One way to describe 4th path attainment is that it happens when person gets full administrative access to own nervous system.

We evolved from animals who lived short lives and who had no need or knowledge required to administer their nervous system/brains. Having preprogrammed reactions was more important. As animals evolved to mammals brains was pretty much perfected hiding interfaces to any control signals from consciousness to not overload it with things it need not know about and rather need to decide which way to go to eat an apple and not get eaten instead.

Human beings are at the level where administering complex systems is just possible. But not only there is no magical instruction manual with all the keys to be discovered inside mind but there are access restrictions put in place to prevent tampering and protect from stupidity. There is no manual how to remove these restrictions or anything really. Even buddhadharma I read more as "behave and you will figure it out somehow kid... good luck ;)" rather than any manual.

In my case I was the receiver of administrative rights, my conscious sensual experience. Other than learning by trial and error how brain works it required quite a lot of "manual" work getting through "Warranty void if removed" stickers and then fixing broken circuits because certain removed things had their functions. This fixing things of course gives the experience needed to administer anything. It is with experience and knowledge when the decision was made that I am ready to administer myself. There was no hard locks preventing access anymore so it was more like just changing brain owner to my own consciousness from consciousness being just an actor inside virtual environment created for it.

Opinions?

I tend to think more in terms of MMORPGs but I can see what you're getting at. =)

Just glad I'm not getting killed in the first dungeon anymore

How does this fit with common reports of "agencyless", "non-doing", "no free will" reports we hear from advanced practicioners?

Some say, "there's no control, and there never was". But this seems to say, "you will get full control". Isn't relinquishment of control the result of insight? Or is this just one of those paradoxes that make subtle sense in the end?

one way to describe attainment is to call it "non-attainment," as in the buddha's statement, "I truly atttained nothing from perfect, unexcelled enlightenment"...

you posit two entities, an administrator and a creator, and see the former as superior rather than derivative...your tail wags your dog...

call it an opinion, if you like...




tao te ching, trans witter bynner:


75.

Death is no threat to people
Who are not afraid to die;
But even if these offenders feared death all day,
Who should be rash enough
To act as executioner?
Nature is executioner.
When man usurps the place,
A carpenter's apprentice takes the place of the master:
And 'an apprentice hacking with the master's axe
May slice his own hand.'

I disagree with this construction.

There are no "admin rights" to be found. There is just THIS. The change isn't about getting superpowers over your mind. The change is realizing you have no control over your mind, accepting everything just as it is, and being content with what and who you happen to be, and basically sane.

I say I have full control but there is no one who has control. It is just collection of trained monkeys with ability to run commands with administrative right. What makes this arrangement workable is presenting to consciousness within perception pointers to where signals which make up this perception were processed at. For complex perceptions it makes perception trees. With these pointers it doesn't matter what part of brain pick up signal from consciousness because any will be able to refer to source and which source at the time of being asked about it will already be in half-activation state because I do not run parts of my brain continuously but: get them ready -> run activation through them -> put in state of half-activation -after some time-> sleep. It is organizational thing and that is what administrator does, administer, check if all systems are running according to agreed upon algorithm. At a time there are multiple half-activated parts of brain which can respond to requests from multiple actively running parts of the brain. Each part of brain which actively processed signal will go to half-activation and will be used by other parts of the brain to answer questions. Parameters of this system can be of course changed and depending on situation it might be more optimal to run with different parameters.

Once execution programs and all parameters are programmed (this is pretty much done with formless jhanas) there is no need to this for some time. I tested changing network configuration to arbitrary configuration which I came up and which was completely different and brain was just running it for days until I changed it back (with "sudo" =P ). This was funny experience because I copied what I thought certain person was using and it even changed my behavior. It put enough stress on my brain for it to start doing hemisphere switching, phenomenon which I do not experience with my preferred arrangement but which I do remember having in the past.

It is not about agency but about knowledge and ability to modify how brain process stuff. If you add pointers at every step of the signal way what agency can you have when everything will tell you how it was processed? Perceptions are just composite images and this include sense of self. If I activate sense of self which I can easily do it is just another process running which obey the same rules.

Consciousness is a kind of broadcast system within brain. How it works can be changed and it can even be split, multiple copies of it executed at once and it can be changed how these connects to various of parts of nervous system. Of course some configurations make more sense than others, especially since resource usage have to be always considered. Running system near its full capacity can lead to situation where no non-tired resources are available => dukkha. There is always more resources but it is not like every part of brain can replace any other part of brain and it all need to be kept in such a way to allow for some fancy post-processing of senses, experiencing synesthesia and the like.

Ideas of "agencyless", "non-doing" and "no free will" to me really seem like agency, doing and will with fancy names. The proper way out of the system is to understand this system, its rules and become this system yourself.

My assumption was that people when they practice meditation kinda grow management program and then when it is fully grown they relinquish all administrative tasks to it. It is one way to do it. I did not want to do it like that as I chose different path.

I learned how to feel my brain and manage myself with what I can feel myself.
I do not think what I did is against Buddha's teaching. Though it definitely is more yoga dhan what dharma came to be.

edit://
I am not claiming any super-powers but having knowledge of how to manage my own brain internal working.
This is why I was always so baffled why people use word "insight" but describe experiences and not skills or what they saw about their brain inner working.
To me insight is literally insight in to how my brain works so I could use this knowledge to do stuff.

I am describing system which can manage itself.
You can have community which has king and all sorts of entities to enforce law but you can have community without any laws and people just do what they come to understand on common forum to be the best approach to go forward. I am describing the latter.

It is not like part of brain forces other part of brain to change its behaviour.
Maybe I should made myself more clear about it. Though even this is possible for some simpler resources not so directly connected to consciousness. The idea behind being an enlightened administrator is however to spread consciousness as wide as possible and let parts of system pariticipate with its own management. If you do not do it that way you can do it in other ways. There is many ways things can be accomplished, even not experiencing dukkha.

edit://
Extending consciousness to more brain parts result in synesthesia.
It is this one effect which suspiciously missing from descriptions of most people who claim enlightenment and why I do not really take their advice too seriously...

In the past it was mostly exploring this new strange world for me as well and doing quests.
Over time, and actually since 3rd path it stopped feeling like this. ...which was kinda disappointing really because even at 2nd path it felt like I am still in this big adventure discovering stuff. There was quite high level of control and I felt weight of it because I tried to fix myself and that created more issues which I tried to fix, etc. but ultimately I could rely on auto-pilot. After 3rd path auto-pilot felt like it knew less than I already did and more and more I felt like be the one who should make decisions of how things should run.

By "I" I mean consciousness, general waking mind.
After 4th path this disappointment was gone because of sheer amount of stuff that mind is made ouf of. Also causing myself to experience bliss is so easy it doesn't require me to do anything.
Normally there is a kinda carrot on a stick before you and stick on your back created by subconscious mind to motivate you. This got obsolete, I can eat carrot and do not need stick because even when it comes to spending energy using it seems to use it more than just fix the issues directly. In the end I do what I do and carrot/stick never worked anyway and were there because this got somehow programmed to me, probably by generations of human beings passing their programs to the next generation instead of knowledge of how to manage own brain propely.

Perhaps give a few specific examples of what you mean and provide clear details, particularly regarding issues of timing, and thus ground the argument in something more concrete than abstract and theoretical, as well as describe any systems or aspects of experience that might not be in full admin control.

In my experience, this is almost exactly backwards. The process of taking this path has been one of subtraction, not addition. The assumptions and habits that determine behavior have been de-constructed. They have not been replaced but exposed.

aloha ni,


   Having the knowledge, insight or ability "to do stuff" has no value without knowledge of what to do. In our context, the 8fold path, or the great way.

   Rather like giving a baby the strength of an 800lb gorilla. "I want a cookie!" Power corrupts without wisdom.


terry





XIV
(e e cummings)


pity this busy monster,manunkind,

not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
your victum(death and life safely beyond)

plays with the bigness of his littleness
-electrons deify one razorblade
into a mountainrange;lenses extend

unwish through curving wherewhen until unwish
returns on its unself.
A world of made
is not a world of born-pity poor flesh

and trees,poor stars and stones,but never this
fine specimen of hypermagical

ultraomnipotence. We doctors know

a hopeless case if-listen:there’s a hell
of a good universe next door;let’s go

   Letting "the system" manage itself I can agree with. I would call that, "non-doihg" rather than emphasize doing or administering or extending or whatever.

