"Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

"Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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The other log too long hence this one. Also it seems fitting as I have altered the practice and now practice both  "Look how its ..." and Tonglen as described to me by Shargrol in my previous "Look how its ..." log.

I will not say much about the practice itself or possible realisations or experiences until I look more into it. 
In general there is lots of bodily stiffnesses like neck, shoulder, lower back, this causing sense of agony, lots of insect kind of skin sensations (both sharp bites and disqusting crawling), also during the day sudden surge of energy and is often in form of sexual lust. All these cycle during the day.

Thats all for now.

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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Let me copy paste in here this form of Tonglen by shargrol;

"There is a version of tonglen that I highly recommend:

1. Find some aspect of your present experience that is lacking, is difficult, is suffering, etc.
2. Feel that experience. It can help to name it.
3. State the intention: "if there are any other beings out there that are experiencing this and having too much difficulty with it, may I experience it for them. May their experience come to me. May I fully experience it with no resistance. May they find relief."
4. Feel that experience again. Soak in it, dwell in it. Also imagine the joy the other feels being free of it and how they can gain perspective/insight because they now aren't overwhelmed by it. Go back and forth between you and other.
5. After a period of time that feels right, drop the intention and say, "May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy."

And then repeat the whole cycle again when it feels right.

The benefit of this practice is you are not taking on anything new, you're experiencing what you are already experiencing, but you are taking on what you are already experiencing with a much deeper intention that goes beyond yourself.  And it ends with a reaffirmation that we're all worthy of peace, awakening, and happiness.

Give it a try. And feel free to disregard if it doesn't seem like a good match."
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spatial, modified 3 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko Let me copy paste in here this form of Tonglen by shargrol;


​​​​​​​Ooh, this is a good one.
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Kaloyan Stefanov, modified 4 Months ago.

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I find this Tonglen very interesting, many thanks to you and Shargol for sharing!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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You are welcome emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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Update;

Time for intervention!

Last night was very tense! I was in such agony due to all the stiffness, which triggered need for tobacco to such extrent that I was almost on my way into the car and go buy some! However I did not leave the house and just let all agony and this junky craving wreck what needs to get wrecked. 

This morning was similar so I thought "Intervention time"! and sat a 45er doing full on freestyle noting aloud. Did a few times mixture of "Look how its ..." and even a few times Tonglen but most of it was fast noting with open eyes fixed on a kasina (small spot on a table infront of me). 

Afte that session stuff camled down alot. I even went ahead and filled up two full trailers with scrap wood, carbord and plastic and drove it off to the local recycling bin. My partner aslo noticed me being less edgy after this session.

Ok, time to re-kindle Noting and mix it up into the practices of "look how its ..." and Tonglen. Noting sure needed as lots of stuff simply feels so fuckong SOLID.
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george, modified 4 Months ago.

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I like that Tonglen practice. I do something similar with my brother and parents, thanks for sharing Dusko!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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Cheers George emoticon Im a stranger to such visualizing practices like Tonglen. Total noob if you will emoticon 

Today back to "Look how it's ... " during my daily walk and certainly feels like the right practice. Even the Tonglen and Noting get into it. "Look how it's practicing, look how it's visualizing, look how it's wishing well etc ..." 

With "look how it's" practice there is no rush. There is a lean back kind of attitude. Zoomed out if you like. spacious like. 
There is also a kind of "not knowing" of what will become. There is this wonder to it. Also realization that all this is arising before it can be noticed or aware off. 

Karma-Wisdom mingling without anyone or anything doing it. 
george, modified 4 Months ago.

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Wow beautiful. No effort required. Everything shows up by itself! I love it because it's freedom!!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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I would call it "momentary relief" rather than freedom emoticon as in my case both Anicca and Dukkha make sure I don't get a chance to make a big deal out of it emoticon 

Utter impermanence applies. 3 Characteristics/Perceptions if you will. 

Back to school. Again and again, and again. Always a beginner. 
george, modified 4 Months ago.

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Yeah I agree with what you're saying, but I'm of the opinion that the momentary freedom is a big deal. Maybe because I'm really new to this, Hahaha.
Yes rinse and repeat! Beginner is a good word : )
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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This Tonglen funny. 

May I experience fully ill will of all the beings in their stead ... 

ill will ... ill will ... ehm ... that charge of previous thoughts and images of ill will is gone once there was this Tonglen intent. It's same with neck stiffness. As soon I desire to experience it fully in their stead it's no longer there. There just be this memory of it as a scrap book material. 

Will do some more observation. It does remind me of Kennets "Listening" Mahamudra a bit. 

