“Not sure” Papa’s Log No. ?

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

“Not sure” Papa’s Log No. ?

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Not sure how to proceed with my practice. Shargrol suggested to look in the WUTYL book as there could be other practices in there which might resonate well with me. I bought this book because of a discussion over at the Awakened Network but just didn't click with the 6 Realms practice so I gave up on it. 

Last night took it out and just opened it up automatically and the page was on 5 Elements and Dakini practice. The Air element was interesting; it's in the throat, always on the move, uncertain, etc ... 

Also the meditation on death using the Air element seems rather fitting for me as I do have fear of heights. 

Don't know. I always looked down on visualization meditation. It just seems too staged. But then again I remember times when I was a Shamatha meditator laughing at those doing Noting practice. 

However I have started to observe the Air element in breathing, feeling air on skin, movements, and I sit 30 minutes before bed time. Noticing of it all takes place but I'm trying to be more aware of the Air element; movement of the mind states, feelings, body sensations, breathing sensations. 

I must find time to read that chapter on 5 Elements to wrap my mind around it as it still doesn't make much sense when it comes to that Dakini visualization. I do get the Death meditation and maybe that's what I'm to do as it's crystal clear; fear of heights and me approaching the edge of a sharp cliff ... then falling down ... feeling the feelings, the rushing air, the ground getting closer and closer ... WHAM!!! Dead. Sit with these feelings, sink into them. 

Will need to read more in the book but i did try and visualize this in my last nights sit. I could create images of this scenario and it was a tall building (even worse fear, got me heart pumping as I stood at the edge) brrr emoticon scary shit! Do not try this at home kids! This has nothing to do with suicidal tendencies. I'm more of a soldier type person who would rather die in the battle field for a cause. emoticon 

Anyway, started a new log. Let's see how this goes. 

May it be for the benefit of many. 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: “Not sure” Papa’s Log No. ?

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emoticon

Do not try this at home kids! This has nothing to do with suicidal tendencies. I'm more of a soldier type person who would rather die in the battle field for a cause. emoticon 

Amen. You just need a sense of advancing into the right field of machine fire, and there's no stopping you! The only thing that scares you more than heights right now seems (to this befuddled and clueless observing friend, and for what it's worth) to be, uh, equanimity.

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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POI stuff can cycle as it will. I think it would be of benefit to work on some other aspects for now. It's a hunch but then again my whole life was so far based on hunches and look where that brought me emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ok emoticon let me talk POI a bit;

sensate experience is rather drumming in ears, Mysery (as sadness), bodily heaviness, stiff neck, sore throat, lack of focus (as in center sharpness is lacking). Also irritated by my sons responses and hearing noises can be irritating too. Yesterday lots of antsy itchy crawly sensations on skin. Coolness of skin. 

If to look at POI then it's DN stage. Certainly not EQ emoticon 

BTW, I don't see anything to be feared in EQ except clinging to it for not being DN anymore. There is nothing in EQ Nana that's concerned with contracted feeling/perception of fear. In my experience that is. Stuff is just there evenly in awareness. Who is aware? can arise ... don't know. Whatever is arising is just fine as is. 

However I don't think I'm to focus on POI right now. Just felt to update Tim my man here on where me mind is on the Map emoticon 
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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My own experience was that POI was important for first and second path. After that, it was all about finding edgy practices that uncovered and exposed the subtle or deeper stuff. 5 elements is probably my favorite practice for doing that. Don't underestimate it.

Just as a bit of explanation --- we always get trapped by samsara through our bodily reactions. For example, a child gets overwhelmed by anger, but an adult who is in touch with anger can "have" anger but not need to lash out. This is the same sort of dynamic that needs to get trained at a more sublte level. The 5 elements are 5 types of experience which tend to make us react unconsciously --- we "grab onto certainty" as earth, we "avoid and push away" as water, we "intensify and indulge" as fire, we "get frantic and busy" as air, we "zone out and become confused" as space. 

If we are unable to be with the body sensations of these elements while still maintaining awareness/presence, then we'll get caught in the reactive pattern. But if we can maintain the energy of awareness more strongly than the energy of the pattern, then the pattern plays out and we're left with the experience of generosity, clarity, discernment, competence, and intelligence/perspective. 

The visualization work by evoking the body feelings we normally avoid and building our capacity to feel them without going reactive. And this then directly translates to awareness and non-reactivity in real life.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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"My own experience was that POI was important for first and second path."

