for it.

Opinions?

one way to describe attainment is to call it "non-attainment," as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

you posit two entities, an administrator and a creator, and see the former as superior rather than derivative...your tail wags your dog...

call it an opinion, if you like...




tao te ching, trans witter bynner:


75.

Death is no threat to people
Who are not afraid to die;
But even if these offenders feared death all day,
Who should be rash enough
To act as executioner?
Nature is executioner.
When man usurps the place,
A carpenter's apprentice takes the place of the master:
And 'an apprentice hacking with the master's axe
May slice his own hand.'
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry:

one way to describe attainment is to call it "non-attainment," as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

you posit two entities, an administrator and a creator, and see the former as superior rather than derivative...your tail wags your dog...

call it an opinion, if you like...
I am describing system which can manage itself.
You can have community which has king and all sorts of entities to enforce law but you can have community without any laws and people just do what they come to understand on common forum to be the best approach to go forward. I am describing the latter.

It is not like part of brain forces other part of brain to change its behaviour.
Maybe I should made myself more clear about it. Though even this is possible for some simpler resources not so directly connected to consciousness. The idea behind being an enlightened administrator is however to spread consciousness as wide as possible and let parts of system pariticipate with its own management. If you do not do it that way you can do it in other ways. There is many ways things can be accomplished, even not experiencing dukkha.

edit://
Extending consciousness to more brain parts result in synesthesia.
It is this one effect which suspiciously missing from descriptions of most people who claim enlightenment and why I do not really take their advice too seriously...
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
terry:

one way to describe attainment is to call it "non-attainment," as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

you posit two entities, an administrator and a creator, and see the former as superior rather than derivative...your tail wags your dog...

call it an opinion, if you like...
I am describing system which can manage itself.
You can have community which has king and all sorts of entities to enforce law but you can have community without any laws and people just do what they come to understand on common forum to be the best approach to go forward. I am describing the latter.

It is not like part of brain forces other part of brain to change its behaviour.
Maybe I should made myself more clear about it. Though even this is possible for some simpler resources not so directly connected to consciousness. The idea behind being an enlightened administrator is however to spread consciousness as wide as possible and let parts of system pariticipate with its own management. If you do not do it that way you can do it in other ways. There is many ways things can be accomplished, even not experiencing dukkha.

edit://
Extending consciousness to more brain parts result in synesthesia.
It is this one effect which suspiciously missing from descriptions of most people who claim enlightenment and why I do not really take their advice too seriously...

   Letting "the system" manage itself I can agree with. I would call that, "non-doihg" rather than emphasize doing or administering or extending or whatever.

   I'm more into anesthesia than synesthesia. We have altogether too much consciousness already. Too much input, too many branching trees. Return to the source.

   Let it administer itself, as it does anyway regardless of what you think, and everything will be fine. Try and administer it and you will fail.

terry




tao te ching, trans witter bynner


49

A sound man's heart is not shut within itself
But is open to other people's hearts:
I find good people good,
And I find bad people good
If l am good enough;
I trust men of their word,
And I trust liars
If I am true enough;
I feel the heart-beats of others
Above my own
If I am enough of a father,
Enough of a son.




67


Everyone says that my way of life is the way of a simpleton.
Being largely the way of a simpleton is what makes it worth while.
If it were not the way of a simpleton
It would long ago have been worthless,
These possessions of a simpleton being the three I
choose
And cherish:
To care,
To be fair,
To be humble.
When a man cares he is unafraid
When he is fair he leaves enough for others,
When he is humble he can grow;
Whereas if, like men of today, he be bold without caring,
Self-indulgent without sharing,
Self-important without shame,
He is dead.
The invincible shield
Of caring
Is a weapon from the sky
Against being dead.



71

A man who knows how little he knows is well,
A man who knows how much he knows is sick.
If, when you see the symptoms, you can tell,
Your cure is quick.
A sound man knows that sickness makes him sick
And before he catches it his cure is quick.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry:
Letting "the system" manage itself I can agree with. I would call that, "non-doihg" rather than emphasize doing or administering or extending or whatever.

Administering can do itself with non-doing. This is how I mostly administer.
What boss would I be if I had to everything all the time =P

I'm more into anesthesia than synesthesia. We have altogether too much consciousness already. Too much input, too many branching trees. Return to the source.

To run synesthesia without running in to overloading my brain I have to pretty much shut down everything else otherwise it is definitely too much and if used incorrectly will cause nasty side effects.
It is good practice though and feels very pleasant. I would rate it at 10-200 schmeckels depending on strength. From things not requiring patricipation of women in the experience only Vajra Samadhi is more pleasant at 500 schmeckels. I mention it since you mention source.

Let it administer itself, as it does anyway regardless of what you think, and everything will be fine. Try and administer it and you will fail.

Of course I will fail.
That is the whole purpose of doing it manually.
Then I have to fix stuff... so much fun emoticon

edit://
what to do. In our context, the 8fold path, or the great way.

   Rather like giving a baby the strength of an 800lb gorilla. "I want a cookie!" Power corrupts without wisdom.

You need to know what to do to get this level of control. It is not about power but precission really.
Of course I cannot do things I do not know how to do and I bet there are many things I do not know which are possiblle.

Meditation with methods can be used to get some effects and then these effects can be studied to get insight about how they work. That is pretty much the drill.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
terry:
Letting "the system" manage itself I can agree with. I would call that, "non-doihg" rather than emphasize doing or administering or extending or whatever.

Administering can do itself with non-doing. This is how I mostly administer.
What boss would I be if I had to everything all the time =P

I'm more into anesthesia than synesthesia. We have altogether too much consciousness already. Too much input, too many branching trees. Return to the source.

To run synesthesia without running in to overloading my brain I have to pretty much shut down everything else otherwise it is definitely too much and if used incorrectly will cause nasty side effects.
It is good practice though and feels very pleasant. I would rate it at 10-200 schmeckels depending on strength. From things not requiring patricipation of women in the experience only Vajra Samadhi is more pleasant at 500 schmeckels. I mention it since you mention source.

Let it administer itself, as it does anyway regardless of what you think, and everything will be fine. Try and administer it and you will fail.

Of course I will fail.
That is the whole purpose of doing it manually.
Then I have to fix stuff... so much fun emoticon

edit://
what to do. In our context, the 8fold path, or the great way.

   Rather like giving a baby the strength of an 800lb gorilla. "I want a cookie!" Power corrupts without wisdom.

You need to know what to do to get this level of control. It is not about power but precission really.
Of course I cannot do things I do not know how to do and I bet there are many things I do not know which are possiblle.

Meditation with methods can be used to get some effects and then these effects can be studied to get insight about how they work. That is pretty much the drill.


   nothing I do is worth a schmeckel...
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Jim Smith, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:

... as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

Terry,

Do you have a reference for this? Is it from the Pali canon? 

I tried to look it up and found that Huang Po made the statement that Buddha said it, but there was no reference as to Huang Po's source.


Thanks
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Jim Smith:

I tried to look it up and found that Huang Po made the statement that Buddha said it, but there was no reference as to Huang Po's source.
Looks like this is a Zen thing https://www.dailyzen.com/journal/zen-teachings-of-huang-po
Different traditions and people can have completely different view about what Buddha teachings were about. Zen to me seems to draw more from China's own philosophy than Buddhism.

If you go a little to the left to India and read what Yogis think about Buddhism it is completely different story. To them Gautama Buddha was first and foremost very advanced and highly realized Yogi and his attainment was very technical rather than "it happens on its own" with all the things like chakras (really energy thus signals, exactly what I am referring to) being fully developed.

In the middle eg. in Burma you have traditions like Theravada which are still somewhat technically oriented but started to forget that in India practice was heavily chakra/technically oriented but not yet fully in to "do nothing" style of practice.

Personally I like Zen a lot. It gives completely different feel to Buddhism and is something good to study (things like koans, philosophy) even when doing more technical energy practices. Maybe even especially when doing them because doing nothing is very beneficial to sorting all the issues and agitation caused by working with energies and brings peace. It is however less viable for discussion because how much can you talk about about doing nothing and that being a great mind state to be in?
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Jim Smith:

I tried to look it up and found that Huang Po made the statement that Buddha said it, but there was no reference as to Huang Po's source.
Looks like this is a Zen thing https://www.dailyzen.com/journal/zen-teachings-of-huang-po
Different traditions and people can have completely different view about what Buddha teachings were about. Zen to me seems to draw more from China's own philosophy than Buddhism.

If you go a little to the left to India and read what Yogis think about Buddhism it is completely different story. To them Gautama Buddha was first and foremost very advanced and highly realized Yogi and his attainment was very technical rather than "it happens on its own" with all the things like chakras (really energy thus signals, exactly what I am referring to) being fully developed.

In the middle eg. in Burma you have traditions like Theravada which are still somewhat technically oriented but started to forget that in India practice was heavily chakra/technically oriented but not yet fully in to "do nothing" style of practice.

Personally I like Zen a lot. It gives completely different feel to Buddhism and is something good to study (things like koans, philosophy) even when doing more technical energy practices. Maybe even especially when doing them because doing nothing is very beneficial to sorting all the issues and agitation caused by working with energies and brings peace. It is however less viable for discussion because how much can you talk about about doing nothing and that being a great mind state to be in?

zen literature is the most voluminous of all spiritual traditions, in point of fact...

surprising for a tradition founded by bodhidharma on the principle of "no dependence on words and letters"...endless comment on "no comment"..."the buddha spoke for forty-nine years and in all that time not a single word was said"...

as was anciently said of lao tzu, "he told us that 'those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak' and he said it in a book of ten thousand characters"...


t




from "the way of chuang tzu" trans merton:



WHOLENESS

"How does the true man of Tao
Walk through walls without obstruction,
Stand in fire without being burnt?"
Not because of cunning
Or daring;
Not because he has learned,
But because he has unlearned.
All that is limited by form, semblance, sound, color,
Is called object.
Among them all, man alone
Is more than an object.
Though, like objects, he has form and semblance,
He is not limited to form. He is more.
He can attain to formlessness.
When he is beyond form and semblance,
Beyond "this" and "that,"
Where is the comparison
With another object?
Where is the conflict?
What can stand in his way?
He will rest in his eternal place
Which is no-place.
He will be hidden
In his own unfathomable secret.
His nature sinks to its root
In the One.
His vitality, his power
Hide in secret Tao.
When he is all one,
There is no flaw in him
By which a wedge can enter.
So a drunken man, falling
Out of a wagon,
Is bruised but not destroyed.
His bones are like the bones of other men,
But his fall is different.
His spirit is entire. He is not aware
Of getting into a wagon
Or falling out of one.
Life and death are nothing to him.
He knows no alarm, he meets obstacles
Without thought, without care,
Takes them without knowing they are there.
If there is such security in wine,
How much more in Tao.
The wise man is hidden in Tao.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:

zen literature is the most voluminous of all spiritual traditions, in point of fact...

surprising for a tradition founded by bodhidharma on the principle of "no dependence on words and letters"...endless comment on "no comment"..."the buddha spoke for forty-nine years and in all that time not a single word was said"...

as was anciently said of lao tzu, "he told us that 'those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak' and he said it in a book of ten thousand characters"...
Non dependence on words and letter for me sounds like he depended on compiled binaries emoticon

Probably that is why Zen is really one of these traditions where the stuff is right there up for grabs. That is also why I like Zen texts.

edit://
My approach is to use words and texts to descreibe how to build a compiler emoticon
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
terry:

zen literature is the most voluminous of all spiritual traditions, in point of fact...

surprising for a tradition founded by bodhidharma on the principle of "no dependence on words and letters"...endless comment on "no comment"..."the buddha spoke for forty-nine years and in all that time not a single word was said"...

as was anciently said of lao tzu, "he told us that 'those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak' and he said it in a book of ten thousand characters"...
Non dependence on words and letter for me sounds like he depended on compiled binaries emoticon

Probably that is why Zen is really one of these traditions where the stuff is right there up for grabs. That is also why I like Zen texts.

edit://
My approach is to use words and texts to descreibe how to build a compiler emoticon

my approach is to deconstruct compilations...


if you meet anyone with any semblance of the buddha at all, KILL HIM... ditto arhats, patriarchs and your parents, especially yo mama...(and blame rinzai)...
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:

my approach is to deconstruct compilations...


if you meet anyone with any semblance of the buddha at all, KILL HIM... ditto arhats, patriarchs and your parents, especially yo mama...(and blame rinzai)...
deconstructing anything manually gets boring after five minutes tops and it is better to spend few years writing decompilator software which creates nice ansi c style code

I do not provide binaries or source code to anyone except selected "friends", for public I only publish comments
though most of is is all written in brain-python so it need python interpreter installed and I write only docstrings to describe what function does what and not how it was implemented because code itself is self explanatory and the implementation I change on the fly going in cycles from having code analyzer tool satisfied to having flying spagetti monster satisfied and back

rest is in assembler, spirituality related stuff, these are short subroutines which I often forget even exist because I normally use python bindings. when I want to change implementation I always need to write them from scratch because it is impossible to understand my program logic from code as it would require me to analyze what all registers and values on stack were supposed to be at any given moment

I also tried already made libraries to use in my program. these were written in something that feelt like java and they had its typical issues: slow loading times, poor performance, used too much of my resources for the task at hand and at the same time could not allocate all of available resources and buddha christ they all had a lot of null pointer exceptions

and this post was FF% serious
this is exactly how reality of brain developer looks like... and that is why Buddhas tell you to kill them XD

ps. Zen is in this equation taking a walk in a park. literally
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
terry:

my approach is to deconstruct compilations...


if you meet anyone with any semblance of the buddha at all, KILL HIM... ditto arhats, patriarchs and your parents, especially yo mama...(and blame rinzai)...
deconstructing anything manually gets boring after five minutes tops and it is better to spend few years writing decompilator software which creates nice ansi c style code

I do not provide binaries or source code to anyone except selected "friends", for public I only publish comments
though most of is is all written in brain-python so it need python interpreter installed and I write only docstrings to describe what function does what and not how it was implemented because code itself is self explanatory and the implementation I change on the fly going in cycles from having code analyzer tool satisfied to having flying spagetti monster satisfied and back

rest is in assembler, spirituality related stuff, these are short subroutines which I often forget even exist because I normally use python bindings. when I want to change implementation I always need to write them from scratch because it is impossible to understand my program logic from code as it would require me to analyze what all registers and values on stack were supposed to be at any given moment

I also tried already made libraries to use in my program. these were written in something that feelt like java and they had its typical issues: slow loading times, poor performance, used too much of my resources for the task at hand and at the same time could not allocate all of available resources and buddha christ they all had a lot of null pointer exceptions

and this post was FF% serious
this is exactly how reality of brain developer looks like... and that is why Buddhas tell you to kill them XD

ps. Zen is in this equation taking a walk in a park. literally


   I find material deconstructs itself...anything constructed - anything conditioned - arises and passes away..."the finest clothes turn to rags" (yi jing)...

   robots run programs...

   e e cummings: "a world of made is not a world of born"...william blake: "made are tools and born are hands/ ev'ry farmer understands"...

terry




tao te ching, trans feng


Fifty-one

All things arise from Tao.
They are nourished by Virtue.
They are formed from matter.
They are shaped by environment.
Thus the ten thousand things all respect Tao and honor Virtue.
Respect of Tao and honor of Virtue are not demanded,
But they are in the nature of things.

Therefore all things arise from Tao.
By Virtue they are nourished,
Developed, cared for,
Sheltered, comforted,
Grown, and protected.
Creating without claiming,
Doing without taking credit,
Guiding without interfering,
This is Primal Virtue.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
terry:

my approach is to deconstruct compilations...


if you meet anyone with any semblance of the buddha at all, KILL HIM... ditto arhats, patriarchs and your parents, especially yo mama...(and blame rinzai)...
deconstructing anything manually gets boring after five minutes tops and it is better to spend few years writing decompilator software which creates nice ansi c style code

I do not provide binaries or source code to anyone except selected "friends", for public I only publish comments
though most of is is all written in brain-python so it need python interpreter installed and I write only docstrings to describe what function does what and not how it was implemented because code itself is self explanatory and the implementation I change on the fly going in cycles from having code analyzer tool satisfied to having flying spagetti monster satisfied and back

rest is in assembler, spirituality related stuff, these are short subroutines which I often forget even exist because I normally use python bindings. when I want to change implementation I always need to write them from scratch because it is impossible to understand my program logic from code as it would require me to analyze what all registers and values on stack were supposed to be at any given moment

I also tried already made libraries to use in my program. these were written in something that feelt like java and they had its typical issues: slow loading times, poor performance, used too much of my resources for the task at hand and at the same time could not allocate all of available resources and buddha christ they all had a lot of null pointer exceptions

and this post was FF% serious
this is exactly how reality of brain developer looks like... and that is why Buddhas tell you to kill them XD

ps. Zen is in this equation taking a walk in a park. literally

guys, guys, all this talk about violence against buddhas and yo mama! The advice to kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road has no scriptural authority, but is anecdotal/patriarchal lore in the Chan/Zen lineage attributed to Bodhidharma, the “Western barbarian” who is said to have brought the Dharma lineage from India to China, and based it on

A special transmission outside the scriptures,
Not depending on words and letters;
Directly pointing to the mind
Seeing into one’s true nature and attaining Buddhahood.

We therefore are clearly in error here, taking a special-transmission outside-the-scriptures fortune cookie poem not depending on words or letters so literally as to endanger someone's mama, much less buddhas, arhats, patriarchs, and male parents. Pretty soon we would be killing everyone we meet on the road, just in case they might be wise.

I did kill someone i thought was a Buddha on the road once, during my Zen phase. It turned out he was just an anagami, and he has not been seen around here since. Meanwhile, I am wanted for murder and there is a warrant out for my arrest in the State of Delusion. I fought the Law, and the Law won.

I will also, for this shitty karma, be serving time in hell until all sentient beings are saved, at which time the boddhisattva I killed on the road will come save my sorry ass.
 
I'm also concerned in practical, immediate terms that with all this buddha-killing talk parading as instructions, ni nurta may mis-program his operating system and kill himself. This would be a tragedy for nervous sytems everywhere, who are counting on him to redeem the pink useless mass of brain matter by destroying the abyss between it and consciousness, or something like that.

On the other hand, even if we get cut in half, may we all attain enough Buddhahood to have at least one of the halves get killed on the road some day ourselves.

love, tim


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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Jim Smith:
terry:

... as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

Terry,

Do you have a reference for this? Is it from the Pali canon? 

I tried to look it up and found that Huang Po made the statement that Buddha said it, but there was no reference as to Huang Po's source.


Thanks

in the form I gave it, huang po, but the sentiment is well known from the diamond sutra, retweeted endlessly throughout zen literature... 

did the buddha actually say any such thing historically? probably not, it is a typical mahayana invention designed to crack the hard shell of attachment to literature...




from VIII


“What do you think, Subhuti? Did the Tathagata realize any such
dharma as ‘unexcelled, perfect enlightenment’? And does the
Tathagata teach any such dharma?”
The venerable Subhuti thereupon answered, “Bhagavan, as I
understand the meaning of what the Buddha says, the Tathagata
did not realize any such dharma as ‘unexcelled, perfect
enlightenment.’ Nor does the Tathagata teach such a dharma.
And why? Because this dharma realized and taught by the
Tathagata is incomprehensible and inexpressible and neither a
dharma nor no dharma. And why? Because sages arise from
what is uncreated.”




from XVII


“What do you think, Subhuti? When the Tathagata was with
Dipankara Tathagata, did he realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment?”
To this the venerable Subhuti answered, “Bhagavan, as I
understand the meaning of what the Tathagata has taught, when
the Tathagata was with Dipankara Tathagata, the Arhan, the
Fully-Enlightened One, he did not realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.”
And to this the Buddha replied, “So it is, Subhuti. So it is."
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
Jim Smith:
terry:

... as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

Terry,

Do you have a reference for this? Is it from the Pali canon? 

I tried to look it up and found that Huang Po made the statement that Buddha said it, but there was no reference as to Huang Po's source.


Thanks

in the form I gave it, huang po, but the sentiment is well known from the diamond sutra, retweeted endlessly throughout zen literature... 

did the buddha actually say any such thing historically? probably not, it is a typical mahayana invention designed to crack the hard shell of attachment to literature...




from VIII


“What do you think, Subhuti? Did the Tathagata realize any such
dharma as ‘unexcelled, perfect enlightenment’? And does the
Tathagata teach any such dharma?”
The venerable Subhuti thereupon answered, “Bhagavan, as I
understand the meaning of what the Buddha says, the Tathagata
did not realize any such dharma as ‘unexcelled, perfect
enlightenment.’ Nor does the Tathagata teach such a dharma.
And why? Because this dharma realized and taught by the
Tathagata is incomprehensible and inexpressible and neither a
dharma nor no dharma. And why? Because sages arise from
what is uncreated.”




from XVII


“What do you think, Subhuti? When the Tathagata was with
Dipankara Tathagata, did he realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment?”
To this the venerable Subhuti answered, “Bhagavan, as I
understand the meaning of what the Tathagata has taught, when
the Tathagata was with Dipankara Tathagata, the Arhan, the
Fully-Enlightened One, he did not realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.”
And to this the Buddha replied, “So it is, Subhuti. So it is."


the idea of "attaining nothing" is both a positive and negative goal, leading one beyond existence and non-existence...
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
[quote=
]

did the buddha actually say any such thing historically? probably not, it is a typical mahayana invention designed to crack the hard shell of attachment to literature...






pali want a cracker?
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Chris Marti, modified 10 Months ago.

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I disagree with this construction.

There are no "admin rights" to be found. There is just THIS. The change isn't about getting superpowers over your mind. The change is realizing you have no control over your mind, accepting everything just as it is, and being content with what and who you happen to be, and basically sane.
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Ni Nurta, modified 10 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
I disagree with this construction.

There are no "admin rights" to be found. There is just THIS. The change isn't about getting superpowers over your mind. The change is realizing you have no control over your mind, accepting everything just as it is, and being content with what and who you happen to be, and basically sane.
My assumption was that people when they practice meditation kinda grow management program and then when it is fully grown they relinquish all administrative tasks to it. It is one way to do it. I did not want to do it like that as I chose different path.

I learned how to feel my brain and manage myself with what I can feel myself.
I do not think what I did is against Buddha's teaching. Though it definitely is more yoga dhan what dharma came to be.

edit://
I am not claiming any super-powers but having knowledge of how to manage my own brain internal working.
This is why I was always so baffled why people use word "insight" but describe experiences and not skills or what they saw about their brain inner working.
To me insight is literally insight in to how my brain works so I could use this knowledge to do stuff.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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My assumption was that people when they practice meditation kinda grow management program and then when it is fully grown they relinquish all administrative tasks to it. It is one way to do it. I did not want to do it like that as I chose different path.

In my experience, this is almost exactly backwards. The process of taking this path has been one of subtraction, not addition. The assumptions and habits that determine behavior have been de-constructed. They have not been replaced but exposed.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
My assumption was that people when they practice meditation kinda grow management program and then when it is fully grown they relinquish all administrative tasks to it. It is one way to do it. I did not want to do it like that as I chose different path.