Update; 
Oldest son sick hence having sleepless nights for several days now. Feel like I'm hangover through the day. Stiff neck and shoulder blade. Can get surges of drumming frequencies in the hearing. 
Hungry Ghost realm
of desire to consume is often there and some sadness associated with not being able to have it. 

Also Hell Realm evident in form of anger thoughts and fights. As well as Azura of knowing better. 
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago.

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hang in there!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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emoticon will do thank you! 
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Pepe ·, modified 4 Months ago.

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Hope your son gets better soon! Metta for all of you!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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Thank you Pepe! emoticon 
He seems fine today but in the night time high fever happens. He does cough a lot. Will see how it goes tonight. We have tested him for Covid and thankfully it's not it. 

All the best to you and your family! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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Tiny update; 

had time to do 30 minutes Tonglen sitting (usually I practice walking as of late). 

Seems to me that when sitting then the mind goes faster into murk with each Tonglen intention. It takes a few minutes at most and murk with peripheral lava lamp like dynamic movements. Center hazy. Then snapping out of it and murk is gone. 

However at some point the object of Tonglen seemed like it was far far away. I think it was stiffness in this case. It seemed like it was in a different galaxy. Either the being releaved from it or the very stiffness felt in my body.

I will put this in here in case this starts to happen more often. Something about the sense of spaciousness. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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Bodily stiffness, some fear jerk reactions (I've heard something), general unease, thoughts of conflict, off cushion "just don't talk to me" overwhelmed attitude, preassure in the forehead, fantasizing about building a small meditation cabin in our forest and going full on solitude. 

Generally feeling is unpleasant and desire for solitude. 
George S, modified 4 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko
Generally feeling is unpleasant and desire for solitude. 

Oh shit man, I'm having a flashback, back in the trenches with young kids again!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago.

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And I thought my experience of war was the worse emoticon 

No wonder Buddha fucked off into the shrubbery never to return emoticon 
George S, modified 4 Months ago.

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lol, and and he only had one of the little blighters, and servants to do the heavy lifting. didn't even make it to the terrible twos XD But according to the suttas there were no hard feelings and he was a great dad emoticon
george, modified 4 Months ago.

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Lots of love to you Dusko!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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That's very kind of you George emoticon thank you! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Update; 

Practiced Tonglen today and noticed mind blocking at some stage when to say a certain word. 

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings ... ... ehm? ... it blocks each time when about to say "be happy". 

As if it's unable to remember that word! 

So I intended that "if there are beings out there not allowing them selves to be happy may their experience come to me ..." 

There was sadness, stiff emotions, something proudly holding a stance of not showing weakness and not willing to show being hurt, around solar plexsus in the body mostly some preassure or a knot. 

It seems that neck and shoulder blade stiffness has something to do with this not allowing to be happy. It's ok to be free from suffering, even to awaken but for some reason not ok to allow oneself to be truly happy. 


Now it's evening time and right now feeling emotional, easily overwhelmed, feeling towards solitude, even to leave DhO and just be enirely on my own. I think mind wants to go full on monk at this stage but there is no desire for sitting practice at all. Only desire for walking practice in the forest. So I keep at that for now. 

Thank you for reading. May you all be truly happy. 

Edit to add; 
there is a sensation just under the skull on the top of the right side, as if a sand paper is pressing against the skull from the brain. It's not overwhelming but it certainly ain't pleasant. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Getting my ars kicked by this stiff bodily agony! 
Fuck this shit! 

Did a 30 minutes walk half Look How It's and half Tonglen. 

Then I decided to do a 45 min Noting sit. This was so fucking strange. Got caleidoscope like images moving from inside out, one after the other. Then all became hazy then at 35 minutes I totally snapped out of the practice mode, just looking around the room. So I stopped there. 

Then decided to do a Tonglen sit but as soon I sat and intended to do it the body mind begun Ki-breathing instead. I've got surprised at this but let it roll instead of Tonglen. This was 30 minutes. 

After that while minding my sleeping baby I did a Qi Gong session. 

You can tell the mind is trying to find a way out of this suffering agony! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Late evening; 

The stiffness is ... (whispering) gone ... feeling kind of relaxed ... slight excitement in the lower belly ... high pitch nada sound in ears. 

Whatever was done today seems to have resulted in what is now. 

These "interventions" from today did some good. If I'm not in agony I'm generally much nicer towards those around me so it's a very good thing. Gotta think about that. 

Yoga, Qi Gong, excercise, ki-breathing, water, food, whatever. Good stuff. 

Would not wish another DN as it happened back in 2011 and lasted for 8 years! 

This time around let's use the tool box. Gotta be smart emoticon 

May we all be smart and happy! 
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago.