I hear you emoticon maybe Im just rushing things. Maybe Im just trying to hide from something or not face something that POI would uncover ... dunno. Could be. Maybe this path-ing is just too ridiculous for me, in a sense of "where the heck are we heading to when there is nothing other than This", its right here right now (sensations/feelings"mental states unfolidng). Maybe its something else. Who knows?

Ok.

Back to the 5 elements;
So its still in the body sensations emoticon funny as that is whats always really there and readily accessible for us emoticon Basically keep at it, noticing, paying attention. We can call it "5 elements thinking" beacuse when Im become aware of say, cold breeze on skin I then think "air element" emoticon you see why I find these practices ridiculous emoticon as that was but Thinking that came from the sensation of cold breeze and also before that came from us talking about it, because I've heard of it. This leading to that etc ...

Same with visualisation; I guess I can live with the explanation that we invoke the feelings we would otherwise not experince, like the feeling of falling from a high ecliff, hopless, staring at the earth closing in and my inevitable death. I was in active war for 2 years and 4 days. I lived with such thoughts of my imminent death. I've held dead and heavily wounded. I even had a guy bleed out on my hands as I was not clearly thinking to maybe rip his clothes open and find the hit spot to stop that bleeding! His death sure is on me. I didnt know the guy, nor his family nor what they went through after they've got the news about their father's/brother's/husband's/son's death.

Any way, I even had one handgrenade kept just for myself in case I would fall into enemy hands. (certain military groups were radical and even non-official, priding themselves with how they slowly kill those captured). So I would have those visualisations of me holding that grenade and taking out the safety pin and releasing it, pressing it against my chest and just being in those few seconds before ... death. In many ways I have died so many times and yet I still have fear of heights and large dogs emoticon I guess this organisms prefers to survive emoticon 
All this beaing said, I was never suicidal as in ending life because I felt depressed. This war stuff was only fear of falling into wrong hands and being slowly killed or even having another man cut my throat open. Ugly stuff.

Ok back to this thread of not being sure how to proceed; Maybe Im to just sit with exactly THAT! This NOT BEING SURE feeling. Noticing will be with us until the day we die anyway emoticon Its not like we will be free from it while conscious emoticon 

Thanks for the reply shargrol I much appreciate it. I will let it sink in some more and see what comes out of it.
agnostic, modified 9 Months ago.

RE: “Not sure” Papa’s Log No. ?

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I found the dakini stuff a bit abstract, it didn't work long for me and I had more success with concrete visualizations arising from my own life and practice.

For example, if I lost my temper with my son during the day and regretted it then in the evening I would meditate on it. Getting angry is water element - an attempt to disperse my son's energy because I feel powerless to control him - and it leads into hell realm. I would spend some time replaying the situation in my head and allowing the emotions and physical sensations of anger to return without judgement or interference. I would kind of watch it all play out in my body until the energy dispersed. Then I would do another pass and this time watch the emotions/sensations transmute into their "liberated" counterparts, which in the case of water is clarity & insight (think how precise we can be in anger). The insight here would be something like 'oh I can see my son just wanted my attention and I was in the middle of something else and didn't want to be disturbed'. Then the next time the situation arose I had a better chance of not lashing out in anger because I could feel the reactive emotions arise and liberate in real time, so I would give him my attention instead. It doesn't always work, but I'm still amazed when it does.

I also found it helpful to consider my meditation practice from an elements/realms perspective. For example, when I'm feeling overwhelmed by life (space element) then I would tend to do noting practice, which could be considered as a kind of animal realm thing (follow a simple routine and do what you've got to do to survive). When I was feeling good and getting into blissful states then that's god realm, which is about as good as samsara gets. The problem with god realm is the inevitable fall - you have something everyone wants and eventually you end up viewing the world as against you and fall straight into hell realm where everyone is actually against you. In concrete terms, I would get attached (earth element) to the bliss and then more annoyed with my family when they disturbed my blissful state.

I hope this helps. The other book which I found really helpful is Spectrum of Ecstasy which is written by western householder lamas and is full of practical examples which resonate for our kind of lifestyle.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thanks for the tips agnostic but no more books for me emoticon I have already too many: MCTB and WUTYL emoticon 
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J W, modified 9 Months ago.

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I'll chime in with a couple of my thoughts on visualization exercises - not that I have a ton of experience with it but I've done it a bit.

1.They need not be thought of as separate from the POI. I find that many tantric exercises (like Dakini visualizations) actually do map pretty elegantly with the POI and it can help to recognize that.

2. The visual aspect is kind of secondary, IMO. It's more about the energy and the mental state when visualizing the object/deity/whatever.