   I'm more into anesthesia than synesthesia. We have altogether too much consciousness already. Too much input, too many branching trees. Return to the source.

   Let it administer itself, as it does anyway regardless of what you think, and everything will be fine. Try and administer it and you will fail.

terry




tao te ching, trans witter bynner


49

A sound man's heart is not shut within itself
But is open to other people's hearts:
I find good people good,
And I find bad people good
If l am good enough;
I trust men of their word,
And I trust liars
If I am true enough;
I feel the heart-beats of others
Above my own
If I am enough of a father,
Enough of a son.




67


Everyone says that my way of life is the way of a simpleton.
Being largely the way of a simpleton is what makes it worth while.
If it were not the way of a simpleton
It would long ago have been worthless,
These possessions of a simpleton being the three I
choose
And cherish:
To care,
To be fair,
To be humble.
When a man cares he is unafraid
When he is fair he leaves enough for others,
When he is humble he can grow;
Whereas if, like men of today, he be bold without caring,
Self-indulgent without sharing,
Self-important without shame,
He is dead.
The invincible shield
Of caring
Is a weapon from the sky
Against being dead.



71

A man who knows how little he knows is well,
A man who knows how much he knows is sick.
If, when you see the symptoms, you can tell,
Your cure is quick.
A sound man knows that sickness makes him sick
And before he catches it his cure is quick.

Most basic example and pretty much the only thing I use this skill for nowadays would be the dealing any form of pain which is experienced part part of nervous system. It is always localized and its processing runs with some rate or frequency like a set of rivers from one place to another through the place which is generating pain. By isolating which places exactly experience pain it is possible to route these signals through different places in nervous system (typically very close). This requires first opening new channels by feeling them and then in the right moment forcing signals to not go to affected painful place but to go through the new pathways. This causes pain to immediately stop and activity is felt in these new pathways. There is always pleasure experienced in both the new pathways and a kind of pleasure of rest in the previously hurting place. It even works for physical discomfort and pain. Some stronger physical pains are however hard to eliminate completely. Though it generates then so much pleasure that when I remember any instance of such strong pain like kidney stones all I really remember how pleasant the experience was and how despite the pleasure I was having cold shivers and was affraid something terribly wrong is happening which at the time I did not know what it was.

Normally I use it when I notice I am getting irritated by something or bored. Like on n-th hour of meetings or transit I would realize I am bored and then just localize the place in mind which generates this experience of boredom and route energy which it feeds on to somewhere directly pleasant. This would immediately cause me to experience pleasure and when situation ends even a kind of missing it... though this missing is one mind action away of being replaced by pleasure. When dealt with that way the same set of situations will not require it for months, even years os the next boring meeting I will experience pleasure righ away and the next time it ends also. Though the strenght of this persistence depends on strength of control signals.

Other example is skill of suppressing experience completely, what I think is cessation of experience. This is more on-demand action if not set up in such a way to be persistent by setting part of mind to send such suppression signals to some place continuously like I did for example with my whole body. There is threshold after which I experience touch and its strength is normal except it fades away quickly if not changing. I can also directly apply this kind of signal to experience to make it fade away even quicker. I do not experience my body like I did in the past because mostly there is nothing changing and unchanging touch perceptions fade away. It is not even nothingness but what I could only describe as Nibbana.

Another example would be execution of more parts of the brain to process something at once instead one after the other. When I do this for whole perception then each moment more than one set of typically used pathways are used at once and this causes colors pop up much more and flat images not only become three dimensional but I feel literally in the place which I see. I even experience everything other sense so smell of places I see, sun on my skin or coldness if watching cold place, wind, scent of flowers, etc. Video of cooking food smells like it was cooked really in front of me. In hearing this causes immediately sound become much more bassy, like X-Tra BASS was enabled and immersion. This however makes me tired rather quick. Few hours of such fun and I feel completely drained. The how tired I am depends on how much parts of brain I use and how much there are for each function. It is pretty much like A&P which can be done at will and doing it for too long will have similar side effects. Negative effects of abusing brain in this way are however just a matter of using tired parts of brain or not and with suppressing experiences (cessation) it is easy to get rest. I normally almost do not experience any cycles of insight. Any DN creeping in after abusing my brain I just tweak until it feels all pleasant even if energy is lower for a while.

Sensual perception (or rather anything really) generally run in moments. Normally to not mix up signals in brain they are being run separarte for everything from other signals. Even parts of visual image get their details in moments, separate brain firings. This can be noticed when trying to look at something before processing of it has completed of shifting exact moment visual consciousness pulls information from brain about image. For example doing it early will reveal that unfinished image with mostly outlines being processed and no fine texture details. Other example would be that when something moves eg. eyes and there is new unprocessed previously object there is distinct wait period in actually seeing it (visual consciousness waits for visual cortex to finish processing the image) but if visual consciousness is rushed to pull information earlier then partially processed image will be seen eg. with lower resolution texture and errors on outlines. To make things more interesting I activate other sense modality consciousnesses along sight ant this causes them to pull other senses to experience what I see on other senses. It also causes images I see to change, especially colors. I spent quite a lot of time investigating how this works. It is all about rhythm inside the brain.

Also because it is all about rhythm it makes it possible to accomplish things like no perception of duality via different means, either by shutting down parts of brain which generate them or simply changing moment consciousness probe brain to get perception of it. If this moment is shifted by a lot is is possible to not experience something which is actually running because its perception expired or not even created. I tested this way of accomplishing non-duality also. I am also quite meticulous when it comes to my brain and check regularly what activity I can feel what perceptions it generates. Not so much to get real non-duality because I do not really care for if it but I like for any thing which runs to spread its activity and use for generating more detailed sensual perception. I do not use processes of duality and agent because I do not find any use for them and they are energy intensive and there seems to be limited energy budget for brain and parts of brain get tired quickly. I'd rather run something which improves visual or musical perception than sense of self. Rhythm also provides another method of dealing with pain by shifting moments when things are received from hurting place but generally this is worse method because messing with rhythms in brain can cause rather unpleasant side effects and then it takes quite a lof of time to get rhythms in working order. I do from time to time test what are possibilities there eg. changing phases of periods and some effects are interesting though I do not consider myself an expert in this topic and most actions I do even if they modify rhythms are higher level (meaning more abstracted in to mind states eg. jhanas or this cessation signal which relies heavilty on phase).

Thing I usually do not touch are to do with survival and which I deem unsafe to play with like heart beat and circulatory system. I tread here much more carefully than elsewhere. With my desire to break seals I did probably remove few of them here also but I never truly tested it by eg. trying to send full blown cessation signals. I can however send them because when I do it a little I do get rather interesting response from it and not experience that mind barriers caused me to feel. Other than that I do not feel any issues trying peeking and poking anywhere else because most systems when messed with won't kill me immediately.

Most of these things I picked up from other ways of doing these things by observing how these meditation methods made me feel, then forcing myself to feel this way and then isolated the effect in question and tested it eparately. Some times deliberately refusing comfortable conditions to get source of issues to solve. Literally ascetic practices though not as hardcore as Buddha did because I am more insterrested in precission than power. Normal life today does not have any serious issues with suffering and I would even say it is at times too comfortable which is bad for practice.

I am not sure if that sounds to you abstract or something concrete. Is this something you recognize?

My assumption all this rhytm stuff should be pretty aligned with contemporary dharma even if not often discussed. Routing signals in brain I find no mention of so I am not sure if the perception which allows this is too often developed. I also did not find informations about these barriers I mentioned. These have very specific aversive and repulsive feel to them and to get any clarity that allow signals routing they had to be removed. I used visualization of what I call vajra taste like it was a sand paper to remove them which caused me to feel this part of brain on which I worked to feel first sore and then I felt real physical pain in there. So my method of getting clarity was rather drastic. Not even sure if that should ever be recommended to anyone. I assume however that since it requires ability to visualize vajra objects it is not something someone below required level to handle it would even be able to do. Unfortunately describing what vajra taste would be impossible. It is the same taste as Vajra Samadhi have though. And with this abstract concept I will end this post.