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Hi Papa Che, which qigong set are you practicing? Do you have a youtube link? Just curious.

Here a Taichi warm-up routine, nothing fancy but does the job (neck rolls at 5:23). 

Bruce Kumar Frantzis has a very detail book on how to open up the whole spine: Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body (USD 21). He has other books like "Qigong for the neck, back & shoulder pain", but it's pricey (USD 97) and,  though I haven't read it, probably just recycling stuff from previous books and videos (he has a pushy editorial behind). 

If you have pain in the neck or the upper part of the spine, please don't do zhan zhuang or at least don't let your arms hang off your torso more that 15 cms. 
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago.

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Also, when I had some pain in the upper back, it helped me to you a pillow below my hands when on cushion, so that the  elbows stay below the hands (assuming you hokkai join hands posture). Otherwise, the weight of the arms hang from the upper back.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Hi Pepe! Thanks for the links will check them! 

I used to train Qi Gong with the Wing Chun Kung fu club in Malmö Sweden (2010-2011) We learned 10 "shapes" but I haven't practiced it in a long time so I only remember two of them. However the most important one is called "Turtle" (if I remember correctly) and is very good for the whole back, neck, arms, legs, and there is breathing involved there too. 

They do no videos on this sorry. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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30 minutes walking "Look how its" meditation in the forest
then not timed Qi Gong 
and then 30 minutes Ki-breathing (mindfully of course with all the rest popping here and there)

Generally well being and no issues with stiffness (still there sometimes but very weak), The Nada sound is really there these last two days and very spaceous. Eyes have a slightly tranquilised look to them (in the mirror but also sensation) and also a bit glossy. 

My partner said Im less edgy so thats a good thing as I can also see myself having more tolerance with my lively and rebelious 5 yo boy. Also a VERY good thing emoticon 

Im liking it more and more, the way Kenneth Folk approaches all this conscious lifeing as a Yogi; either you just get the Joke and all is just what it is and will never be anything else but what it is and you totally fine with This as it Is, or Thisness Joke is pissing you off and you do "interventions" against suffering like Jhana, Vipassana, Self-inquiry, 6 Realm Reflections, Yoga, Qi Gong, Ki-breathing, Thai massage, belly dancing, whatever and you usually get better, at least for a while. (remember, Anicca rules this Samsara-Consciousness so nothing lasts)

I also like how Chris keeps repeating "this is a ongoing journey with no end" or something like that. Exactly how I feel about this whole dhamma business stuff/fluff.

Vast is this samsaric ocean made of fabricated views and we all are afloat on our fragile tiny dhammic rafts made with thin air from our nostrils and ropes of fools hope ... ... ... 

Hold tight friends, the fog is approaching!!! !!! !!! emoticon 
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

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Du bist fucked mein freund emoticon​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Indeed. We all are. Some realize it others don't (yet). 

Fucked, yes! By Demon Mara the grand seducer ! 

Banging me hard from behind while dangling a carrot on a stick infront of my nose telling me how this or that could save me, help me, make me more wise, a better yogi, free from the misery of 3C's. 

He keeps banging without Vaseline and laughing out loud and dangling that carrot on a stick. The carrot in form of a Nimitta and Jhana, in form of a melting face and saying "that's it, this is non duality, you want more of this!", in form of an attainment, in form of a teacher and confirmations, in form of hoping, in form of giving up hope, in form of effort and non effort, in form of practice "here, yogi dude, try some Tonglen, then maybe a bit of Mahamudra or Vipassana maybe, ney try some Dzogchen as it's the coolest of all, then you will be an awakened bad ars!" 

All is Demon Mara. We are fools to believe we can win this fight for longer than One Moment! One Moment of Awakening/Non-duality. Then back to the Mara Machine of pain. 

May we all awake to realize Demon Mara banging us hard without even the curtesy to use Vaseline. Motherfucker!!!
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

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You're beginning to sound like one enlightened motherfucker. Here's one to chew on ...

What if the only difference between being enlightened and being unenlightened is thinking there is a difference?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Oh, im a 5th pather bra! emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Did all the interventions as yesterday but today the agonizing stiffness is back, disqust with the memorizing mind, comparing mind, with insect crawling sensations on skin, miserable feelings, desire for utter solitude. 
Yellow Tree, modified 3 Months ago.

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Just wanted to express some gratitude for the fact that you keep updating here while going through some tough shit. Really inspiring to see. Wish I had some wisdom to impart on you to pay you back for what you've given me, but some appreciation will have to do for now. Haha.

Either way, thank you again for updating, very helpful and definitely helping, whether intended to or not.