Cool that you are trying out some new stuff, that sounds fun! 
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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" Shargrol suggested to look in the WUTYL book"
What is the WUTYL book? Could it be useful to me?
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Sam - here's your link to WUTYL - it's a book by Ken Mcleod:

https://www.amazon.com/Wake-Your-Life-Discovering-Attention/dp/0062516817
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago.

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Wake Up to Your Life by Ken McLeod.
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Balint Pinczes, modified 9 Months ago.

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Sam Gentile:
" Shargrol suggested to look in the WUTYL book"
What is the WUTYL book? Could it be useful to me?


On what it is: 
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Balint Pinczes, modified 9 Months ago.

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There seems to be a consensus that it is one of the great dharma books, and also among the great practice-oriented ones recently (2001) published by a Western teacher.

(There is an audiobook, too, read by the author; you can buy it, but it is also available on Spotify and Youtube. https://open.spotify.com/album/43FNMmQaX4Q9YEcJXXFgWL?si=npVuFa6UQv2cbxyYflVYbw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPYBJac7oWI&list=OLAK5uy_lWRq5MhPNthDDe1nYXtlekDA40wtrpKE0&index=2&ab_channel=KenMcLeod-Topic beware of ads though, or use them for working with irritation emoticon )



The first 90 pages would stand on their own - a very nice recapitulation of basic Buddhist concepts and an outline of basic breath meditation as seen by McLeod ("resting in the breath", not identical to observing it) + working with hindrances etc. May be worth checking out even if one is already familiar with the territory (it managed to surprise me a dozen times, but of course that is only a fact about me).

This is followed by a number of practices such as working with emotional reactivity; death & impermanence; five elements; the four immeasurables. One should do these over longer stretches (months or longer). Hopefully someone with more experience can you about results and usefulnes.

Unfettered Mind is an outstanding resource with a wealth of materials by the author, with many of the practices from the book also covered or touched upon here, as well, with recordings from retreat dharma talks etc. As you will see, the subtitle (or motto?) of the site is Pragmatic Buddhism. Sounds not altogether alien or irrelevant to pragmatic dharma...

(Also, his Tibetan lineage might be interesting for you perhaps.) 
  
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thank you all. I've heard nothing but good things about that book.
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Steph, modified 9 Months ago.

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I have the book too. Che - I did some of the 5 elements and dakini practice that you're talking about. It was interesting, but I had trouble getting into imagining the scenarios of emotions they were talking about. I get what you say about it sometimes seeming forced. I didn't continue with it much and perhaps I didn't give it enough of a chance. There are tons of other practices in the book I haven't tried yet, though. The stuff you're paying attention to with the air element & death seems really interesting. Keep it up and let us know how it goes. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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"I get what you say about it sometimes seeming forced."

Yes it does emoticon doesn't it. I will need to simplify the practices as I'm like that in anything I do. I prefer the core teaching and throw away all the packaging and adverts for this to work. The Tibetan religious stuff would need to go first. Dakini bye bye emoticon But I could keep the Colors and imagine them. But even this is making my head shake and smile as in "oh gawd, am I really doing this stuff". 

Dunno. Will find time to get read the book some more. I don't think I'm inspired enough to engage into any practice but to just sit. All else seems like too much effort, placing too many hats on the head so to speak emoticon 

Sitting before bed time is continuing and is more in shape of just sitting. There could be all sorts of practices arising within this sitting and they are but being seen as thoughts and patterns. emoticon I really can't take them seriously for some reason. They pop in just like any other sensate experience.
 
Dukkha and the end of Dukkha was always the main motivator for me and the very reason I started this journey in 2008. Minutes guess I'm not suffering enough to just grab onto something with my hole heart and keep at it. 

Let's see how this goes. 


Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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You're killing me here, Papa Che, lol. I've got a contact NOT SURE HOW TO PROCEED. I'm literally losing sleep over it. They say when you look down a well, you only see your own face, so I've been looking down your well and seeing my own face. 

I was thinking about that beautiful video you made for Olivier--- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DD8WTJFDC4 ---- the path in the birch forest. What can I say? You are literally carving out your own path here. Who can tell you a thing, really?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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I know emoticon We get dragged every so often into this sense that something is to be found down in that deep well, something behind that reflection of our face emoticon How ridiculous really emoticon 

Thank you! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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My 4 year old boy came to me with a photo he found of him as a 1 day old baby holding my little finger. So many memories popped up and so many feelings, tear feelings of joy and amazement and being humbeled by the fact that life comes as it comes about. emoticon 

It dawned on me that I love everyhting about being a sane loving human person. 