Administering can do itself with non-doing. This is how I mostly administer.
What boss would I be if I had to everything all the time =P


To run synesthesia without running in to overloading my brain I have to pretty much shut down everything else otherwise it is definitely too much and if used incorrectly will cause nasty side effects.
It is good practice though and feels very pleasant. I would rate it at 10-200 schmeckels depending on strength. From things not requiring patricipation of women in the experience only Vajra Samadhi is more pleasant at 500 schmeckels. I mention it since you mention source.


Of course I will fail.
That is the whole purpose of doing it manually.
Then I have to fix stuff... so much fun

edit://

You need to know what to do to get this level of control. It is not about power but precission really.
Of course I cannot do things I do not know how to do and I bet there are many things I do not know which are possiblle.

Meditation with methods can be used to get some effects and then these effects can be studied to get insight about how they work. That is pretty much the drill.

Terry,

Do you have a reference for this? Is it from the Pali canon? 

I tried to look it up and found that Huang Po made the statement that Buddha said it, but there was no reference as to Huang Po's source.


Thanks

Looks like this is a Zen thing https://www.dailyzen.com/journal/zen-teachings-of-huang-po
Different traditions and people can have completely different view about what Buddha teachings were about. Zen to me seems to draw more from China's own philosophy than Buddhism.

If you go a little to the left to India and read what Yogis think about Buddhism it is completely different story. To them Gautama Buddha was first and foremost very advanced and highly realized Yogi and his attainment was very technical rather than "it happens on its own" with all the things like chakras (really energy thus signals, exactly what I am referring to) being fully developed.

In the middle eg. in Burma you have traditions like Theravada which are still somewhat technically oriented but started to forget that in India practice was heavily chakra/technically oriented but not yet fully in to "do nothing" style of practice.

Personally I like Zen a lot. It gives completely different feel to Buddhism and is something good to study (things like koans, philosophy) even when doing more technical energy practices. Maybe even especially when doing them because doing nothing is very beneficial to sorting all the issues and agitation caused by working with energies and brings peace. It is however less viable for discussion because how much can you talk about about doing nothing and that being a great mind state to be in?

It is possible to set barriers made with aversion on sense of self (or any part of nervous system) and this will cause it impossible for these parts of the brain to be used. It will also make them seem repulsive and unbearable. Those are the same barriers which are all over the nervous system which removal is needed for "admin rights".

Where does this hardcore physicalism come from ?

What has made you so convinced that there is a one-one causal relation, a bijection, if you will, between material structures (neurons) and conscious experience ???

I am in touch with neurophysiologists who have written books about the subject and award winning philosophers of quantum physics. They usually consider that there has never been a good argument made to prove that conscious experience emerges from ontologically more primal entities called "neurons", "atoms" or "molecules". 

This is not an attack You've never answered me, perhaps I was not asking in the right way, but I'm truly curious, where your conviction comes from.

Like Olivier, I've always wondered about the underpinnings of your neurological-like descriptions and assumptions about your practice, Ni Nurta. To be honest, they make no sense to me at all.

Please elaborate.

nonduality and perception do not intersect

   nothing I do is worth a schmeckel...

in the form I gave it, huang po, but the sentiment is well known from the diamond sutra, retweeted endlessly throughout zen literature... 

did the buddha actually say any such thing historically? probably not, it is a typical mahayana invention designed to crack the hard shell of attachment to literature...




from VIII


“What do you think, Subhuti? Did the Tathagata realize any such
dharma as ‘unexcelled, perfect enlightenment’? And does the
Tathagata teach any such dharma?”
The venerable Subhuti thereupon answered, “Bhagavan, as I
understand the meaning of what the Buddha says, the Tathagata
did not realize any such dharma as ‘unexcelled, perfect
enlightenment.’ Nor does the Tathagata teach such a dharma.
And why? Because this dharma realized and taught by the
Tathagata is incomprehensible and inexpressible and neither a
dharma nor no dharma. And why? Because sages arise from
what is uncreated.”




from XVII


“What do you think, Subhuti? When the Tathagata was with
Dipankara Tathagata, did he realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment?”
To this the venerable Subhuti answered, “Bhagavan, as I
understand the meaning of what the Tathagata has taught, when
the Tathagata was with Dipankara Tathagata, the Arhan, the
Fully-Enlightened One, he did not realize any such dharma as
unexcelled, perfect enlightenment.”
And to this the Buddha replied, “So it is, Subhuti. So it is."

the idea of "attaining nothing" is both a positive and negative goal, leading one beyond existence and non-existence...

did the buddha actually say any such thing historically? probably not, it is a typical mahayana invention designed to crack the hard shell of attachment to literature...






pali want a cracker?

Do I really come off as someone who is hardcore materialist?

I try not to go too deep about things like super-mundane experiences as I consider them against DhO homepage which directly states : pragmatism over dogmatism: what works is key, with works generally meaning the stages of insight, the stages of enlightenment, states of deep concentration, freedom from suffering in what ways are possible, the criteria for various attainments, actual discussion of one's experience and the results of practice, etc.

The issues described by people, whole path of insight, non-dual perception, etc. can all be explained within model of nervous system development.
I think it is more complicated than mind being just spiritual or physical in nature because it is both.
The lower you go the more distinction between physical and spiritual starts to get fuzzy until it disappears, especially from perspective of experience.

I do not however think there is ever any need to go to spiritual aspect of reality to describe anything related to pragmatic side of dharma and frankly relying on spiritual explanations is what I call "ignorance" because it leads people to leave blank pages in their own documentation.


Simple: this is not my conviction. It is my preference of pragmatism that makes me talk about brain and everything from its perspective.

When it comes to spiritual part of universe in my working model 4th person has direct access to it. It is in form of Vajra Samadhi which is the best experience for any part of the nervous system that is possible. This equality that admin/arhat must have access to it was impled by my response to Daniel about removing barriers using Vajra tools. I do not use subpar channels to my body because I am the administrator.

zen literature is the most voluminous of all spiritual traditions, in point of fact...

surprising for a tradition founded by bodhidharma on the principle of "no dependence on words and letters"...endless comment on "no comment"..."the buddha spoke for forty-nine years and in all that time not a single word was said"...

as was anciently said of lao tzu, "he told us that 'those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak' and he said it in a book of ten thousand characters"...


t




from "the way of chuang tzu" trans merton:



WHOLENESS

"How does the true man of Tao
Walk through walls without obstruction,
Stand in fire without being burnt?"
Not because of cunning
Or daring;
Not because he has learned,
But because he has unlearned.
All that is limited by form, semblance, sound, color,
Is called object.
Among them all, man alone
Is more than an object.
Though, like objects, he has form and semblance,
He is not limited to form. He is more.
He can attain to formlessness.
When he is beyond form and semblance,
Beyond "this" and "that,"
Where is the comparison
With another object?
Where is the conflict?
What can stand in his way?
He will rest in his eternal place
Which is no-place.
He will be hidden
In his own unfathomable secret.
His nature sinks to its root
In the One.
His vitality, his power
Hide in secret Tao.
When he is all one,
There is no flaw in him
By which a wedge can enter.
So a drunken man, falling
Out of a wagon,
Is bruised but not destroyed.
His bones are like the bones of other men,
But his fall is different.
His spirit is entire. He is not aware
Of getting into a wagon
Or falling out of one.
Life and death are nothing to him.
He knows no alarm, he meets obstacles
Without thought, without care,
Takes them without knowing they are there.
If there is such security in wine,
How much more in Tao.
The wise man is hidden in Tao.

I said it before: different path
I am a Buddha

The right question to ask is: does Arhat still need sense door and abilities it provides.
I would say yes, you say no, we disagree and that is that.

yo ni,

   
   The problem with using "the brain" and "the nervous system" as spiritual metaphors is that there is an actual brain and an actual nervous system, and these are not analgous to what you are talking about, which smells more of cybernetics and systems theory, artificial intelligence and machine logic. 

   Materialism re-packaged as pragmatism. The soulless god of ai.

   I have to admire your originality and the sincerity of the attempt, though. I read your posts with interest.


terry

Non dependence on words and letter for me sounds like he depended on compiled binaries

Probably that is why Zen is really one of these traditions where the stuff is right there up for grabs. That is also why I like Zen texts.

edit://
My approach is to use words and texts to descreibe how to build a compiler

william blake said: "A fool who would persist in his folly will become wise."

the essence of meditation...

my approach is to deconstruct compilations...


if you meet anyone with any semblance of the buddha at all, KILL HIM... ditto arhats, patriarchs and your parents, especially yo mama...(and blame rinzai)...