May you find equanimity in your practice. Much love,
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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You could give me one Snus! emoticon Gawd, thoughts and urges of me starting to Snus again were strong today!!! I'm resisting! Well not really, I'm just too lazy to go back to what I already know so well. That oral consuming satisfaction which never gets satisfied really. Hence we go for two Snus at once emoticon ha! 

​​​​​​​Thank you for dropping by! I do appreciate it! 
Yellow Tree, modified 3 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko
You could give me one Snus! emoticon Gawd, thoughts and urges of me starting to Snus again were strong today!!! I'm resisting! Well not really, I'm just too lazy to go back to what I already know so well. That oral consuming satisfaction which never gets satisfied really. Hence we go for two Snus at once emoticon ha! 

​​​​​​​Thank you for dropping by! I do appreciate it! 


Hahaha

Yeah don't give in to it. It goes 1-2 weeks maximum and then you realize why you quit. I'm trying to taper off. Luckily I move to Greece on Monday and I'll just bring 4 packs of snus and then that's that. I didn't snus for 5 years because I wasn't in Sweden and that was great. Then first day back home last year and I buy a snus. Dammit. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Todays practice; 30 min walking meditation "look how its..." Qi Gong not timed 30 minutes Ki-breathing (purple hazy nimita moved in frames at one stage, separate frames, from inside the head outwordly) The constant dance between the sense of Dukkha and the sense of Yogi. Yogi keeps watching the Dukkha dance change from one form to the next and Yogi adjusts his tools accordingly to counter or deal with the Dukkha, to "get it" and this dance goes on and on until one day Yogi gives up this dance and just lets stuff do itself. However this dance needs to be exhausted and some of us are stuborn moddafuckers willing to dance for years, while others are more wise and just let go of this dancing between Dukkha and Yogi early on.  Im likely the stubborn moddafucker! emoticon 
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

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It might be worth investigating this strategy of being stubborn in more detail. At some point it probably made a lot of sense, maybe it was even necessary for your survival. Maybe it still is. Either way, like any strategy or habit, it will have both benefits and costs.

Or maybe I'm just a nosy moddafucker and should stay out of your business emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Nah you good man! emoticon You are trying to be of benefit to all beings. Me a being so all good here emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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Did one practice inspired by what shargrol suggested. 

I just gave it another spin; 

I would imagine this is my last day or even last moment alive. This very stepping against the soil while walking, the hearing of birds chirping, cool wind against the skin, the stiffness in the neck, mosquitoes trying to land on my face, the sadness felt due to the reasisatiom this might be the last time I am to experience anything etc ... 

Very interesting how all got more beautiful in a way. 

Shargrol wrote; 
​​​​​​​A fun game to play is to look at all tough emotions as they are the "ending" not the "beginning". So for example, let's say I'm using my coffee addiction as practice domain. I could look at each coffee craving as the beginning of a problem, something that will in the future get worse and worse, until I either snap or succeed. That's a lot of pressure to put oneself through on the arising of a single craving. Alternative I could look at each coffee craving as the release or ending of one craving in merely a finite number of cravings. Then each hard craving feeling is a good thing, a great thing to happen because it means I'm getting closer to my goal. It's just a change in mindset but it significantly reduces the interim suffering. 
shargrol, modified 3 Months ago.

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Nice! Yeah, worries/concerns quickly become "right sized" when death draws close and puts it all into perspective and the beauty/sweetness that is always there becomes more obvious...
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

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It sure is an interesting way of seeing intent leading to such results. 

I was practicing Tonglen today and again intent was to experience this stiffness of body and agony instead of other beings and the stiffness and agony would vanish in that open awareness, that open acceptance. 

So if this stiffness agony disappears so fast in accepting wondering awareness , then what does construct it so fast once ignorance takes over?! Something does contract the whole thing into a tight fist like appearance. 

As soon that awareness is not open and wonder like, accepting like, the stiffness agony bodily sensations (story?) is back in "time" again and doing its dukkha-ing. 

Or so it seems. 
shargrol, modified 3 Months ago.

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Yeah, there is a story level and beneath it an "urge" level. The urge level has the same dynamic, but it is pre-verbal, a kind of established reactivity habit that was created over time. (The urge level is faster and more primal than story.)

The "5 Elements" training is an approach that creates a framework for understanding/noticing these super fast pre-verbal reactions and bring them into awareness... where the same sort of alchemal transformation takes place in open, wondering, accepting awareness. 