In my experience, this is almost exactly backwards. The process of taking this path has been one of subtraction, not addition. The assumptions and habits that determine behavior have been de-constructed. They have not been replaced but exposed.
It is possible to set barriers made with aversion on sense of self (or any part of nervous system) and this will cause it impossible for these parts of the brain to be used. It will also make them seem repulsive and unbearable. Those are the same barriers which are all over the nervous system which removal is needed for "admin rights".
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Where does this hardcore physicalism come from ?

What has made you so convinced that there is a one-one causal relation, a bijection, if you will, between material structures (neurons) and conscious experience ???

I am in touch with neurophysiologists who have written books about the subject and award winning philosophers of quantum physics. They usually consider that there has never been a good argument made to prove that conscious experience emerges from ontologically more primal entities called "neurons", "atoms" or "molecules". 

This is not an attack emoticon You've never answered me, perhaps I was not asking in the right way, but I'm truly curious, where your conviction comes from.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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It is possible to set barriers made with aversion on sense of self (or any part of nervous system) and this will cause it impossible for these parts of the brain to be used. It will also make them seem repulsive and unbearable. Those are the same barriers which are all over the nervous system which removal is needed for "admin rights".


Like Olivier, I've always wondered about the underpinnings of your neurological-like descriptions and assumptions about your practice, Ni Nurta. To be honest, they make no sense to me at all.

Please elaborate.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
It is possible to set barriers made with aversion on sense of self (or any part of nervous system) and this will cause it impossible for these parts of the brain to be used. It will also make them seem repulsive and unbearable. Those are the same barriers which are all over the nervous system which removal is needed for "admin rights".


Like Olivier, I've always wondered about the underpinnings of your neurological-like descriptions and assumptions about your practice, Ni Nurta. To be honest, they make no sense to me at all.

Please elaborate.
I said it before: different path
I am a Buddha

The right question to ask is: does Arhat still need sense door and abilities it provides.
I would say yes, you say no, we disagree and that is that.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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The right question to ask is: does Arhat still need sense door and abilities it provides.
I would say yes, you say no, we disagree and that is that.

The mystery deepens...

Buddha, woulda, coulda, shoulda
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
The right question to ask is: does Arhat still need sense door and abilities it provides.
I would say yes, you say no, we disagree and that is that.

The mystery deepens...

Buddha, woulda, coulda, shoulda

I was following instructions ("investigate all sensations") and one of things this investigation inevitably led me to was my body's nervous system. It is just one one of the things that needed to be investigated but this one seems most relevant from the point of view of the task at hand and the most interresting to talk about. It also literally runs almost everything and has all the interresting interfaces that allow direct access elsewhere.

Between consciousness and nervous system there are barriers which need to be removed to continue meaningful investigations. It is removal of all these barriers that what I consider as 4th path.

But yeah, there doesn't seem to be any point in being a silent buddha XD
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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What is it like to feel neurons ?
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Olivier:
What is it like to feel neurons ?


it depends...afferent or efferent?

t
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:


I was following instructions ("investigate all sensations") and one of things this investigation inevitably led me to was my body's nervous system.
...
Between consciousness and nervous system there are barriers which need to be removed to continue meaningful investigations. It is removal of all these barriers that what I consider as 4th path.


It sounds like you are using nervous system anatomy as a metaphor for subtle expereniences?

For example, "barriers to remove" could also be described as somatic knots/holdings in the body and psychological knots/confusions in the mind? And the kind of blurry in between experiences of having turbulent emotional centers in the body (traditionally called chakras)? Is that fair to say?




 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Shargrol, are you handing Ni Nurta a lifeline?

emoticon
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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(Well, truth be told... I'm hoping to eventually convey that symbolic use of neurology metaphors is more confusing that describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... that's my master plan. I mean, we've both had those wierd experiences of being microscopically aware of our body, having parts of our body almost seeming sentient, and having the chakras regions of the body being activated and all that psycho-emotional wierd stuff that happens. It's really confusing at the time... so I think I can relate to Ni Nurta's experience right now, but who knows where this will go? Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, okay?) 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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So the consensus is to never describe anything technical so that everyone always have to go through everything themselves and use the same general concepts where each can match to mutlple things. And if any poor soul find these concepts they could always be able to refer to and bother the source and not the person who invented them.

If that is the consensus then there must be good reasons for that.

And now excuse me because I am trying to come up and compile experience program worth 499 schmeckles out of Vajra Samadhi worth 500 schmeckles by "improving" it emoticon

This topic can be closed.
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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http://www.biolinguagem.com/ling_cog_cult/varela_1997_whence_perceptual_meaning.pdf

This might help establishing common ground if you want to get technical...

Notice, p. 243, that the framework you seem to be using (correlation between percepts and single neurons) is here considered as the most extreme form of cognitivism, a general research/conceptual framework which is described in the previous page and criticized in the subsequent ones.
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Pepe, modified 9 Months ago.

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The discussion is above my paygrade, but as I'm working in compiling Daniel's post, I share his post (January 2014) I found today, that may well address the topic.

Daniel Ingram:

There are various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, yet the divisionlessness of this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. (link)

(Regarding No-Self Mode and Self Mode,) At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects. 

Call it True Self. Call it no-self. Regardless, it is happening, as it always has. And there are various modes of attention, as there always have been. And various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems. And there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either. But thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before. And in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. Though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur.

And this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing. 

So look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception.

Spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception.

But with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish. 

... The common way of looking at this is that there are zillions of sensations but we can only comprehend a limited number of them. 

Except that perspective actually misses a really essential point that is strangely obvious once you think about it and yet also quite slippery, given how we are so used to not seeing things this say, or so we think.

That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.

We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves), but we actually believe that this secondary impression, this echo, this stand-in, is actually the awareness, the comprehension, when it is actually just a secondary effect from the first cause, that being the first sensation that the second sensation follows.

Said another way: 

All of the sensations know themselves as and when and where they are, always have, always will, couldn't be any other way. Awareness and phenomena just always are not in a 1:1 ratio, they are actually just the same thing.

When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known.

So, just let the field in all of its richness speak for itself, including the small, central, limited copying process, and, seen thusly, the knot of perception that doesn't realize that the things already happened and already knew themselves will eventually and perhaps in stages shift to the whole thing knowing itself directly, as it actually always has but just somehow failed to know that at the level that makes the difference.

I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear sensate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight.

Dukkha is a power hog only because it fails to realize that the work was already done, that phenomena already knew themselves naturally, and so it is when that overcompensation stops that the whole thing fully knows that it shines on its own without having to do anything.

Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ironically, this seems to originally have been an answer to Ni Nurta !
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Pepe, modified 9 Months ago.

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Yep! No ill-will on my behalf, though
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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A brilliant quote.

Interestingly (for the intellectually inclined), this is precisely the difference between "intentional consciousness" (subject-here-knows-object-there, objective knowledge) and "impressional consciousness" (impressions in the phenomenological jargon are not the mental copies but the primary self-knowing sensations themselves - non-objective knowledge) which phenomenologists such as Husserl in his book Lessons for a phenomenology of intimate time consciousness, were indeed aware of (;)), and there has been a debate ever since as to which one was more primary.

Michel Henry has correctly figured out that this impressional awareness was the true nature of reality (he calls it : the essence of manifestation) and gives it the very straightforward name of : Life. He has also made a convincing case that this was precisely what the christian revelation is about. 

However, no phenomenologists (in the sense of the school of thought...) to my knowledge had given such clear-cut and straightforward explanations as Ingram in posts such as this, of what Henry calls : the truth of Life.

Too cool.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Pepe:
The discussion is above my paygrade, but as I'm working in compiling Daniel's post, I share his post (January 2014) I found today, that may well address the topic.
Thanks for posting this Daniel's quote
It is a good one
Olivier:
Ironically, this seems to originally have been an answer to Ni Nurta !
I rememeber refering back to it heavily at the time trying to understand it correctly.

Recently all I get from this forum is chance to do morality training. Exactly to train myself at not racting to ill will.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Pepe:
The discussion is above my paygrade, but as I'm working in compiling Daniel's post, I share his post (January 2014) I found today, that may well address the topic.
Thanks for posting this Daniel's quote
It is a good one
Olivier:
Ironically, this seems to originally have been an answer to Ni Nurta !
I rememeber refering back to it heavily at the time trying to understand it correctly.

Recently all I get from this forum is chance to do morality training. Exactly to train myself at not racting to ill will.

Ni, morality, yes, the first and last practice. 

keep your sense of humor, amigo.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Tim Farrington:
Ni, morality, yes, the first and last practice. 

keep your sense of humor, amigo.
I always assumed that the first and last practice is pooping to some some kind of container instead of in our pants... emoticon
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Don't take it personally ni.

From my perspective, i don't understand why you refuse to engage in any meaningful, open discussion about the language/premises you're operating from. 

What you seem to perceive as ill will emnating from us is probably just ways through which we are trying to get you to engage.

Peace.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Sorry, Olivier, I do not think I am the kind of person who can communicate well with others.
I take "review"s way too seriously and no one shares my sense of humor in this regard.

I will remain silent.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Sorry, Olivier, I do not think I am the kind of person who can communicate well with others.
I take "review"s way too seriously and no one shares my sense of humor in this regard.

I will remain silent.

it's always wise to remain silent...

only fools, crazies and lovers rush in where the wise fear to tread...

and us kids, who all know how to dance and sing, and never fear to demonstrate....


have you ever considered writing poetry? 


t




"I would not feel so all alone/
everybody must get stoned"

~bob dylan
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Sorry, Olivier, I do not think I am the kind of person who can communicate well with others.
I take "review"s way too seriously and no one shares my sense of humor in this regard.

I will remain silent.
My friend,

It doesn't have to be perfect to still be communication - but even bad communication can't happen if the parties withdraw !

The way i see it, either we're full of shit, or you are, or both - unlike our respective pants which are remarkably unsoiled - and perhaps learning can happen on ours, or yours, or both sides.

How often do you get to talk to people who have serious backgrounds in hard sciences, pragmatic meditation, philosophy, some or many realizations, and all that, who can question your models/understandings and either debunk what should be debunked or consolidate what could use a bit of trimming ? And do all that without pooping their pants ?

Anyways. All the best, and no hard feelings i hope. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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The premise is simple, either you have ability to stop pain or not.

Terms used by me are not understandable because those are my terms. People have these. At least anyone who actually manage to do anything will inevitably end up inventing few strange sounding terms. This should not matter.

What matters is that in case there is pain that the enlightened person should understand its nature and be able to stop it.
Rest is philosophy, dogma and running in circles.

You could be sentient robot and if you were capable of experiencing pain I would use exactly the same criteria to rate if you are enlightened:
1. do you know your basic mind architecture
2. can modify it with your will
3. can you disable your pain
4. you consider yourself knowledgeable enough to allow yourself uncoditional full access in case there is any issue

That is my model and that is how I rated my paths.
And do I know everything about my brain or reality I live in?
Hell no! The knowledge I do have is an asset in body shangha and allows me to have better access because I do not disallow myself from it.
And as for this shangha I need to do review of my strategies because signals I used cause the kind of reactions that should not happen.
People with fancy buttons can always remove me if they consider my teaching methods as unskillful.

ps. "paths" should be done in order.
Though I guess anyone who experienced "Dark Night of the Soul" knows how giving too much access to your their nervous system can end so it won't be that easy. Body is not stupid...
ps2. What hard feelings?
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
The premise is simple, either you have ability to stop pain or not.

Terms used by me are not understandable because those are my terms. People have these. At least anyone who actually manage to do anything will inevitably end up inventing few strange sounding terms. This should not matter.

What matters is that in case there is pain that the enlightened person should understand its nature and be able to stop it.
Rest is philosophy, dogma and running in circles.

You could be sentient robot and if you were capable of experiencing pain I would use exactly the same criteria to rate if you are enlightened:
1. do you know your basic mind architecture
2. can modify it with your will
3. can you disable your pain
4. you consider yourself knowledgeable enough to allow yourself uncoditional full access in case there is any issue

That is my model and that is how I rated my paths.
And do I know everything about my brain or reality I live in?
Hell no! The knowledge I do have is an asset in body shangha and allows me to have better access because I do not disallow myself from it.
And as for this shangha I need to do review of my strategies because signals I used cause the kind of reactions that should not happen.
People with fancy buttons can always remove me if they consider my teaching methods as unskillful.

ps. "paths" should be done in order.
Though I guess anyone who experienced "Dark Night of the Soul" knows how giving too much access to your their nervous system can end so it won't be that easy. Body is not stupid...
ps2. What hard feelings?

   Ah, that makes your view more explicit: your model of enlightenment assumes that we are equivalent to sentient robots. 

   As thus I am made of tin, tell me great wizard (but please make it brief) how may I come by a heart?

   My other question: what if on the way to conquering pain I decided it was unconquerable - because those I love have it and cannot give it up - and decided to embrace it instead? And then found pain, like demons, just another sensation wanting to be loved and understood?



   I've been wanting to write about the difference between suffering, pain and the unsatisfactoriness signified by the idea of dukkha

   Pain is a physical sensation related to the body only. It is relatively insiginificant. You can being laying on the ground with your arms and legs torn off, life hanging by a thread, and your lover can still break your heart and make your pain feel like nothing.

   In the west we have inherited, in a significantly degraded form, the thinking of the ancient greeks, which at the time was in contact with and reflected the enlightened thought of asia, afrtica and india as well. Our idea of suffering carries some freight and doesn't translate well into buddhist ideas.

   Dukkha refers to karmic debt, the compensatory dissatisfaction that underlies every satisfaction. Whereas suffering actually refers directly to passion as the opposite of action. To suffer means to endure, to put up with, as in "suffer the little children to come unto to me." To act means to enforce your will, to be passive is to be done to or acted upon. Admonished, ordered, instructed, and so forth, all the language games of dominance.

   Suffering in aristotle is pathein, the same root as pathos, and root of english words like "pathetic" and "sympathy," and also "passion" and "passive." Our actions reflect our desires through willful striving. Our passions are unacted, stifled, suffered; willed non-striving, self control.

   It is assumed by the ancient greeks that nobody likes being told what to do, and thus "suffering" acquired the meaning of unpleasantness. In fact it is the ideal feminine virtue of sweetness, willingness, kindness, gentleness, compassion, acceptance, nurturing, forebearance, love and submission. Action implies the masculine virtues of leading, guiding, teaching, inspiring, fecundating. Greek homophilia saw the masculine virtues as superior and desirable, and we have been suffering from that orthodoxy ever since. (If it weren't for sexist homophilia incubated as mysogyny clinton would be president and 100,000 americans - and their fragile democracy - would still be alive.)

terry





abstract of an article by herman paret called "reasonable pathos":



The subject producing discourse, culture, and society is a being of passions. His will to impart the truth, his intention to communicate, and his beliefs and convictions are motivated by the passion for knowledge, and the drive to live in a community, to create beauty, and to transform nature into an inhabitable environment. The subjective pathos is responsible for an opacity that makes intersubjective relations worth experiencing and discourse worth interpreting. Passion — theoretical, practical, aesthetic — “swells the sails of the vessel, without which we could not go on” Voltaire wrote. The Romantics will confer the aura of creation and genius upon the man of passion. And yet pathos, in its relation of tension to logos, has always come out second best — our intellectual tradition quasi-automatically identifies pathos with the pathetic and the pathological. It is an age-old story: passion for the Greeks is frenzy, morbidity, agitation; according to Zenon, it is ‘contrary to nature’ and is immediately situated in a medical framework. Pathein has the connotations of pain and misfortune, sorrow and sickness. Pathos predicates death, madness, obscurity, chaos, disharmony, the underworld, variability, particularity, and the indistinct, while the field of logos is that of reason, life, clarity, the cosmos, harmony, the celestial, universality, regularity, distinctness. All the classics of the history of philosophy include a reflection on the theme of passion, but this is always marginal to the main thrust of these works. Aristotle’s Rhetoric, Descartes’ ThePassions of the Soul, and Kant’s Anthropology from a Pragmatic Point of View are examples of this marginality. Other authors situate their theory of the passions within an all-encompassing synthesis, like Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica or David Hume in his Treatiseon Human Nature. One could say that the marginalization of passions as a subject of theoretical reflection in philosophy and the social sciences, and the expulsion of the passions into the domains of artistic creativity and interpersonal intimacy, are two complementary gestures. This precariousness of thinking about passions has been observed quite often, and it is only a short time ago that the passions have been reintegrated into philosophical anthropology1, structural semiotics2, and argumentation theory3. ‘Affective psychology’, a strand of thought that was very much alive during the 1920’s (but since then forgotten) has only recently been rediscovered, and plenty of valuable lessons can be drawn from it.
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
The premise is simple, either you have ability to stop pain or not.


This isn't necessarily directed to you NN, I'm just riffing off of this statement.

It's important to understand that there are two major approaches to dealing with pain/suffering:

1. Use the power of the mind and intention to go to the place of pain/discomfort and to mentally block it or will it away.
2. Go to the place of pain/discomfort and remove any psychological resistances to the pain.

Both approaches work and are skillful at certain moments. But it's important to understand that #1 is fundamentally repression and the power of that pain/discomfort will come back in sneaky ways. It's masking the symptoms. #2 doesn't always make the pain go away immediately, but it does makes the situation workable. Pain = discomfort x resistance. If resistance is decreased, total pain is much less. In some cases, it was the resistance itself that was the problem and the pain becomes negligble. But usually what is left is the appropriate minimum symptomatic discomfort. From this point, the cause of the discomfort can be investigated skillfully and the cause can be fixed. Then the pain goes away. 

I've had many interesting discussions where I thought I was talking about the same approach with someone, but it turned out one of us was talking about #1 and the other about #2.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Practice #1 leads to the denial and suppression of one's humanity. There have been quite a few people through these boards who have professed to be able to maintain practice #1 and claim to have eliminated the pain and suffering (emotions) of being human. For some reason, these folks seem to disappear from these parts never to return, or eventually see their error clearly and recant.

emoticon
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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agree
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
Practice #1 leads to the denial and suppression of one's humanity. There have been quite a few people through these boards who have professed to be able to maintain practice #1 and claim to have eliminated the pain and suffering (emotions) of being human. For some reason, these folks seem to disappear from these parts never to return, or eventually see their error clearly and recant.

emoticon

This thread makes me wonder another thing... Maybe the AF people were also harvesting brain center openings? That would explain how it could do something different from the path, like Daniel says. I would guess that they harvested different kinds of brain center openings than what Ni Nurta has been doing, though. I have more hope that Ni Nurta will actually use this for good and avoid turning into a robot, even though working with the siddhis is still risky business. 
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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maybe i missed it, what is harvesting brain center openings?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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It is how the tradition of Kundalini Vidya describes the process of developing siddhis, something that can be done without following the spiritual path. The descriptions I have found basically describe the same thing as Ni Nurta. It is about opening up the dalas in Sahash... something Lotus. The thousandpetal lotus. They talk about it on an energetical level but also say that in the physical body this maps on to brain function. Ni Nurta has experimented with this on his/her own, without following any teachings, and found out how to crack the codes to the siddhis with regard to designing new patterns for brain processing. It's a remarkable accomplishment and also probably very high-risk. We have been discussing this to some extent in my practice log, because of a shared interest in energetic aspects. That's how I knew about the experience of nectar flooding through the brain, which comes with the territory, and also some somewhat more hands-on explanations on how it is done (although I believe words are too crude). I find it more interesting to talk about what Ni Nurta is doing than what he/she is not doing. It's actually brilliant. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Hello Linda,

Ninurta is a male name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninurta
I ma a "he" =)

Kind Regards,
Paweł
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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shargrol:
maybe i missed it, what is harvesting brain center openings?

I suspect it is rather like raising dental floss in montana... a lonely job, that...only MoI...
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
shargrol:
maybe i missed it, what is harvesting brain center openings?

I suspect it is rather like raising dental floss in montana... a lonely job, that...only MoI...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8G982fE90
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

This thread makes me wonder another thing... Maybe the AF people were also harvesting brain center openings? That would explain how it could do something different from the path, like Daniel says. I would guess that they harvested different kinds of brain center openings than what Ni Nurta has been doing, though. I have more hope that Ni Nurta will actually use this for good and avoid turning into a robot, even though working with the siddhis is still risky business. 
My take is that non-duality as it is described is special case of fixing more general issue with routing. More precisely you have signals going from two or more places at once and they go through one part of the brain which then quickly switches between these two experiences. It could be called "congestion". This switching creates dukkha. If that happens right before consciousness then it requires additional activity to "comprehend" them which creates additional activity and this activity also creates dukkha.

AF highly "inspired" by others work: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3644560
It deals with exactly the same issue but from slightly different angle thus it leads to slightly different outcomes. It is however nothing new.

Daniel's episode with AF only shows that you get results in these areas at which you actually put effort investigating and working on. I would even say that it gives good reason to be more diligent in developing better tools that allow to investigate your own body and mind for all the cases which are harder to notice. Some times it is unimaginable that there is any issue there and when it is fixed the only comment could be "How I was even able to live like that for so many years?"

My color synesthesia is result of resolving exactly this kind of routing issue but in the brain area which is rarely ever investigated. My assumption always was that anyone could get the same effects when working with eyesight. It does "open channels" in brain as much as any such practice does. Vipassana does also, just different channels are opened and the routing is fixed at different places. I even had completely screwed routing related to what Daniel refer to in MCTB and yet I had my eyesight feel like it was somehow literally enlightened. This proved me that these things are separate and have to be trained separately. (on a side note: I recently discovered that scotopic vision is separate from photopic vision. I still have some signal congestion/duality in scotopic vision even when my photopic vision is fully enlightened and non-dual XD)

From what I remember Daniel fixed something about his time perception when he practiced AF. I also investigated time perception after 4th path and managed to fix something about it. What exactly? The same damn routing issue.

Also fixing this kind of routing issue is more or less also what method #2 that shargrol mentioned is all about. The way to make brain merge experiences before they hit consciousness is actually exactly the same. The congestions just need to be located and resistance in the area in question cleared. If that is done from within perspectives which show nervous system more directly (I guess it is harder) or from inside conscious experience (this is from where I did most of the work!) does not really matter. It is dropping resistance to pain which is the control signal to wake up and open pathways so that they can participate in processing. If you are not ready to experience some pain then you won't be wanting to do anything, hence signal congestions happen. It is also why if I want to use this amrita thing I need to befully accept pain that comes with it. Not even "if it happens" but assume that "it will happen", otherwise my nervous system will be too nervous to fully open itself to this experience.

BTW. If I ever turn to dark side it will be to later betray my dark lord and kill him emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:

My take is that non-duality as it is described is special case of fixing more general issue with routing. More precisely you have signals going from two or more places at once and they go through one part of the brain which then quickly switches between these two experiences. It could be called "congestion". This switching creates dukkha. If that happens right before consciousness then it requires additional activity to "comprehend" them which creates additional activity and this activity also creates dukkha.

This is where our takes differ. I don’t believe that non-duality is an effect from routing. I think it’s the deeper reality. I can’t prove it, though. It’s just that the glimpses I have had - sometimes short ones, sometimes longer ones - make so much more sense than anything else once I have had them. And that’s totally what any psychotic person might say too. I can’t blame anyone for not buying it.