I describe what I see, directly. It might look strange but no one guaranteed nervous system will look nice with symetrical shapes... wait, wait, I was actually promised nice glowing shapes from Hindi people. Now I want my money back XD

Ah, no it was "energetic system" and not nervous system...
Nervous system is too nervous to have time to care for looking nice

deconstructing anything manually gets boring after five minutes tops and it is better to spend few years writing decompilator software which creates nice ansi c style code

I do not provide binaries or source code to anyone except selected "friends", for public I only publish comments
though most of is is all written in brain-python so it need python interpreter installed and I write only docstrings to describe what function does what and not how it was implemented because code itself is self explanatory and the implementation I change on the fly going in cycles from having code analyzer tool satisfied to having flying spagetti monster satisfied and back

rest is in assembler, spirituality related stuff, these are short subroutines which I often forget even exist because I normally use python bindings. when I want to change implementation I always need to write them from scratch because it is impossible to understand my program logic from code as it would require me to analyze what all registers and values on stack were supposed to be at any given moment

I also tried already made libraries to use in my program. these were written in something that feelt like java and they had its typical issues: slow loading times, poor performance, used too much of my resources for the task at hand and at the same time could not allocate all of available resources and buddha christ they all had a lot of null pointer exceptions

and this post was FF% serious
this is exactly how reality of brain developer looks like... and that is why Buddhas tell you to kill them XD

ps. Zen is in this equation taking a walk in a park. literally

The mystery deepens...

Buddha, woulda, coulda, shoulda

   If you were cut in half and both halves continue to wiggle, which part contains the buddha nature?

   I find material deconstructs itself...anything constructed - anything conditioned - arises and passes away..."the finest clothes turn to rags" (yi jing)...

   robots run programs...

   e e cummings: "a world of made is not a world of born"...william blake: "made are tools and born are hands/ ev'ry farmer understands"...

terry




tao te ching, trans feng


Fifty-one

All things arise from Tao.
They are nourished by Virtue.
They are formed from matter.
They are shaped by environment.
Thus the ten thousand things all respect Tao and honor Virtue.
Respect of Tao and honor of Virtue are not demanded,
But they are in the nature of things.

Therefore all things arise from Tao.
By Virtue they are nourished,
Developed, cared for,
Sheltered, comforted,
Grown, and protected.
Creating without claiming,
Doing without taking credit,
Guiding without interfering,
This is Primal Virtue.

your mind is so great it contains the whole universe and more...chiliocosms...

your brain is two scoops of pink slime...

(and no different from any other two scoops of pink slime)

pretty as the body/mind may appear to be, on the inside (on autopsy, on analysis) it's all just gross sights, sounds, textures, smells and tastes...

stick to primal virtue...



(what if we haven't been born yet, and this matrix-like virtual space is really the womb, in which we are dreaming we are living a life?)


t




“Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was myself. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.”

~chuang-tzu

Yes, you kindda sound like a hardcore/funky materialist to me.

The notion that the brain is a kind of computer is silly. Not that i'm a big fan of Varela, but have you read some of his stuff ? He's one pf the main people in cognitive neurosciences and biology of the previous decades so you ought to know a bit about him. I'm not well versed in his theories but for instance, i hope i remember the title correctly, he has an article about "Whence perceptual meaning?" which makes serious dents in previous symbolic-cognitivism as well as cybernetics and emergentist views of cognition... And that's from someone who's a big guy WITHIN the general framework of cognitive sciences/neurobiology...

And i don't feel like you answered my question or chris's.

I was following instructions ("investigate all sensations") and one of things this investigation inevitably led me to was my body's nervous system. It is just one one of the things that needed to be investigated but this one seems most relevant from the point of view of the task at hand and the most interresting to talk about. It also literally runs almost everything and has all the interresting interfaces that allow direct access elsewhere.

Between consciousness and nervous system there are barriers which need to be removed to continue meaningful investigations. It is removal of all these barriers that what I consider as 4th path.

But yeah, there doesn't seem to be any point in being a silent buddha XD

What is it like to feel neurons ?

guys, guys, all this talk about violence against buddhas and yo mama! The advice to kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road has no scriptural authority, but is anecdotal/patriarchal lore in the Chan/Zen lineage attributed to Bodhidharma, the “Western barbarian” who is said to have brought the Dharma lineage from India to China, and based it on

A special transmission outside the scriptures,
Not depending on words and letters;
Directly pointing to the mind
Seeing into one’s true nature and attaining Buddhahood.

We therefore are clearly in error here, taking a special-transmission outside-the-scriptures fortune cookie poem not depending on words or letters so literally as to endanger someone's mama, much less buddhas, arhats, patriarchs, and male parents. Pretty soon we would be killing everyone we meet on the road, just in case they might be wise.

I did kill someone i thought was a Buddha on the road once, during my Zen phase. It turned out he was just an anagami, and he has not been seen around here since. Meanwhile, I am wanted for murder and there is a warrant out for my arrest in the State of Delusion. I fought the Law, and the Law won.

I will also, for this shitty karma, be serving time in hell until all sentient beings are saved, at which time the boddhisattva I killed on the road will come save my sorry ass.
 
I'm also concerned in practical, immediate terms that with all this buddha-killing talk parading as instructions, ni nurta may mis-program his operating system and kill himself. This would be a tragedy for nervous sytems everywhere, who are counting on him to redeem the pink useless mass of brain matter by destroying the abyss between it and consciousness, or something like that.

On the other hand, even if we get cut in half, may we all attain enough Buddhahood to have at least one of the halves get killed on the road some day ourselves.

love, tim

It sounds like you are using nervous system anatomy as a metaphor for subtle expereniences?

For example, "barriers to remove" could also be described as somatic knots/holdings in the body and psychological knots/confusions in the mind? And the kind of blurry in between experiences of having turbulent emotional centers in the body (traditionally called chakras)? Is that fair to say?




 

Shargrol, are you handing Ni Nurta a lifeline?

(Well, truth be told... I'm hoping to eventually convey that symbolic use of neurology metaphors is more confusing that describing things in terms of lived experiences of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts... that's my master plan. I mean, we've both had those wierd experiences of being microscopically aware of our body, having parts of our body almost seeming sentient, and having the chakras regions of the body being activated and all that psycho-emotional wierd stuff that happens. It's really confusing at the time... so I think I can relate to Ni Nurta's experience right now, but who knows where this will go? Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, okay?) 

So the consensus is to never describe anything technical so that everyone always have to go through everything themselves and use the same general concepts where each can match to mutlple things. And if any poor soul find these concepts they could always be able to refer to and bother the source and not the person who invented them.

If that is the consensus then there must be good reasons for that.

And now excuse me because I am trying to come up and compile experience program worth 499 schmeckles out of Vajra Samadhi worth 500 schmeckles by "improving" it

This topic can be closed.

http://www.biolinguagem.com/ling_cog_cult/varela_1997_whence_perceptual_meaning.pdf

This might help establishing common ground if you want to get technical...

Notice, p. 243, that the framework you seem to be using (correlation between percepts and single neurons) is here considered as the most extreme form of cognitivism, a general research/conceptual framework which is described in the previous page and criticized in the subsequent ones.

The discussion is above my paygrade, but as I'm working in compiling Daniel's post, I share his post (January 2014) I found today, that may well address the topic.

Ironically, this seems to originally have been an answer to Ni Nurta !

Yep! No ill-will on my behalf, though

A brilliant quote.

Interestingly (for the intellectually inclined), this is precisely the difference between "intentional consciousness" (subject-here-knows-object-there, objective knowledge) and "impressional consciousness" (impressions in the phenomenological jargon are not the mental copies but the primary self-knowing sensations themselves - non-objective knowledge) which phenomenologists such as Husserl in his book Lessons for a phenomenology of intimate time consciousness, were indeed aware of (;)), and there has been a debate ever since as to which one was more primary.

Michel Henry has correctly figured out that this impressional awareness was the true nature of reality (he calls it : the essence of manifestation) and gives it the very straightforward name of : Life. He has also made a convincing case that this was precisely what the christian revelation is about. 