5 Elements is probably one of the most sophisticated buddhist frameworks, really getting to the subtle heart of the matter. It's what ultimately creates a foundation for true mahamudra/dzogchen/zazen type practices because those are really beyond technique and require a very very sensitive mind that can naturally/instinctually "self-liberate" the very subtle remnants of needless dukka. 

(You won't be surprised, but my favorite version of this is Ken McLeod's. Some free stuff here: http://unfetteredmind.org/?s=five+elements )
shargrol, modified 3 Months ago.

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One way to think of it is there is an initial reaction to open space, and then the mind freaks out a little and solidifies around one of the 5 elements, creating the seed of the story. The earth element makes up for the agrophobic and vunerable feeling of open space by grabbing on to something, creating self and other that way. Water is the reaction of finding something to push away or avoid. Fire is the reaction of intensifying and over-indulging. Air is the reaction of busyiness or too much activity. Void is the reaction of confusion or depression. 

These reactions happen in 1/4 a second when the rug is pulled from under us. We're groundless and then we react. We're primally reborn, you could say, as a reactive pattern, as an element.

If we're not aware of this, then from this seed, we're psychologically reborn in another 3/4 of a second. This is the 6 realms teachings. Very few people can work with the 5 elements, but the 6 realms are understandable even to children --- and it's one you can rely on when life gets overwhelming. (What world am I in?) We'll develop a worldview and a story about what comes next. If we're reborn in hell, we fight something. If we're reborn as a preta, we feed an addiction. If we're animals, we follow a routine. If we're humans, we weigh and pursue our desires with a kind of cost-benefit calculation. If we're asuras, we compete. If we're gods, we try to maintain what we have.

The cheat codein the 6 realms is the human realm. The human realm can do a cost-benefit calculation on desire itself, being reborn itself, and thus escape rebirth so to speak.

The lynch pin in the 5 elements is awareness itself. Developing the sensativity to see the 1/4 reactive pattern means you aren't embedded in the reactive pattern.

When that is possible, then simply sitting and watch karma lose it's moment is possible. And then we finally glimpse how selfing is based on the false premise that there is something special ("me") that needs to survive as an ongoing idea. Once this "I need to survive into the future" habit is seen, it's seen as needlessly painful to have all the time, and so it becomes right sized and not an addiction that needs constant feeding.

Hope this is helpful in some way. Sort of a four gears approach: noting, 6 realms, 5 elements, mahamudra. emoticon
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Brilliant! Personally speaking, the great thing about working with the elements/realms is that samsara becomes much less problematic. Even if you can’t completely escape rebirth, you see it happening in realtime and know what’s going on. Instead of ‘I’m a bad person for getting angry’ it’s like ‘see how it’s passing through hell realm’. Instead of ‘I really don’t want to be doing this work’ it’s ‘see how it’s passing through animal realm’. Instead of ‘I’m so disappointed in myself for feeding my addiction again’ it’s ‘see how it’s passing through hungry ghost realm’. Instead of ‘I want my blissful meditation back’ it’s ‘see how it’s craving for god realm’. Even if you don’t catch the reaction and avoid the rebirth, the non-judgmental awareness of the process results in spending much less time in the realm itself (when you personalize it or resist it you end up getting stuck there for longer and making it worse for yourself). You effectively end up creating much more space between the realms ... which is the space the mind needs to finally recognize nibbana. emoticon  
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Thanks shargrol!
Yes it does make sense. I do see such approach possible now. However to make it most practical I will need to get very familiar with the wordings and meanings emoticon You see I never really went full on into any of these. I'm not sure I would know how to place certain stuff into a correct realm
or element fast enough emoticon 

There will be a learning curve here! However I do feel such practice might be right at this time. 
Need to check that link but I do have Ken's book too. 

Thank you again!
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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> a four gears approach: noting, 6 realms, 5 elements, mahamudra

Shouldn't this be the backbone/guiding theme of a future book? emoticon​​​​​​​ 
shargrol, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Thanks for that poke. emoticon My thoughts have been coming together more and more these days. Seems like I'm doing a bit more synthesis of ideas, rather than just cataloging all the different techniques I've used...
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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It would be a great book I'm sure. Realms & elements seems to be a bit esoteric (or too psychological?) from a Theravada/Mahasi/pragmatic dharma perspective, but it's really very practical and firmly rooted in dependent origination. I know you know this, but it was the missing link for me and I wouldn't have dug into it without your prompting. emoticon​​​​​​​
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Maybe you could call it "Shargrol's Guide to Breaking out of Third Path Purgatory" (only half joking)
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Thanks for that poke. emoticon My thoughts have been coming together more and more these days. Seems like I'm doing a bit more synthesis of ideas, rather than just cataloging all the different techniques I've used...

