No more respawns - Discussion
... Theravada is a "cosmic suicide club" as Kenneth Folk once said in an interview.
Was Kenneth referring to the cycle of rebirth and death, or was he referring to something different? Is it possible he was referring to the notion that only in death are we truly free of suffering? Put differently, some would say suffering is endemic to the human condition. As long as we're alive and conscious, we suffer. Short bursts of freedom from suffering are possible, as in cessation, but permanent relief is only available in death.
Chris Marti:
... Theravada is a "cosmic suicide club" as Kenneth Folk once said in an interview.
Was Kenneth referring to the cycle of rebirth and death, or was he referring to something different? Is it possible he was referring to the notion that only in death are we truly free of suffering? Put differently, some would say suffering is endemic to the human condition. As long as we're alive and conscious, we suffer. Short bursts of freedom from suffering are possible, as in cessation, but permanent relief is only available in death.
"Early Buddhism was a cosmic suicide club. Cure for dukkha is extinction. Surprised how few people know this. No experience, no dukkha."
Grabbed this from a thread on Kenneth's Twitter as I remember reading it recently. In the thread it looks like he's describing what Chris says above and challenging views of Nibanna that describe anything other than cessation. Some other good lines:
"Most people, even Buddhists, think that nirvana is some kind of heaven. It isn't. It is nirodha. Cessation of experience"
"I mean that nirvana and oblivion both refer to the same phenomenon, with different spin. End of experience."
"We all want to be at our own funeral. Of course. Me too. But that's not nirvana. That's wishful thinking.
"
Siavash:
How much credence are you willing to give a 2,500-year-old oral tradition?
Ni Nurta:
Siavash:
How much credence are you willing to give a 2,500-year-old oral tradition?
I love this
Poor buddha!
Chris Marti:
Can we open the discussion towards reaching a definition agreed on by everyone?
That's likely to be a fruitful conversation.
I'll go first: I posit that what Buddhism means by "suffering" is better described as those things the mind does that cause us to 1) attach to objects or 2) fear or be dissatisfied by objects. It's the process of identifying with "things" we perceive around us as part of the subject/object illusion we live in. It is this illusion/delusion that causes us to "suffer."
This process or condition is often called "ignorance."
Yeps!
We can go home now. Waiter, can I have the bill please
[quote=Chris Marti
I hold this truth to be self-evident (after some serious examination, of course).
Pun intended?
I hold this truth to be self-evident (after some serious examination, of course).
Pun intended?
Ellimination of experience of sense of self by its deconstruction is not the same as extinction of passions which cause rebirth. If that was so then 1st path was the last.
If you had a button which when pressed would immediately end your sensate experience without ending your apparent life (eg. for other people you would still exist like nothing has ever happened) and your experience would never ever return... would you press it?
Regardless if it is yes or no then reasons, thoughts, emotions, etc. should be noted and analyzed.
BTW. For anyone who was disturbed by this thought experiment here is the path to end any bad emotions: https://www.google.com/search?q=funny+cats&tbm=vid
If you had a button which when pressed would immediately end your sensate experience without ending your apparent life (eg. for other people you would still exist like nothing has ever happened) and your experience would never ever return... would you press it?
Regardless if it is yes or no then reasons, thoughts, emotions, etc. should be noted and analyzed.
BTW. For anyone who was disturbed by this thought experiment here is the path to end any bad emotions: https://www.google.com/search?q=funny+cats&tbm=vid
Chris Marti:
There's something else.
What if we were to call that something else "wisdom?"
And this Wisdom would be like a compassionate grandma watching over myriads of kids playing in the sand box? EDIT to add smilies
Chris Marti:
Papa - please read this:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Praj%C3%B1%C4%81_(Buddhism)
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Praj%C3%B1%C4%81_(Buddhism)
Oh
my bad! I did edit my post above. But thanks for the link
I'm just glad I made it to the stadium in time for the game so to speak...
~fumbling with change at the hot dog stands~
~fumbling with change at the hot dog stands~
Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö:
Wait, what? Would you press that button, Ni Nurta? Why?
What is the worst thing that could possibly happen when everything is impermanent?
Realization that it is so impermanent that it makes everything also permanent?
No not really.
We can understand things 100% objectively eg. computers. We know every single bit of computer and why it is there because it was defined by humans. There is absolutely no mystery here.
If you were to use your perceptions and experience of perceptions then what would you know? Absolutely nothing. You push button here and there is beep there.
This is the issue with meditation and siddhis. From this kind of discovery to knowing how it works path is much longer than from discovering where you can put your mental fingers.