However, no phenomenologists (in the sense of the school of thought...) to my knowledge had given such clear-cut and straightforward explanations as Ingram in posts such as this, of what Henry calls : the truth of Life.

Too cool.

lifelines r us

(sometimes we have insights that are absolutely clear and unutterably comprehensive, but as soon as we try to communicate them, the bubble pops and all that clarity dissolves...the artist persists in trying against all obstacles - and the inherent impossibilty - to communicate insights anyway, anyhow; pathetic but transformative, as a butterfly struggling with a cocoon inspires us to transform our own lives, struggle with our own cocoons...as rumi says, judge a moth by his candle...the candle at least should not be covered by a bushel basket...everyone is a buddha, and it takes courage to entertain the possibility and express it, tantamount to saying, "kill me if you can"...)

Thanks for posting this Daniel's quote
It is a good one
I rememeber refering back to it heavily at the time trying to understand it correctly.

Recently all I get from this forum is chance to do morality training. Exactly to train myself at not racting to ill will.

I think the Dharma is a lifeline. The Buddha, the Dharma, and the sangha, lifelines all.

Ni, morality, yes, the first and last practice. 

keep your sense of humor, amigo.

I always assumed that the first and last practice is pooping to some some kind of container instead of in our pants...

Don't take it personally ni.

From my perspective, i don't understand why you refuse to engage in any meaningful, open discussion about the language/premises you're operating from. 

What you seem to perceive as ill will emnating from us is probably just ways through which we are trying to get you to engage.

Peace.

and we are the sangha
the buddha
and the dharma

lifelines r us

THE IMPOSSIBLE DREAM
(from "man of la mancha")

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow,
To run where the brave dare not go.
To right the unrightable wrong,
To love pure and chaste from afar,
To try when your arms are too weary,
To reach the unreachable star.
This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.
To fight for the right
Without question or pause,
To be willing to march
Into hell for a heavenly cause.
(**)To be willing to give when there's no more to give (**)
(***)To be willing to die so that honor and justice may live (***)
And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will be peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.
And the world will be better for this,
That one man scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage.
To fight the unbeatable foe.
To reach the unreachable star.

Songwriters: Leigh Mitch / Darion Joseph

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbgTUwUP-ew

Sorry, Olivier, I do not think I am the kind of person who can communicate well with others.
I take "review"s way too seriously and no one shares my sense of humor in this regard.

I will remain silent.

it's always wise to remain silent...

only fools, crazies and lovers rush in where the wise fear to tread...

and us kids, who all know how to dance and sing, and never fear to demonstrate....


have you ever considered writing poetry? 


t




"I would not feel so all alone/
everybody must get stoned"

~bob dylan

   Recently you started a thread in which you declared you were a buddha. What did you expect, adulation?

   Two points:

1) When the buddha realized he was Enlightened, he went back to the group he had been practicing with and told them he had the answers. They wouldn't listen to him because he wasn't doing the practices as they were, as before. They criticized him for his unfaithfulness and inconsistency, and held it a disgrace. Through consistency, luminosity and clarity of insight, he won a following, and preached the dharma for 49 years.

2) When the buddha first considered the dharma, he thought to himself that maybe he would stay silent and not preach, because "the truth is subtle and hard to know." This was the first hesitation, the second being whether to admit women to the sangha. 

   If you feel you have been silenced by the effectiveness of the crtiticism, well then, I understand. Though you have been well enough received, and given a hearing, and criticism has not been overt. The group here is a buddhist one trying to keep its basic focus on meditation. The essential question is...drumroll please...

How does all this relate to (buddhist) meditation? As we assume it does, or you would not been telling us all this.

   The quintessential spiritual virtue is courage. The highest courage is that of the drunk so deep in wine that the curb can serve as a pillow, as we look up at the impossible stars.

   Of course, silence speaks for itself.

terry

My friend,

It doesn't have to be perfect to still be communication - but even bad communication can't happen if the parties withdraw !

The way i see it, either we're full of shit, or you are, or both - unlike our respective pants which are remarkably unsoiled - and perhaps learning can happen on ours, or yours, or both sides.

How often do you get to talk to people who have serious backgrounds in hard sciences, pragmatic meditation, philosophy, some or many realizations, and all that, who can question your models/understandings and either debunk what should be debunked or consolidate what could use a bit of trimming ? And do all that without pooping their pants ?

Anyways. All the best, and no hard feelings i hope. 

When you train sight you need to know what you are staring at.
Then you stare until you see the thing you were supposed to see.
Then you verify.
Rinse and repeat.
This is called meditation, or otherwise known as neuron network training.

When I look for inspiration for my practice I look for descriptions of sights.
The person who invented them and his life story does not interrest me at all.

The premise is simple, either you have ability to stop pain or not.

Terms used by me are not understandable because those are my terms. People have these. At least anyone who actually manage to do anything will inevitably end up inventing few strange sounding terms. This should not matter.

What matters is that in case there is pain that the enlightened person should understand its nature and be able to stop it.
Rest is philosophy, dogma and running in circles.

You could be sentient robot and if you were capable of experiencing pain I would use exactly the same criteria to rate if you are enlightened:
1. do you know your basic mind architecture
2. can modify it with your will
3. can you disable your pain
4. you consider yourself knowledgeable enough to allow yourself uncoditional full access in case there is any issue

That is my model and that is how I rated my paths.
And do I know everything about my brain or reality I live in?
Hell no! The knowledge I do have is an asset in body shangha and allows me to have better access because I do not disallow myself from it.
And as for this shangha I need to do review of my strategies because signals I used cause the kind of reactions that should not happen.
People with fancy buttons can always remove me if they consider my teaching methods as unskillful.

ps. "paths" should be done in order.
Though I guess anyone who experienced "Dark Night of the Soul" knows how giving too much access to your their nervous system can end so it won't be that easy. Body is not stupid...
ps2. What hard feelings?

   Yet it is the buddha, the christ, who is the Word (Logos), not the de-scriptions. Give the buddha his due, he is our refuge, along with the dharma and the sangha. 

   The perfect human, the great one, is the whole of human society. When the yi jing says, "it furthers one to see the great man," what is meant is that we aspire to see the interests of humanity and indeed the entire web of life as one whole, the function of our species (as that of all sentient life) being to make the world a better place to live (obviously).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
~john 12:24

   Wysiwyg.


terry



kjv, nt, matt.

21And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

22For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

24And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

26And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

29But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

30And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

33And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

   Ah, that makes your view more explicit: your model of enlightenment assumes that we are equivalent to sentient robots. 

   As thus I am made of tin, tell me great wizard (but please make it brief) how may I come by a heart?

   My other question: what if on the way to conquering pain I decided it was unconquerable - because those I love have it and cannot give it up - and decided to embrace it instead? And then found pain, like demons, just another sensation wanting to be loved and understood?



   I've been wanting to write about the difference between suffering, pain and the unsatisfactoriness signified by the idea of dukkha. 

   Pain is a physical sensation related to the body only. It is relatively insiginificant. You can being laying on the ground with your arms and legs torn off, life hanging by a thread, and your lover can still break your heart and make your pain feel like nothing.

   In the west we have inherited, in a significantly degraded form, the thinking of the ancient greeks, which at the time was in contact with and reflected the enlightened thought of asia, afrtica and india as well. Our idea of suffering carries some freight and doesn't translate well into buddhist ideas.

   Dukkha refers to karmic debt, the compensatory dissatisfaction that underlies every satisfaction. Whereas suffering actually refers directly to passion as the opposite of action. To suffer means to endure, to put up with, as in "suffer the little children to come unto to me." To act means to enforce your will, to be passive is to be done to or acted upon. Admonished, ordered, instructed, and so forth, all the language games of dominance.

   Suffering in aristotle is pathein, the same root as pathos, and root of english words like "pathetic" and "sympathy," and also "passion" and "passive." Our actions reflect our desires through willful striving. Our passions are unacted, stifled, suffered; willed non-striving, self control.