AF highly "inspired" by others work: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3644560
It deals with exactly the same issue but from slightly different angle thus it leads to slightly different outcomes. It is however nothing new.

Daniel's episode with AF only shows that you get results in these areas at which you actually put effort investigating and working on. I would even say that it gives good reason to be more diligent in developing better tools that allow to investigate your own body and mind for all the cases which are harder to notice. Some times it is unimaginable that there is any issue there and when it is fixed the only comment could be "How I was even able to live like that for so many years?"

I don't know enough about any of the methods applied to tell whether they are similar, but if AF was some kind of brain center harvesting too, I guess that explains some questions that I have been having, about what the f-ck it was. Apparently it had very tangible effects on people's minds and behavior. From what I have heard, many outcomes turned out both to be creepy for everyone around the person and to not last. Yet it seems that some practicioners, such as Daniel, also had some good outcomes from it (as you mentioned later in your post), at least for a while. I don't know if any of the good effects lasted. From what I have heard, I wouldn't take my chances. Personally I really don't see the point of getting rid of emotions, which seemed to be the ideal there (this was before my time, so for me it's hearsay). Even if there were advantages to it, there would be no joy from them, obviously. I prefer to get to know the awakened quality of the whole rainbow of emotions. I think Daniel very selectively did only parts of the AF approach, not the whole package? 


My color synesthesia is result of resolving exactly this kind of routing issue but in the brain area which is rarely ever investigated. My assumption always was that anyone could get the same effects when working with eyesight. It does "open channels" in brain as much as any such practice does. Vipassana does also, just different channels are opened and the routing is fixed at different places. I even had completely screwed routing related to what Daniel refer to in MCTB and yet I had my eyesight feel like it was somehow literally enlightened. This proved me that these things are separate and have to be trained separately. (on a side note: I recently discovered that scotopic vision is separate from photopic vision. I still have some signal congestion/duality in scotopic vision even when my photopic vision is fully enlightened and non-dual XD)
A major difference is that when rewiring occurs through following the progress of insight, duality isn't maintained. Reality is no longer experienced with the sense of control that you still seem to describe. That difference is also implied in the Kundalini Vidya framework, if I understand it correctly, even though they use other kinds of maps. It seems to me like "Kundalini reaching the Makara point" is the A&P event and "Kundalini reaching the Bindu" is cessation/fruition, and never leaving Samadhi may be the same thing as flipping that switch to non-duality as in MCTB2 4th path. Translated to Buddhism, this means that it is possible to harvest brain center openings without ever had any single cessation. That would explain why nonduality is still perceived as a state that can be separated from other states, whereas if you follow the PoI to its end, that is not the experience.

BTW. If I ever turn to dark side it will be to later betray my dark lord and kill him emoticon
I believe that would qualify as dark, yeah. We are supposed to help liberate all sentient beings, not kill them. emoticon You can't kill karma. 

By the way, nice to meet you, Pawel, now that we have been formally introduced.
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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 I think it’s the deeper reality.

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
 I think it’s the deeper reality.

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'

Good point. It didn't feel right to put it like that but I wasn't able to phrase it better at the moment. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
 I think it’s the deeper reality.

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'

Good point. It didn't feel right to put it like that but I wasn't able to phrase it better at the moment. 
I think what I was trying to say is that underneath the commonly perceived and taken-for-granted duality is a deeper reality which is that both duality and non-duality are true. My point was that nonduality is not some special effect resulting from changes in the neurocognitive processing in individual brains. I believe that it goes deeper than that. But of course duality is true in people's experiences. Life as we know it presupposes it insofar as all perceptions and all happenings and the sense of time and space and so forth depend on separation, and life matters. 
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I use emotion-less state at work. No emotions, mono-tone mind state that is only pleasure. There I guess this is the best mind state to be in. Colleagues who fail to attain this mind state tend to suffer boredom and have emotional outbursts (any emotion is considered an outburst in these environments...) so I guess in this case use of this is justified.
Actual Actual Freedom I would say it is not. Rather typical issue: corpo is killing my soul and replacing it with KPIs emoticon

I would say that everyone should do some investigations of their emotionality. I do not buy in to AF and the idea of limited emotional range models is pretty stupid. The goal should never be to elliminate something completely but to improve yourself in the areas which are lacking. Especially if situations demand being in certain emotional states it makes sense to develop these emotions. This include emotion of having no emotions.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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I think it seems like a great idea to cultivate equanimity for situations that can't be changed. I agree that emotional reactivity, with behavior that is triggered by defense mechanisms rather than wisdom and compassion, has a lot of growing up to go through. In my book that is a far more nuanced approach than ideals about limited emotional range. 
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
 I think it’s the deeper reality.

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'

Good point. It didn't feel right to put it like that but I wasn't able to phrase it better at the moment. 
I think what I was trying to say is that underneath the commonly perceived and taken-for-granted duality is a deeper reality which is that both duality and non-duality are true. My point was that nonduality is not some special effect resulting from changes in the neurocognitive processing in individual brains. I believe that it goes deeper than that. But of course duality is true in people's experiences. Life as we know it presupposes it insofar as all perceptions and all happenings and the sense of time and space and so forth depend on separation, and life matters. 


   Ram dass used to tell a story about anthropologists studying a "primitive" culture. They inquired of the village elders, "what underlies the perceptible world?" The elders consulted among themselves, and their spokesman told the scientists, "the world is floating on the back of a giant turtle." The scientists then wanted to know, "what holds up the giant turtle?" Once again the elders consulted, and the answer came back, "another turtle." The scientists then wanted to know what held that turltle up, and the reply was immediate: "it's turtles all the way down."

t
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
 I think it’s the deeper reality.

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'


   Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

   "The name that can be named is not the true name." (lao tzu)

terry





38. Q,; Pray instruct me concerning the passage in the sutras denying the existence of a Sword of Thusness in the Royal Treasury.

A: The Royal Treasury is the nature of the Void.
Though all the vast world-systems of the universe are con-
tained therein, none of them have existence outside your
Mind. Another name for it is the Bodhisattva Treasury of
the Great Void. If you speak of it as existing or not existing,
or as neither the one nor the other, in every case it becomes
a mere ram's horn! It is a ram's horn in the sense that you 
have made it an object of your useless search.



39. Q,: But is there not a Sword of Truth within the Royal Treasury?

A: Another ram's horn!

Q : Yet if there is no Sword of Truth why is it written: ' The Prince seized the Sword of Truth from the Royal Treasury and set out upon his conquests'? Why do you tell us nothing of it beyond denying its objective existence?

A: The prince who took the sword connotes a true spiritual son of the Tathagata; but, if you say that he carried it off, you imply that he deprived the Treasury of something. What nonsense it is to speak of carrying off a piece of that Void Nature which is the Source of all things! It would appear that, if you have got hold of anything at all, il may be called a collection of rams' horns!
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
Chris Marti:
 I think it’s the deeper reality.

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'


   Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

   "The name that can be named is not the true name." (lao tzu)

terry





38. Q,; Pray instruct me concerning the passage in the sutras denying the existence of a Sword of Thusness in the Royal Treasury.

A: The Royal Treasury is the nature of the Void.
Though all the vast world-systems of the universe are con-
tained therein, none of them have existence outside your
Mind. Another name for it is the Bodhisattva Treasury of
the Great Void. If you speak of it as existing or not existing,
or as neither the one nor the other, in every case it becomes
a mere ram's horn! It is a ram's horn in the sense that you 
have made it an object of your useless search.



39. Q,: But is there not a Sword of Truth within the Royal Treasury?

A: Another ram's horn!

Q : Yet if there is no Sword of Truth why is it written: ' The Prince seized the Sword of Truth from the Royal Treasury and set out upon his conquests'? Why do you tell us nothing of it beyond denying its objective existence?

A: The prince who took the sword connotes a true spiritual son of the Tathagata; but, if you say that he carried it off, you imply that he deprived the Treasury of something. What nonsense it is to speak of carrying off a piece of that Void Nature which is the Source of all things! It would appear that, if you have got hold of anything at all, il may be called a collection of rams' horns!

quote is from "the zen teachings of huang po," trans blofeld...
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

Sort of like the two sides of a paper. You cannot take away or make a cut in one side without that also happening with the other side. You could however paint multiple rainbows on one side without taking away the pure whiteness of the other side. There are many flaws with that analogy but I think it points to something. 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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That's a good way to think of it. I've used "two sides of the same coin" many times, too.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

Sort of like the two sides of a paper. You cannot take away or make a cut in one side without that also happening with the other side. You could however paint multiple rainbows on one side without taking away the pure whiteness of the other side. There are many flaws with that analogy but I think it points to something. 


      Nonduality is 'Sort of like the two sides of a paper." ?????

   same mistake...

if nonduality was sort of like duality there would be no need to call it nonduality...

nonduality is definitely NOT like two sides of anything...

you really have to take a right turn from thinking in dualistic terms and realize that everything you perceive and the act of perception itself are altogether one pearl...

I can paint you a picture but it won't get you wet...

t
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

Sort of like the two sides of a paper. You cannot take away or make a cut in one side without that also happening with the other side. You could however paint multiple rainbows on one side without taking away the pure whiteness of the other side. There are many flaws with that analogy but I think it points to something. 


      Nonduality is 'Sort of like the two sides of a paper." ?????

   same mistake...

if nonduality was sort of like duality there would be no need to call it nonduality...

nonduality is definitely NOT like two sides of anything...

you really have to take a right turn from thinking in dualistic terms and realize that everything you perceive and the act of perception itself are altogether one pearl...

I can paint you a picture but it won't get you wet...

t

I didn't say that it was like duality. I'm saying that duality as people experience it is a very limited part of the whole thing, but it's not other than it. If you think it is, you are probably stuck, my friend. I was assuming that you do not think it is. That's why I said you were talking about the same thing. 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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if nonduality was sort of like duality there would be no need to call it nonduality...

nonduality is definitely NOT like two sides of anything...

terry, this is kind of like what they teach young Army cadets at West Point - "I don't know what I said until you tell me what you heard." I blame my communications and exposition skills. Still, you're getting something out of what's been said here that's not intended.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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I can see how one could get that out of what has been said. That's what I meant when I said that the analogy has many flaws. That's also why I originally used a different wording. However, I can also see how you - and many with you - could get something out of that that was not intended, which is why I rephrased it. I'd rather be mistaken for someone who doesn't get it at all than for someone who chooses the view of emptiness over the inherent aliveness of the emptiness and the whole Dharmatta that recognizes samsara as nibbana and nibbana as samsara. 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Assuming folks share a common vocabulary is not a good idea when discussing dharma. I'm guilty in this instance.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
Assuming folks share a common vocabulary is not a good idea when discussing dharma. I'm guilty in this instance.

nibbana, enlightenment, nonduality, we have a common vocabulary...

we just have different views...

like the hindoos and the elephant...

t
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
Chris Marti:
Assuming folks share a common vocabulary is not a good idea when discussing dharma. I'm guilty in this instance.

nibbana, enlightenment, nonduality, we have a common vocabulary...

we just have different views...

like the hindoos and the elephant...

t


I meant something along the line that we are all three of us speaking of the same elephant although we have different views of it, that we probably aren't talking about different creatures. I still haven't figured out, though, if Ni Nurta's creature is the same elephant or a shining dragon/unicorn/X or both, or maybe a different elephant. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

I meant something along the line that we are all three of us speaking of the same elephant although we have different views of it, that we probably aren't talking about different creatures. I still haven't figured out, though, if Ni Nurta's creature is the same elephant or a shining dragon/unicorn/X or both, or maybe a different elephant. 
If I am so concerned with what patterns should be used for signaling and routing and "who the [bleep!] even manage all this?" then I am probably some type of a network.

Since everyone else recognize themselves as solid state or non-existent it is no wonder the ideas do not apply.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Assuming folks share a common vocabulary is not a good idea when discussing dharma. I'm guilty in this instance.

nibbana, enlightenment, nonduality, we have a common vocabulary...

we just have different views...

like the hindoos and the elephant...

t


I meant something along the line that we are all three of us speaking of the same elephant although we have different views of it, that we probably aren't talking about different creatures. I still haven't figured out, though, if Ni Nurta's creature is the same elephant or a shining dragon/unicorn/X or both, or maybe a different elephant. 

   If we all agree we are speaking of the same elephant, are we really speaking of the same elephant? 

   Analogies can distort as readily as illuminate. One interpretation would be that we all know what we are talking about, but simply find it inexpressible in dualistic language. The story actually means that none of the views was remotely accurate, and none of the viewers could make sense to the others on the basis of shared perceptions. Even though the object of their study was minfestly real and indeed standing patiently in front of them enduring their blind explorations.

   What I realized in the discussion was that even if your view is that no views are accurate you can still assume that there is something on view none of us can quite see, when actually all this is empty and there is no view even possible of something that cannot be isolated and has no separate existence.

   It is precisely in a complete lack of imagination, in a transcendent Silence, that we merge with the ground of being and emerge transformed but not knowing. Then in discussion, because naming designates objects, we reify this knowing as an "elephant." A big "thing," the dharma, the knowing of which confers happiness and status, the familiar old fame and gain. Nothing a true person of the way would want to have anything to do with.

   Our three views are all wide of the mark, and the more we think we are right, the more wrong we are. 50 bonus points for knowing the limits of knowledge, or lose your turn for placing the indefinable.


terry




from "the gates of eden" by bob dylan:


The kingdoms of experience
In the precious wind they rot
While paupers change possessions
Each one wishing for what the other has got
And the princess and the prince
Discuss what's real and what is not
It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden

The foreign sun, it squints upon
A bed that is never mine
As friends and other strangers
From their fates try to resign
Leaving men wholly, totally free
To do anything they wish to do but die
And there are no trials inside the Gates of Eden

At dawn my lover comes to me
And tells me of her dreams
With no attempts to shovel the glimpse
Into the ditch of what each one means
At times I think there are no words
But these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden


   
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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That's a good point and a good reminder that is very helpful for me right now. Thanks!

I would say, though, that in the story, they were also all right, to the extent anything can be. They were all describing their phenomenology, what they were able to see. That's as good as it gets, right here and right now. It would be unreasonable to expect from a blind monk touching the tail to describe the trunk or the torso of the elephant, and dishonest for him to do so. 
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
That's a good point and a good reminder that is very helpful for me right now. Thanks!

I would say, though, that in the story, they were also all right, to the extent anything can be. They were all describing their phenomenology, what they were able to see. That's as good as it gets, right here and right now. It would be unreasonable to expect from a blind monk touching the tail to describe the trunk or the torso of the elephant, and dishonest for him to do so. 

   Each hindoo thought he was right and the others wrong. Each stated, the elephant is like so. They were all wrong in thinking that a partial view is "good" when they really had no idea of the true nature of the animal. The elephant was not like a fan or a trunk. The blind monks should have their eyes examined. 

   
t







from "the zen teaching of rinzai" trans schloegel:


(the master said)

What is Dharma? Dharma is the Law of the Heart. The Law of the Heart is without form; pervading everywhere, it is perceptible and active right before your eyes. But, if there is lack of faith, then one chases names and phrases and, in a welter of words, arbitrarily speculates on the Buddha-Dharma which is as far away as is heaven from earth.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
if nonduality was sort of like duality there would be no need to call it nonduality...

nonduality is definitely NOT like two sides of anything...

terry, this is kind of like what they teach young Army cadets at West Point - "I don't know what I said until you tell me what you heard." I blame my communications and exposition skills. Still, you're getting something out of what's been said here that's not intended.

    Obviously I can't speak to your intentions.

   I assume you mean well.

   We are responsible for what we say, not what others hear. Those who have ears, hear.


t




from the gospel of thomas:


(24) His disciples said: Teach us about the place where you are, for it is necessary for us to seek it. He said to them: He who has ears, let him hear! There is light within a man of light, and he lights the whole world. If he does not shine, there is darkness.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

Sort of like the two sides of a paper. You cannot take away or make a cut in one side without that also happening with the other side. You could however paint multiple rainbows on one side without taking away the pure whiteness of the other side. There are many flaws with that analogy but I think it points to something. 


      Nonduality is 'Sort of like the two sides of a paper." ?????

   same mistake...

if nonduality was sort of like duality there would be no need to call it nonduality...

nonduality is definitely NOT like two sides of anything...

you really have to take a right turn from thinking in dualistic terms and realize that everything you perceive and the act of perception itself are altogether one pearl...

I can paint you a picture but it won't get you wet...

t

I didn't say that it was like duality. I'm saying that duality as people experience it is a very limited part of the whole thing, but it's not other than it. If you think it is, you are probably stuck, my friend. I was assuming that you do not think it is. That's why I said you were talking about the same thing. 

   I think the three of us are expressing three different views.

   I'm frankly uncomfortable trying to justify my way of putting it to people who don't understand. There really isn't anything here to understand, if you understand me.

   There is nothing to be attained in perfect, unexcelled enlightenment.

terry
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

  People from (insert your town here) have no buddha nature.

   What is it that thus perceives?


   And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

    Us true knights can only slay such dragons, with their windmilling arms blowing in the wind.

t
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

  People from (insert your town here) have no buddha nature.

   What is it that thus perceives?


   And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

    Us true knights can only slay such dragons, with their windmilling arms blowing in the wind.

t

I think you guys are saying the same thing, just wording it differently.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

  People from (insert your town here) have no buddha nature.

   What is it that thus perceives?


   And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

    Us true knights can only slay such dragons, with their windmilling arms blowing in the wind.

t

I think you guys are saying the same thing, just wording it differently.


   Two sides of the same paper, eh?

   As though: It's the same ocean, whether painted on the wall - or - filling your visual field and smelling of salt and corroding your iron tools, in which you swim, encounter creatures, and may drown. There is the delusionary, limited, confining straightjacket of the (dualistic) world of good and bad, striving and failing, living and dying. And there is nirvana, the peace of the womb of god, drinking from the breasts of the great mother. There is dualistic life-and-death, the human prison, and there is nondualitic Life, and freedom.

   There are (dualistic) views. All such views are a tiny drop of oil on the buddha's foot. Then there is knowing all views are just views, partial and limited and so inferior to our intuitive grasp of the right thing to do that such views may be regarded as insignificant and hardly preferable to a cloud of unknowing.

   The tathagata and nonduality are one pearl.

terry






from 101 zen stories, reps...



101.

Buddha said:
'I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasure of gold and gems as so many bricks
and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of
fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of,
magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the
illuminated one as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of
daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs
as but traces left by the four seasons.'
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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There is dualistic life-and-death, the human prison, and there is nondualitic Life, and freedom.

Two sides of the same life, eh?   emoticon
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

  People from (insert your town here) have no buddha nature.

   What is it that thus perceives?


   And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

    Us true knights can only slay such dragons, with their windmilling arms blowing in the wind.

t

I think you guys are saying the same thing, just wording it differently.


I suppose it would be taken as dualistic of me to say we are not speaking about the same "thing" at all


    "One should always be preaching the dharma. Sometimes you even have to use words."

   The problem with words is that they are like consiousness itself, they can't point beyond themselves. Language begets more language.

   As wittgenstein says, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent. What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." The buddha hesitated and went on to preach; wittgenstein hesitated and went on with philosophical investigations, further language games than logic. Me, though, I'm exhausted, until next time.

   There is no evenhanded judge weighing two positions in the balance. Judge, scales and opinion holders are one pearl and their opinions just smoke and mirrors.

   Much aloha to you my friends, aloha nui loa.

terry
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terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Nonduality is not simply an alternative to duality; that would make it an opposing dualism. What you are doing is reifying dualism.

No, I'm presenting the case that both are true. These "views" called dual and non-dual are perceptions. 

  People from (insert your town here) have no buddha nature.

   What is it that thus perceives?


   And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

    Us true knights can only slay such dragons, with their windmilling arms blowing in the wind.

t

I think you guys are saying the same thing, just wording it differently.


I suppose it would be taken as dualistic of me to say we are not speaking about the same "thing" at all


    "One should always be preaching the dharma. Sometimes you even have to use words."

   The problem with words is that they are like consiousness itself, they can't point beyond themselves. Language begets more language.

   As wittgenstein says, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent. What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." The buddha hesitated and went on to preach; wittgenstein hesitated and went on with philosophical investigations, further language games than logic. Me, though, I'm exhausted, until next time.

   There is no evenhanded judge weighing two positions in the balance. Judge, scales and opinion holders are one pearl and their opinions just smoke and mirrors.

   Much aloha to you my friends, aloha nui loa.

terry



from "the zen teachiings of huang po," trans blofeld: 


   Though others may talk of the Way of the Buddhas as something to be reached by various pious practices and by sutra-study, you must have nothing to do with such ideas. A perception, sudden as blinking, that subject and object are one, will lead to a deeply mysterious wordless understanding; and by this understanding will you awake to the truth of Zen. When you happen upon someone who
has no understanding, you must claim to know nothing. He may be delighted by his discovery of some 'way to Enlightenment*; yet if you allow yourselves to be persuaded by him, you will experience no delight at all, but suffer both sorrow and disappointment What have such thoughts as his to do with the study of Zen? Even if you do obtain from him some trifling 'method', it will only be a thought-constructed dharma having nothing to do with Zen. Thus, Bodhidharma sat rapt in meditation before a wall; he did not seek to lead people into having opinions. Therefore it is written: *To put out of mind even the principle from which action springs is the true teaching of the Buddhas, while dualism belongs to the sphere of demons.

   Your true natue is something never lost to you even in moments of delusion, nor is it gained at the moment of Enlightenment. It is the Nature of the Bhutatathata. In it is neither delusion nor right understanding. It fills the Void everywhere and is intrinsically of the substance of the One Mind. How, then, can your mind-created objects exist outside the Void? The Void is fundamentally without spacial dimensions, passions, activities, delusions or right understanding. You must clearly understand that in it there are no things, no men and no Buddhas; for this Void contains not the smallest hairsbreadth of anything that can be viewed spacially; it depends on nothing and is attached to nothing. It is all-pervading, spotless beauty; it is the self-existent and unceated Absolute. Then how can it even be a matter lor discussion that the real Buddha has no mouth and peaches no Dharma, or that real hearing equires no ears, for who could hear it? Ah, it is a jewel beyond all price!
Ben Sulsky, modified 9 Months ago.

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No idea what this says about my practice, but I used to totally not get terry posts and now I think they're fantastic.  thanks terry!  

loving the late wittgenstein cameo
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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 And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

terry, I think we actually agree - you just don't like my words. Or maybe you're one of those non-duality reifiers  emoticon

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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
 And besides, "nonduality" is not a perception. As an object, a thing, a dharma it is conditioned by its opposite. This makes it cognizable but only as a fantasy. You are missing the moon and getting only the finger. You are presenting the case that nonduality is "merely" a dualistic one-sided opinion, dismissively and lost in an emprical world of only perceptions. Not knowing the ocean, you mistake a painting of the ocean for the real thing. (Green) cheese and (artist's) chalk, my friend. You can't mount a ladder to the moon, you can only reflect it.

terry, I think we actually agree - you just don't like my words. Or maybe you're one of those non-duality reifiers  emoticon


   If I don't agree that we agree, do we still agree if you say so?     