What I said we cannot predict is what effects introducing and using technology will have in long term. Even computers we could not predict will be used mostly for whatever they are used today, especially at the beginning when they just calculated numbers. When something is based on poorly understood models it is much harder because there might be side effects which our models did not include. Example would be pretty much every chemical compound we introduced.
This actually fits to this topic in a way. How did Buddha know that parinibbana will be good if he didn't experience it before? He only experienced nibbana because he always lived. Maybe getting what he considered liberation is actually causing experience of damnation?
These things are not obvious. Internal perceptions, especially regarding phenomena we cannot verify, are not very good scientific tool.
Add to this mount of mr Stupid of Dunning-Kruger Effect and you have recipe for disaster.
What I say here is that one should know own limitations and liminations of methods and of knowing certain things in general... and if one want some certainty in life then choose mathematics and computer sciences
ps. I am not joking in the last sentence. From what I noticed it is the people who do not have anything which gives them this experience of complete certainty as a reference will compulsively fit inherently unknowable phenomena and concepts in to realms of certainty and cloud their perception of reality with it. I see it in people who talk about dharma and am like "The funk is wrong with these people... :banging my head on the wall:"
We can understand things 100% objectively eg. computers. We know every single bit of computer and why it is there because it was defined by humans. There is absolutely no mystery here.
If you were to use your perceptions and experience of perceptions then what would you know? Absolutely nothing. You push button here and there is beep there.
This is the issue with meditation and siddhis. From this kind of discovery to knowing how it works path is much longer than from discovering where you can put your mental fingers.
What I said we cannot predict is what effects introducing and using technology will have in long term. Even computers we could not predict will be used mostly for whatever they are used today, especially at the beginning when they just calculated numbers. When something is based on poorly understood models it is much harder because there might be side effects which our models did not include. Example would be pretty much every chemical compound we introduced.
This actually fits to this topic in a way. How did Buddha know that parinibbana will be good if he didn't experience it before? He only experienced nibbana because he always lived. Maybe getting what he considered liberation is actually causing experience of damnation?
These things are not obvious. Internal perceptions, especially regarding phenomena we cannot verify, are not very good scientific tool.
Add to this mount of mr Stupid of Dunning-Kruger Effect and you have recipe for disaster.
What I say here is that one should know own limitations and liminations of methods and of knowing certain things in general... and if one want some certainty in life then choose mathematics and computer sciences
ps. I am not joking in the last sentence. From what I noticed it is the people who do not have anything which gives them this experience of complete certainty as a reference will compulsively fit inherently unknowable phenomena and concepts in to realms of certainty and cloud their perception of reality with it. I see it in people who talk about dharma and am like "The funk is wrong with these people... :banging my head on the wall:"
Ni Nurta:
We can understand things 100% objectively eg. computers. We know every single bit of computer and why it is there because it was defined by humans. There is absolutely no mystery here.
If you were to use your perceptions and experience of perceptions then what would you know? Absolutely nothing. You push button here and there is beep there.
This is the issue with meditation and siddhis. From this kind of discovery to knowing how it works path is much longer than from discovering where you can put your mental fingers.
What I said we cannot predict is what effects introducing and using technology will have in long term. Even computers we could not predict will be used mostly for whatever they are used today, especially at the beginning when they just calculated numbers. When something is based on poorly understood models it is much harder because there might be side effects which our models did not include. Example would be pretty much every chemical compound we introduced.
This actually fits to this topic in a way. How did Buddha know that parinibbana will be good if he didn't experience it before? He only experienced nibbana because he always lived. Maybe getting what he considered liberation is actually causing experience of damnation?
These things are not obvious. Internal perceptions, especially regarding phenomena we cannot verify, are not very good scientific tool.
Add to this mount of mr Stupid of Dunning-Kruger Effect and you have recipe for disaster.
What I say here is that one should know own limitations and liminations of methods and of knowing certain things in general... and if one want some certainty in life then choose mathematics and computer sciences
ps. I am not joking in the last sentence. From what I noticed it is the people who do not have anything which gives them this experience of complete certainty as a reference will compulsively fit inherently unknowable phenomena and concepts in to realms of certainty and cloud their perception of reality with it. I see it in people who talk about dharma and am like "The funk is wrong with these people... :banging my head on the wall:"
Even if we could somehow know all of this, we will always be limited by our own perception. How do we come to know these things, how do we come to know anything? Through mental formations, through observation, through the sense doors, all of which occurs from within our own mind and all of which are dependent upon clinging. I really don't see a way around that.