This forum can pull one into its dynamic path-ing as there are so many plowing/gliding through their paths and this pull can really be felt in a way of almost needing to follow suit and find a new "better" way and yet to me whats most precious is This unfolding in all its good and bad forms. What else can there be? Chasing new fresh experiences to feel more alive? To feel like one is not behind all those "advanced" members on this forum or elsewhere? Live up to your "attainments"? What?

I actually find all this to be rubish and is only giving newer members/meditators lots of wrong ideas (as in "I also have to have that experience").

Life is already happening ... don't miss it emoticon its a good human life. 

BTW, I think just sitting with what is, will do just fine at this time in my life. Thanks all for chiming in with ideas and tips emoticon 
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Steph, modified 9 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko:

...and yet to me whats most precious is This unfolding in all its good and bad forms. What else can there be? Chasing new fresh experiences to feel more alive? To feel like one is not behind all those "advanced" members on this forum or elsewhere? Live up to your "attainments"? What?

I actually find all this to be rubish and is only giving newer members/meditators lots of wrong ideas (as in "I also have to have that experience").

Life is already happening ... don't miss it emoticon its a good human life. 

Honestly, you really nailed it with this. This is exactly what it is and something I've been appreciating more and more. This unfolding in all its unique and special ways. All of it. Something I wrote the other day that I think might click with you:

One of the biggest errors of focusing on limited aspects of experience (or to connect with what you're saying here, Che, people clinging to how advanced they feel or having FOMO) - like a particular sensation you want more of, or to repress, or get rid of - is that this is ignorant of the totality of experience. While one may want to try to focus on and grasp one thing that feels pleasant or push away something that seems unpleasant, it’s just one aspect of the wider field and it’s impossible to get more or less of that exact sensation or replicate it or delete it. There are countless things that have to come together to produce the totality of what someone experiences via all sense doors in any given moment. It’s like a ballet that comes together instantaneously because of all the elements simultaneously present in that dance. All those countless conditions, which we can never fully know the extent of, coming together in that one moment to produce a full field of experience have never occurred in that specific totality before and will never happen like that again. Some of the aspects of experience might feel similar to things we've felt in the past, but the rest of the elements that are also present in that moment occuring with it haven't also been there before, so it is actually new and fresh each time. When viewed like this it’s really quite awe-inspiring and magical. It is a continuity of living. And it makes you get a sense of how misguided clinging and aversion are.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Ha! emoticon 

"When viewed like this it’s really quite awe-inspiring and magical. It is a continuity of living. And it makes you get a sense of how misguided clinging and aversion are."

emoticon I would find even this as a "fancy" way of going about it and what others on the path might read as "oh shit, that is exactly how I should experience awakening" emoticon 
All this "magical and awe-inspiering" is also subject to Anicca and gets ripped a brand new a-hole each time we think Thats It emoticon emoticon 


All this stuff means nothing without the non-magical and meh-inspiering and WTF stuff thats part of This ever chaging shapes. "We are fucked" is as close as it gets really (or not, you know, I dont know) emoticon or the way some folks here say "Oh, shit !!!" seems fitting emoticon 
I mean this stuff, the experience, can go far deeper than we humans can even dream off. Maybe infinite ... ... ... ... 
I mean, what are we doing here? emoticon How far is far enough? When can this "dancer" go to rest and give up dancing? Maybe the dancer can find that other "tibetan practice" to maybe get a bit deeper ... just a bit more, ... to the next level of "deep/all inclusive/sense the true nature of mind that can't be seen" emoticon How deep is deep enough to give up already emoticon 


Sorry Im in a funky mood again emoticon I should probably rest as I havent slept that well last night.

Best wishes to you! 


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Steph, modified 9 Months ago.

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Right, I wasn't suggesting that the way people experience life should be awe-inspiring and magical all the time. Far from it... because obviously yes, you're right, there'd be alot of craving and aversion wrapped up in an expectation like that. I was more speaking broadly that I think it's really fucking cool to reflect upon the fact that whatever is happening in your full experience is impossible to replicate or change. Regardless of whether you're in despair or feeling just meh, or whatever - the totality of your experience in each moment isn't simply the feeling of meh'ness - there's tons of other things happening via all the sense doors at the same time.. and so the meh'ness is just one tiny piece of the puzzle. This isn't to say you should not want to feel meh or try to push that away, but it's still fascinating to me that it's only part of the picture of what you're experiencing. The aversion comes when you either want to blow up the meh to being the majority of the picture of that moment of experience (ignoring all the other things that are simultaneously happening).. or conversely, if you're being ignorant and try to ignore the feeling of meh'ness and blow the other things you're experience out of proportion as a way to repress that single meh aspect of the experience. The middle way, if you will - the level'ing of the playing field of all sensations and aspects of experience being equal.
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Nicely said, and when ecperience is experienced in that complete, neither pushing nor pulling away, there is indeed something awesome about it but in a very non intense and quiet way, in fact it's beyokd quiet since there is nothing that is not part of the completeness including the reaction...... And that's where we touch on enlightened activity, isn't it ? 