  And then there is one-sided agreement, where you may agree with the way I put it, but I don't agree with the way you put it. What you think you are agreeing with may not be what I'm indicating. 

   One may say that the ocean in the painting and the ocean in reality are really the same ocean; after all, the word "ocean" is the same in both cases.

   In a sense it is no doubt true that you know what you are talking about and I don't know what I'm talking about.

   I think we can both agree that we don't know.

   The unknowability of the unknowable is knowable absolutely. Existence is nothing but emptiness, emptiness nothing but existence.

   We can describe the truth of nonduality as "not two" but it's "not one" and "neither not one nor not two." It is not a thusness, not such, not a dharma. It is the no dharma dharma, wherein self being is dissolved in all being like a salt doll in water. All concepts of what it is dissolve in what it is, and only isness is left, only it isn't. 

   When there is no (perception of) self, there is no (perception of) duality, objects, dharmas. The projected perceiver is just another perception.

   And every statement is empty, a statement about nothing, a comment on no comment.

   We can quickly run this into the ground, two people speaking in different terms about something that can only be recognized by those who know it. A tacit understanding that may be transmitted but not shared (or shared only tacitly with our fellow are-shats)

   The danger here is indeed reification, making a prize of enlightenment and claiming it as a possession, as something of our own. We imagine we are enlightened and that we live in the realm of the gods. Next stop, hell.

   You don't have to say you are a buddha, just pretend you know something others don't. Something admittedly unknowable. All the other wranglers will admire your tweezer glint.


terry



   The yi jing says:

If a man carries a burden on his back
And nonetheless rides in a carriage,
He thereby encourages robbere to draw near.
Perseverance brings humiliation.

  
   
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Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

This thread makes me wonder another thing... Maybe the AF people were also harvesting brain center openings? That would explain how it could do something different from the path, like Daniel says. I would guess that they harvested different kinds of brain center openings than what Ni Nurta has been doing, though. I have more hope that Ni Nurta will actually use this for good and avoid turning into a robot, even though working with the siddhis is still risky business. 


BTW. If I ever turn to dark side it will be to later betray my dark lord and kill him emoticon


    Then keep a close eye on your friends, bra, lest they turn and rend you.

terry



"None ever learned the art of archery from me who did not, in the end, use me as a target."

~saadi
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
Practice #1 leads to the denial and suppression of one's humanity. There have been quite a few people through these boards who have professed to be able to maintain practice #1 and claim to have eliminated the pain and suffering (emotions) of being human. For some reason, these folks seem to disappear from these parts never to return, or eventually see their error clearly and recant.

emoticon


1. magic
2. logic


believing in magic will eventually catch up to you and you will inevitably catch a nasty virus...or a reasonable facsimile...



t




"A man who never changes his opinions is like stagnant water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
~blake





from "the commanding self" by idries shah:



FLAVOUR


Q: Many of the things which Sufis say should be approached with caution or avoided altogether except under special conditions, move me deeply. And many of these are things which people of all religions have need for centuries: music, invocations, rituals...

A: This is precisely why some people, in all religions, have warned against mistaking excitement for spirituality.

   If you have to flavour four hundred kilograms of ice cream, you will need one third of its weight in real fruit juice. If you put less in, you will be adding goodness, but it will not be perceptible. 

   If, however, you add instead synthetic flavouring, you will need only one three-thousandth of the volume to produce fruit flavour.
   
   Now decide, do you want the easy way to get flavour with no nutritional value, or the flavour and the fruit content as well? The smallest pinch of false fruit flavour will give the impression of fruit, and is easily pbtained.

   How many people, however, will say, "Why should I not have the synthetic, since it is so easily added?"
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The way I do it is to make both hurting place more transmissible and some other pathway next to it. If there is any kind of tiredness or pain inducing issue then resistance will be naturally higher than in the newly opened pathway which until then was resting so signals will much more likely go through new pathways. Signals will also go through hurting pathway but much much less and in this case it won't be experienced as suffering but rather something which feels like resting and healing or in other words: pleasure.

This does not require all that much precision and only thing to note is that it is much easier to locate pain than any pathway next to it so trying this approach when not having good perception of nervous system will be more like it first increases pain along making some of it change in to pleasure before getting to it disappearing and only experiencing pleasure and activity around the hurting place. With more precision it is possible to first deal with opening new pathways and then handle hurting ones and this is experienced as first having activity around hurting place along with disappearance of pain and then getting pleasure.

Blocking can work and it can force energy to go somewhere else but it is not supportive in healing and then you are left with said blockades. Also when there is a lot of energy and it can not easily go anywhere else it can cause really nasty overload in nervous system. However given how much blockades I had to deal with I guess for many years it was my method of choice emoticon It certainly feels more natural and obvious than opening yourself to experience the hurting place even more than it is already opened.

From within this perspective it is also possible to deal with suffering making whole nervous system (or just the affected path) flicker in and out of experience. I call this method as cessation though I am not sure if that is the best name. Applied globally it seems it causes everything to reroute itself naturally and also gives nervous system time to recover. I can still do it and at times it does seem like the best choice to just go with it and maybe fix any remain issues with other methods.

BTW. I think going to nervous system while it works pretty much always should be done as the last resort fix. Many of the emotional and even mental issues can be resolved from within normal experience by changing attitude toward certain things when it is this attitude that is causing issues to arise. End result should be the same and even physical pain can be dealt to the same degree without going to nervous system directly. It is because these methods are causing exactly the same change. Still dwelling in nervous system is useful because at times from experience it requires so much mental and emotional gymnastics that it is then simpler to work with nervous system.
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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As sombody that has to stick needles in his body at least five times a day I can add a #3.  Become the pain. If you want to call it that. No separation from the perception and there is only what is. No description needed. Just that.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Angel Roberto Puente:
As sombody that has to stick needles in his body at least five times a day I can add a #3.  Become the pain. If you want to call it that. No separation from the perception and there is only what is. No description needed. Just that.
Doesn't sound too pleasant. Hope you are getting better emoticon
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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Have you listened to "Windmills of Your Mind". If I can be allowed a poor imitation of my friend Terry, I'll include the lyrics.

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Keys that jingle in your pocket, words that jangle in your head
Why did summer go so quickly, was it something that you said?
Lovers walking along a shore and leave their footprints in the sand
Is the sound of distant drumming just the fingers of your hand?
Pictures hanging in a hallway and the fragment of a song
Half remembered names and faces, but to whom do they belong?
When you knew that it was over you were suddenly aware
That the autumn leaves were turning to the color of her hair!
Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind, like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind!
Songwriters: Marilyn Bergman / Michel Legrand / Alan Bergman


Be careful brother!  Life is much simpler.  When you still the windmills every thing else falls into place. Holding on to pleasant or unpleasant is not the formula. And thank you for your concern.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Angel Roberto Puente:
Have you listened to "Windmills of Your Mind". If I can be allowed a poor imitation of my friend Terry, I'll include the lyrics.

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Keys that jingle in your pocket, words that jangle in your head
Why did summer go so quickly, was it something that you said?
Lovers walking along a shore and leave their footprints in the sand
Is the sound of distant drumming just the fingers of your hand?
Pictures hanging in a hallway and the fragment of a song
Half remembered names and faces, but to whom do they belong?
When you knew that it was over you were suddenly aware
That the autumn leaves were turning to the color of her hair!
Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind, like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind!
Songwriters: Marilyn Bergman / Michel Legrand / Alan Bergman


Be careful brother!  Life is much simpler.  When you still the windmills every thing else falls into place. Holding on to pleasant or unpleasant is not the formula. And thank you for your concern.
aloha amigo (as some of the fruit vendors at the kona pure market say),

   I think of consciousness as like a kaleidoscope, whose sharp edged ever changing geometric progressions which so impress us turn out on analysis to be the result of a small handful of rounded, colored pebbles. 

terry
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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Hola. Right on!  If you admire the geometric progresions to much the prism gets stuck in your eye.  Like the kid band Dynamite Boy sang: 

My Kaleidoscope
My Kaliedoscope
Helps me see things my own way.

 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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... I can add a #3.  Become the pain.

Um, that's actually the same as #2  emoticon
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
... I can add a #3.  Become the pain.

Um, that's actually the same as #2  emoticon
I read that #2 "doesn't always make the pain go away immediatly". I'm not denying that this is a useful approach and correct for finding the cause of pain and even remediating it.  But when pain is expected and its source is known, fully concentrating on it from the start short circuits the concept of pain.  It's even worked when having stitches without anesthesia.  
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Angel Roberto Puente:
Chris Marti:
... I can add a #3.  Become the pain.

Um, that's actually the same as #2  emoticon
I read that #2 "doesn't always make the pain go away immediatly". I'm not denying that this is a useful approach and correct for finding the cause of pain and even remediating it.  But when pain is expected and its source is known, fully concentrating on it from the start short circuits the concept of pain.  It's even worked when having stitches without anesthesia.  
I second it is the same as #2
It also is pretty much the same as what I describe at times as "dropping relief from suffering"

There are some differences between "implementation" of course and this as I mentioned can be tweaked and improved. How much depends on training these skills and noticing what can be done at the place of pain and elsewhere. In general however general trend that when you let everything through is the same and if that is done certain things will happen naturally.

It could be said that with modifications this becomes #3, especially when you do it before pain happens but it is still too similar to not just put it to #2.

For #3 I would personally use doing cessation repeatedly on nervous system which is like flickering/flashing it. It is enough different in implementation and how it works and requires more knowledge and skill. It is also perhaps even further away from how people typically deal with suffering. It requires mastering all 9 jhanas to the point you can just do them even when experiencing distraction in form of suffering.

In some way it can be said that especially in case of very strong pain your body will do all these things by itself including method #4 which is: taking painkillers emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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But when pain is expected and its source is known, fully concentrating on it from the start short circuits the concept of pain.  It's even worked when having stitches without anesthesia.  

What do you mean by "short circuits the concept of pain?"
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
But when pain is expected and its source is known, fully concentrating on it from the start short circuits the concept of pain.  It's even worked when having stitches without anesthesia.  

What do you mean by "short circuits the concept of pain?"
It would be wonderful if when we write other people understand exactly what we meant and everybody understood the same thing. But that would bring this forum to a halt.  What fun is there in that?  When I read what Shargrol wrote I understood and agreed with his formula of Pain=discomfort x resistance. He goes on to describe the process. I see it as requiring some investigation of what is happening.  I've done this hundreds of times, almost on a daily basis now that old age brings new ways of causing pain. But what I'm talking about is not allowing any thought at all. Concentrating so hard on the physiological effects that they become a series of sensations.  I am not trying to get rid of the pain. Of course, this is not a formula for meditation, which would be bad, just a way to get through momentary and inevitable pain, using strength of concentration.  But, if not, you can use Ni Nurta's #3 or go straight to his #4, painkillers. emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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 I see it as requiring some investigation of what is happening... Concentrating so hard on the physiological effects that they become a series of sensations

So #2 then  emoticon
 

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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
 I see it as requiring some investigation of what is happening... Concentrating so hard on the physiological effects that they become a series of sensations

So #2 then  emoticon
 


Well, if you edit my comments I guess it is. Can you give me a #21/2 at least?  emoticon
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Angel, I didn't edit your comments. I excerpted what I thought were the cogent points.

I'm a long term vipassana meditator and what you were describing is vipassana. Investigating a phenomenon by focusing on it (concentrating) in order to deconstruct its constituent parts to see how it's built by mind (IOW, dependent origination). That investigation can very easily have the effects you're describing. I've done it many times myself. But I don't see it as another method. Rather, it's a different way to describe shargrol's #2 method.
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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I understand what you are saying and I agree. I was just bantering. I appreciate and respect the opinion of all the people here. I know they are serious practitioners. I continue to learn from the different views and experiences that can be read here. To be able to participate in such an open forum is a great gift.  Mind explorers!
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
Angel, I didn't edit your comments. I excerpted what I thought were the cogent points.

 I've done it many times myself. But I don't see it as another method. 


lol...
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Angel Roberto Puente:
Chris Marti:
But when pain is expected and its source is known, fully concentrating on it from the start short circuits the concept of pain.  It's even worked when having stitches without anesthesia.  

What do you mean by "short circuits the concept of pain?"
It would be wonderful if when we write other people understand exactly what we meant and everybody understood the same thing. But that would bring this forum to a halt.  What fun is there in that?  When I read what Shargrol wrote I understood and agreed with his formula of Pain=discomfort x resistance. He goes on to describe the process. I see it as requiring some investigation of what is happening.  I've done this hundreds of times, almost on a daily basis now that old age brings new ways of causing pain. But what I'm talking about is not allowing any thought at all. Concentrating so hard on the physiological effects that they become a series of sensations.  I am not trying to get rid of the pain. Of course, this is not a formula for meditation, which would be bad, just a way to get through momentary and inevitable pain, using strength of concentration.  But, if not, you can use Ni Nurta's #3 or go straight to his #4, painkillers. emoticon


   I inflicted pain on a daily basis for decades, as a medical technologist and the go to guy for the phlebotomists' hard sticks. I've done morning rounds where I stuck dozens of patients, minutes apart. I always said that if I ever wrote a book it would be called, "the art of painless phlebotomy."

   Most people regarded children as the hardest of sticks, and indeed they were often already traumatized when I got to them. But in fact they are most susceptible to misdirection and suggestion, the keys to ameliorating pain.

1. never let them see the needle, don't use the word 'needle' or even 'blood'...I would talk to the men about the latest coup by a local sports team, and to the women about their children...old people about their latest operation...to the children about their favorite toy, show, or food... if you can get them to focus on something they like to talk about, they barely notice they've been stuck, especially if they are talking when you do it...

2. suggest that it won't hurt, and if they are sufficently distracted and relaxed, it won't, I've had many patients claim to have not felt the needle go in...children often trust you so much they simply don't believe they felt any pain...the patient, unless very young, needs to know there will be a little shock, so they don't startle, so we say, "just a little pinch" softly while they are blathering about the latest dunk or achievement of their babies...

   In meditation I greatly prefer peace and quiet and have arranged for this. Occasionally some obnoxious noise persists and threatens to interrupt my concentration, but I soldier on and after many such occasions generally can ignore almost any sensation, including minor physical pain, and essentially let body and mind drop away, at least intermittently.

   For physical pain we have endorphins. For emotional pain we have laughter and tears. For spiritual pain, the dharma, the buddha, and the sangha.

   No hay problema.


terry
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
Sorry, Olivier, I do not think I am the kind of person who can communicate well with others.
I take "review"s way too seriously and no one shares my sense of humor in this regard.

I will remain silent.

Ni Nurtaji, it is true, your communication with others is completely for shit. This is one of your most endearing qualities. I treasure the microscopic bit of humor that I share with you.

For you to remain silent would be a catastrophic loss to all intricate minds spouting incomprehensible bullshit from the depths of their exploration of existence. But I believe there is no danger of this whatsoever. Your Buddha Ego is bulletproof and unquenchably resilient. I have told you half a dozen times to shut the fuck up for a minute, and you never managed more than 45 seconds on the best day.

And remember Rumi: 
Even if the corpse washer binds my jaw shut,
you'll still hear this song
coming out of my dead-silence.

. . .

But what can stay hidden?
Love's secret is always lifting its head
out from under the covers,
"Here I am!"

love, tim
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
Pepe:
The discussion is above my paygrade, but as I'm working in compiling Daniel's post, I share his post (January 2014) I found today, that may well address the topic.
Thanks for posting this Daniel's quote
It is a good one
Olivier:
Ironically, this seems to originally have been an answer to Ni Nurta !
I rememeber refering back to it heavily at the time trying to understand it correctly.

Recently all I get from this forum is chance to do morality training. Exactly to train myself at not racting to ill will.


   Recently you started a thread in which you declared you were a buddha. What did you expect, adulation?

   Two points:

1) When the buddha realized he was Enlightened, he went back to the group he had been practicing with and told them he had the answers. They wouldn't listen to him because he wasn't doing the practices as they were, as before. They criticized him for his unfaithfulness and inconsistency, and held it a disgrace. Through consistency, luminosity and clarity of insight, he won a following, and preached the dharma for 49 years.

2) When the buddha first considered the dharma, he thought to himself that maybe he would stay silent and not preach, because "the truth is subtle and hard to know." This was the first hesitation, the second being whether to admit women to the sangha. 

   If you feel you have been silenced by the effectiveness of the crtiticism, well then, I understand. Though you have been well enough received, and given a hearing, and criticism has not been overt. The group here is a buddhist one trying to keep its basic focus on meditation. The essential question is...drumroll please...

How does all this relate to (buddhist) meditation? As we assume it does, or you would not been telling us all this.

   The quintessential spiritual virtue is courage. The highest courage is that of the drunk so deep in wine that the curb can serve as a pillow, as we look up at the impossible stars.

   Of course, silence speaks for itself.

terry
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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When you train sight you need to know what you are staring at.
Then you stare until you see the thing you were supposed to see.
Then you verify.
Rinse and repeat.
This is called meditation, or otherwise known as neuron network training.

When I look for inspiration for my practice I look for descriptions of sights.
The person who invented them and his life story does not interrest me at all.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
When you train sight you need to know what you are staring at.
Then you stare until you see the thing you were supposed to see.
Then you verify.
Rinse and repeat.
This is called meditation, or otherwise known as neuron network training.

When I look for inspiration for my practice I look for descriptions of sights.
The person who invented them and his life story does not interrest me at all.


   Yet it is the buddha, the christ, who is the Word (Logos), not the de-scriptions. Give the buddha his due, he is our refuge, along with the dharma and the sangha. 

   The perfect human, the great one, is the whole of human society. When the yi jing says, "it furthers one to see the great man," what is meant is that we aspire to see the interests of humanity and indeed the entire web of life as one whole, the function of our species (as that of all sentient life) being to make the world a better place to live (obviously).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

~john 12:24

   Wysiwyg.


terry



kjv, nt, matt.

21And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

22For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

26And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

29But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

30And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

33And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:

   Yet it is the buddha, the christ, who is the Word (Logos), not the de-scriptions. Give the buddha his due, he is our refuge, along with the dharma and the sangha.
You go from descriptions to exactly the thing using unregistered hacks.
Logos is actually set of all souls in 11 dimensional space. Last time I checked it was there like always, not a lot going on really...
My personal choice for a spiritual reference is every experience (Vajra Samadhi), obviously.
And as for Budha, very blue. Slightly in to violet but actually not monochrome violet but he had red soul and the blueness was from the meditation practice he did. He couldn't make himself more red so he made himself very blue. Everyone has their kinks I guess. (ofc. joking, it was to create "reference")
Christ - ...ekhm... very convoluted, with putrid colour, lots of breaks, I think it is a virus. It has a lot of knowledge encoded but it is also very dangerous. One of the things that should be removed from people as it does not remove their suffering, just covers it with dust created by him devouring their soul energy.

This is at least what my vajra eyes presented me when I investigeted these two individuals.
Buddha I like. I generally like India, they have fascinating energy and people with nice colors.

ps. To kill off virus you need to starve it.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
terry:

   Yet it is the buddha, the christ, who is the Word (Logos), not the de-scriptions. Give the buddha his due, he is our refuge, along with the dharma and the sangha.
You go from descriptions to exactly the thing using unregistered hacks.
Logos is actually set of all souls in 11 dimensional space. Last time I checked it was there like always, not a lot going on really...
My personal choice for a spiritual reference is every experience (Vajra Samadhi), obviously.
And as for Budha, very blue. Slightly in to violet but actually not monochrome violet but he had red soul and the blueness was from the meditation practice he did. He couldn't make himself more red so he made himself very blue. Everyone has their kinks I guess. (ofc. joking, it was to create "reference")
Christ - ...ekhm... very convoluted, with putrid colour, lots of breaks, I think it is a virus. It has a lot of knowledge encoded but it is also very dangerous. One of the things that should be removed from people as it does not remove their suffering, just covers it with dust created by him devouring their soul energy.

This is at least what my vajra eyes presented me when I investigeted these two individuals.
Buddha I like. I generally like India, they have fascinating energy and people with nice colors.

ps. To kill off virus you need to starve it.

    Viruses are like programs, they don't eat, they replicate. Code coding code.

    Agree about buddha and christ. Talk about words carrying freight! Buddha: red to blue and back again. Christ: dust to dust. Red and blue are one thing, dusts are dangerous. But after all gotama and jesus are individuals, the buddha and the christ are everyone. Investigate everyone with your vajra eye.

   I never register my hacks. My left hack doesn't know what my right hack is doing.

   Mmm, soul energy, tastes like peaches.


terry



SPANISH PIPEDREAM
(john prine)

She was a level-headed dancer on the road to alcohol
And I was just a soldier on my way to Montreal
Well, she pressed her chest against me
About the time the jukebox broke
Yeah, she gave me a peck on the back of the neck
And these are the words she spoke
Blow up your TV, throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try and find Jesus on your own
Well, I sat there at the table and I acted real naive
For I knew that topless lady had something up her sleeve
Well, she danced around the bar room and she did the hoochy-coo
Yeah, she sang her song all night long, tellin' me what to do
Blow up your TV, throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try and find Jesus on your own
Well, I was young and hungry and about to leave that place
When just as I was leavin', well she looked me in the face
I said "you must know the answer"
She said, "no, but I'll give it a try"
And to this very day we've been livin' our way
And here is the reason why
We blew up our TV, threw away our paper
Went to the country, built us a home
Had a lot of children, fed 'em on peaches
They all found Jesus on their own

Songwriters: Jeffrey Bradford Kent, John Prine
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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shargrol:
(Well, truth be told... I'm hoping to eventually convey that symbolic use of neurology metaphors is more confusing that describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... that's my master plan. I mean, we've both had those wierd experiences of being microscopically aware of our body, having parts of our body almost seeming sentient, and having the chakras regions of the body being activated and all that psycho-emotional wierd stuff that happens. It's really confusing at the time... so I think I can relate to Ni Nurta's experience right now, but who knows where this will go? Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, okay?) 

(sometimes we have insights that are absolutely clear and unutterably comprehensive, but as soon as we try to communicate them, the bubble pops and all that clarity dissolves...the artist persists in trying against all obstacles - and the inherent impossibilty - to communicate insights anyway, anyhow; pathetic but transformative, as a butterfly struggling with a cocoon inspires us to transform our own lives, struggle with our own cocoons...as rumi says, judge a moth by his candle...the candle at least should not be covered by a bushel basket...everyone is a buddha, and it takes courage to entertain the possibility and express it, tantamount to saying, "kill me if you can"...)
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:
shargrol:
(Well, truth be told... I'm hoping to eventually convey that symbolic use of neurology metaphors is more confusing that describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... that's my master plan. I mean, we've both had those wierd experiences of being microscopically aware of our body, having parts of our body almost seeming sentient, and having the chakras regions of the body being activated and all that psycho-emotional wierd stuff that happens. It's really confusing at the time... so I think I can relate to Ni Nurta's experience right now, but who knows where this will go? Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, okay?) 