LOL Yeah, I'm sure you'll come up with a fine synthesis of all the methods & traditions you have worked with. You've already caught the audience's attention, we'll stay tuned emoticon​​​​​​​ 
shargrol, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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(And just to clarify something I said up thread, the synthesis that I'm thinking of is different than the 6 realm, 5 element, mahamudra thing. KMcL clearly describes that pattern/progression in his book.)
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Woke up with heavy headache preassure on the entire right side from behind the eye under the skull down to the neck stiffness and shoulder blade. Also lower back very stiff. Agonizing feeling generally. 

Did Tonglen during my walk and it did not really dissolve nor did I desire such. I really intended to just soak into it and experience it for the benefit of other beings. For some reason there is always an image of only two shaved head meditators sitting with closed eyes. They seem male. As soon I'm to xperience it for "all the beings with such issues" these two human meditators pop out in the image space. If I asked if there is less than two there was no change in the image but when asking if there are more there would be an incomplete image of another person but would vanish and only two remained. Any way thought this to be interesting as the same image pops out each time. 

During the walk I also practiced Look How It's. 

Will try find time to get familiar with 6 Realms and Elementd some more. To know which state and feel is which so not spend time being confused with this. 

However today I seem to be sensing hungry ghost realm and Air element of restlessness. 

​​​​​​​Thanks George for that link on realms. Reading it. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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I think I'm too dumb for any of those advanced Tibetan practices emoticon 

Last night got so much stiffness I just took painkillers so to easily sleep. 

Ghis morning stiffness was lesser but still there. Did walking meditation Look How It's and Tonglen. 

Then work in the garden then hell broke loose when my son let our dog out on the street where cars are driving! My partner was supposed to look after them while im
mowing the lawn but this happened so there was all sorts of verbal fighting going on! Shit! 

Anyway, ... got to the point I just decided to go and sit with full on noting. I don't think im
anywhere close to letting go of noting and doing advanced practices emoticon Too dumb still. 

Signing out,
The dummy! 
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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What I used to do is pick an incident during the day where I had reacted strongly and replay it during meditation. What I was aiming to do was have a pure experience of the emotion without the reaction. Eg if the incident was that someone said something and I got angry and said something I regretted. When I replayed it I would feel the anger reappearing and try to get a really good sense of how it felt in my body. The first couple of times it would be accompanied by the reaction, ie the thoughts of what I had said and further reactive mental scenarios. But then I would start to experience the emotion without the reaction, and it would be a much more complete and liberating experience of the emotion. The attitude was like 'ok if I'm going to feel angry at least let me feel what's really going on'. I would just feel the wave pass through without leaving the residue (getting stuck in the hell realm of trapped anger and self-recrimination). After doing this practice for a while I started to be able to catch the reations in real-time where the same kind of incident would happen and I would feel the anger wave pass through on the spot without reacting externally at all. I didn't catch it always, but it was very encouraging to see that it was possible.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Thanks George! Will see how and what. There is only so much energy and time for meditation between playing with Lego toys and changing diapers and the rest so will need to prioritize what I do when I can indeed practice. 

So far Look How It's and Tonglen will be the usual go to so not to overwhelm myself with too much at once. I don't think it's good to sit on too many chairs at the same time. 

Im sure time will come for certain practices to ripen into action. 
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Yeah the pressures of life with young kids is classic animal realm, doing whatever you gotta do to make sure everyone survives the day!

​​​​​​​I would only do elements practice with the stuff that bothers me so much it impacts my go-to practice.

I think of noting itself as an animal realm practice in a way. It may not be pretty, but however tough things get you can always rely on it to make it through the day emoticon
shargrol, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Great discussion. I strongly endorse the "reflect on day's events and relive it" approach. That's what I did, meditating this way right before bed. 

Definitely learn 6 realms first. That's essential. 

An easy way is to pick a realm you're already living and just notice that throught the day. Build up the ability to recognize and label it easily. Pick one and practice noticing it, just like starting noting practice.

Eventually, we'll learn all six and can do sort of freestyle realm noting practice. We can recognize that we're reborn into a realm every minute or so.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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I am noting mostly hungry ghost realm in wanting musical gear and researching about such on the net. It's a strong urge and I sense it in the upper belly and even solar plexsus. 

Lots of body stiffness ... I keep wondering what realm it is??? (I loose momentum on not being sure often which mind state of feeling belongs to which realm). 

Also the last few days lots of old memories and this time of ex women from my life. There is lust there and images of girls I've been only once with and those I've been longer with etc ... Classic C&E Nana where trains of old memories just keep arising one after the other. 

I still don't feel at home with the 6 Realm model. Will need to find a way to actually practice it. 

