The end of questions

Mike Smirnoff, modified 1 Month ago.

The end of questions

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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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So now that you experience God then the next logical step/practice is to vispassanize it to death? emoticon
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Mike Smirnoff
Ni Nurta -- No more questions and no more steps.
True Vipassana begins when you are quote on quote "done" and don't even feel like you need it but instead do it because you know it is the right thing to do.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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What is Mu? 
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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What is Mu? 
Too bad personal messages do not work.
Discussing meaning of "Mu" wouldn't feel right on public forum emoticon
Tim Farrington, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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All I was interested in was the truth of the nature of existence, and I have come to that to the extent that my faculties allow me.  At this point, I can live my life just by `Whatever is God's will' -- the experience of Brahman/God that I have in the Center of my being.

His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.
Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuP6z1gKrQM&t=214s

God bless you, amigo, and best wishes for the road test.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
Mike...

I've no wish to get involved in questions about realism, although I'd like to point out that I said the same thing as yourself when i said:
Space-time is a framework we use to understand what's around us, that's all.

(Just to be clear on my views, i think there is an external reality, else i'd be the only one here, a self encompassing solpisist that is the entire universe.
Talk about navel gazing. lol.)


However, you say:
I experience Brahman right in the Center of my heart area

What a tease!.  Is this a constant, enduring thing? You may think that it's indescribable, but if you were to try to express that experience in words what would it be like?  What do you experience in other places?  There's ways to approach this, you can try to describe it, say something obliquely that gives some clues, describe what  it's not (like the artists exercise of drawing negative spaces), and many others...

I'm not trying to argue here, just wonder what you are saying.

If i was arguing, then there's the standard DhO response 'so that was the A&P?", but let's not got there.


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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Mike Smirnoff
Genero --
Read the Brihadaranyak Upanishad, you will understand what Brahman in the cavity of the heart means.
Regarding A&P, etc, I'm not interested in this terminology.  Ingram has categorized the experiences of a lot of people as A&P -- I have not much reason to believe he knows what he is talking about. Pretty much every great spiritual experience in non-Buddhist traditions ends up being classified as A&P by him. As I see it, he has no evidence for what he is saying. Descartes, white light God experiences -- all are classified as A&P by Ingram without evidence.
The interresting question is: do you have any evidence that what you experience is actually real God?

I do not even ask for evidence to prove it to someone else but just to have certainty yourself.
It is not like it is not possible to induce god-like experiences you know...

Besides what interest me is what questions that you did have did God answer so you do not have any more questions?
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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oh i tried ever so hard to do quotes propely and it got all muxed ip. So sorry!
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Have a nice time in god realm Mike.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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God in the center of the heart is a very refined state, maybe the best state there is. But it's still a state, so it's impermanent.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Who said anything about an argument?!

Listen Mike - I feel for you, I really do. I've been there and it's a tough fucking cloud to come down from, I'll give you that. I sincerely wish it didn't have to be this way, but unfortunately it is - the only constant is impermanence.

That's the problem with god realm, it's fundamentally rooted in ignorance. You have something that you think everybody else wants, or something that other people think they want. And even if they don't drag you down, time is against you. That's why god realm is right next to hell realm, hence the defensiveness.

The only way out of this mess is to stop fighting impermanence, to accept it for what it is. Samsara is nibbana, to use a cliche. That's all I've got for you unfortunately. 
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Kind of you mike to point me in the right direction but I think I'm not ready for the Brihadaranyak Upanishad (987 pages, see here: https://holybooks.com/brihadaranyaka-upanishad/)

 I. Om. The head of the sacrificial horse is the dawn, its eye the sun, its vital force 1 the air, its open mouth the fire called Vaisvanara, and the body of the sacrificial horse is the year. Its back is heaven, its belly the sky, its hoof the earth, its sides the four quarters, its ribs the intermediate quarters, its members the seasons, its joints the months and fortnights, its feet the days and nights, its bones the stars and its flesh the clouds. Its half-digested food is the sand, its blood-vessels the rivers, its liver and spleen the mountains, its hairs the herbs and trees. Its forepart is the ascending sun, its hind part the descending sun, its yawning is lightning, its 1 Represented by the breath. X. I. I.) BJ.lHADARAl;lYAKA UPAN1$AD 9 shaking the body is thundering, its making water is raining, and its neighing is voice. The head of the sacrificial horse, i.e. one fit for a sacrifice, is the dawn, a period of about three quarters of an hour just before sunrise. The particle 'vai' recalls something well-known, here, the time of dawn.


... and it continues in that way...

​​​​​​​I guess you need some prep first!


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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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What is Mu? 
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Josef Kyle Chan, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Nothing . No .

I think that it is from a koan :
A monk asked Zhaozhou Congshen, a Chinese Zen master (known as Jōshū in Japanese), "Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?" Zhaozhou answered, "Wú" (in Japanese, Mu)

​​​​​​​
What is Mu? 