(sometimes we have insights that are absolutely clear and unutterably comprehensive, but as soon as we try to communicate them, the bubble pops and all that clarity dissolves...the artist persists in trying against all obstacles - and the inherent impossibilty - to communicate insights anyway, anyhow; pathetic but transformative, as a butterfly struggling with a cocoon inspires us to transform our own lives, struggle with our own cocoons...as rumi says, judge a moth by his candle...the candle at least should not be covered by a bushel basket...everyone is a buddha, and it takes courage to entertain the possibility and express it, tantamount to saying, "kill me if you can"...)


THE IMPOSSIBLE DREAM
(from "man of la mancha")

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go.
To right the unrightable wrong,
To love pure and chaste from afar,
To try when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star.
This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.
To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march
Into hell for a heavenly cause.
(**)To be willing to give when there's no more to give (**)
(***)To be willing to die so that honor and justice may live (***)
And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will be peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.
And the world will be better for this,
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage.
To fight the unbeatable foe.
To reach the unreachable star.

Songwriters: Leigh Mitch / Darion Joseph
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:
terry:
shargrol:
(Well, truth be told... I'm hoping to eventually convey that symbolic use of neurology metaphors is more confusing that describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... that's my master plan. I mean, we've both had those wierd experiences of being microscopically aware of our body, having parts of our body almost seeming sentient, and having the chakras regions of the body being activated and all that psycho-emotional wierd stuff that happens. It's really confusing at the time... so I think I can relate to Ni Nurta's experience right now, but who knows where this will go? Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, okay?) 

(sometimes we have insights that are absolutely clear and unutterably comprehensive, but as soon as we try to communicate them, the bubble pops and all that clarity dissolves...the artist persists in trying against all obstacles - and the inherent impossibilty - to communicate insights anyway, anyhow; pathetic but transformative, as a butterfly struggling with a cocoon inspires us to transform our own lives, struggle with our own cocoons...as rumi says, judge a moth by his candle...the candle at least should not be covered by a bushel basket...everyone is a buddha, and it takes courage to entertain the possibility and express it, tantamount to saying, "kill me if you can"...)


THE IMPOSSIBLE DREAM
(from "man of la mancha")

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go.
To right the unrightable wrong,
To love pure and chaste from afar,
To try when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star.
This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.
To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march
Into hell for a heavenly cause.
(**)To be willing to give when there's no more to give (**)
(***)To be willing to die so that honor and justice may live (***)
And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will be peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.
And the world will be better for this,
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage.
To fight the unbeatable foe.
To reach the unreachable star.

Songwriters: Leigh Mitch / Darion Joseph


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbgTUwUP-ew
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Chris Marti:
Shargrol, are you handing Ni Nurta a lifeline?

emoticon


lifelines r us
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:
Chris Marti:
Shargrol, are you handing Ni Nurta a lifeline?

emoticon


lifelines r us

I think the Dharma is a lifeline. The Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, lifelines all.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Tim Farrington:
terry:
Chris Marti:
Shargrol, are you handing Ni Nurta a lifeline?

emoticon


lifelines r us

I think the Dharma is a lifeline. The Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, lifelines all.

and we are the sangha
the buddha
and the dharma

lifelines r us
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Chris Marti:
It is possible to set barriers made with aversion on sense of self (or any part of nervous system) and this will cause it impossible for these parts of the brain to be used. It will also make them seem repulsive and unbearable. Those are the same barriers which are all over the nervous system which removal is needed for "admin rights".


Like Olivier, I've always wondered about the underpinnings of your neurological-like descriptions and assumptions about your practice, Ni Nurta. To be honest, they make no sense to me at all.

Please elaborate.
I said it before: different path
I am a Buddha

The right question to ask is: does Arhat still need sense door and abilities it provides.
I would say yes, you say no, we disagree and that is that.


   If you were cut in half and both halves continue to wiggle, which part contains the buddha nature?
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Olivier:
Where does this hardcore physicalism come from ?

What has made you so convinced that there is a one-one causal relation, a bijection, if you will, between material structures (neurons) and conscious experience ???
Do I really come off as someone who is hardcore materialist?

I try not to go too deep about things like super-mundane experiences as I consider them against DhO homepage which directly states : pragmatism over dogmatism: what works is key, with works generally meaning the stages of insight, the stages of enlightenment, states of deep concentration, freedom from suffering in what ways are possible, the criteria for various attainments, actual discussion of one's experience and the results of practice, etc.

The issues described by people, whole path of insight, non-dual perception, etc. can all be explained within model of nervous system development.
I am in touch with neurophysiologists who have written books about the subject and award winning philosophers of quantum physics. They usually consider that there has never been a good argument made to prove that conscious experience emerges from ontologically more primal entities called "neurons", "atoms" or "molecules". 
I think it is more complicated than mind being just spiritual or physical in nature because it is both.
The lower you go the more distinction between physical and spiritual starts to get fuzzy until it disappears, especially from perspective of experience.

I do not however think there is ever any need to go to spiritual aspect of reality to describe anything related to pragmatic side of dharma and frankly relying on spiritual explanations is what I call "ignorance" because it leads people to leave blank pages in their own documentation.

This is not an attack emoticon You've never answered me, perhaps I was not asking in the right way, but I'm truly curious, where your conviction comes from.

Simple: this is not my conviction. It is my preference of pragmatism that makes me talk about brain and everything from its perspective.

When it comes to spiritual part of universe in my working model 4th person has direct access to it. It is in form of Vajra Samadhi which is the best experience for any part of the nervous system that is possible. This equality that admin/arhat must have access to it was impled by my response to Daniel about removing barriers using Vajra tools. I do not use subpar channels to my body because I am the administrator.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
Olivier:
Where does this hardcore physicalism come from ?

What has made you so convinced that there is a one-one causal relation, a bijection, if you will, between material structures (neurons) and conscious experience ???
Do I really come off as someone who is hardcore materialist?

I try not to go too deep about things like super-mundane experiences as I consider them against DhO homepage which directly states : pragmatism over dogmatism: what works is key, with works generally meaning the stages of insight, the stages of enlightenment, states of deep concentration, freedom from suffering in what ways are possible, the criteria for various attainments, actual discussion of one's experience and the results of practice, etc.

The issues described by people, whole path of insight, non-dual perception, etc. can all be explained within model of nervous system development.
I am in touch with neurophysiologists who have written books about the subject and award winning philosophers of quantum physics. They usually consider that there has never been a good argument made to prove that conscious experience emerges from ontologically more primal entities called "neurons", "atoms" or "molecules". 
I think it is more complicated than mind being just spiritual or physical in nature because it is both.
The lower you go the more distinction between physical and spiritual starts to get fuzzy until it disappears, especially from perspective of experience.

I do not however think there is ever any need to go to spiritual aspect of reality to describe anything related to pragmatic side of dharma and frankly relying on spiritual explanations is what I call "ignorance" because it leads people to leave blank pages in their own documentation.

This is not an attack emoticon You've never answered me, perhaps I was not asking in the right way, but I'm truly curious, where your conviction comes from.

Simple: this is not my conviction. It is my preference of pragmatism that makes me talk about brain and everything from its perspective.

When it comes to spiritual part of universe in my working model 4th person has direct access to it. It is in form of Vajra Samadhi which is the best experience for any part of the nervous system that is possible. This equality that admin/arhat must have access to it was impled by my response to Daniel about removing barriers using Vajra tools. I do not use subpar channels to my body because I am the administrator.

yo ni,

   
   The problem with using "the brain" and "the nervous system" as spiritual metaphors is that there is an actual brain and an actual nervous system, and these are not analgous to what you are talking about, which smells more of cybernetics and systems theory, artificial intelligence and machine logic. 

   Materialism re-packaged as pragmatism. The soulless god of ai.

   I have to admire your originality and the sincerity of the attempt, though. I read your posts with interest.


terry
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:
Ni Nurta:
Olivier:
Where does this hardcore physicalism come from ?

What has made you so convinced that there is a one-one causal relation, a bijection, if you will, between material structures (neurons) and conscious experience ???
Do I really come off as someone who is hardcore materialist?

I try not to go too deep about things like super-mundane experiences as I consider them against DhO homepage which directly states : pragmatism over dogmatism: what works is key, with works generally meaning the stages of insight, the stages of enlightenment, states of deep concentration, freedom from suffering in what ways are possible, the criteria for various attainments, actual discussion of one's experience and the results of practice, etc.

The issues described by people, whole path of insight, non-dual perception, etc. can all be explained within model of nervous system development.
I am in touch with neurophysiologists who have written books about the subject and award winning philosophers of quantum physics. They usually consider that there has never been a good argument made to prove that conscious experience emerges from ontologically more primal entities called "neurons", "atoms" or "molecules". 
I think it is more complicated than mind being just spiritual or physical in nature because it is both.
The lower you go the more distinction between physical and spiritual starts to get fuzzy until it disappears, especially from perspective of experience.

I do not however think there is ever any need to go to spiritual aspect of reality to describe anything related to pragmatic side of dharma and frankly relying on spiritual explanations is what I call "ignorance" because it leads people to leave blank pages in their own documentation.

This is not an attack emoticon You've never answered me, perhaps I was not asking in the right way, but I'm truly curious, where your conviction comes from.

Simple: this is not my conviction. It is my preference of pragmatism that makes me talk about brain and everything from its perspective.

When it comes to spiritual part of universe in my working model 4th person has direct access to it. It is in form of Vajra Samadhi which is the best experience for any part of the nervous system that is possible. This equality that admin/arhat must have access to it was impled by my response to Daniel about removing barriers using Vajra tools. I do not use subpar channels to my body because I am the administrator.

yo ni,

   
   The problem with using "the brain" and "the nervous system" as spiritual metaphors is that there is an actual brain and an actual nervous system, and these are not analgous to what you are talking about, which smells more of cybernetics and systems theory, artificial intelligence and machine logic. 

   Materialism re-packaged as pragmatism. The soulless god of ai.

   I have to admire your originality and the sincerity of the attempt, though. I read your posts with interest.


terry


william blake said: "A fool who would persist in his folly will become wise."

the essence of meditation...
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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terry:

yo ni,

   
   The problem with using "the brain" and "the nervous system" as spiritual metaphors is that there is an actual brain and an actual nervous system, and these are not analgous to what you are talking about, which smells more of cybernetics and systems theory, artificial intelligence and machine logic. 

   Materialism re-packaged as pragmatism. The soulless god of ai.

   I have to admire your originality and the sincerity of the attempt, though. I read your posts with interest.


terry
I describe what I see, directly. It might look strange but no one guaranteed nervous system will look nice with symetrical shapes... wait, wait, I was actually promised nice glowing shapes from Hindi people. Now I want my money back XD

Ah, no it was "energetic system" and not nervous system...
Nervous system is too nervous to have time to care for looking nice emoticon
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
terry:

yo ni,

   
   The problem with using "the brain" and "the nervous system" as spiritual metaphors is that there is an actual brain and an actual nervous system, and these are not analgous to what you are talking about, which smells more of cybernetics and systems theory, artificial intelligence and machine logic. 

   Materialism re-packaged as pragmatism. The soulless god of ai.

   I have to admire your originality and the sincerity of the attempt, though. I read your posts with interest.


terry
I describe what I see, directly. It might look strange but no one guaranteed nervous system will look nice with symetrical shapes... wait, wait, I was actually promised nice glowing shapes from Hindi people. Now I want my money back XD

Ah, no it was "energetic system" and not nervous system...
Nervous system is too nervous to have time to care for looking nice emoticon

your mind is so great it contains the whole universe and more...chiliocosms...

your brain is two scoops of pink slime...

(and no different from any other two scoops of pink slime)

pretty as the body/mind may appear to be, on the inside (on autopsy, on analysis) it's all just gross sights, sounds, textures, smells and tastes...

stick to primal virtue...



(what if we haven't been born yet, and this matrix-like virtual space is really the womb, in which we are dreaming we are living a life?)


t




“Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was myself. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.”

~chuang-tzu
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Yes, you kindda sound like a hardcore/funky materialist to me.

The notion that the brain is a kind of computer is silly. Not that i'm a big fan of Varela, but have you read some of his stuff ? He's one pf the main people in cognitive neurosciences and biology of the previous decades so you ought to know a bit about him. I'm not well versed in his theories but for instance, i hope i remember the title correctly, he has an article about "Whence perceptual meaning?" which makes serious dents in previous symbolic-cognitivism as well as cybernetics and emergentist views of cognition... And that's from someone who's a big guy WITHIN the general framework of cognitive sciences/neurobiology...

And i don't feel like you answered my question or chris's.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Chris Marti:
I disagree with this construction.

There are no "admin rights" to be found. There is just THIS. The change isn't about getting superpowers over your mind. The change is realizing you have no control over your mind, accepting everything just as it is, and being content with what and who you happen to be, and basically sane.
My assumption was that people when they practice meditation kinda grow management program and then when it is fully grown they relinquish all administrative tasks to it. It is one way to do it. I did not want to do it like that as I chose different path.

I learned how to feel my brain and manage myself with what I can feel myself.
I do not think what I did is against Buddha's teaching. Though it definitely is more yoga dhan what dharma came to be.

edit://
I am not claiming any super-powers but having knowledge of how to manage my own brain internal working.
This is why I was always so baffled why people use word "insight" but describe experiences and not skills or what they saw about their brain inner working.
To me insight is literally insight in to how my brain works so I could use this knowledge to do stuff.
aloha ni,


   Having the knowledge, insight or ability "to do stuff" has no value without knowledge of what to do. In our context, the 8fold path, or the great way.

   Rather like giving a baby the strength of an 800lb gorilla. "I want a cookie!" Power corrupts without wisdom.


terry





XIV
(e e cummings)


pity this busy monster,manunkind,

not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
your victum(death and life safely beyond)

plays with the bigness of his littleness
-electrons deify one razorblade
into a mountainrange;lenses extend

unwish through curving wherewhen until unwish
returns on its unself.
A world of made
is not a world of born-pity poor flesh

and trees,poor stars and stones,but never this
fine specimen of hypermagical

ultraomnipotence. We doctors know

a hopeless case if-listen:there’s a hell
of a good universe next door;let’s go
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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I'm wondering something. The book Kundalini Vidya: The Science of Spiritual Transformation by Joan Shivarpita Harrigan mentions occult or elemental methods of stimulating brain center activity, which leads to non-ordinary states and special powers. It is seen as a non-spiritual practice. However, there are also overlaps with spiritual practices that accomplish the same effect. According to the book, there are yogic texts that "describe methods for focusing on chakra petals, which correspond to the petals of Sahasrara (brain centers), in order to utilize the abilities they provide so the seeker can more efficiently complete their dharmic duty" (p. 68). Those practices are group practices designed to aid the whole group, but with intense practice, individuals can gain dala activation as a side-effect from it. In some cases, divine interference can cause this to happen, the author says. Furthermore, brain center openings happen spontaneously as a natural side effect of the Kundalini rising, especially "deflected risings" where Kundalini doesn't go through the Makara point (if I understand this correctly, it means that one doesn't follow the progress of insight - no "real" A&P and no cessation). Occult practices therefore tend to seek deflected arisings, to harvest brain center openings. If I understand the author correctly, there isn't anything wrong with the brain openings per se, but harvesting them on purpose is risky business. She says "The spiritual traditions caution against cultivating brain center capacities (siddhis) because they can cause depletion to the vital energy, distraction to the mind, and temptation to go to the dark side (ego inflation, pride, greed, ambition, and selfish misuse of the powers). This admonition is counter balanced by the occult traditions' fascination with, admiration of, and efforts to acquire the paranormal abilities that result from harvesting the brain centers. The debate between these two perspectives (the spiritual and the occult) has been ongoing throughout the ages, with the spiritual traditions emphasizing the necessity to go beyond all phenomena, even subtle ones, to merge in the One, and the occult traditions praising the usefulness in the world of increased talent, genius, and special skills - sometimes for compelling humanitarian reasons."

Does this ring a bell? From your many very interesting accounts of your practice, it seems to me like you are actually harvesting brain center openings. Would you agree?

If so: Later in the book the author says that "Stimulation of the Sankhini nadi can yield brain center openings and thereby give special talents, but at the price of the dissipation of vaju vitality. When Sankhini is open and activated, amrit nectar pours down from the soma moon in the subtle brain system, and the nectar is burned" (p. 85). The Sankhini nadi is supposedly the stem and pericarp of the thousand-petal lotus, Sahasrara, which in the physical body means the brain function. If I understand it correctly, dissipation of vaju vitality and burning of nectar basically mean that you fry yourself. I'm not entirely sure what is meant, though, and I have no way of verifying it. I guess I'm wondering is... are you sure you're not frying yourself? Should I be worried? I don't know enough about this to tell whether or not the warnings are valid. You seem to know what you are doing and you seem to be doing fine morally. Maybe the caution is excaggerated, I really don't know. Just... please be careful! 

Or: Would you say that what you are doing is more in line with the yogic texts for group practice that have this side effect? I'm not sure if that would mean that it's safer or if it's still risky business. 

Is this a context that you are familiar with? 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda, it actually makes perfect sense. There is a kind of very sweet and extatic substance-like something which I know more or less how to trigger and which it then literally feells like it drips and flows through my brain. I did not use it much yet but it is in my plans. Burning brain... I think my neurons stopped caring for that sort for things long time ago and started enjoying it XD

The book you mentioned is definitely something which seems like I should read so thank you. It might give me some inspiration.

I do not consider myself occultist or even normal spiritual practicioner. Rather a freelancer of sorts.
I do not think there is any need to worry. I try to be at least moderately careful and at least not wake up more demons or bigger than what I can deal with one at a time emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Linda, it actually makes perfect sense. There is a kind of very sweet and extatic substance-like something which I know more or less how to trigger and which it then literally feells like it drips and flows through my brain. I did not use it much yet but it is in my plans. Burning brain... I think my neurons stopped caring for that sort for things long time ago and started enjoying it XD

The book you mentioned is definitely something which seems like I should read so thank you. It might give me some inspiration.

I do not consider myself occultist or even normal spiritual practicioner. Rather a freelancer of sorts.
I do not think there is any need to worry. I try to be at least moderately careful and at least not wake up more demons or bigger than what I can deal with one at a time emoticon

I had a hunch that it would make sense. I remember you mentioning the nectar too. You do seem to be doing fine, so I'm not that worried, but please watch out for any signs. It would be a tragedy to fry that beautiful mind of yours. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

I had a hunch that it would make sense. I remember you mentioning the nectar too. You do seem to be doing fine, so I'm not that worried, but please watch out for any signs. It would be a tragedy to fry that beautiful mind of yours.
By itself it rather makes my brain to feel colder, a cool sweet electric liquid feeling and colors much deeper and vibrant. There is very strong reaction of nervous system to it.
There must be some way to use this energy that is more meanigful than just making colors more vibrant and head orgasms. I gues the only way to find out is to jump off the cliff and break some neurons.

Still it can be used to generate much nicer metta...

Metta to you emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thankyou! I appreciate that.

Yes, you can probably accomplish a lot with this. Still, I feel that I should tell you that translated into traditional Buddhism, this seems to be a way to be reborn into a God realm. Blissful for eons, but then you die and will most likely be reborn in one of the lower realms. Whether there is any truth to that or just religious belief, I do not know. It's not a path that I would wish to take (and I have actually made a vow not to), but it's not for me to say what you should or shouldn't do. I just didn't want to withhold this information. You have the resources to choose what to aim for. I hope you will find your greatest good. Metta!
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

I had a hunch that it would make sense. I remember you mentioning the nectar too. You do seem to be doing fine, so I'm not that worried, but please watch out for any signs. It would be a tragedy to fry that beautiful mind of yours.
By itself it rather makes my brain to feel colder, a cool sweet electric liquid feeling and colors much deeper and vibrant. There is very strong reaction of nervous system to it.
There must be some way to use this energy that is more meanigful than just making colors more vibrant and head orgasms. I gues the only way to find out is to jump off the cliff and break some neurons.

Still it can be used to generate much nicer metta...

Metta to you emoticon

   Aristotle believed that the (sole) purpose of the brain was to cool the system, kind of like a radiator for the heart. Modern scientists of course ridicule this idea. 

terry
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
There is a kind of very sweet and extatic substance-like something which I know more or less how to trigger and which it then literally feells like it drips and flows through my brain. 

I have actually had experiences that could be described like that too. I don't know if they are similar or something else. Some of those experiences were earlier in my practice. I used to get drawn into altered states, and this flowing of substances would often mark the shift between different states. I just assumed that it was neurotransmittors being released, and that's probably what it was on a physical level. My current practice is less about altered states and more about dropping veils and letting go of the scaffolding that I have taken for granted in life but that actually turns out to be a straitjacket. I did have a very trippy experience a while back though when substances were flowing freely and kept me feeling high for 24 hours or something, when I did a tandem astral projection-ish thing. That was amazing but definitely not something to get too atached to as that would be very destabilizing. 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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There is a kind of very sweet and extatic substance-like something which I know more or less how to trigger and which it then literally feells like it drips and flows through my brain. 

This is a reasonably accurate description of some of the jhanas post-8th.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Chris Marti:
There is a kind of very sweet and extatic substance-like something which I know more or less how to trigger and which it then literally feells like it drips and flows through my brain. 

This is a reasonably accurate description of some of the jhanas post-8th.

Interesting. When this would happen to me I would also have very tangible experiences of activation above my head in one of the states, like I was hovering above myself, and like a cord from the back of my head to the core of the earth in another state. There was also an experience of like a fountain from the top of my head shooting out a cascade around my entire body as an egg-shaped energy shield that didn't at all feel like an armor but more like opening up. I still sometimes wake up in states like this during the night. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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I still don't really understand how in some phases jhanas just sort of unfold on their own with no effort whatsoever - I have even had to apply  effort for it not to happen - whereas most of the time they just aren't accessible to me. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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I know you disagree that it is possible to switch from/to not having sense of self and having it but from my limited experience it is very possible.

There is a place in brain which you can feel with your awareness which has a kind of special place somewhere in the middle back of your brain that I call "seat of the self" which is like diamond shaped necking. It has diamond shaped room above it. If you remove everything from this seat and room above it should be easier to do jhanas.

Best to do it one by one and move them down. There will be opening on either side leading to hemispheres and some more space below from which you can move it to eg. your spine. I guess it is the best to move them somewhere in the middle of hemispheres to the middle of white matter. The structure in question seems to hard hard walls and it is best to not try to push anything through it even if it is possible.

To move anything you need to use 5th jhana. It is general feel of control signals which matters not so much as being deeply in to it so the actions you do must feel exactly like 5th jhana and you use them exactly like you would imagine telekinesis to work or how you move visualizations. I guess that if you get to somewhat deep 5th jhana it won't be an issue. The nodes can be  moved as a bunch but that is hard and tiring and seems to cause structural stress. It is best to first lock on to single node.

You need to feel your way in to your brain and there will be what feel like miniature sentient being or what I call neuron. You just grab him... wait, technically it will be a "her" emoticon and move her. If she is well connected there will be tickling sensations like something disconnects. Try to do it gently when you move her out of her place. Also you can use this general method of locking on neurons to send them some metta. They like it a lot emoticon

Of course if you do it in reverse and take some neuron and start seating them in the seat of the self then you can have sense of self back. Though if you take random neuron you get random experience of self. Most neurons in the brain are almost exactly the same, general workers. There are however some fancier ones and these can give rather nice experience of self. These neurons also tend to play tag team with each other and change from time to time with the ones in this room above so these should be removed as well. I would however recommend removing them completely from this area and seeing what that does. In case you do not feel ready for this you can always reverse operation.