Kenneth Folk did try to teach me a way to practice it. Each realm had a haystack and under it something hidden. One would need to use the Bardo (nose sensations) to travel from one to the other realm. 

Once in the realm, let's say Hungry Ghost Realm I would enter it and look what is under the haystack. I would find a 6 pack of Guinness and pack of Doritos. Now I had a chance to either commit to this realm or not. I look at it ... the urge, the 6 pack of stout and crispy Doritos ... then I decide not to commit to it and find my way back to the Bardo (intermediate state) via nose sensations and go into the next realm. 

I did forget what we did in the others but I guess I could try and build up my 6 Realm practice in this fashion. It's more to get into it as a new way of "mapping" so to speak. It's another concept of course but seems skillful. 

Im sure my way to go about it will pop up soon. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Today while walking and practicing Look How It's , something interesting happened;

Whike walking through the forest and seeing the spruce trees there was this thought of palm trees on a beach in mind and then there was this "ok these palm trees are imagination in the mind while these spruce trees are real ... wait, what?! If both are in the mind and in the mind they are how can I just so blindly take it that these spruce trees are any more or less real than those imagined palm trees!!!" 

This got me really deeply. 

I know some suggest to look at This as a dream but I never before understood what they really meant by it. I think I now see. For some reason I feel sadness about it. 

Got me looking at all the sense doors too; 
I mean how can I be sure this screen really is in the eyes or typing fingers sensing in the skin? 

It's as we somehow choose to believe these concepts; 
This is imagination in the mind hence not real and this baby boy in my arms is real. 

Your posts on this forum ... are they real? More real than me imagining palm trees on a beach? These arise in the mind so how can one be real and the other not real?! 

Something troubles me with this realisation. It's disturbing (thinking about my sons now). 

Not just that we have no clue what's to happen next but also that there is no past nor future and that things we believed to be very real might also be but fluff in the mind just like those imagined palm trees on a beach emoticon 

Maybe I'm just under stress ... we did have a few days of worry as our baby son refused to eat so needed doctors to help him out. I think it's all good now. 

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy! 
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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I think you said it perfectly ... both real and not real emoticon​​​​​​​
george, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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The tree in your mind is an image in your mind the same way you experience objective reality in your mind but it doesn't mean that what you're seeing externally is not real or isn't there in physical form. The way I see it is it can all be fake, complete utter bullshit a simulation even but who cares? I still cry when someone hurts my feelings, i still have a smile on my face when I see a new born baby. My behaviour has a direct consequence on objective reality. If I have the intention to chop the tree down well it will cease to be there, meaning you and no one else will see it anymore. I experience things with my 6 sense doors and that's the truth to me. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Thanks George and George emoticon 

At times these realisation can feel wacky. Also some stuff which might be very obvious to some is not for others or maybe they get "skillfully" igonred emoticon emoticon 

Its all good. Even if all these beings are but in my mind they still need to awaken so assisting them and myself is always a good idea. That would be great if Samsara is ONLY in my mind emoticon 

(what the heck is he talking about now!? Good night Papa!) 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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This is interesting! 

Im sure most of will agree that the scenario spinning thinking is the worst emoticon and when we become mindful of it we snap out of it and quickly go back to some body sensation emoticon 

like very fast! emoticon almost panic like! Gotta me mindful of what is happening right now and thinking scenario is not It emoticon emoticon Ha!!!

Today there are lots of scenario spinning thoughts. Lots of! Either they arise-pass very fast after each other creating some kind of gibberish. Then there be a scenario spin that makes sense and is making a story about something. 

So I was trying to find that thin line between scenario spin as total absorption (aka lost in la-la land) and leaving it in awareness without running away to body sensations for rescue emoticon emoticon 

At first if going too hard into awareness these scenario spins disappear. But if "held" gently in the spaceous awareness then the scenario spin is going on but there is no knowing what is being really said emoticon 
It could also be just plain gibberish really unfolding in awareness. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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I think I'm observing a cycle happening; 

Two days ago felt a strong sense to use tobacco. This happened a few times before. I stopped with nicotine in February this year. This was a hungry ghost 

Yesterday sensed preassure from top of skull on the right side. Today as well. It's a bit unpleasant. The neck and shoulder blade stiffness is there but not having as much importance as that preassure in the top of skull. Lots of thoughts about the This Is It topic of this forum and narrative about it. 
This is Asura realm. "Dont care about that neck stiffness (those are but battle scars) as I gotta win this argument, be recognized etc ... 

However I also feel slight manic attitude and specially in the body, so wonder if Asura has something to do with A&P? 