Or is that question also a koan ? hahahaha
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

Posts: 618 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Nothing . No .
That is the typical explanation you find on the web.
Better answer would be something like "non applicable".
This whole class of answers is however nowhere near Zen-ness that good Zen Koan deserves.

The real answer is "Joshu's dog"

Why did the monk ask the question?
Does the provided answer neatly and precisely answers all the the questions without saying yes or no or spending more words than absolutely necessary?

This is the barrier of Zen. If you pass through it you will see Joshu face to face. Then you can work hand in hand with the whole line of patriachs. Is this not a pleasant thing to do?

In any way just my opinion and I do not even have Zen based processor let alone any real Zen training so please keep going at it as usual ;)
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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What's for dinner?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Chris Marti
What's for dinner?

​​​​​​​Mu! 
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Mike, I could ask you a bunch of questions about what you posted here. Not to argue, but to help you think things through a little more. I think you have some deep insights that we could compare notes on.

But since you don't want me to, I won't.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Mike Smirnoff

If realism is wrong -- and this is the view that I take -- meaning that time, space, causality are just constructs of the human mind -- the view of the Upanishads and the Vedanta -- then there is no re-birth, and there is nothing to be done, anyway. I take this view based on logic and reasoning, and also in part, based on seeing inside myself how the mind creates time, causality and space.

Either way, I am done!

Thus, there was nothing to be done in the first place, though it required me a lot of work to come to this conclusion.

Intuition part:

I experience Brahman right in the Center of my heart area, as stated in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. Maybe this is the real reason why the questions have ended. 

Maybe there will be more experiences in the future. The whole thing is a mystery because there is the experience of time when there is no time. However, the questions have ended. I will report back with time as to if it stays that way.

Thankfully, I have never had the fetish of one meditation experience or the other -- be it Jhana or Vipassana or anything else. All I was interested in was the truth of the nature of existence, and I have come to that to the extent that my faculties allow me.  At this point, I can live my life just by `Whatever is God's will' -- the experience of Brahman/God that I have in the Center of my being.

As in my previous post, I'm not interested in arguing with you. This is my experience. I might respond if I find a worthwhile enough response to respond to, but mostly I will keep silent.

Re-reading, I realize that I agree with most of what you say Mike! I think I just reacted poorly to your stance and I'm sorry for that. I respect your wish to remain silent, but I really do hope you stick around because I've learned a lot from you and enjoyed our interactions.
All the best,
George
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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I think A&P diagnosis is important because after A&P there is inevitably DN. This is actually very good example. Some experience like being enlightened or otherwise having deep realizations and knowing everything that should be known coupled with already worsening mood. It will get worse, much worse!

And unfortunately here I would suspect rather strong denial. Also complete misunderstanding about what A&P diagnosis is about.

In reality A&P can have significant realizations and many of them might on their own be very positive and by itself do not cause DN. What causes DN is overdoing the whole excitement and pushing nervous system overboard without having any means to bring it to EQ again. Person experiences something pleasant, notices they can make it even more pleasant and exciting, then there is a thought that this well has infinite bottom and supply of water in it, pushes as hard as they possibly can, it works so they just continue. Then nervous system gets tired, person feels they feel worse but can still get pleasure out of it and pushes harder, nervous system literally crashes and the real fun begins. I have been there few times myself and it took some of these cycles to figure out how to recognize this pattern in time and how to not have to go through whole Dark Night. The most important thing is to stop doing and relying things which work so well during A&P before nervous system completely crashes from abusing them. It actually doesn't take as long for nervous system to get rest and the whole DN can be avoided. The whole DN pattern is only happening because of clinging to these A&P experiences. Otherwise person can have these without much risk for DN if they are mindful of their nervous system and what they can and should not do at any given time.

So yeah, hopefully right questions will arise in Mike's mind and right ideas which will help him answer them, instead of stupid relief-seeking behavior which has only one ultimate answer to all life's issues...
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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I agree Nin, but speaking from personal experience it's really hard to recognize this kind of thing as A&P when you are in it. I'd had plenty of A&P's before, but they were shorter (few days tops) and more physical (ecstasy, visuals). There was a certain amount of cognitive "wow", but it was mostly still within my existing worldview. When I got sucked into the nondual wormhole it was for weeks-months and I was utterly intellectually convinced that I had THE ONE RIGHT ANSWER and everyone else was deluded (apart from the sages of course). On some level I knew that this wasn't the final answer, because I was aware that I was in a highly charged altered state, but I so desperately wanted it to be THE TRUTH that I was trying to convince myself it would last forever. But the feeling of defensiveness, of having to defend your position at all costs or withdraw, is a real red flag for anyone who is in such states. Pride is a real fucker (eighth fetter) and ignorance (tenth) ... ignorance of the full extent of one's own suffering. emoticon
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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I do not know how it went later but if it lasted for weeks then chances are that there was something good there. Unfortunately the way it typically goes is causing going through DN and it causes aversion to its causes. Whereas for some things this is valid and good thing, for others not quite so. Either way my recommendation is to go back to failed ultimate solutions and see if anything can be scavenged off them. And of course to not put too many hopes on them in the first place... though we all know how it always go with these things emoticon
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Yeah it was the ultimate failed solution. emoticon​​​​​​​