Disclaimer:
This is actually describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts
If anything actually moves in there I am not really sure. From however lived experience this is exactly how it feels and what needs to be done so might as well assume it is what happens and take all precautions that would be taken if it was really true. Meaning: be gentle.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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I don't disagree with that. That's where I am at, having it flicker inbetween having and not having a sense of self in a dualistic way. That means that I'm still stuck with views, according to Buddhism as I have been taught it. Now and then, however, I get really strong glimpses of something that transcends that division. There's a simplicity there, and a sense of having always known that, and still a remarkable relief from that weird totally unnecessary burden. I want to flip the switch to always accessing that transcendence of separation between it as perceived states. That's the highest priority of my practice now.

Your concentration skills are remarkable. I don't think you realize how impossible that kind of precision probably is for most practicioners. Like, you are actually suggesting that I should work from 5th jhana to remove barriers to accessing jhanas. Don't you see the catch-22 there? I have experienced 5th jhana while in review. I'm currently cycling the dukkha nanas. Also, you take it for granted that I can move around visualizations with precision. Visualization does not come easy for me. I'm not visually oriented. Still, it's absolutely fascinating to read your instructions. I treasure it. 

I do have experiences that feel like whole showers of something are being moved away from some space inside my head, totally beyond my control, and sort of emptying out the sense of self, as if sucking out the content of an egg. It is much less detailed than what you are describing, though. It leads to a sense of being space. I generally like that. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Nice to hear you have progress.

Relief seems to trigger pleasant experience but it is always somewhere very far away in experience. It seems it is enough to experience "relief" for like one moment and you can go to said pleasant experience.
Is this something you could confirm?
I mean I ask you to check this for me.

For me staying on experience of relief seems painful but also avoiding it at all by itself leads to a kind of apathy so not a solution either.

Wall of text ahead

Good concentration I guess have few characteristics:
- singlepointedness
- ability to be concentrated on more things at once
- sustainability

I practice all of them with workarounds I invented because normal practice sounded too hard.
For singlepointedness I visualize small dot, then smaller dot inside, then even smaller... you get the point emoticon

I do not concentrate so much on accuracy of awareness on the dot, just the size of the dot. That works for eyesight to be able to perceive clearly small thing without needing to move eyes so much. I guess it can be tried with being more accurate. I do not do it that way because it seems a bit harder and more work and generally distracts me from the size. It has to be made so small that you hear popping in your brain.

For ability to be aware of more things at once I keep consciousness on eg. both hands and try to make awareness not switch between them. At first it will switch slowly, then it will be faster, then like so rapid rapid it will seems you actually are aware of two things at once but if you look closer it will be seen it is just switching, then mind will distance itself from it all and create one image that kinda have both hands at once as one object. I keep at it and then my consciousness split and I have two consciousnesses at once. The process that happens here is like going through no path (slow conscious changes), 1st (faster automatic changes), 2nd (rapid changes), 3rd (creating separate routing interface) and then 4th (removal of blockade preventing both streams of experience show their consciousnesses). It is also exactly what I mean as "general routing issue" and show idea for its solution.

Some switching might still be experienced between consciousnesses, they kind fade in and out. The procedure to fix that is just to continue practice. I am not sure what happens if you do it for more time than few minutes as it usually does not take much time to get good enough effect.

For sustainability I experience jhanic version of the experience and concentrate on it. I can not sustain concentration on non-jhanic experience for more than seconds at a time. Catch-22 indeed emoticon
My thinking is that: Mind really can not concentrate on non-jhanic version of experience on itself. It has to be forced to stare on object and this is not non-duality. I do not practice concentration to experience jhanas but practice jhanas to get concentration. Chris was correct, I do things completely backward emoticon

What I do to get jhanic version is to seek my experience of it. It is out there somewhere for sure, just look around. Mind is really multidimensional so if your awareness go in some direction where it feel like you get closer to jhanic version then you might as well find it there. Action of seeking in your experience jhanic versions of experiences is the same as changing signaling used in your nervous system to generate said experiences. Once mind have something jhanic to concentrate on it will do it by itself.

If you think about it awareness is itself like an object. Its jhanic version can be found as well (definitely doable if you can use more than one consciousness). If that is done then if you move awareness on something you will by default get its jhanic version. It is because the experience is created in response to awareness.

If however you really want to concentrate on object then its jhana should be deeper than that of awareness. If everything has the same jhana just because you have awareness jhanic then there won't be any incentive for mind to keep itself on anything anymore than it normally would. It is good for life in general though. Also going from jhana to jhana or weaker jhana to stronger jhana is much easier from jhanas so there is really no point in using non-jhanic awareness other than maybe from time to time to study it.

Also all this seeking require a bit of precission and it is what small dot is for. It is also made not really in the center of awareness as my understanding is that it will naturally place itself somewhere more pleasurable thus predict positions of next jhanas at given depth. Though this last thing I did not really test and I just ignore position because it is easier to practice emoticon

Metta
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ni Nurta:
Nice to hear you have progress.

Relief seems to trigger pleasant experience but it is always somewhere very far away in experience. It seems it is enough to experience "relief" for like one moment and you can go to said pleasant experience.
Is this something you could confirm?
I mean I ask you to check this for me.

No, we are not referring to the same thing. I’m talking about liberation. That’s instantly pleasant and there is no distance at all.


For me staying on experience of relief seems painful but also avoiding it at all by itself leads to a kind of apathy so not a solution either.

What I’m talking about frees up resources for action that were previously locked inside the self-grasping. It’s not painful. It takes away pain and tensions that I wasn’t even aware of having.


Wall of text ahead

Good concentration I guess have few characteristics:
- singlepointedness
- ability to be concentrated on more things at once
- sustainability

I practice all of them with workarounds I invented because normal practice sounded too hard.
For singlepointedness I visualize small dot, then smaller dot inside, then even smaller... you get the point emoticon

I do not concentrate so much on accuracy of awareness on the dot, just the size of the dot. That works for eyesight to be able to perceive clearly small thing without needing to move eyes so much. I guess it can be tried with being more accurate. I do not do it that way because it seems a bit harder and more work and generally distracts me from the size. It has to be made so small that you hear popping in your brain.

You have better imagination then me. I don’t even know how to imagine something that small. Your brain was probably unusual from start, which enabled you to work like this. Or maybe I just have unusually poor imagination. I guess that’s also a possibility.


For ability to be aware of more things at once I keep consciousness on eg. both hands and try to make awareness not switch between them. At first it will switch slowly, then it will be faster, then like so rapid rapid it will seems you actually are aware of two things at once but if you look closer it will be seen it is just switching, then mind will distance itself from it all and create one image that kinda have both hands at once as one object. I keep at it and then my consciousness split and I have two consciousnesses at once. The process that happens here is like going through no path (slow conscious changes), 1st (faster automatic changes), 2nd (rapid changes), 3rd (creating separate routing interface) and then 4th (removal of blockade preventing both streams of experience show their consciousnesses). It is also exactly what I mean as "general routing issue" and show idea for its solution.

I know exactly what you are talking about here. That I can do.


Some switching might still be experienced between consciousnesses, they kind fade in and out. The procedure to fix that is just to continue practice. I am not sure what happens if you do it for more time than few minutes as it usually does not take much time to get good enough effect.

Well, I can tell you what happens if the switching keeps happening and you keep doing it without rest. You get dull. That’s what happens if you don’t have the concentration power that you have. You may even fall asleep. You are lucky. Well, luck is probably the wrong word. Blessed, perhaps?


For sustainability I experience jhanic version of the experience and concentrate on it. I can not sustain concentration on non-jhanic experience for more than seconds at a time. Catch-22 indeed emoticon

Yes, if jhana kicks in, that takes care of it. For me, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Although - the liberation I’m talking about takes care of it too. It doesn’t need the jhana. It just knows that this is the most natural way of experiencing reality, the way that requires the least effort. It drops the effort completely. I think that when that switch is flipped, it will sustain itself - as it has always done behind the veils of duality. That’s arahantship, if I understand it correctly, just naturally dropping the effort.


My thinking is that: Mind really can not concentrate on non-jhanic version of experience on itself. It has to be forced to stare on object and this is not non-duality. I do not practice concentration to experience jhanas but practice jhanas to get concentration. Chris was correct, I do things completely backward emoticon

What I do to get jhanic version is to seek my experience of it. It is out there somewhere for sure, just look around. Mind is really multidimensional so if your awareness go in some direction where it feel like you get closer to jhanic version then you might as well find it there. Action of seeking in your experience jhanic versions of experiences is the same as changing signaling used in your nervous system to generate said experiences. Once mind have something jhanic to concentrate on it will do it by itself.

I wonder if your extraordinary concentration power is actually in some sense holding you back. It is so easy for you to have this effort feeding itself that you don’t get to the point of surrendering it. In the periods when I have had jhanas unfolding on their own, it felt like no effort because it just... well, unfolded on its own. However, that’s not it. The liberation I’m talking about, which is still only glimpses for me, just drops the effort and is already there. There’s a whole different lightness to it. I guess since you seem to be mastering very subtle jhanas, maybe your go to experience comes very close to it. I wouldn’t know. I think that can be a trap. The sweetest trap ever. A golden chain, so to speak. But this is beyond where I am at. That trap isn’t even an option for me.


If you think about it awareness is itself like an object.

Not really. Or well, yeah, it can be. But that’s within a dualistic paradigm.


Its jhanic version can be found as well (definitely doable if you can use more than one consciousness). If that is done then if you move awareness on something you will by default get its jhanic version. It is because the experience is created in response to awareness.

This is how the formless realms are still dualistic constructions, not what is called the ground of being in Mahayana.


If however you really want to concentrate on object then its jhana should be deeper than that of awareness. If everything has the same jhana just because you have awareness jhanic then there won't be any incentive for mind to keep itself on anything anymore than it normally would. It is good for life in general though. Also going from jhana to jhana or weaker jhana to stronger jhana is much easier from jhanas so there is really no point in using non-jhanic awareness other than maybe from time to time to study it.

There is a point if one wishes to awaken to the ground of being. That’s why the jhanas can be a trap. They do make one hell of a raft for the journey, though. I could use more of that.


Also all this seeking require a bit of precission and it is what small dot is for.

Maybe I’ll give that a try.


It is also made not really in the center of awareness as my understanding is that it will naturally place itself somewhere more pleasurable thus predict positions of next jhanas at given depth. Though this last thing I did not really test and I just ignore position because it is easier to practice emoticon

Metta

It seems to me that awareness doesn’t really have any center. At times when the ground of being is veiled for me but still possible to contact, it seems like if I try to find the perceived center of awareness and find that there isn’t really anything there at all, I get sort of a sense of the source of it all. A direction that isn't really a direction. No dot could ever be there, but it's where all dots emmanate from. 

This has been a fascinating conversation. Much metta to you!
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:

No, we are not referring to the same thing. I’m talking about liberation. That’s instantly pleasant and there is no distance at all.
What I’m talking about frees up resources for action that were previously locked inside the self-grasping. It’s not painful. It takes away pain and tensions that I wasn’t even aware of having.
I describe issue of 'liberation from suffering' as such "grasping".
It generates a lot of turmoil and pleasure, mind need to know how to discern where to go after this action was performed and go to pleasure and not create another turmoil because it creates pleasure.
This sounds silly described like that but it is a real issue. People do keep pushing the same button more than once.


You have better imagination then me. I don’t even know how to imagine something that small. Your brain was probably unusual from start, which enabled you to work like this. Or maybe I just have unusually poor imagination. I guess that’s also a possibility.
Linda, my imagination is good only where I practiced it.
This focus practice apply at various places and was designed to be easy.
Cannot imagine small dot? First imagine large dot. Whole infinite universe if need be.
Hope it sounds familiar =)

Well, I can tell you what happens if the switching keeps happening and you keep doing it without rest. You get dull. That’s what happens if you don’t have the concentration power that you have. You may even fall asleep. You are lucky. Well, luck is probably the wrong word. Blessed, perhaps?
Because of my innate dissatisfaction with practice and no belief it is the practice that matters but an effect my nervous system automatically invent ways to avoid doing it, just give the effect and rest. You feel that exact dissatisfaction too when you practice for sure. Just let it be and let it do it's thing and it will push the right buttons and turn levers.
You more or less know what you want and someone else knows more or less how to do it.

Yes, if jhana kicks in, that takes care of it. For me, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Although - the liberation I’m talking about takes care of it too. It doesn’t need the jhana. It just knows that this is the most natural way of experiencing reality, the way that requires the least effort. It drops the effort completely. I think that when that switch is flipped, it will sustain itself - as it has always done behind the veils of duality. That’s arahantship, if I understand it correctly, just naturally dropping the effort.
When you get computer you create an account and automatically get admin rights.
It works? IT WORKS, THIS IS IT
After a while you have half of your screen with toolbars. Notification that 56 warnings and 13 errors were detected and in the background anti-virus software seems to be... struggling.
At this time you are still perfectly enlightened sentient being emoticon
You can take this analogy however way you want and it will always work.
You do not need to write your OS in 01 or build computer from hand made transistors. Only basic administrative knowledge:
- how to backup your data
- how to install operating system (next -> next -> next -> finish, then some drivers and tweaks to make it to your liking and represent your internal character)
- you are not affraid to configure it (You have nothing to worry because your photos from vacations are saved elsewhere and you remember your passwords)

So basic knowledge about management of your soul/mind/body = arahanship.
Brain has more distributed architecture than we are normally used to on computers but since we have tons of these it fits nicely.
So for 5th jhana if you already have it installed you locate fifth_jhana.exe on your pc and run it there, search for "Fifth Jhana" app on smartphone, etc. Is it different, same? You decide.
I say that once you can locate how to find program on some computer you will be able to run it easily. Given you have rights to run programs of course. That is not entirely given and this topic also need to be investigated and if there is an issue (or ignorance really, 10th fetter) it has to be resolved.

I wonder if your extraordinary concentration power is actually in some sense holding you back. It is so easy for you to have this effort feeding itself that you don’t get to the point of surrendering it. In the periods when I have had jhanas unfolding on their own, it felt like no effort because it just... well, unfolded on its own. However, that’s not it. The liberation I’m talking about, which is still only glimpses for me, just drops the effort and is already there. There’s a whole different lightness to it. I guess since you seem to be mastering very subtle jhanas, maybe your go to experience comes very close to it. I wouldn’t know. I think that can be a trap. The sweetest trap ever. A golden chain, so to speak. But this is beyond where I am at. That trap isn’t even an option for me.
This is a valid concern.
If things happen on their own it lead to laziness and ignorance.
That is why it is necessary to do some of the same practices. It can even lead to deeper insights and knowledge.

This is how the formless realms are still dualistic constructions, not what is called the ground of being in Mahayana.

There is a point if one wishes to awaken to the ground of being. That’s why the jhanas can be a trap. They do make one hell of a raft for the journey, though. I could use more of that.
If mind is too preocupied with them yes, it can be a trap.
I however think it takes more time running elypses around issues so the sooner as you can fix these issues the sooner you will start investigating things like ground of your being, Nibbana and Vajra Samadhi.
Jhanas tend to fix most of the issues. Even moral ones.

It seems to me that awareness doesn’t really have any center. At times when the ground of being is veiled for me but still possible to contact, it seems like if I try to find the perceived center of awareness and find that there isn’t really anything there at all, I get sort of a sense of the source of it all. A direction that isn't really a direction. No dot could ever be there, but it's where all dots emmanate from.

This has been a fascinating conversation. Much metta to you!
Awareness talks with nodes and paints on consciousness and consciousness broadcasts experiences to nodes. We think we have one awareness and consciousness but that is an illusion. The whole structure is not only quite complex but it also reconfigures itself constantly. At some point coherent story about all that is being made and it is overrelying on perspective of this story that causes confusion. This story has its own awareness and is then broadcasted. All these awareness and consciousnesses must somehow work together and they somehow do.

My take on it is that I need not know all the implementation details of such dynamic system. Only monitor from time to time and check if all the strategies are working correctly. From time to time maybe do deeper analysis, try something new like different configuration. Usually trying different configurations result in "dukkha nanas" though =P

In this bag of stuff there is also an important thing called "soul" and it increases overall complexity. The soul however is an asset. It is in the end what all this is for and maybe it can't make sense of the mind but it doesn't have to. Oversimplifying if soul will that there be 5th jhana in your mind then there will be 5th jhana in your mind.

Human soul is worth 1 schmeckel. Your, mine, everyone.
Even Gautama Buddha has soul that is worth exactly one schmeckel.
If you see Buddha and see bright light that seems to be worth more schmeckles then rest assured it is just for display.
How much schmeckles do you think non-jhanic experience that nervous system generates is worth that overpowering it in on spiritual plane will be an issue?
One schmeckel is an excessive amount really!
And once you can generate surplus of schmeckles in your nervous system who do you think will be able to use them?
Mind has no use for schmeckles, all it cares about is material world and resolving issues.
Mind really hates it when soul is not happy. If soul says it wants jhana then mind will resolve it internal conflicts and power struggles and jhana it is.
Doing jhanas is a good way to make body/mind/soul get to know each-other.
Then finally the meaning of "non-duality" can be unraveled emoticon

Metta : )
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 5758 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:

I describe issue of 'liberation from suffering' as such "grasping".
It generates a lot of turmoil and pleasure, mind need to know how to discern where to go after this action was performed and go to pleasure and not create another turmoil because it creates pleasure.
This sounds silly described like that but it is a real issue. People do keep pushing the same button more than once.

No, that’s not how liberation works, at least not in my experience, what I was talking about. From there, there really is nowhere to go. Nothing that could go anywhere, because there is no distance between mind and experience. Everything that is experienced is experienced where it is. There is no mind beyond what is already experienced. No turmoil whatsoever. Well, unless you are the kind of tantric practicioner that thrives on the awakened qualities of turmoil, I guess.


Linda, my imagination is good only where I practiced it.
This focus practice apply at various places and was designed to be easy.
Cannot imagine small dot? First imagine large dot. Whole infinite universe if need be.
Hope it sounds familiar =)

It is not easy for me. I understand how to go about developing it, though, so maybe I will. For me it is more accessible to do this with the nada  sound - zooming in on one small aspect of it so that the white noise becomes a clear tone. That I can do.


Because of my innate dissatisfaction with practice and no belief it is the practice that matters but an effect my nervous system automatically invent ways to avoid doing it, just give the effect and rest. You feel that exact dissatisfaction too when you practice for sure. Just let it be and let it do it's thing and it will push the right buttons and turn levers.
You more or less know what you want and someone else knows more or less how to do it.

When I push it like that I instantly fall asleep. This is probably an ADHD thing. I don’t think this is the way to do it for me.


When you get computer you create an account and automatically get admin rights.
It works? IT WORKS, THIS IS IT
After a while you have half of your screen with toolbars. Notification that 56 warnings and 13 errors were detected and in the background anti-virus software seems to be... struggling.
At this time you are still perfectly enlightened sentient being emoticon
You can take this analogy however way you want and it will always work.
You do not need to write your OS in 01 or build computer from hand made transistors. Only basic administrative knowledge:
- how to backup your data
- how to install operating system (next -> next -> next -> finish, then some drivers and tweaks to make it to your liking and represent your internal character)
- you are not affraid to configure it (You have nothing to worry because your photos from vacations are saved elsewhere and you remember your passwords)

I honestly believe you are describing siddhis rather than arahantship.


So basic knowledge about management of your soul/mind/body = arahanship.
Brain has more distributed architecture than we are normally used to on computers but since we have tons of these it fits nicely.
So for 5th jhana if you already have it installed you locate fifth_jhana.exe on your pc and run it there, search for "Fifth Jhana" app on smartphone, etc. Is it different, same? You decide.
I say that once you can locate how to find program on some computer you will be able to run it easily. Given you have rights to run programs of course. That is not entirely given and this topic also need to be investigated and if there is an issue (or ignorance really, 10th fetter) it has to be resolved.

See above.


This is a valid concern.
If things happen on their own it lead to laziness and ignorance.
That is why it is necessary to do some of the same practices. It can even lead to deeper insights and knowledge.

That’s what happens with cncentration if you don’t maintain it. Arahantship isn’t supposed to require that, and from what I have heard, it doesn’t. It’s probably always a good idea to keep working with morality, though, as that is a separate practice. Furthermore, even arahants need to keep up their concentration practice in order to maintain access to the jhanas. Access to nonduality, however, remains stable once the switch is flipped. It seems to me that you are not there. Neither am I, so this is just me trusting what I have been taught and glimpsed.


If mind is too preocupied with them yes, it can be a trap.
I however think it takes more time running elypses around issues so the sooner as you can fix these issues the sooner you will start investigating things like ground of your being, Nibbana and Vajra Samadhi.
Jhanas tend to fix most of the issues. Even moral ones.

No, I meant that it’s a trap exactly because you don’t need to occupy your mind with them. You are content the way things are, because of your admin rights. That’s not (full) Buddhist awakening. I don’t think it’s (full) Kundalini Vidya awakening either. And if the whole awakening thing only serves to make things better in this life, then that’s not a problem, I guess. But assuming that there is a point to it that goes beyond this individual life, then you are missing that target.


Awareness talks with nodes and paints on consciousness and consciousness broadcasts experiences to nodes. We think we have one awareness and consciousness but that is an illusion. The whole structure is not only quite complex but it also reconfigures itself constantly. At some point coherent story about all that is being made and it is overrelying on perspective of this story that causes confusion. This story has its own awareness and is then broadcasted. All these awareness and consciousnesses must somehow work together and they somehow do.

My take on it is that I need not know all the implementation details of such dynamic system. Only monitor from time to time and check if all the strategies are working correctly. From time to time maybe do deeper analysis, try something new like different configuration. Usually trying different configurations result in "dukkha nanas" though =P

In this bag of stuff there is also an important thing called "soul" and it increases overall complexity. The soul however is an asset. It is in the end what all this is for and maybe it can't make sense of the mind but it doesn't have to. Oversimplifying if soul will that there be 5th jhana in your mind then there will be 5th jhana in your mind.

Human soul is worth 1 schmeckel. Your, mine, everyone.
Even Gautama Buddha has soul that is worth exactly one schmeckel.
If you see Buddha and see bright light that seems to be worth more schmeckles then rest assured it is just for display.
How much schmeckles do you think non-jhanic experience that nervous system generates is worth that overpowering it in on spiritual plane will be an issue?
One schmeckel is an excessive amount really!
And once you can generate surplus of schmeckles in your nervous system who do you think will be able to use them?
Mind has no use for schmeckles, all it cares about is material world and resolving issues.
Mind really hates it when soul is not happy. If soul says it wants jhana then mind will resolve it internal conflicts and power struggles and jhana it is.
Doing jhanas is a good way to make body/mind/soul get to know each-other.
Then finally the meaning of "non-duality" can be unraveled emoticon

Metta : )

This is where you are missing the target.