Papaji, just as an fyi, aversion to specific practices and doubt in their usefulness and general fedupness with anyone telling me what i should be meditating on or doing was basically the core of my DN in panditarama lumbini. It would get pretty intense... It still comes about some days , in a small version, and i've learned to recognize those thoughts and feelings as hey, these panditarama lumbini thought loops!!!

Maybe that's not what's happening at all here, i dot know emoticon just wanted to mention it.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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"when ecperience is experienced in that complete, neither pushing nor pulling away, there is indeed something awesome about it but in a very non intense and quiet way, in fact it's beyokd quiet since there is nothing that is not part of the completeness including the reaction...... And that's where we touch on enlightened activity, isn't it ? "

That's all good stuff and certainly happens as such. What I wonder is if this "enlightened activity" is permanent or if indeed is also subject to Anicca? emoticon I feel there is benefit in talking about this so folks on this path don't hope for some version of awakening that is permanent and uneffected by Anicca and Dukkha. Yes, even if sense of self is not there this mammal seems to suffer still and impermanence still is ripping UNLESS there is no self-validation and reflection taking place but only profound engagement with objects arising and passing. Meaning if there is constant profound engagement non stop during conscious lifeing then even Anicca nor Dukkha seems an issue as we can see in our on cushion experience. But I can't see how this is possible to transfer into off cushion lifeing with all the interactions and stuff happening. 

Ok I will stop now as we need to think about dinner emoticon I hope you can see what I'm after here. 

p.s. I will not read through what I wrote now and will wonder about it later emoticon I hope i didn't say something offending emoticon that is not my intent. 
I will press publish now and hope this to bring some good stuff about. 

EDIT; I just read through what I wrote. What a bunch of rubbish emoticon 
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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lol
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Going for COVID testing today. I've had this throat soarness for several month now so wonder if it's meditation related or else. If it's not Corona then going to doctors to do other checks. 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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so what's the diagnosis?

Did the doctor say, "This is IT"?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Results within 48 hours as they are not yet sure if this is it! 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Good luck on your diagnosis, Papa Che.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thanks Chris! 

Just got results and I do not have Corona. 
Now it's up to my doctor to look up this throat and see what's up with it. 
At least I will know if this is something serious or just a meditation related sensation (stuck energy, chakras, 3C's and the rest). 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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First test shows high blood preassure. Doc can't see anything in the upper throat and is sending me to a specialist to stick some tube through my nose into the throat. Sounds like lots of fun. 
Next week gotta give blood samples and need to measure blood preassure at home for 3 days. 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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... sending me to a specialist to stick some tube through my nose into the throat. Sounds like lots of fun. 

Been there, done that. I once had them stick tubes in both ends. They did at least use a mild sedative/aneasthetic, which made me forget all about everything while they did the awful deed.

Best wishes and good luck!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thanks! emoticon Yeah sounds like fun times emoticon 


Just to log a bit; 

I decided to sit a 45er this morning and do some freestyle noting aloud just to see a bit closer what's happening. 

Body stiffness in the right side with preassure in the top of the skull going down into the brain, sore throat right side, stiff neck right side, shoulder blade right side. 

Heat in the body almost throughout even while the murk took over the open eyes visuals. The usual lava lamp dark blobs in the periphery trying to get into the center but never succeed. Center vanishing. 

One curious thing happened at the same time. There was a needle sharp itch on the right side of the back and softer itch on top of left side of head which turned quickly into bubbling sensation (note right side of top of the head has an unpleasant preassure pressing down into the skull) and a unpleasant insect crawling sensation on the left side of neck (mind image of a small disgusting spider). 
Such various experiences indicate different Nana phenomena in different body parts and all within a few seconds or less apart. 

Ear frequency was high pitch (still is). 

There was aversion towards silence. I mean there was my loud voice and even the ear high pitch frequency but this felt not enough. There was desire for hearing birds, wind, cars passing and none of it was happening. Was looking at that aversion and also looking at this practice of looking at all that. It's just a train of experiences and no knowing what's arising next. Hopeless to assume anything really. 