By the way... I am a programmer, I have a degree in computer science. And there's plenty of uncertainty in my life, whether I am sitting behind a computer screen or not. And I don't view that as a bad thing
Chris Marti:
... Theravada is a "cosmic suicide club" as Kenneth Folk once said in an interview.
Was Kenneth referring to the cycle of rebirth and death, or was he referring to something different? Is it possible he was referring to the notion that only in death are we truly free of suffering? Put differently, some would say suffering is endemic to the human condition. As long as we're alive and conscious, we suffer. Short bursts of freedom from suffering are possible, as in cessation, but permanent relief is only available in death.
"Suffering" is not in my view a negative. It is basically the passive in the pairing, active/passive, yang and yin. We actively carry out our will, or we passively await events and allow things to happen at their own speed and unfold in their own way, without interference.
Suffering is patience. Suffering is endurance. Yes, suffering is life.
Lets go back to sukkha (sweetness) and dukkha, unweetness. Dukkha is a reference to a gradient of perceived experience as we characterize it as pleasant or unpleasant. Suffering is actually how we handle experience, whether good or bad. The "pleasure principle" is inherent to all life, and the buddha suggests we observe positive, negative, and neutral as instrumental to the establishment of mindfulness.
In the context of ending rebirth, the adept suffers good and bad equally. The establishment of universal suffering is the end of karma.
(And you tyhought you were depressed before!)
terry
Siavash:
Ni Nurta:
Siavash:
How much credence are you willing to give a 2,500-year-old oral tradition?
I love this
Poor buddha!
THE SKY IS CRYING
(Elmore James)
The sky is crying, look at the tears roll down the street
The sky is crying, look at the tears roll down the street
I'm waiting in tears looking for my baby, and I wonder where can she be?
I saw my baby one morning, and she was walking on down the street
I saw my baby one morning, yes she was walking on down the street
Made me feel so good until my poor heart would skip a beat
I got a bad feeling, my baby, my baby don't love me no more
I got a bad feeling, my baby don't love me no more
Now the sky's been crying, the tears rolling down my door
To me rarely it feels that the sky is crying, often it feels like the sky and earth are celebrating together. Thunder storm, sky is having an adventure .
.
Siavash:
To me rarely it feels that the sky is crying, often it feels like the sky and earth are celebrating together. Thunder storm, sky is having an adventure .
.“Stars, I have seen them fall,
But when they drop and die
No star is lost at all
From all the star-sown sky.
The toil of all that be
Helps not the primal fault;
It rains into the sea
And still the sea is salt.”
― A.E. Housman, A Shropshire Lad
I think this would be a more interesting and worthwhile discussion for you to share your definition of suffering with us, Angel. We can all quote from the writings of others, but putting our own interpretations out here for others to see and discuss is much better, IMHO.
Chris Marti:
I think this would be a more interesting and worthwhile discussion for you to share your definition of suffering with us, Angel. We can all quote from the writings of others, but putting our own interpretations out here for others to see and discuss is much better, IMHO.
Angel,
You have to understand something - I'm old. I forget way more than I recall. Now that you've reminded me, I do remember our exchange. So forgive me, please.
In my experience, DhO is different than most message boards in terms of conversational continuity. These discussions aren't as consistent as they are in many places, and folks here tend more toward ready, fire, aim, and then don't come back for a few days, weeks, or maybe even months. I've gotten used to it and obviously manage to contribute to the discontinuous stuff myself - as you now know.
And speaking of Tim, he's the most guilty of all of us!
(That's probably like saying "Beetlejuice" three times, so... Hi, Tim.)
You have to understand something - I'm old. I forget way more than I recall. Now that you've reminded me, I do remember our exchange. So forgive me, please.
In my experience, DhO is different than most message boards in terms of conversational continuity. These discussions aren't as consistent as they are in many places, and folks here tend more toward ready, fire, aim, and then don't come back for a few days, weeks, or maybe even months. I've gotten used to it and obviously manage to contribute to the discontinuous stuff myself - as you now know.
And speaking of Tim, he's the most guilty of all of us!
(That's probably like saying "Beetlejuice" three times, so... Hi, Tim.)
I'm guilty for this I know I often tend to cycle off the theme. Mostly because my intellectual capacity is rather low. Many times I wonder what the heck am I doing amongst such smart and intellectual folks. On the docks they find me to be a wise guy but here in the deep waters of DhO I'm but a tiny sardine amongst whales.
I ought to practice Noble silence some more too much chatter can attract the sharks!