Metta!
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
I am openly against idea of "liberation". Issues have to be fixed in the right way or cascading failure migth happen. Repairing this is not cheap. Guess who will pay the costs...
I described my model and practices.
My non-duality literally is: experience of all experiences in all time directions.

Where do you think I am vs. where I wanna be?
And as for absolute position I am exactly where every node in this universe already knows I am.

Also to your knowledge, structure of the universe was recently investigated and leaks from the main structure were patched because they were deemed as "stability risk". Everyone came back anyway so perhaps all this highly praised liberation they all dreamed about was a little midunderstanding.

There is litereally nothing keeping anyone here. Anyone can unregister at any time and go wherever they want. Universe is so nice that it will register you again. Just do not expect your assets to wait for you if you have a lot of unpaid debts. Logos has good memory. The best even.

And you Linda where do you want to go? Have you really given it enough thought to make such decissions?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 1981 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
... emoticon ... Im looking for the Bar(do) of Last Resort ... emoticon ... must be the next door ... my appologies, carry on, carry on ... emoticon 
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 252 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Better be more careful reading signs, you're going to have an accident. The sign said Turn Back Last Abort.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 5758 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I wish you the best, Ni Nurta.

Yes. I know my path.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta:
I know you disagree that it is possible to switch from/to not having sense of self and having it but from my limited experience it is very possible.

There is a place in brain which you can feel with your awareness which has a kind of special place somewhere in the middle back of your brain that I call "seat of the self" which is like diamond shaped necking. It has diamond shaped room above it. If you remove everything from this seat and room above it should be easier to do jhanas.

Best to do it one by one and move them down. There will be opening on either side leading to hemispheres and some more space below from which you can move it to eg. your spine. I guess it is the best to move them somewhere in the middle of hemispheres to the middle of white matter. The structure in question seems to hard hard walls and it is best to not try to push anything through it even if it is possible.

To move anything you need to use 5th jhana. It is general feel of control signals which matters not so much as being deeply in to it so the actions you do must feel exactly like 5th jhana and you use them exactly like you would imagine telekinesis to work or how you move visualizations. I guess that if you get to somewhat deep 5th jhana it won't be an issue. The nodes can be  moved as a bunch but that is hard and tiring and seems to cause structural stress. It is best to first lock on to single node.

You need to feel your way in to your brain and there will be what feel like miniature sentient being or what I call neuron. You just grab him... wait, technically it will be a "her" emoticon and move her. If she is well connected there will be tickling sensations like something disconnects. Try to do it gently when you move her out of her place. Also you can use this general method of locking on neurons to send them some metta. They like it a lot emoticon

Of course if you do it in reverse and take some neuron and start seating them in the seat of the self then you can have sense of self back. Though if you take random neuron you get random experience of self. Most neurons in the brain are almost exactly the same, general workers. There are however some fancier ones and these can give rather nice experience of self. These neurons also tend to play tag team with each other and change from time to time with the ones in this room above so these should be removed as well. I would however recommend removing them completely from this area and seeing what that does. In case you do not feel ready for this you can always reverse operation.

Disclaimer:
This is actually describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts
If anything actually moves in there I am not really sure. From however lived experience this is exactly how it feels and what needs to be done so might as well assume it is what happens and take all precautions that would be taken if it was really true. Meaning: be gentle.



wondering if I can use my zircon-encrusted tweezers to remove neurons from the little necked diamond shaped room...
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
terry:

wondering if I can use my zircon-encrusted tweezers to remove neurons from the little necked diamond shaped room...
I see you get it

You insert it through eye and... I am sure you then get all sorts of jhanas and non-dualistic effects emoticon
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 729 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Any suffering type you can get rid of with sitting and doing noting is pointless emoticon
I see it in simple terms: suffering happens because you do not know how to use your mind and basic faculities like sense of self, senses, etc. and these faculities are untrained and you not knowing how to use them you do not train them.

If you had the knowledge how to use your faculties but had literally the same brain as you have now it would be not so easy because many things to work correctly need some internal changes and these changes happen when you practice. But if you knew how to it should look like and what practices actually bring desired results it wouldn't be that long to have good effects. It is mostly because of not knowing anything and meerely blindly trying things someone told you to do and you not knowing how to do them that it takes so long time. You might even try the wrong method for years until you figure out the corrent method to accomplish something. You might also try wrong method, have some change and the thought to change it will elude you, maybe even for the rest of your life.

It is easy to have unsolved issue all your life and from what I gather almost no one know they can eg. improve their eyesight with simple practices which even in most lazy form can over time improve eyesight dramatically over years. When I talk with people about sight literally no one thought about training eyesight or that someone could use eyes different than they and that is the reason they see better. Eyesight is easily testable. It is literally what you see and how you see. It is so ingrained in collective consciousness you cannod do anything with it that people are even reacting with aversion and fear to the idea.

Why do I say this? Because sense of self, the how you should experience yourself, is also subject to identical assumption and social confirmation bias. You do not meet many people who tell you that they improved it and it make bid difference. You will meet these people here of course but even here you won't see word "improved" but something like "realized that it is that and that" and "there is no self!". It is completely UNIMPORTANT. It being this or that is not the point of enlightenment. Even Buddha did not state what is the version he believed to be true. What he taught was to work with sense and be aware of how mind work. Things like dependent origination relate to how mind work. This knowledge and training in perceiving how mind work and preparation of your mind during meditation have one clear goal: To improve whatever is not working correctly in your experience.

Sense of self is producing suffering because of few effects:
a) it literally produces suffering when part of brain which generates it get tired
b) it overpowers other experiences and add its own input to conscious sensate experience
c) perspective of this "doer" creates impression that there is actual need to have actions driven by "you" and to make it feels like you are doing something choices are presented to sense of self for it to choose and this puts constant stress on it, and creates experience of choosing all the time what is being done
d) these choices are illusion. Sense of self appears to choose what is being done and the belief then it is it is done because of self choose it. It didn't really had any say in it. It is a pawn which put stamps on something which was already decided
e) identification with oneself

re a.
Understanding a) is either easy or not. If it is not then consider that part of nervous system are like muscles. They get tired and if they get tired they will first start experiencing unpleasant symptoms and if if it goes worse then there will be pain. Not like headache but it will be experienced as fatigue and depending on type of being tired and level and what is being tired it might manifest itself as emotional pain, mental pain or even physical pain, dizziness, anxiety, etc.

re b.
Mostly because of b) people report their sensate experiences of the world and even how thoughts present itself to them to be vastly superior after enlightenment. Sense of self when it is not working correctly but also even if it is (let's say normal person who is not really unhappy, certainly do not report issues with self) will interfere with how sensual experiences are experienced by creating conscious experiences of world that because sense of self seems important to decision making process will be prefered over other conscious experiences eg. of what sensed themselves produced. This will make world look and feel completely differently, literally presentation will be different.

When sensual data is processed subtle details are preserved because all what can be picked is potentially advantageous. Nothing in experience gets priority over anything else, all is processed with the same care and attention, at least as much as sense organs allow. Eg. it is obvious that eyes have central focal area where image is clear so it will have more detail and it does make sense for what is being looked at to be presented more vividly as it happens when sense of self is active. When it is not active so much then what happens is that all of the visual perception seems as important and is processed more thorougly allowing to notice subtle beautiful details. Sense of self select from sensual experiences things it seems as important and feed to conciousness version of sensual experience with this selection being highlighted. Or rather not it is highlighted but everything made bland and as uninterresting as to not take away awareness from what sense of self selected. When we are young it is not bad, everything is still pretty much new. When we get older however, like even in out twenties, then this selection because much more agressive so watching world all that really seems interresting is what sense of self can relate to and deem important to it. It will also change perception of these things to not show these things and their beauty but only what sense of self things about it, about why they should be observed, usually with the idea that in the future (or now) we will be acting upon these things somehow.

So everything in perception becomes rather map of our opinions. Literally with opinions so ingrained in evertything that anything opinion is unfavorable in a way that perception of it is not needed will feel painful to wath at. Anything potentially bringing positive effects will feel nice but in completely different way than senses would present it normally. And anything bad but which need to be handled will be feel interresting to look at but with lots of strong negative emotions. Solving issue of self makes original perception that senses itself create without this overlay of opinionsm and thoughts about how this thing is better than this other thing because of stuff. If something is pleasant for senses it is just because it is. Sensual experiences are also a lot deeper. I would even say whole sensual experience seems closer, larger and much more vibrant with more contrast perceived. Sense of self makes everything look monotone really, with reduced fidelity.

re c.
Because sense of self creates story that it does make actions possible bu deciding what to do mind will naturally bring more and more perception of choices to consciousness. It is habitual, mind could not do that for sense of self but it only makes sense to do so. After all there is this "doer" which always say that it did the thing which was being done. So best to prepare to it some choices so it can select and do stuff. This creates constant stream of having something to choose, something that needs to be done. It is fine when somethign interresting happens but when doing borind stuff and also having to constantly make conscious effort to do these things feels bad. It actually mostly feels bad because of what I mentioned in point a) so tired nervous system and not merely making decissions but still normal intuitive undertanding apply.

There is also another issue: what to do when something really need attention and deliberate choice needs to be made? Brain will present all sorts of option with strong intensity to sense of self and require quick reaction making it decide faster with causing unpleasant experiences for delaying decission. Sense of self knows it need to make choice for these choices to disappear. But it itself can not really decide anything so it is not sure what to choose.

re d.
All choices are actually made before they go to sense of self. There is always one which will be choosen presented in the way that fit to the story. If mind wants doing something completely out of character of sense of self then it will make it present in such way for sense of self to agree. There is good understanding what will work.

It however does not need to be always the case. There might be actual choice made withing sense of self to choose different action that presents itself as the best choice. It can happen because sense of self is not really a pawn and it has some saying in everything. Choices it makes are mostly made outside it. Still there might be moment of hesitation, it processes something in way that causes it to choose differently... and despite this choice it won't be the action which it chose that will be done but the one which was to be done right from the start.

This type of suffering is I'd say of the type that affect people with more self consciousness than more simple minds. If someone is complete ignorant they will always fabricate reasons on the spot and believe in them for their action even if they did not actually chooseto do it that. Those more conscious will realize that what they can do with this sense of self is not that much if it is really used in a way that feels like using it the way it should be used. There is limited stopping, acting and choosing what to do, what to even think about. They will realize that they want there to be no thoughts but there is tons of thoughts and actions which happen like they were choosen but without their conscious choice. This creates suffering.

re e.
Identification causes suffering from points from a to d to increase drastically. At first we do not identify with self at all, it is there but there is neither feel it is that important nor there are any epxectations. Over time we identify with sense of self and that is why the issues start to appear, especially when identification is so precise that it is not some general idea of self that we identify with but specifically the experience that is NOW. It is always the one from now. It it somehow changes there will be no missing gone self. What I mean is that even within sense of self there are like copies of it which are similar but different. They are supposed to change so that all of them are used. It is to avoid issue with nervous system being tired also to not limit own perception to new things by always running the same "filter". Switching them also helps with the issues b) to d). When part of brain was not used for some time it reacts to signals differently, more leisurely pass things as they are and even makes them acquire new freshness. If these sense of self were changed regularly, preferably in very short intervals, long enough to be able to utilize them as intended but short enough to avoid issues caused by abusin nervous system, then there woulnd't really be issue of the self.

What causes it is identification. We start to identify with experience of sense of self and even experience of world that it creates. The exact presentation this self provides of sensual experiences is very much expected and thought processes start to treat its input too seriously. Sense of self, what creates it, gets tired (a) more and more, starts making even more simplifications which lead to focusing too much on certain things which might normally be not that important (b), start to be flooded by decissions (c) and start becoming actually self conscious (d). It driving perception itself also react to strong defensive reactions, especially since it is tired and makes errors.


-------------
What Vipassana meditation does for you is that it basically overdrives sense of self. You start noting sensations using what looks like normal experience where you consciously choose what to do. Then it gets faster and faster so you can not keep up and action itself doesn't seem to benefit from sense of self that much anyway. Things start to be perceived as noted when nothing is done while sense of self expects to be in control. Also sensations from all around body and mind are noted coming from random directions. Sense of self as it is cannot keeep up. When you also start paying attentions to three characteristics (impermanence, suffering and no-self) you experience more directly sensations do disappear always no matter what, that any action of sense of self related to sensations causes suffering to arise at the same time (it might seem that sensation it itself suffering but it is an illusion) and that sensations ran on different clocks/patterns from self, are not synchronized with it so cannot be all that related to it.

After some time has passed on doing practices regularly this causes sense of self to isolate itself as separate object in awareness rather than seeming integral part of the experience. Consciousness which for quite a long time experienced more direct shower of sensation without experiences running through sense of self will start to open up to experiences directly from senses. This experience is more pleasant so it will over time overpower the version sense of self creates. Then war is almost won. Still sense of self will interfere, especially since it is strongly connected, identification still happen, some actions we completely do not know how to without using it. This might continue for quite some time and I do not think that even after few years from 4th path I moved some things from sense of self and use it to do them.

Despite sense of self not being core of your being. Identifcation stops when mind actively objects its validity (certain experiences identified as fruitions are helpful for that) and wihout identification even sense of self itself is more free to switch itself even if it is being used for when it is used. It doesn't present itself as it need to be used, strain on nervous system when it is not used or used sporadically with often change what exact pathways are used wont happen. Perception that senses generate is not obstructed by sense of self verions and it itself becomes additional view which can be used which seems like an advantage to have rather than issue. Control happens by itself without input of self. It still creates story when used but it knows it is just a story. It also knows its effect on overal decision making process is limited. It still does have say in what is being done as it always had. When at this stage (it is 3rd path) it seems to it that action is necessary (it can react intutively, especially since it was conditioned to do that for years) then it will provide its input and change overall let's say rating for mind choosing some options. This happen without dukkha because at this point mind both intuitively and generally knows sense of self is just one of many of its parts and sense of self also knows its input is limited and how it feels in overall mind landscape.

Important thing: sense of self have specific feel to it. Senses when they show raw stuff (what they processed) do not choose paints, they take what they see as closest fit, even to the point of making things appear like they were experienced like memory suggests they would be. This all feels rather very real and natural. Sense of self on the other hand feels always very mush like some person, us, was commenting stuff in the background. It might be pleasant or not. If it is pleasant then it can as well be experienced like before, make it feel the consciousness. Though until sense of self is really fixed there will be conflict and struggle for power and sharp perception changes between self perception and no-self perception. It all should fix itself at the end of 2nd path and at 3rd path sense of self should feel as very healthy, with it knowing itself what it is, it not fighting for domination and when active it is switching to different versions of sense of self to avoid getting tired rather than it identifying itself as whole person or even that while it is not whole mind then it still somehow exists and it must be active - this should be at this point conditioned out.

At 4th path sense of self is completely removed from mind. Like its interfaces it had in place it was in mind were severed. It will make it impossible to have it like before in way that it can replace sensual experience created in senses. Senses get priority, but in rather peculiar way because it is different than when sense of self was still connected. Then it seemed that sense of self represented opinions and raw senses what is being actually seen. After 4th path the way sensual experience (so also things like thoughts which are experienced because there internal sense door for them) is not seen as reality that is behind senses but as something completely fabricated in brain and every detail about this fabrication can be pinpointed as to where. This can be described in terms of reference sensations eg. position sensation, perceived size, distance, etc. are all experienced as state of other sensations which arose at thesame moment. They are like pure versions of these qualities but also itself just a separate sensations. It can also be described and experienced as activations in nervous system, though this version is more obscure and I guess not everyone can even experience this perspective as it requires training feeling own nervous system in more menifgul way. By itself this nervous system perspective describes the same thing, that perceived qualities of sensations are due to parts of brain being active at the time sensation itself was processed.

This separation happen because it is natural presentation. It feels and looks awesome but at the same something about it feels natural and even familiar. We must have used it when we had sense of self still in development. Sense of self put itself as reference for all experiences, replaced even how things are perceived. When it was used less and from within more proper perspective it was possible to experience what senses experience (or rather parts of brain which process senses, though it is also possible to get to signals from senses without much processing because they are still there! processing done in brain just add more sensations) but sense of self still acted as a proxy to make this experience sems somehow real, like it was about perception of real objects or at least senses itself being somehow self contained things which created self contained specific experiences. This experience of sensations being glued in to something which represent objects is what sense of self when still connected will to some degree always do, even at 3rd path. At late 3rd path the impression is that this does not happen anymore but the difference between 4th path is rather stark showing that only whole thing was glued in to one idea of self once again, this time in non-dual presentation and presented as sense of self always presented things instead of actual experiences from senses.

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Suffering is reduced because sense of self can not sustain itself automatically. It can be triggered and will do its operation for a single moment and create where it is its typical experience whatever it came to be after all this practice. It should be very nice actually if there was healthy development or rather unpleasant if there are some issues within development. Some people I would assume never really fixed their senses of selves before disconnecting them completely. Those will still claim sense of self is and was the issue that had to be resolved. They will even tend to choose wrong interpretation of Anatta where it is supposed to reveal ther is no self. When developed healthy there is not much reason to not use sense of self so over time it gets introduced to experience in some form. This is not an issue, sense of self exists for a purpose and denying it leads to issues. Some of issues people report after 4th which should not happen are cycles of insight. Fixing sense of self even before 4th path reduce amount of cycling drastically and feels generally more healthy. Any possibility that sense of self will be an issue again if it is let to be there are dwarfed by memory of initial period after 4th path and the difference between having sense of self (even healthy, let alone unhealthy) and not having it at all is so strong that merely remembering it will inhibit sense of self and cause sense of self to subside.


So that would be it for sense of self, what that does and what 4th path feels like and why it is better state... wait, I did not say why... It is because raw presentation of sensations when they do not need to be merged in to objects that have qualities and can be seen as qualities arising with the sensations is simply better. Objectively it feels better. It also makes it dead simple to analyze things like own thoughts and emotions and even sensual informations. When you feel complex emotion it is hard to get to what makes it not entirely pleasant. When things present itself where they are then if something feels less than satisfactory it can be separately handled.

For example you are bored. There is something which feels like strong overwhelming sensations, generally unpleasant. Changing it to something else seems daunting impossible task. But if you can see that it is mostly qualitiy that amplify any other reference quality that happen to arise at the same time then it is possible to locate the sensation or set of sensations which feel unpleasant and change them with something else eg. jhana.
After enlightenment I would assume one should have realized that making any part of mind experience jhana is always the way to go and can be universally used to fix all issues. This is unlike some other solution which while might be faster better also have downsides. Jhana might not make everything instantly pleasant but that is only the precission used. 4th path allows for precission and makes it easy to change any experience by modifying what qualities arise in mind to describe it.

----
You asked for examples for skills that reduce suffering.
If you paid attention you should know that it is possible to perceive each experience as sum of qualities which are themselves separate experiences.

If experience of pain happens it is possible to locate where it is, then if that is not precise enough then each indivitual part of what makes this experience can be located. From these the one which actually causes suffering can be isolated. This might not be precise enough but can be continued until mind maps which exact experiences make this whole experience of pain unpleasant. They are so tiny and basic and they are itself the suffering so there is no resistance in changing them. Replacing them wiht completely different experiences elsewhere is still hard (not impossible though) but the very thing which makes jhanas so plesant can be done on these experiences making them change in to pleasure. And if these experiences are jhanized then whole experience will automagically appear as if it was pleasant. Most sensations inducating strenght, size, weight, etc. are exactly as they were but instead of amplifying suffering now amplify bliss.

Note: this can work without perspective of 4th path. At this point (4th path) it should rather be like now you got this new awesome perception which makes doing deep inside what makes experience tick so much easier and precise than it was before than something completely new. I used this "skill" from since 1st path. Before 1st path I also used it but it was then something to which no deliberate thought went. If jhana somewhere started arising then it just made sense that if there is suffering experienced then if jhana and this suffering somehow met, either in the same place or somehow at the same time, then suffering will be dissolved. Position is not as important here as much because it is the time sensations are processed matters. Awareness can cause jahan to be felt in specific place but it is only due to amplifying experiences. Suffering has its own amplification built-in, otherwise it would be very small, comic even. That is why it easily is overpowered by jhana. At 0th path and even mostly at 3rd it didn't really so much remove suffering as added pleasure and this could cause suffering to subside but is could still persist. Begining near end of 3rd path the development which happens is ability to exactly divide and conquesr experiences. Isolate their "pure forms" (I called them that, and also as "sensations destilation") and actually be able to change pain in to pleasure.

BTW. 4th path happens when sense of self is taken as object for this destilation. It is then analyzed,what makes it tick is recognized very precisely. Then it can be jhanized which will cause it to feel insanely pleasant. Pure abode like. There is however functionality of 5th jhana which can disconnect (and reconnect) parts of mind permanently. If at the right moment this self is analyzed (as it tends to be because it not only normally can cause suffeeing but can also be used to get pleasant mind state) and right flavour of 5th jhana is activated then not much is needed to experience 4th path. A little nudge is more than enough. Remap it something else and it won't be connected to consciousness in the same way anymore.

Similarly any thing in mind which is seen as an issue can be analyzed and changed, either for some time (jhanas seems to sustain themselves when right pure flavours are used) or permanently. Knowing how to do which operation and what they do is a knowledge/skill. The more you have it the less any form of pain looks like the unresolvable issue and more as a chance to practice this skill and while at it experience some pleasure which built in apmplification provides. BTW. it might be obvious question to ask: "isn't is unskillful to manipulate perception of pain to be pleasurable?" It is skillful as long as cause of pain is known, have been analyzed and all actions to reduce it that make practical sense have been taken or will be taken. Which means that a long as mind does not register something as pain it won't really bother considering it as a threat. That is why it is skillful to let experiences happen naturally and modify then as they appear rather than do anything to cause mind to constantly change experiences to be pleasant, unless absolutely sure this won't lead to issues.

Like really enlightenment is that ridiculous. It has nothing to do with what sense of self even is. Sense of self is large part of path to enlightenment but not its meaning or final conclusion. Just a system which has a lot connectivity to brain and conscious experience that also has issues and once they are resolved and this system interfaces hacked it can be used to have control over your own brain. With control and knowledge how to use it and some precission it is literally possible to make oneself feel as awesome all the time as desired, like ever blissful or whatever, experience orgasms at will.

If you have any doubts or question about some part please raise question. I will try to answer in timely manner.

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rambling below:
ps. Identification is a fetter. Anyone who say there is no self or we really are this or that and something because of it would technically have this fetter not removed. We are many different things at once and all those facts have implication. There is like no point whatsoever in using some fact to get exited about it. Worse, it can lead to clouded perception. Best to find other methods of getting amplification going on to be able to experience lots of pleasure. Like for example it can be literally visualized if the exact quality of it is known and used separately.
Also trick to draw complex mind states is to divide them in to single parts and draw them separately, at one moment but separately. That requires good concentration skills. These are needed to deal with suffering because it is necessary to pinpoint and keep in mind at once multiple sensations. Having one consciousness not sway from sensation is hard. So much harder is literally keeping any number of them.
ps2. I joked a little. Keeping any number of sensations at once and changing them in real time is easy. That is what sense of self does naturally, it is good at it. So better it exists in shape and form that makes it usable.
ps3. Did I say sense of self is disconnected? It merely changed trigger from whatever presents in special place in mind to no trigger at all. Mind can trigger any part of itself directly if it knows where it is. If part of brain is disconnected using 5th jhana it merely means it does not respond to one of neurotransmitters, probably serotonin is among them. Even in case of complete cut-off other systems based on other neurotransmitters can still be used for example dopamine. That way not only sense of self can be disconnected but also cut in pieces and its internal structure reorganized to support new functions. It already has all the required connections to consciousness so it is better to hack it than to create new system like that completely from scratch. Though I guess at this point there already is system like that developed and it can always be used a backup and to control the sense of self that it does what was intended.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?
Obviously he choses to do it.
It is something which happens when you want it to happen.
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?
Obviously he choses to do it.
It is something which happens when you want it to happen.