   It is assumed by the ancient greeks that nobody likes being told what to do, and thus "suffering" acquired the meaning of unpleasantness. In fact it is the ideal feminine virtue of sweetness, willingness, kindness, gentleness, compassion, acceptance, nurturing, forebearance, love and submission. Action implies the masculine virtues of leading, guiding, teaching, inspiring, fecundating. Greek homophilia saw the masculine virtues as superior and desirable, and we have been suffering from that orthodoxy ever since. (If it weren't for sexist homophilia incubated as mysogyny clinton would be president and 100,000 americans - and their fragile democracy - would still be alive.)

terry





abstract of an article by herman paret called "reasonable pathos":



The subject producing discourse, culture, and society is a being of passions. His will to impart the truth, his intention to communicate, and his beliefs and convictions are motivated by the passion for knowledge, and the drive to live in a community, to create beauty, and to transform nature into an inhabitable environment. The subjective pathos is responsible for an opacity that makes intersubjective relations worth experiencing and discourse worth interpreting. Passion — theoretical, practical, aesthetic — “swells the sails of the vessel, without which we could not go on” Voltaire wrote. The Romantics will confer the aura of creation and genius upon the man of passion. And yet pathos, in its relation of tension to logos, has always come out second best — our intellectual tradition quasi-automatically identifies pathos with the pathetic and the pathological. It is an age-old story: passion for the Greeks is frenzy, morbidity, agitation; according to Zenon, it is ‘contrary to nature’ and is immediately situated in a medical framework. Pathein has the connotations of pain and misfortune, sorrow and sickness. Pathos predicates death, madness, obscurity, chaos, disharmony, the underworld, variability, particularity, and the indistinct, while the field of logos is that of reason, life, clarity, the cosmos, harmony, the celestial, universality, regularity, distinctness. All the classics of the history of philosophy include a reflection on the theme of passion, but this is always marginal to the main thrust of these works. Aristotle’s Rhetoric, Descartes’ ThePassions of the Soul, and Kant’s Anthropology from a Pragmatic Point of View are examples of this marginality. Other authors situate their theory of the passions within an all-encompassing synthesis, like Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica or David Hume in his Treatiseon Human Nature. One could say that the marginalization of passions as a subject of theoretical reflection in philosophy and the social sciences, and the expulsion of the passions into the domains of artistic creativity and interpersonal intimacy, are two complementary gestures. This precariousness of thinking about passions has been observed quite often, and it is only a short time ago that the passions have been reintegrated into philosophical anthropology1, structural semiotics2, and argumentation theory3. ‘Affective psychology’, a strand of thought that was very much alive during the 1920’s (but since then forgotten) has only recently been rediscovered, and plenty of valuable lessons can be drawn from it.

You go from descriptions to exactly the thing using unregistered hacks.
Logos is actually set of all souls in 11 dimensional space. Last time I checked it was there like always, not a lot going on really...
My personal choice for a spiritual reference is every experience (Vajra Samadhi), obviously.
And as for Budha, very blue. Slightly in to violet but actually not monochrome violet but he had red soul and the blueness was from the meditation practice he did. He couldn't make himself more red so he made himself very blue. Everyone has their kinks I guess. (ofc. joking, it was to create "reference")
Christ - ...ekhm... very convoluted, with putrid colour, lots of breaks, I think it is a virus. It has a lot of knowledge encoded but it is also very dangerous. One of the things that should be removed from people as it does not remove their suffering, just covers it with dust created by him devouring their soul energy.

This is at least what my vajra eyes presented me when I investigeted these two individuals.
Buddha I like. I generally like India, they have fascinating energy and people with nice colors.

ps. To kill off virus you need to starve it.

I'm wondering something. The book Kundalini Vidya: The Science of Spiritual Transformation by Joan Shivarpita Harrigan mentions occult or elemental methods of stimulating brain center activity, which leads to non-ordinary states and special powers. It is seen as a non-spiritual practice. However, there are also overlaps with spiritual practices that accomplish the same effect. According to the book, there are yogic texts that "describe methods for focusing on chakra petals, which correspond to the petals of Sahasrara (brain centers), in order to utilize the abilities they provide so the seeker can more efficiently complete their dharmic duty" (p. 68). Those practices are group practices designed to aid the whole group, but with intense practice, individuals can gain dala activation as a side-effect from it. In some cases, divine interference can cause this to happen, the author says. Furthermore, brain center openings happen spontaneously as a natural side effect of the Kundalini rising, especially "deflected risings" where Kundalini doesn't go through the Makara point (if I understand this correctly, it means that one doesn't follow the progress of insight - no "real" A&P and no cessation). Occult practices therefore tend to seek deflected arisings, to harvest brain center openings. If I understand the author correctly, there isn't anything wrong with the brain openings per se, but harvesting them on purpose is risky business. She says "The spiritual traditions caution against cultivating brain center capacities (siddhis) because they can cause depletion to the vital energy, distraction to the mind, and temptation to go to the dark side (ego inflation, pride, greed, ambition, and selfish misuse of the powers). This admonition is counter balanced by the occult traditions' fascination with, admiration of, and efforts to acquire the paranormal abilities that result from harvesting the brain centers. The debate between these two perspectives (the spiritual and the occult) has been ongoing throughout the ages, with the spiritual traditions emphasizing the necessity to go beyond all phenomena, even subtle ones, to merge in the One, and the occult traditions praising the usefulness in the world of increased talent, genius, and special skills - sometimes for compelling humanitarian reasons."

Does this ring a bell? From your many very interesting accounts of your practice, it seems to me like you are actually harvesting brain center openings. Would you agree?

If so: Later in the book the author says that "Stimulation of the Sankhini nadi can yield brain center openings and thereby give special talents, but at the price of the dissipation of vaju vitality. When Sankhini is open and activated, amrit nectar pours down from the soma moon in the subtle brain system, and the nectar is burned" (p. 85). The Sankhini nadi is supposedly the stem and pericarp of the thousand-petal lotus, Sahasrara, which in the physical body means the brain function. If I understand it correctly, dissipation of vaju vitality and burning of nectar basically mean that you fry yourself. I'm not entirely sure what is meant, though, and I have no way of verifying it. I guess I'm wondering is... are you sure you're not frying yourself? Should I be worried? I don't know enough about this to tell whether or not the warnings are valid. You seem to know what you are doing and you seem to be doing fine morally. Maybe the caution is excaggerated, I really don't know. Just... please be careful! 

Or: Would you say that what you are doing is more in line with the yogic texts for group practice that have this side effect? I'm not sure if that would mean that it's safer or if it's still risky business. 

Is this a context that you are familiar with? 

    Viruses are like programs, they don't eat, they replicate. Code coding code.

    Agree about buddha and christ. Talk about words carrying freight! Buddha: red to blue and back again. Christ: dust to dust. Red and blue are one thing, dusts are dangerous. But after all gotama and jesus are individuals, the buddha and the christ are everyone. Investigate everyone with your vajra eye.

   I never register my hacks. My left hack doesn't know what my right hack is doing.

   Mmm, soul energy, tastes like peaches.


terry



SPANISH PIPEDREAM
(john prine)

She was a level-headed dancer on the road to alcohol
And I was just a soldier on my way to Montreal
Well, she pressed her chest against me
About the time the jukebox broke
Yeah, she gave me a peck on the back of the neck
And these are the words she spoke
Blow up your TV, throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try and find Jesus on your own
Well, I sat there at the table and I acted real naive
For I knew that topless lady had something up her sleeve
Well, she danced around the bar room and she did the hoochy-coo
Yeah, she sang her song all night long, tellin' me what to do
Blow up your TV, throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try and find Jesus on your own
Well, I was young and hungry and about to leave that place
When just as I was leavin', well she looked me in the face
I said "you must know the answer"
She said, "no, but I'll give it a try"
And to this very day we've been livin' our way
And here is the reason why
We blew up our TV, threw away our paper
Went to the country, built us a home
Had a lot of children, fed 'em on peaches
They all found Jesus on their own

Songwriters: Jeffrey Bradford Kent, John Prine

Ni Nurtaji, it is true, your communication with others is completely for shit. This is one of your most endearing qualities. I treasure the microscopic bit of humor that I share with you.

For you to remain silent would be a catastrophic loss to all intricate minds spouting incomprehensible bullshit from the depths of their exploration of existence. But I believe there is no danger of this whatsoever. Your Buddha Ego is bulletproof and unquenchably resilient. I have told you half a dozen times to shut the fuck up for a minute, and you never managed more than 45 seconds on the best day.