You are a breath of fresh air here so please do not just "get the f... out of here"
I often tend to cycle off the theme. Mostly because my intellectual capacity is rather low. Many times I wonder what the heck am I doing amongst such smart and intellectual folks. On the docks they find me to be a wise guy but here in the deep waters of DhO I'm but a tiny sardine amongst whales. I ought to practice Noble silence some more
too much chatter can attract the sharks! You are a breath of fresh air here so please do not just "get the f... out of here"
Chris Marti:
I just think that it would be better if there was a common understanding.
This is a fascinating issue, and message boards like this one can be the worst places to go to get there. This has driven some of us to leave message boards in the past because those in charge wouldn't take a stand against rather obvious nonsense on the part of certain participants In some cases, by those they themselves put in positions of authority as moderators. This was one of those message boards once upon a time. There is a cautiousness, a shyness about having to enforce rules, that Buddhists running message boards have that can be quite concerning.
Thank you, fellows! Don't worry about age Chris, I'm no whippersnapper. I'm at that unholy age of 69. Papa Che, it's not "intelectual capacity" that makes the difference, it's having so much time on my hands. I usually think over my answers and do research, to at least prevent making a total ass of myself, which is not always possible. 
When I come back I find that I've been overrun by all you quick studies, like now. By the time I wrote my reply there were bunches of comments. Let me get to it. See you in a while.
When I come back I find that I've been overrun by all you quick studies, like now. By the time I wrote my reply there were bunches of comments. Let me get to it. See you in a while.
Papa Che Dusko:
I'm guilty for this I know I often tend to cycle off the theme. Mostly because my intellectual capacity is rather low. Many times I wonder what the heck am I doing amongst such smart and intellectual folks. On the docks they find me to be a wise guy but here in the deep waters of DhO I'm but a tiny sardine amongst whales.
I ought to practice Noble silence some more too much chatter can attract the sharks!
You are a breath of fresh air here so please do not just "get the f... out of here"
I often tend to cycle off the theme. Mostly because my intellectual capacity is rather low. Many times I wonder what the heck am I doing amongst such smart and intellectual folks. On the docks they find me to be a wise guy but here in the deep waters of DhO I'm but a tiny sardine amongst whales. I ought to practice Noble silence some more
too much chatter can attract the sharks! You are a breath of fresh air here so please do not just "get the f... out of here"
Beginner's mind is the way. Not knowing is the truth.
It isn't a matter of size, but a matter of age. The young and fresh as opposed to the old and wizened.
You help us keep it fresh.
t
qu'ran, sura 18:110
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “I am only a man like you, ˹but˺ it has been revealed to me that your God is only One God. So whoever hopes for the meeting with their Lord, let them do good deeds and associate none in the worship of their Lord.”
I'm generally 95% confident, within two standard deviations.
Six sigma is al the rage these days terry. Two sigma is waaay too imprecise
Angel Roberto Puente:
Thank you, fellows! Don't worry about age Chris, I'm no whippersnapper. I'm at that unholy age of 69. Papa Che, it's not "intelectual capacity" that makes the difference, it's having so much time on my hands. I usually think over my answers and do research, to at least prevent making a total ass of myself, which is not always possible. When I come back I find that I've been overrun by all you quick studies, like now. By the time I wrote my reply there were bunches of comments. Let me get to it. See you in a while.
When I come back I find that I've been overrun by all you quick studies, like now. By the time I wrote my reply there were bunches of comments. Let me get to it. See you in a while.one of these days, son, likely on your next birhday, you are going to realize, as I did, that you are not a sexagenarian any longer...
Angel Roberto Puente:
Oh,
I fell into a time warp! That the conversation keeps coming up shows
that the roots of the problem have never been properly addressed. I
know that people protect their fiefdom. That's why big organizations
religious or otherwise hold such tight reins. The Catholic church is
a good example but Buddhist organizations also operate like this. I
understand your point, Linda. I suppose that change will have to come
when people get tired of not getting the results they are offered.
Whoever comes up with the most efficient system will prevail. That race
has already left the starting gate.
I fell into a time warp! That the conversation keeps coming up shows
that the roots of the problem have never been properly addressed. I
know that people protect their fiefdom. That's why big organizations
religious or otherwise hold such tight reins. The Catholic church is
a good example but Buddhist organizations also operate like this. I
understand your point, Linda. I suppose that change will have to come
when people get tired of not getting the results they are offered.
Whoever comes up with the most efficient system will prevail. That race
has already left the starting gate.
"Sects, sects, sects... that's all you buddhists ever think about."