There is no "obviously" here; you are projecting your own egotism onto Daniel. Your sense of agency here, of who does what when he wants to, is clearly bulletproof. The basis for your desires appears to be a deep devotion to reinforcing that spiritual egotism. You have used that marvelous mind of yours to dig a deep pit of idiosyncratically reinforced self, as I hear it. The rest of it is smoke and mirrors, with little fire and less light. God bless you, and your unassailable sense of supreme self. 
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Months ago.

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Having been on the DhO since its beginning around 12 years ago, I am having a hard time remembering when comparisons like "who is the most enlightened" did anyone any real good. While I can appreciate why such discussions happen, as it would seem an obvious thing to discuss, practically not so much.

It is also hard to diagnose people based on internet posts, particularly as one gets out past the initial insight cycles, as I have learned after years of both reading posts here and also talking with hundreds if not thousands of people who have posted here. It is worth knowing that there are often curious discrepancies in what comes out one-to-one and when carefully questioned and listened to for long enough, much less actually hanging out with them in person for some reasonable period of time. I mean no particular implications here regarding Pł/NN, just in case anyone is trying to read too much into this.

It is definitely true that pain is a really funny thing, in that pain in different contexts of different types viewed different ways and with different purposes can be reacted to very differently by people. The BDSM community is but one dramatic example of this, but there are plenty of others, as walking into any gym or medical residency program will reveal. Clearly, that is an obvious avenue of personal hacking, as plenty of people have discovered.

Slogans like, "No Pain, No Gain," and, "Pain is fear leaving the body," and, "Hurt so good," are classic examples. As noted above, the various ways you can distract people so they don't even feel pain or process it very differently, as pointed out by our resident phlebotomist, are other striking examples of this, as I got to see daily when I worked in various ERs, particularly pediatric ones, where we had specialists who were specifically trained to do that, and they were amazing to watch.

I can think of numerous examples in my own life of situations where pain that most people would probably have found pretty intense and unpleasant were not so to me at the time, with these memories going back to my childhood and long before I thought of myself as a meditation practitioner.

An example I believe I have used before here is of an extremely tough career Army woman whose ankle had an open, 100% displaced (foot hanging off to the side of her lower leg and connected only by tendons and the like with the bones sticking out) ankle fracture, and she asked me to reduce it (put the bones back in the correct alignment until they could be surgically repaired, an extremely painful procedure we generally do under full sedation, meaning with the patient unconscious) without any pain medication or anesthesia, so, right there, with no meds, I put her ankle back in the proper orientation and splinted it, and she watched me calmly with an expression of mild curiosity, not flinching an instant, and said, "That wasn't so bad." It was one of the stranger things I saw during my 19 years in clinical practice and training.

I have also seen highly functional adults crying and screaming over things like tiny splinters and small, barely noticeable bruises.

There is some data to suggest that at least part of our relationship to pain and how we perceive it is genetic, with the far end being people who literally perceive no pain at all, and so the notion that one person's ability to modify their pain response would necessarily be available to everyone else is likely debatable and would make for a fascinating, if ethically complicated, study.

I also have seen people clearly dissociate profoundly in the face of pain, just walling themselves off in some other place where the pain was not, to such a degree that their body stopped responding as if their was pain, meaning no sweating, no increased heartrate or respiratory rate, nothing to indicate that somewhere there was intense pain, at least in theory, as the question then becomes, "If there is pain and you either don't feel it or don't perceive it as pain, is it actually pain?"

Then I have the reports by some mom's that thought their children might have had some lingering bad effects after they underwent painful procedures in the ER (such as having bone reset, large abscesses drained, etc.), during which they were profoundly sedated (but not paralyzed) with no obvious reactions at all to the pain during the procedure, but then afterwards had some memories or dreams or some other PTSD-like reaction regarding the pain, even though at the time of the pain they appeared entirely unconscious and unresponsive. Our brains are complex things.

So, I keep an open mind about the range of how people are able to modify themselves and their attitudes to various experiences.

I also hold very loosely the correlation between perceiving the Three Characteristics and other powers, moral implications, special abilities, concentration abilities, etc. as I have seen too many exceptions to everyone's attempts at rules to believe it is all so simple.

Best wishes for your own practices, and thanks for your reports of what is out there. As a Naturalist and phenomenologist, I very much appreciate people being willing to share their lives and the vast range of what various meditative and other practices might produce.
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Just to clarify I do not like pain. That is why I hack it when it happens. It's just an example and I am personally more interested in improvement of eyesight, not pain, not control. Most of the time I do not use control but let experience "fall" on the best sensation and that makes everything have its qualities.

Actually it would be the best if meditation was meditation, it would be that each practice has its benefits and that would be that. Level of attainment or path is just a stupid thing from India where they invented caste system and it carried on. I guess I should unlearn it as it proven itself that talking about this is unskillful.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Tim Farrington:
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?
Obviously he choses to do it.
It is something which happens when you want it to happen.

There is no "obviously" here; you are projecting your own egotism onto Daniel. Your sense of agency here, of who does what when he wants to, is clearly bulletproof. The basis for your desires appears to be a deep devotion to reinforcing that spiritual egotism. You have used that marvelous mind of yours to dig a deep pit of idiosyncratically reinforced self, as I hear it. The rest of it is smoke and mirrors, with little fire and less light. God bless you, and your unassailable sense of supreme self. 
aloha aloha aloha,

   Linda, this is particularly harsh as you kind of led the guy on. He is sensitive to negative reviews, as he has explicitly said (and who isn't?). Projecting his projecting egotism on daniel is more your projection. And your equation of agency with egotism is false.

   You use the "I" word as much as anyone. Agency is taken for granted in speech, "I" say so. It is the way we talk and express ourselves, as individuals. It's how arhats can say they are arhats without knowing they are arhats. ("The buddha told me I was an arhat, and I believed him.") Note that the "I" word can be systematically avoided and doing so adds an subtle charm to one's writing. Try it.

   The question when making such judgments should be, is this person in the main trying to help or just tooting their own horn because they like the sound?

   Even this last long post of pawel's seems to be sincerely directed at trying to make people aware that they have the power to change things that they don't like about themselves, and to share methods. Use any idiom or language you like, make it personal, be original, and if it works, share it. Nothing unwholesome or offensive in this, from what I have seen. It's not exactly meditaition or buddhism but conforms to the buddhist/yogi sense that suffering and the desire for pleasure is the main focus.

   Pawel's view is a psychology rather than a philosophy or religion. He has a hands on approach you may feel smacks of egotism or attachment to agency. His point is that you too could use this hands on approach to fix many of the problems that you deal with and don't think can be fixed. Like poor eyesight, for example. Or any other problem you have that you think can't be helped.

   Is this material useful? That's not really the question. Is it harmful? Back when he was turning the three marks upside down and claiming it was the true dharma it appeared deliberately perverse. On this thread we see a range of humor, whimsy and a practice of self improvement  which is idiosyncratic but not completely extra-terrestrial.

   If you find it useful, fine. If not, well then, try be kind, eh? 


terry
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:
Tim Farrington:
Ni Nurta:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?
Obviously he choses to do it.
It is something which happens when you want it to happen.

There is no "obviously" here; you are projecting your own egotism onto Daniel. Your sense of agency here, of who does what when he wants to, is clearly bulletproof. The basis for your desires appears to be a deep devotion to reinforcing that spiritual egotism. You have used that marvelous mind of yours to dig a deep pit of idiosyncratically reinforced self, as I hear it. The rest of it is smoke and mirrors, with little fire and less light. God bless you, and your unassailable sense of supreme self. 
aloha aloha aloha,

   Linda, this is particularly harsh as you kind of led the guy on. He is sensitive to negative reviews, as he has explicitly said (and who isn't?). Projecting his projecting egotism on daniel is more your projection. And your equation of agency with egotism is false.

   You use the "I" word as much as anyone. Agency is taken for granted in speech, "I" say so. It is the way we talk and express ourselves, as individuals. It's how arhats can say they are arhats without knowing they are arhats. ("The buddha told me I was an arhat, and I believed him.") Note that the "I" word can be systematically avoided and doing so adds an subtle charm to one's writing. Try it.

   The question when making such judgments should be, is this person in the main trying to help or just tooting their own horn because they like the sound?

   Even this last long post of pawel's seems to be sincerely directed at trying to make people aware that they have the power to change things that they don't like about themselves, and to share methods. Use any idiom or language you like, make it personal, be original, and if it works, share it. Nothing unwholesome or offensive in this, from what I have seen. It's not exactly meditaition or buddhism but conforms to the buddhist/yogi sense that suffering and the desire for pleasure is the main focus.

   Pawel's view is a psychology rather than a philosophy or religion. He has a hands on approach you may feel smacks of egotism or attachment to agency. His point is that you too could use this hands on approach to fix many of the problems that you deal with and don't think can be fixed. Like poor eyesight, for example. Or any other problem you have that you think can't be helped.

   Is this material useful? That's not really the question. Is it harmful? Back when he was turning the three marks upside down and claiming it was the true dharma it appeared deliberately perverse. On this thread we see a range of humor, whimsy and a practice of self improvement  which is idiosyncratic but not completely extra-terrestrial.

   If you find it useful, fine. If not, well then, try be kind, eh? 


terry


   Apologies to linda, should have known it was out of character, really really.. just like tim f though...give 'im hell, bra...

t

   
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 9 Months ago.

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Hola Terry, I love the discussions and reading all the different views. They are very instructive. And they reminded me of the Tao Te Ching/Witter Bynner:

Existence is infinite, not to be defined;
And, though it seem but a bit of wood in your hand, to carve as you please,
It is not to be lightly played with and laid down.
When rulers adhered to the way of life,
They were upheld by natural loyalty:
Heaven and earth were joined and made fertile,
Life was a freshness of rain,
Subject to none,
Free to all.
But men of culture came, with their grades and their distinctions;
And as soon as such differences had been devised
No one knew where to end them,
Though the one who does know the end of all such differences
Is the sound man:
Existence
Might be likened to the course
Of many rivers reaching the one sea.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Angel Roberto Puente:
Hola Terry, I love the discussions and reading all the different views. They are very instructive. And they reminded me of the Tao Te Ching/Witter Bynner:

Existence is infinite, not to be defined;
And, though it seem but a bit of wood in your hand, to carve as you please,
It is not to be lightly played with and laid down.
When rulers adhered to the way of life,
They were upheld by natural loyalty:
Heaven and earth were joined and made fertile,
Life was a freshness of rain,
Subject to none,
Free to all.
But men of culture came, with their grades and their distinctions;
And as soon as such differences had been devised
No one knew where to end them,
Though the one who does know the end of all such differences
Is the sound man:
Existence
Might be likened to the course
Of many rivers reaching the one sea.

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

   Of the many versions of the tao te ching - more translations than any other book except the bible - bynner's, written in mexico city during ww2, is one of my all time favorites.


2

People through finding something beautiful
Think something else unbeautiful,
Through finding one man fit
Judge another unfit.
Life and death, though stemming from each other, seem to conflict as stages of change,
Difficult and easy as phases of achievement,
Long and short as measures of contrast,
High and low as degrees of relation;
But, since the varying of tones gives music to a voice
And what is the was of what shall be,
The sanest man
Sets up no deed,
Lays down no law,
Takes everything that happens as it comes,
As something to animate, not to appropriate,
To earn, not to own,
To accept naturally without self-importance:
If you never assume importance
You never lose it.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Yeah, I didn't write what you first attributed to me, and I certainly had no intention of leading Ni Nurta on. I do find his reports both very interesting and often also helpful. I do not doubt his sincere wish to help. I may not wish to take the exact same path, and I may not agree with his take on everything, but I find his practice remarkable. 
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yeah, I didn't write what you first attributed to me, and I certainly had no intention of leading Ni Nurta on. I do find his reports both very interesting and often also helpful. I do not doubt his sincere wish to help. I may not wish to take the exact same path, and I may not agree with his take on everything, but I find his practice remarkable. 
Your question was very good actually.
It led me to coclusion that I am actually stopping all cycles of insight since past few years and there might possibly be some value of letting it through. Though if I do that depends on my own internal motivation. If it is to get more enlightened I wont fall for it.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

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Are the cycles a problem that needs to be stopped? 

I don't have any answer there. I guess I have sort of taken for granted that they will always be there but they will stop feeling that relevant. They seem less relevant now than before, but I'm still affected by them. I think of them as something similar to weathers. I actually like most weathers and I enjoy the variation, but I do need to adjust my clothing. Sometimes I'm bothered by it and wish it were different, but it seems like that resistance and lack of adjustment are much more of a problem than the weather itself. The weather just is. It makes more sense to adjust clothing and enjoying the variation as much as I can rather than spending time being grumpy about it. There is so much beauty in the different weathers, after all. They all have their own special charm and they also fill different functions. Maybe that could be said about the nanas too?
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Ni Nurta, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are the cycles a problem that needs to be stopped?
Irrelevant

What matters is if
a) you want to and can't
b) you don't want to and can't
c) you don't want to and can
d) you want to and can
Ben Sulsky, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

Posts: 118 Join Date: 11/5/19 Recent Posts
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are the cycles a problem that needs to be stopped? 

I don't have any answer there. I guess I have sort of taken for granted that they will always be there but they will stop feeling that relevant. They seem less relevant now than before, but I'm still affected by them. I think of them as something similar to weathers. I actually like most weathers and I enjoy the variation, but I do need to adjust my clothing. Sometimes I'm bothered by it and wish it were different, but it seems like that resistance and lack of adjustment are much more of a problem than the weather itself. The weather just is. It makes more sense to adjust clothing and enjoying the variation as much as I can rather than spending time being grumpy about it. There is so much beauty in the different weathers, after all. They all have their own special charm and they also fill different functions. Maybe that could be said about the nanas too?
Linda, I'm in similiar territory I think.

"They seem less relevant now than before, but I'm still affected by them," who sits outside the nanas and judges them?  I know the feeling of the nanas feeling like swirling textures of reality, out there like leaves or trees.  But what could be more a part of me than these lenses coloring the sense doors?  I can hear thoughts that speak sentences about the nanas and where I am in them and how I feel about them.  Are the thoughts me but the nanas aren't?  Why does it feel that way?  Where am "I" trying to escape to?  

And you're right, they do seem less important, but the cascades of sensation they produce are as strong or stronger than ever.  Why might that be?

Please note that I don't have answers to these questions, this is close to the cutting edge of my practice.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Yeah, I didn't write what you first attributed to me, and I certainly had no intention of leading Ni Nurta on. I do find his reports both very interesting and often also helpful. I do not doubt his sincere wish to help. I may not wish to take the exact same path, and I may not agree with his take on everything, but I find his practice remarkable. 


   Agreed, and I am truly sorry I wasn't more careful, and that I wasn't more perceptive of who I was talking to. It was careless. I found your responses thoughtful, interesting and informative. Your attitude unprejudiced and willing to learn. I should have realized it wasn't your writing. Especially since what I was saying could have been construed as critical. I should think twice before posting something like that.


terry



(sprechen sie deutsch?)



DIE GAZELLE
Gazella Dorcas
(rainer maria rilke)

Verzauberte: wie kann der Einklang zweier
erwählter Worte je den Reim erreichen,
der in dir kommt und geht, wie auf ein Zeichen.
Aus deiner Stirne steigen Laub und Leier,
und alles Deine geht schon im Vergleich
durch Liebeslieder, deren Worte, weich
wie Rosenblätter, dem, der nicht mehr liest,
sich auf die Augen legen, die er schließt:
um dich zu sehen: hingetragen, als
wäre mit Sprüngen jeder Lauf geladen
und schösse nur nicht ab, solang der Hals
das Haupt ins Horchen hält: wie wenn beim Baden
im Wald die Badende sich unterbricht:
den Waldsee im gewendeten Gesicht.






THE GAZELLE
Gazella Dorcas

Enchanted thing: how can two chosen words
ever attain the harmony of pure rhyme
that pulses through you as your body stirs?
Out of your forehead branch and lyre climb,
and all your features pass in simile, through
the songs of love whose words, as light as rose-
petals, rest on the face of someone who
has put his book away and shut his eyes:
to see you: tensed, as if each leg were a gun
loaded with leaps, but not fired while your neck
holds your head still, listening: as when,
while swimming in some isolated place,
a girl hears leaves rustle, and turns to look:
the forest pool reflected in her face.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:

Agreed, and I am truly sorry I wasn't more careful, and that I wasn't more perceptive of who I was talking to. It was careless. I found your responses thoughtful, interesting and informative. Your attitude unprejudiced and willing to learn. I should have realized it wasn't your writing. Especially since what I was saying could have been construed as critical. I should think twice before posting something like that.


Thanks pal and no worries! It’s good to hear, though, that the words didn’t get in the way of the exploration that much, because sometimes they do. There is so much positioning built into language, so much categorizing, so much discrimination between this and that, so little of that dance that it tries to capture. So yeah, the quoted text is very spot on.

My German isn’t that well practiced - I learned it at a time in my life when I could barely speak spontaneously in my mother tongue because of constant stage fright (related to being autistic among ”normal” people) - but it’s there. I just never got into the habit of actually speaking it.
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
terry:

Agreed, and I am truly sorry I wasn't more careful, and that I wasn't more perceptive of who I was talking to. It was careless. I found your responses thoughtful, interesting and informative. Your attitude unprejudiced and willing to learn. I should have realized it wasn't your writing. Especially since what I was saying could have been construed as critical. I should think twice before posting something like that.


Thanks pal and no worries! It’s good to hear, though, that the words didn’t get in the way of the exploration that much, because sometimes they do. There is so much positioning built into language, so much categorizing, so much discrimination between this and that, so little of that dance that it tries to capture. So yeah, the quoted text is very spot on.

My German isn’t that well practiced - I learned it at a time in my life when I could barely speak spontaneously in my mother tongue because of constant stage fright (related to being autistic among ”normal” people) - but it’s there. I just never got into the habit of actually speaking it.


   If you have enough german to be able to read rilke rhyming his sublimites you are blessed.

t



from the duino elegies, rainer maria rilke, in "ahead of all parting," ed and trans stephen mitchelll:



DIE ERSTE ELEGIE

Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel
Ordnungen? und gesetzt selbst, es nähme
einer mich plötzlich ans Herz: ich verginge von seinem
stärkeren Dasein. Denn das Schöne ist nichts
als des Schrecklichen Anfang, den wir noch grade ertragen,
und wir bewundern es so, weil es gelassen verschmäht,
uns zu zerstören. Ein jeder Engel ist schrecklich.
  Und so verhalt ich mich denn und verschlucke den Lockruf
dunkelen Schluchzens. Ach, wen vermögen
wir denn zu brauchen? Engel nicht, Menschen nicht,
und die findigen Tiere merken es schon,
daß wir nicht sehr verläßlich zu Haus sind
in der gedeuteten Welt. Es bleibt uns vielleicht
irgend ein Baum an dem Abhang, daß wir ihn täglich
wiedersähen; es bleibt uns die Straße von gestern
und das verzogene Treusein einer Gewohnheit,
der es bei uns gefiel, und so blieb sie und ging nicht.
  O und die Nacht, die Nacht, wenn der Wind voller Weltraum
uns am Angesicht zehrt—, wem bliebe sie nicht, die ersehnte,
sanft enttäuschende, welche dem einzelnen Herzen
mühsam bevorsteht. Ist sie den Liebenden leichter?
Ach, sie verdecken sich nur mit einander ihr Los.
  Weißt du’s noch nicht? Wirf aus den Armen die Leere
zu den Räumen hinzu, die wir atmen; vielleicht daß die Vögel
die erweiterte Luft fühlen mit innigerm Flug.
Ja, die Frühlinge brauchten dich wohl. Es muteten manche
Sterne dir zu, daß du sie spürtest. Es hob
sich eine Woge heran im Vergangenen, oder
da du vorüberkamst am geöffneten Fenster,
gab eine Geige sich hin. Das alles war Auftrag.



THE FIRST ELEGY

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels’
hierarchies? and even if one of them pressed me
suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing
but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.
  And so I hold myself back and swallow the call-note
of my dark sobbing. Ah, whom can we ever turn to
in our need? Not angels, not humans,
and already the knowing animals are aware
that we are not really at home in
our interpreted world. Perhaps there remains for us
some tree on a hillside, which every day we can take
into our vision; there remains for us yesterday’s street
and the loyalty of a habit so much at ease
when it stayed with us that it moved in and never left.
  Oh and night: there is night, when a wind full of infinite space
gnaws at our faces. Whom would it not remain for—that longed-after,
mildly disillusioning presence, which the solitary heart
so painfully meets. Is it any less difficult for lovers?
But they keep on using each other to hide their own fate.
  Don’t you know yet? Fling the emptiness out of your arms
into the spaces we breathe; perhaps the birds
will feel the expanded air with more passionate flying.
Yes—the springtimes needed you. Often a star
was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you
out of the distant past, or as you walked
under an open window, a violin
yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission.
 
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?

I'm not sure awakening admits of degrees...more or less a binary thing, eh? and poort daniel, the measure of enlightenment, more pr less...

t
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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terry:
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Are you saying that you are more awakened than Daniel, because he is still cycling whereas you aren't?

I'm not sure awakening admits of degrees...more or less a binary thing, eh? and poort daniel, the measure of enlightenment, more pr less...

t
I was just surprised to see the claim that there should be no cycling. I didn't phrase it well. Turning it into a comparison like that was unskillful of me, not right speech and not fair to anyone involved. 
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terry, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: 4th path = admin rights

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Ni Nurta:
It is easy to have unsolved issue all your life and from what I gather almost no one know they can eg. improve their eyesight with simple practices which even in most lazy form can over time improve eyesight dramatically over years. When I talk with people about sight literally no one thought about training eyesight or that someone could use eyes different than they and that is the reason they see better. Eyesight is easily testable. It is literally what you see and how you see. It is so ingrained in collective consciousness you cannod do anything with it that people are even reacting with aversion and fear to the idea.



   I generally work with a view of the ocean and coastline before me. I deliberately spend a lot of time looking into the distance, into medium distances, and close up, to keep my eyes exercised.

   When I was young, from age 7 or 8 until my fifties, I wore glasses because I was near-sighted. Around age 55 my vision improved, and for many years now I haven't needed glasses to read, drive, or do anything else. Optometrist told me she had never seen a case like it. And I still don't need glasses. My 40 year old son hands me a pill bottle and asks me to read the fine print for him.

   It don't mean nothing.

terry

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