And remember Rumi: 

love, tim

This isn't necessarily directed to you NN, I'm just riffing off of this statement.

It's important to understand that there are two major approaches to dealing with pain/suffering:

1. Use the power of the mind and intention to go to the place of pain/discomfort and to mentally block it or will it away.
2. Go to the place of pain/discomfort and remove any psychological resistances to the pain.

Both approaches work and are skillful at certain moments. But it's important to understand that #1 is fundamentally repression and the power of that pain/discomfort will come back in sneaky ways. It's masking the symptoms. #2 doesn't always make the pain go away immediately, but it does makes the situation workable. Pain = discomfort x resistance. If resistance is decreased, total pain is much less. In some cases, it was the resistance itself that was the problem and the pain becomes negligble. But usually what is left is the appropriate minimum symptomatic discomfort. From this point, the cause of the discomfort can be investigated skillfully and the cause can be fixed. Then the pain goes away. 

I've had many interesting discussions where I thought I was talking about the same approach with someone, but it turned out one of us was talking about #1 and the other about #2.

Practice #1 leads to the denial and suppression of one's humanity. There have been quite a few people through these boards who have professed to be able to maintain practice #1 and claim to have eliminated the pain and suffering (emotions) of being human. For some reason, these folks seem to disappear from these parts never to return, or eventually see their error clearly and recant.

agree

The way I do it is to make both hurting place more transmissible and some other pathway next to it. If there is any kind of tiredness or pain inducing issue then resistance will be naturally higher than in the newly opened pathway which until then was resting so signals will much more likely go through new pathways. Signals will also go through hurting pathway but much much less and in this case it won't be experienced as suffering but rather something which feels like resting and healing or in other words: pleasure.

This does not require all that much precision and only thing to note is that it is much easier to locate pain than any pathway next to it so trying this approach when not having good perception of nervous system will be more like it first increases pain along making some of it change in to pleasure before getting to it disappearing and only experiencing pleasure and activity around the hurting place. With more precision it is possible to first deal with opening new pathways and then handle hurting ones and this is experienced as first having activity around hurting place along with disappearance of pain and then getting pleasure.

Blocking can work and it can force energy to go somewhere else but it is not supportive in healing and then you are left with said blockades. Also when there is a lot of energy and it can not easily go anywhere else it can cause really nasty overload in nervous system. However given how much blockades I had to deal with I guess for many years it was my method of choice It certainly feels more natural and obvious than opening yourself to experience the hurting place even more than it is already opened.

From within this perspective it is also possible to deal with suffering making whole nervous system (or just the affected path) flicker in and out of experience. I call this method as cessation though I am not sure if that is the best name. Applied globally it seems it causes everything to reroute itself naturally and also gives nervous system time to recover. I can still do it and at times it does seem like the best choice to just go with it and maybe fix any remain issues with other methods.

BTW. I think going to nervous system while it works pretty much always should be done as the last resort fix. Many of the emotional and even mental issues can be resolved from within normal experience by changing attitude toward certain things when it is this attitude that is causing issues to arise. End result should be the same and even physical pain can be dealt to the same degree without going to nervous system directly. It is because these methods are causing exactly the same change. Still dwelling in nervous system is useful because at times from experience it requires so much mental and emotional gymnastics that it is then simpler to work with nervous system.

As sombody that has to stick needles in his body at least five times a day I can add a #3.  Become the pain. If you want to call it that. No separation from the perception and there is only what is. No description needed. Just that.

Linda, it actually makes perfect sense. There is a kind of very sweet and extatic substance-like something which I know more or less how to trigger and which it then literally feells like it drips and flows through my brain. I did not use it much yet but it is in my plans. Burning brain... I think my neurons stopped caring for that sort for things long time ago and started enjoying it XD

The book you mentioned is definitely something which seems like I should read so thank you. It might give me some inspiration.

I do not consider myself occultist or even normal spiritual practicioner. Rather a freelancer of sorts.
I do not think there is any need to worry. I try to be at least moderately careful and at least not wake up more demons or bigger than what I can deal with one at a time

Doesn't sound too pleasant. Hope you are getting better

Have you listened to "Windmills of Your Mind". If I can be allowed a poor imitation of my friend Terry, I'll include the lyrics.

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Keys that jingle in your pocket, words that jangle in your head
Why did summer go so quickly, was it something that you said?
Lovers walking along a shore and leave their footprints in the sand
Is the sound of distant drumming just the fingers of your hand?
Pictures hanging in a hallway and the fragment of a song
Half remembered names and faces, but to whom do they belong?
When you knew that it was over you were suddenly aware
That the autumn leaves were turning to the color of her hair!
Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel
As the images unwind, like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind!
Songwriters: Marilyn Bergman / Michel Legrand / Alan Bergman


Be careful brother!  Life is much simpler.  When you still the windmills every thing else falls into place. Holding on to pleasant or unpleasant is not the formula. And thank you for your concern.

I had a hunch that it would make sense. I remember you mentioning the nectar too. You do seem to be doing fine, so I'm not that worried, but please watch out for any signs. It would be a tragedy to fry that beautiful mind of yours. 

By itself it rather makes my brain to feel colder, a cool sweet electric liquid feeling and colors much deeper and vibrant. There is very strong reaction of nervous system to it.
There must be some way to use this energy that is more meanigful than just making colors more vibrant and head orgasms. I gues the only way to find out is to jump off the cliff and break some neurons.

Still it can be used to generate much nicer metta...

Metta to you

Thankyou! I appreciate that.

Yes, you can probably accomplish a lot with this. Still, I feel that I should tell you that translated into traditional Buddhism, this seems to be a way to be reborn into a God realm. Blissful for eons, but then you die and will most likely be reborn in one of the lower realms. Whether there is any truth to that or just religious belief, I do not know. It's not a path that I would wish to take (and I have actually made a vow not to), but it's not for me to say what you should or shouldn't do. I just didn't want to withhold this information. You have the resources to choose what to aim for. I hope you will find your greatest good. Metta!

Um, that's actually the same as #2  

I read that #2 "doesn't always make the pain go away immediatly". I'm not denying that this is a useful approach and correct for finding the cause of pain and even remediating it.  But when pain is expected and its source is known, fully concentrating on it from the start short circuits the concept of pain.  It's even worked when having stitches without anesthesia.  

I second it is the same as #2
It also is pretty much the same as what I describe at times as "dropping relief from suffering"

There are some differences between "implementation" of course and this as I mentioned can be tweaked and improved. How much depends on training these skills and noticing what can be done at the place of pain and elsewhere. In general however general trend that when you let everything through is the same and if that is done certain things will happen naturally.

It could be said that with modifications this becomes #3, especially when you do it before pain happens but it is still too similar to not just put it to #2.

For #3 I would personally use doing cessation repeatedly on nervous system which is like flickering/flashing it. It is enough different in implementation and how it works and requires more knowledge and skill. It is also perhaps even further away from how people typically deal with suffering. It requires mastering all 9 jhanas to the point you can just do them even when experiencing distraction in form of suffering.

In some way it can be said that especially in case of very strong pain your body will do all these things by itself including method #4 which is: taking painkillers

This thread makes me wonder another thing... Maybe the AF people were also harvesting brain center openings? That would explain how it could do something different from the path, like Daniel says. I would guess that they harvested different kinds of brain center openings than what Ni Nurta has been doing, though. I have more hope that Ni Nurta will actually use this for good and avoid turning into a robot, even though working with the siddhis is still risky business. 

maybe i missed it, what is harvesting brain center openings?

It is how the tradition of Kundalini Vidya describes the process of developing siddhis, something that can be done without following the spiritual path. The descriptions I have found basically describe the same thing as Ni Nurta. It is about opening up the dalas in Sahash... something Lotus. The thousandpetal lotus. They talk about it on an energetical level but also say that in the physical body this maps on to brain function. Ni Nurta has experimented with this on his/her own, without following any teachings, and found out how to crack the codes to the siddhis with regard to designing new patterns for brain processing. It's a remarkable accomplishment and also probably very high-risk. We have been discussing this to some extent in my practice log, because of a shared interest in energetic aspects. That's how I knew about the experience of nectar flooding through the brain, which comes with the territory, and also some somewhat more hands-on explanations on how it is done (although I believe words are too crude). I find it more interesting to talk about what Ni Nurta is doing than what he/she is not doing. It's actually brilliant. 