Towards the end there came boredom which had some restless to it so I continued standing meditation. Alarm rang a few minutes after this. 


Couple of nights ago I've had a nasty dream. It was a nightmare which woke me up and I had to get up to "shake it off" a bit. I dreamt of being in our toilet and saw large holes in the corner wall as if something ate its way through it. Then a swarm of thin insects swarmed out of it, mantis like with needle like legs stinging me all over the body. I started shaking them off ... woke up. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Noting practice clearly shows how this leads to that and that to this ... suddenly all starts to make perfect sense! 

Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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Che, so glad you don't have COVID-19. Sorry about the HBP. Good luck on the test!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thanks Sam emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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My partner asked me yesterday to consider stopping to use chewing tobacco so I did throw it all into the bin. 

Today experiencing all the fine stuff from abstinence. Spacey feel in the focus/headspace , avoidance of some sad feelings mixed with the jerky urge to grab the tobacco. There is also this urge to consume something, the spit is forming in the mouth, and there is desire to swallow something. 

There certainly is hiding of some feelings behind that numbing nicotine. There will be no real healing unless one stops with such numbing. Nicotine and other intoxicated stuff is Ignorance/Avoidance.
Btw, now without nicotine I seem to crave more coffe and snacks so holding it down on that front as well. 

Making myself cut the path in our forest as it's not yet finished. Also using the stationary motion bike to help sweat out crap. 

Next week going to visit an Otolaryngologists to check my throat but need to do Covid check again as per regulations in case one is to visit a doctor. Testing is required 2 days before the meeting with the doc. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Day two without nicotine. Very agonizing pain under the right shoulder blade to the point of me not being able to put on my jacket or pick up my son. 
The spacey lost mind state looking for "something" is rather there all day. There is short in and outbreathing. Lots of Desire for coffee and snacks of any kind. I say no to snacks (I do take raw pumpkin seeds) but I let go into the coffee. 
Low and high frequencies in the ears. Lots of pulsating vibrations in hands and arms as if these are ripples. Actually I can sense those in the lower back and buttocks too. It's as if the attention also has this rippling character. 

Not in the best of moods generally speaking. Absolutely no desire to sit and meditate. Like, fuck meditation I want nicotine instead!!! I'm such a sad bunch of rippling sensations! emoticon 
Olivier, modified 9 Months ago.

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Hang in there papa che, the nice thing about nicotine is that the withdrawal symptoms don't last very long, only two-three days ! (and they are worsened by our expectations that they will be really bad) you've got this.
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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I'm pulling for you buddy! Hang in there! Soon you will be free of this stuff
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thanks lads! 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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emoticon
Ride it through, Papaji! You can do it.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Day 3 of the D-Day! It ain't a pretty sight. Sense of loss is great and overwhelming. So many selves are dying on this hungry ghosts battlefield in form of jerky urges . That stiff pain under the right shoulder blade feels like a sharp shrapnel! Throat feels like a dried out water hose.
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Balint Pinczes, modified 9 Months ago.

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You are doing a great job. Give yourself a treat and celebrate in whatever form you can. Maybe you could even go easy on the cookie ban emoticon Anyways, we are rooting for you, Mate.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Cheers mate! emoticon
Much appreciate the support from you all! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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I think it's a day 4. I mean of no nicotine consumption. 

Image space has a sense of rapid zooming in and going in and in and then it's suddenly zoomed out again then zooming in and in and in aaaand zoomed out again. This goes fast. It's pulse like. If I'm to guess this would the way hypnosis works in the mind. Seems like it. As if we hypnotize ourselves with certain habitual patterns. 

Certain things trigger hunger for nicotine. Usually after food and when "relaxing" with coffee. 
There is a clear arising of a jerky image idea to go for the nicotine (go into bodily action). 

Lots of sensations in the throat. It's missing something. There is something there stuck. 

Will try and sit tomorrow and see closer what's going on. 

Good night! 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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emoticon

Hang tough, mate. You've got music to make.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Mind images of me going to the car driving to the shop and buying some delicious chewing tobacco! 

Lots of preassure in the head. Saliva being produced like crazy. In the seeing there is this pulsating sense of some ... hypnosis like feel. Don't know how to describe this one. 
Loosing focus easily. I even drove on the wrong side of the road today. Luckily it was in the countryside and no traffic. 

It's getting worse. And it's day 5? 
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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It's getting worse. And it's day 5? 

Hang in there! It will be over soon!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Good man Sam emoticon Im not giving up! It feels like shit being slave to such a habit. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Today is all in the solid body agony. Fuck me! Agony! 

