Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

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Griffin, modified 1 Month ago.

Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 139 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
Is it possible to extract some kind of useful pragmatic techniques from "you are already there" schools, to help you in sustaining mindfulness during the day? Some kind of noticing the "pleasantness" of "already being awakened": tuning into the enjoyable aspects of being aware in order to foster the motivation to remain mindful? E.g. intentionally noticing ways in which mindfulness makes you suffer less, moment to moment.

I am asking this because, when you just do classic noting, it can make you tired and lose the motivation or kind of forget "the point".I am talking about something that can be used both by beginners and experienced practitioners.

I know that there is a chapter on this in MCTB, but my question comes from a different angle, mainly concerning practical off-the-cushion possibilities.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 1661 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
To Awaken. In each moment. To Remember to awaken. So many mind moments in a moment how to know them all? 

To lock sharp on each moment seems impossible. How then to go about it? 

Back off. Back off. Back off until there is no more footing left. Drop into the dream unfolding. 

p.s. my apologies for blabbing here emoticon I hope someone with serious answer will chime in.
However I would suggest to focus more on the meditation practice of noting and keep strengthening the attention on cushion by not losing the thread of noting. It's no problem to be more loose off cushion. 
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 1505 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I like to ask myself the following question:

How could my experience be any different from what it is right now?

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​It doesn't matter what the experience is - pleasant or unpleasant, relaxed or stressful, mindful or lost in thought - this question immediately reminds me that there is nothing but the present moment. It's impossible to be anywhere else but right here, right now with whatever experience is arising. I find that this kills the dissatisfaction due to the craving to be anywhere else but the present moment, or for the current experience to be any different from what it is.
Jazz Muzak, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 32 Join Date: 9/27/19 Recent Posts
If approached as a normal teaching/technique, "you are already there" or "this is already it" could be a useful pointing for someone in the realm of late 3rd path, I think. When the person approaches the point where they've truly given it absolutely all they can give for as long as possible and has pushed and pushed and pushed and is REALLY ready to just give up and drop it, I can see the utility of telling them, "hey, maybe check out how this already is."

Kind of like the practice where you deliberately ramp up effort in practice and then drop effort, over and over, to understand how effort functions. In much the same way getting things as high-fidelity and extreme as possible, then saying "okay but let's stop and just appreciate THIS", there's a utility there, I think.

There seems to be a running theme in people who get to late 3rd path and push and push and push and push and eventually just "give up", and something about giving up showing them something essential about this as it already is and always was.

​​​​​​​What do you think?
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 950 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Griffin
Is it possible to extract some kind of useful pragmatic techniques from "you are already there" schools.

Yes.

The question, "Am I enlightened?" is like a kind of koan - a trick question that confuses you. It tricks you into thinking about self and channels your mind into craving.

I find it is more useful to think of enlightenment as a continuous graudal process, not like a series of steps where you have to step up on the first step (stream entry) to experience any benefit, but like a ramp where any level is possible.  (This view is supported by the fact that many well respected teachers have said that it is possible to be awakened without recognizing it - see the previous link for a more detailed explanation). In that case everyone has some level of enlightement and you can get more by observing the origin and cessation of suffering in your mind. In this view, milestones like stream entry are arbitrary, meaningless, and unhelpful.

The "you are already there" view helps people to see through the koan "Am I awakened" so they are not tricked by it into thinking about self or craving for enlightenment. They can spend more time actually observing the origin and cessation of suffering which is best done in daily life and less time looking for enlightenment which they may already have a substantial amount of. It helps people recognize when someone is trying to sell them something they already have.
Derek2, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 180 Join Date: 9/21/16 Recent Posts
“You are already there” is third gear. Noting is first gear. 
T DC, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 389 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Griffin Is it possible to extract some kind of useful pragmatic techniques from "you are already there" schools, to help you in sustaining mindfulness during the day? Some kind of noticing the "pleasantness" of "already being awakened": tuning into the enjoyable aspects of being aware in order to foster the motivation to remain mindful? E.g. intentionally noticing ways in which mindfulness makes you suffer less, moment to moment.

​​​​​​​Sure, and it sounds like you are already right on the money.  When the whole actualism thing came out, I think many people, including myself were influenced by the HAIETMOBA approach to mindfulness, which involves, as you say, tuning into the enjoyable aspects of our present moment experience vs just grinding away noting sensations.  

The shortcoming of the HAITMOBA actualism approach is that the explicit purpose was to trigger satori type experiences (the PCE) which inevitably leads to unnecesary and frusterating grasping and striving.  However, if you can use that present moment appreciation to enhance your mental state and help keep you from burning out on mindfulness, while still maintaining a clear momentum of mindfulness then all the better.  

​​​​​​​I don't know if the goal of the "you are already enlightened" schools is to back-door their way into deeper states of awareness through a sort of reverse psychology-mindfulness approach, or just simply to appreciate the present moment, but taking that idea and applying it to the quest for progressive attainment does seem very much in the pragmatic dharma spirit. 
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Griffin, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 139 Join Date: 4/7/18 Recent Posts
Honestly, I had never completely understood the HAIETMOBA technique... Everyone is describing it in a different way, and most descriptions are poetically ambiguous. In Daniel's text on actualism, he lists 5 or 6 different instructions that are covered by HAIETMOBA. But I get confused when I am instructed to "juggle" between so many different intentions...
T DC, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Pragmatic approach to "you are already there" philosophy?

Posts: 389 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Ya as far as I understood it the goal was to sensually enjoy your way into a kind of breakthrough experience.  Actuallism was not the easiest thing to understand though, so it's not surprising there are many different takes on it.  ;-)  You may be better off with the 'enlightenment now' schools' approach.

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