Ultimate solutions require ultimate problems. I've still got plenty of problems, just not those kind. emoticon
 
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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And I have to say, the comedown wasn't too bad because there were people on here who understood what I was going through and I LISTENED TO THEM. Even though it was uncomfortable and I had to swallow a shitload of pride, it was a big relief in the end. emoticon
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Maybe the solution was bad but not everything about it was.
I had plenty of A&P's and then nasty DN's from clinging to experiences which caused both and after some refinement I still like them.

What I am talking about can be compared to "coffee in the morning was good and made me feel good so I have an idea... let's replace all water I drink with coffee!" and after that led to Dark sleepless Night one should not conclude that coffee is terrible and should never be touched again but to finding what caused the issue, what was good, what was bad and what can be done with this stuff overall as to make best use of all available resources. Crude example but somehow when normal things are obvious (well, mostly) then when it comes to things related to mind the isolation of components and thinking about them separately comes much harder.

Just sayin.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

Posts: 1505 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I like that :-)

My comments weren't directed at you, I was hoping that mike was still reading ...
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

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Seems like a good place to wheel out Maha Bua:


At  this  stage  of  the  investigation,  nothing  should  be  taken for  granted;  nothing  in  the  realm  of  conventional  reality  should be  trusted.  Bring  your  focus  deep  into  the  citta  and  let  wisdom take  up  the  challenge.  All  things  that  are  counterfeit  originate in  the  citta.  This  radiance  is  the  most  conspicuous  among  them. It  is  the  ultimate  counterfeit.  Since  you  cherish  and  safeguard it  more  than  anything  else,  you  will  hardly  want  to  interfere with  it.  Within  the  entire  physical  body,  nothing  stands  out  so prominently  as  this  brilliance.  It  provokes  such  a  mesmerizing sense  of  inner  amazement—and,  consequently,  such  a  protective  feeling  of  attachment—that  you  want  nothing  to  disturb  it. There  it  is.  Look  at  it:  it  is  none  other  than  the  supreme  ruler of  the  universe—avijjã.  But  you  don’t  recognize  it.  Never  having  seen  it  before,  you  will  naturally  be  deceived  by  the  radiance you  encounter  at  this  stage.  Later,  when  mindfulness  and  wisdom are  fully  prepared,  you  will  know  the  truth  without  any  need  of prompting.  This  is  avijjã.  The  true  avijjã  is  right  here.  It  is  nothing but  a  mesmerizing  point  of  brilliance.  Don’t  imagine  avijjã  to  be a  demon  or  a  beast;  for  in  truth,  it  is  really  the  most  alluring  and endearing paragon of beauty in the whole world.
True  avijjã  is  very  different  from  what  you  expect  it  to  be. Therefore,  when  you  encounter  avijjã  you  fail  to  recognize  it;  and your  practice  gets  caught  there.  If  you  have  no  teacher  to  advise you  and  point  out  a  way  to  investigate,  then  you  will  be  at  an impasse  for  a  long  time  before  you  realize  its  true  nature  and  can go  beyond  it.  When  you  do  have  a  teacher  to  advise  you  on  how to  proceed,  then  you  can  quickly  understand  the  basic  principle and  strike  decisively  at  that  center  of  radiance  without  putting any  trust  in  it.  You  must  conduct  your  investigation  here  as  you have done with other natural phenomena.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

Posts: 60 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
George and Ni!

when i wrote

"If i was arguing, then there's the standard DhO response 'so that was the A&P?", but let's not got there."

i wasn't suggesting to mike anything of the kind, it was more in an office banter kind of way.  I used to work in an office and people would walk in on occasion remarking how hard they worked, how late they stayed and the response was always ' so another half day then?'  and despite it being a common retort, you could still catch people unawares and have them momentarily spooked before they realised :-)

So i think 'A&P huh? on here is a bit like that, if someone can't take it with a pinch of salt then maybe it's worth investigating.

However I like your comments: DN due to clinging to A&P, i never confronted that thought B4, the story i picked up was 'DN is there so get used to it' so thanks, i can use that.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: The end of questions

Posts: 1505 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
For me, DN was "there" until I realized that I was creating (or at least worsening) it for myself by wrapping my pain up in a personal narrative. I think it's instinctive (for certain people at least) - you talk about your problems and try to understand them first, before really allowing yourself to feel the underlying emotions. And then of course each time you dig into a deeper level of pain the whole process repeats. DN still rears it's head from time to time, but it's just much more obvious to me now 'oh look what I'm doing to myself', so it's not the big drama it was before.

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