The usual right side of body pressure going from top of the skull into the brain, behind the eye don into the throat then under the shoulder blade. 

Very heavy feeling mentally. I wish not to get out of bed but when I do lay down train of some memories arise in no particular order. Some people I knew and some I only recently saw and some strange unfolding thoughts. Crazy house in here. 

And on top of it this bodily agony crushing down. 

Day 7 without nicotine. There is craving in the evening mostly. However there is more to this than just nicotine as such. 

Im trying to fast walk 2x30 minutes in our forest. 
Been at the doc for blood tests and tomorrow doing that through the nose throat test and after will meet with my doc to show me all results and discuss what next. 
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Chris Marti, modified 9 Months ago.

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Hang in there! You got this.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Was at two doctors today;
the first one sticked some long thing down my nose so to look into me throat. He said its not cancer emoticon but it is some sort of harmless Candida fungus. Will pick up meds for it and start with treatements ASAP as it is irritating.

Doc number 2 said my blood test shows that Im a healthy horse with slightly high colesterol but nothing to worry about as it went down since last time we checked. Also the blood preassue is just above the normal so stopping with nicotine and having more daily body motion will fix that.

I havent tested what this stiffness under the shoulder blade, neck and in the top of the skull is but I dont care and will blame POI for it.

Back to treating these conditions with meds, body motion and noting meditation. And yes, staying away from nicotine! (day 8 and counting)

Thanks for your support ya all emoticon 
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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Sounds like good news from the doctors. Just got to hang in there. A lot of us have you in teir thoughts.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thank you Sam! I hope you are doing ok considering your health situation mate! I wish I could find more wise words to tell you my friend but they fail me. I wish I could take away suffering from beings but this seems like a fools hope emoticon What can we do? Be there for each other and ride the wave as best as we can, together and yet all alone on our personal fragile dhamma rafts adrift on the vast ocean of samsara emoticon 

May you have the strenght needed for it all mate!
Best wishes!
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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"What can we do? Be there for each other and ride the wave as best as we can, together and yet all alone on our personal fragile dhamma rafts adrift on the vast ocean of samsara"

Yes, my friend, be there for each other. I'm hanging in there.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 9 Months ago.

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Way to go on the nicotine man. Another reason to be inspired by your log. Keep it up!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thanks lads! Yes day 10 I think it is. Still getting those jerky mind moves towards the nicotine urge but that's about it. Trying to occupy my mind with other stuff like music and playing with my son, going out for walk with my dog, clean up the house. 

But yeah I think this nicotine thing is possible to be rid off and stop. There are feelings of misery and sadness arising with that tearing sensation around eyes but that too passes away. 

Evenings feel the worse I find but again it's not permanent and does pass then arises again and passes and so on. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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My apologies for my reply sounding too personal as in directed to you emoticon I reacted more to the general way we practitioners place certain awakened experiences as the "right ones" only failing to see that they too are but yet another experience. 

What I was after is;
"The middle way, if you will - the level'ing of the playing field of all sensations and aspects of experience being equal."

Is this "middle way and experience being equal" subject to Anicca or is it actually a permanent state of awakeness? Is awakening a permanent state or is also subject to Anicca? emoticon Basically can we win this fight by getting that "being equal middle way" or will this also be ripped off by Anicca? emoticon 

If so then why would I favor that "middle way and all experiences being equal" experience over any other like an itch. Again emoticon I'm not attacking here just wondering about this with a friend emoticon 

Again my apologies for my reply sounding rude. Was not meant to be that way. 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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Steph:
Papa Che Dusko:

...and yet to me whats most precious is This unfolding in all its good and bad forms. What else can there be? Chasing new fresh experiences to feel more alive? To feel like one is not behind all those "advanced" members on this forum or elsewhere? Live up to your "attainments"? What?

I actually find all this to be rubish and is only giving newer members/meditators lots of wrong ideas (as in "I also have to have that experience").

Life is already happening ... don't miss it emoticon its a good human life. 

Honestly, you really nailed it with this. This is exactly what it is and something I've been appreciating more and more. This unfolding in all its unique and special ways. All of it. Something I wrote the other day that I think might click with you:

One of the biggest errors of focusing on limited aspects of experience (or to connect with what you're saying here, Che, people clinging to how advanced they feel or having FOMO) - like a particular sensation you want more of, or to repress, or get rid of - is that this is ignorant of the totality of experience. While one may want to try to focus on and grasp one thing that feels pleasant or push away something that seems unpleasant, it’s just one aspect of the wider field and it’s impossible to get more or less of that exact sensation or replicate it or delete it. There are countless things that have to come together to produce the totality of what someone experiences via all sense doors in any given moment. It’s like a ballet that comes together instantaneously because of all the elements simultaneously present in that dance. All those countless conditions, which we can never fully know the extent of, coming together in that one moment to produce a full field of experience have never occurred in that specific totality before and will never happen like that again. Some of the aspects of experience might feel similar to things we've felt in the past, but the rest of the elements that are also present in that moment occuring with it haven't also been there before, so it is actually new and fresh each time. When viewed like this it’s really quite awe-inspiring and magical. It is a continuity of living. And it makes you get a sense of how misguided clinging and aversion are.