Hello Linda,

Ninurta is a male name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninurta
I ma a "he" =)

Kind Regards,
Paweł

What do you mean by "short circuits the concept of pain?"

My take is that non-duality as it is described is special case of fixing more general issue with routing. More precisely you have signals going from two or more places at once and they go through one part of the brain which then quickly switches between these two experiences. It could be called "congestion". This switching creates dukkha. If that happens right before consciousness then it requires additional activity to "comprehend" them which creates additional activity and this activity also creates dukkha.

AF highly "inspired" by others work: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3644560
It deals with exactly the same issue but from slightly different angle thus it leads to slightly different outcomes. It is however nothing new.

Daniel's episode with AF only shows that you get results in these areas at which you actually put effort investigating and working on. I would even say that it gives good reason to be more diligent in developing better tools that allow to investigate your own body and mind for all the cases which are harder to notice. Some times it is unimaginable that there is any issue there and when it is fixed the only comment could be "How I was even able to live like that for so many years?"

My color synesthesia is result of resolving exactly this kind of routing issue but in the brain area which is rarely ever investigated. My assumption always was that anyone could get the same effects when working with eyesight. It does "open channels" in brain as much as any such practice does. Vipassana does also, just different channels are opened and the routing is fixed at different places. I even had completely screwed routing related to what Daniel refer to in MCTB and yet I had my eyesight feel like it was somehow literally enlightened. This proved me that these things are separate and have to be trained separately. (on a side note: I recently discovered that scotopic vision is separate from photopic vision. I still have some signal congestion/duality in scotopic vision even when my photopic vision is fully enlightened and non-dual XD)

From what I remember Daniel fixed something about his time perception when he practiced AF. I also investigated time perception after 4th path and managed to fix something about it. What exactly? The same damn routing issue.

Also fixing this kind of routing issue is more or less also what method #2 that shargrol mentioned is all about. The way to make brain merge experiences before they hit consciousness is actually exactly the same. The congestions just need to be located and resistance in the area in question cleared. If that is done from within perspectives which show nervous system more directly (I guess it is harder) or from inside conscious experience (this is from where I did most of the work!) does not really matter. It is dropping resistance to pain which is the control signal to wake up and open pathways so that they can participate in processing. If you are not ready to experience some pain then you won't be wanting to do anything, hence signal congestions happen. It is also why if I want to use this amrita thing I need to befully accept pain that comes with it. Not even "if it happens" but assume that "it will happen", otherwise my nervous system will be too nervous to fully open itself to this experience.

BTW. If I ever turn to dark side it will be to later betray my dark lord and kill him

It would be wonderful if when we write other people understand exactly what we meant and everybody understood the same thing. But that would bring this forum to a halt.  What fun is there in that?  When I read what Shargrol wrote I understood and agreed with his formula of Pain=discomfort x resistance. He goes on to describe the process. I see it as requiring some investigation of what is happening.  I've done this hundreds of times, almost on a daily basis now that old age brings new ways of causing pain. But what I'm talking about is not allowing any thought at all. Concentrating so hard on the physiological effects that they become a series of sensations.  I am not trying to get rid of the pain. Of course, this is not a formula for meditation, which would be bad, just a way to get through momentary and inevitable pain, using strength of concentration.  But, if not, you can use Ni Nurta's #3 or go straight to his #4, painkillers. 

This is where our takes differ. I don’t believe that non-duality is an effect from routing. I think it’s the deeper reality. I can’t prove it, though. It’s just that the glimpses I have had - sometimes short ones, sometimes longer ones - make so much more sense than anything else once I have had them. And that’s totally what any psychotic person might say too. I can’t blame anyone for not buying it.



I don't know enough about any of the methods applied to tell whether they are similar, but if AF was some kind of brain center harvesting too, I guess that explains some questions that I have been having, about what the f-ck it was. Apparently it had very tangible effects on people's minds and behavior. From what I have heard, many outcomes turned out both to be creepy for everyone around the person and to not last. Yet it seems that some practicioners, such as Daniel, also had some good outcomes from it (as you mentioned later in your post), at least for a while. I don't know if any of the good effects lasted. From what I have heard, I wouldn't take my chances. Personally I really don't see the point of getting rid of emotions, which seemed to be the ideal there (this was before my time, so for me it's hearsay). Even if there were advantages to it, there would be no joy from them, obviously. I prefer to get to know the awakened quality of the whole rainbow of emotions. I think Daniel very selectively did only parts of the AF approach, not the whole package? 

A major difference is that when rewiring occurs through following the progress of insight, duality isn't maintained. Reality is no longer experienced with the sense of control that you still seem to describe. That difference is also implied in the Kundalini Vidya framework, if I understand it correctly, even though they use other kinds of maps. It seems to me like "Kundalini reaching the Makara point" is the A&P event and "Kundalini reaching the Bindu" is cessation/fruition, and never leaving Samadhi may be the same thing as flipping that switch to non-duality as in MCTB2 4th path. Translated to Buddhism, this means that it is possible to harvest brain center openings without ever had any single cessation. That would explain why nonduality is still perceived as a state that can be separated from other states, whereas if you follow the PoI to its end, that is not the experience.

I believe that would qualify as dark, yeah. We are supposed to help liberate all sentient beings, not kill them.  You can't kill karma. 

By the way, nice to meet you, Pawel, now that we have been formally introduced.

So #2 then  
 

I think non-duality is *a* reality but not any more true (deeper) than Brand X (the dual/relative reality). It would be a mistake to reify non-duality. People can get stuck there.

Just sayin'

Well, if you edit my comments I guess it is. Can you give me a #21/2 at least?  

Angel, I didn't edit your comments. I excerpted what I thought were the cogent points.

I'm a long term vipassana meditator and what you were describing is vipassana. Investigating a phenomenon by focusing on it (concentrating) in order to deconstruct its constituent parts to see how it's built by mind (IOW, dependent origination). That investigation can very easily have the effects you're describing. I've done it many times myself. But I don't see it as another method. Rather, it's a different way to describe shargrol's #2 method.

I understand what you are saying and I agree. I was just bantering. I appreciate and respect the opinion of all the people here. I know they are serious practitioners. I continue to learn from the different views and experiences that can be read here. To be able to participate in such an open forum is a great gift.  Mind explorers!

it depends...afferent or efferent?

t

    Then keep a close eye on your friends, bra, lest they turn and rend you.

terry



"None ever learned the art of archery from me who did not, in the end, use me as a target."

~saadi

aloha amigo (as some of the fruit vendors at the kona pure market say),

   I think of consciousness as like a kaleidoscope, whose sharp edged ever changing geometric progressions which so impress us turn out on analysis to be the result of a small handful of rounded, colored pebbles. 

terry

   Aristotle believed that the (sole) purpose of the brain was to cool the system, kind of like a radiator for the heart. Modern scientists of course ridicule this idea. 

terry

1. magic
2. logic


believing in magic will eventually catch up to you and you will inevitably catch a nasty virus...or a reasonable facsimile...



t




"A man who never changes his opinions is like stagnant water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
~blake





from "the commanding self" by idries shah:



FLAVOUR


Q: Many of the things which Sufis say should be approached with caution or avoided altogether except under special conditions, move me deeply. And many of these are things which people of all religions have need for centuries: music, invocations, rituals...

A: This is precisely why some people, in all religions, have warned against mistaking excitement for spirituality.

   If you have to flavour four hundred kilograms of ice cream, you will need one third of its weight in real fruit juice. If you put less in, you will be adding goodness, but it will not be perceptible. 

   If, however, you add instead synthetic flavouring, you will need only one three-thousandth of the volume to produce fruit flavour.
   
   Now decide, do you want the easy way to get flavour with no nutritional value, or the flavour and the fruit content as well? The smallest pinch of false fruit flavour will give the impression of fruit, and is easily pbtained.

   How many people, however, will say, "Why should I not have the synthetic, since it is so easily added?"

I suspect it is rather like raising dental floss in montana... a lonely job, that...only MoI...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8G982fE90

Hola. Right on!  If you admire the geometric progresions to much the prism gets stuck in your eye.  Like the kid band Dynamite Boy sang: 

My Kaleidoscope
My Kaliedoscope
Helps me see things my own way.