Papa Che, what part of "Honestly, you really nailed it with this. This is exactly what it is and something I've been appreciating more and more. This unfolding in all its unique and special ways. All of it," did you not understand to be a loving and direct expression of simpatico, camaraderie, and appreciation?
Papa Che

"When viewed like this it’s really quite awe-inspiring and magical. It is a continuity of living. And it makes you get a sense of how misguided clinging and aversion are."


emoticon I would find even this as a "fancy" way of going about it and what others on the path might read as "oh shit, that is exactly how I should experience awakening" emoticon 
All this "magical and awe-inspiering" is also subject to Anicca and gets ripped a brand new a-hole each time we think Thats It emoticon emoticon 


All this stuff means nothing without the non-magical and meh-inspiering and WTF stuff thats part of This ever chaging shapes. "We are fucked" is as close as it gets really (or not, you know, I dont know) emoticon or the way some folks here say "Oh, shit !!!" seems fitting emoticon 
I mean this stuff, the experience, can go far deeper than we humans can even dream off. Maybe infinite ... ... ... ... 
I mean, what are we doing here? emoticon How far is far enough? When can this "dancer" go to rest and give up dancing? Maybe the dancer can find that other "tibetan practice" to maybe get a bit deeper ... just a bit more, ... to the next level of "deep/all inclusive/sense the true nature of mind that can't be seen" emoticon How deep is deep enough to give up already emoticon 


Sorry Im in a funky mood again emoticon I should probably rest as I havent slept that well last night.

Best wishes to you! 

Papaji. do you really think you are the only one who has looked into the abyss and the fathomless horror? Steph has, I've seen her talk about it. You've had a comrade bleed out in your arms, she's seen a vast dusty plain of endless boredom unrelieved by meaning, love, or joy. Who's to say who has more nerve and more courage, turning with fresh resolve to face the ever changing shapes of this exquisite shit storm? You've been in a black phase and her instinct is to try to show you she's with you, and to offer an angle of her own experience with some light in it. That's called love and compassion, where I come from. The proper response might be something like, "Thank you." Or maybe, "I love you too."



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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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"That's called love and compassion, where I come from. The proper response might be something like, "Thank you." Or maybe, "I love you too." "

Fuck you Tim! xxx emoticon emoticon 
Tim Farrington, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thank you. I love you too. emoticon
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Steph, modified 9 Months ago.

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"exquisite shitstorm" - Tim

That's so good. I love that. Tim, the other day I was watching an episode of what might be one of the best TV shows of my lifeteime, "The West Wing". The episode was entitled "Shibboleth" and in it, one Josiah Bartlett was talking with a Chinese refugee named Jhin-Wei who was fleeing religious persecution to come to the US.. essentially trying to figure out if he was really a man of the Christian God, or simply looking to come to the US with that as a front. Anyway, Jhin-Wei says that the veracity of his claims couldn't be measured by recitals of factual info from the Bible... but that Faith is the true Shibboleth. Buddhism too, requires faith as a measure of Shibboleth too, I find. Enduring the exquisite shitstorm of practice and life with the ardent faith that one day it can be seen as nothing other than its exquisite shitstormness - no more, no less.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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This new forum upgrade seems to be difficult to navigate so I will take a break from the forum until its fixed. Im not a tech so cant offer any help sorry emoticon 

Quick update;

day 14 (i think) off nicotine and it still in the unpleasant realm but its being treated the same way as anything elese ... THISNESS UNFOLDING as its changing faces, voices, feelings, sensations, perceptions ... ... ... 

I could go on about what this nicotine dependency means but in truth its same as yet abother itch on the nose. It really is. I could go on about and make an important thing about it but why would I do that?

So all good, or not, emoticon I dont know. I still do my daily walks in the forest. 

Lets hope this forum gets fixed soon! Best wishes to all!
Sam Gentile, modified 9 Months ago.

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I'm glad you're doing well on your nicotine withdrawal.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago.

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Thank you Sam! emoticon 

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