Before all this tobacco urge and Asura manic "be in the right" attitude there was mostly focus on stiff shoulder and shoulder blade. Hell realm of trying to find a relief. But Tonglen might work well here as stiff neck has become more of a thing to appreciate. Still exploring this. 

Practice is still 30 minutes walking and mainly consists of Look How It's but also can get a few shots of Tonglen (a la shargrol) and of course 6 Realms treatment if something is clear to me about where to place which experience. 

That's all for now I think. 
George S, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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I think of A&P as getting high in god realm. Then clinging to it when it fades causes rebirth in hell (dark night). Equanimity is like the bardo (between death and rebirth). I just see realms/elements as a convenient framework to recognize cycling patterns, both on and off the cushion.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Went for a 45 minutes walk-meditation. Did mostly Look How It's and also freestyle fast noting at times. Did some Air element and Void element practice also. Light breeze was there so easy to sense it and void as space between the trees as well space between the air plain sound and sense door of hearing (there and here). 

Then sat for 30 minutes full on freestyle noting. 


Conclusion about the 6 Realms practice/perception/model ;

I don't find it engaging at all. There simply ain't no interest in it. I find it alien. It's not engaging. I lack that sense of intimacy with it. I really hate forcing stuff. I never forced any of my past practices and they gave good results because I found the engaging and interesting. 

So for now I'm letting go of the 6 Realms Model and will still keep my feet dipped into the 3 Speed Transmition Midel of Kenneth Folk. The first two gears make sense to me and I find it easy to ride them. The 3rd Gear is still a mystery hence my usual reaction is to leave it alone until it naturally start poking into the interest. 

I find the 5 Elements a bit more familiar somehow but not yet fully knowing how to practice it. I found Ken McLeod's instructions easy to follow. Will read more into that one. 

However I feel it's important  to get one or two main practices going daily. No matter if it's 1st Gear (noting) or 2nd Gear (Look how It's inquiry) in my case. Other practice/s can be added as needed like Tonglen (a la shargrol , look at first post in this thread) or 5 Elements (to read more into it and see if interest has really sparked). 

Ok that's it for now. 

May this be of benefit to many. 
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Papa Che Dusko
Went for a 45 minutes walk-meditation. Did mostly Look How It's and also freestyle fast noting at times. Did some Air element and Void element practice also. Light breeze was there so easy to sense it and void as space between the trees as well space between the air plain sound and sense door of hearing (there and here). 

Hi Papa. Long time no hear. Stop by my log. I could use your input. Anyway, Is this part of the practice for WUTYL?

Then sat for 30 minutes full on freestyle noting. 
You're still doing noting too?


Conclusion about the 6 Realms practice/perception/model ;

I don't find it engaging at all. There simply ain't no interest in it. I find it alien. It's not engaging. I lack that sense of intimacy with it. I really hate forcing stuff. I never forced any of my past practices and they gave good results because I found the engaging and interesting. 

The 6 Realms model comes from WUTYL?

So for now I'm letting go of the 6 Realms Model and will still keep my feet dipped into the 3 Speed Transmition Midel of Kenneth Folk. The first two gears make sense to me and I find it easy to ride them. The 3rd Gear is still a mystery hence my usual reaction is to leave it alone until it naturally start poking into the interest. 

I like the 3 speed model mainly because I can understand it
I find the 5 Elements a bit more familiar somehow but not yet fully knowing how to practice it. I found Ken McLeod's instructions easy to follow. Will read more into that one. 

However I feel it's important  to get one or two main practices going daily. No matter if it's 1st Gear (noting) or 2nd Gear (Look how It's inquiry) in my case. Other practice/s can be added as needed like Tonglen (a la shargrol , look at first post in this thread) or 5 Elements (to read more into it and see if interest has really sparked). 

Ok that's it for now. 

May this be of benefit to many. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Hi Sam! 

I have no clue what I'm doing to be honest emoticon I just do what makes sense at the moment and keep Looking at how it's trying this or that. I don't think I have much to say in your log mate. I'm also lost. Maybe being lost is a good thing. 
I do a bit of noting every once in a while but also Looking how it's practicing noting. There is comfort in familiar ground. Look how it feels at home when noting etc ... 

You are doing great. Keep at it Sam! 
Sam Gentile, modified 3 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Actually its looking like the Dzogchen and awareness practices are making more sense than noting right now but I don't know.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Was working for a local farmer for a week, hence no formal practice and lots of tiredness and stiff muscles emoticon However it felt great to be under the open sky all day even if we got soaking wet a few times due to sudden showers. Today off work and back to my forest walking meditation; Did a 35 minutes walk and did the usual Look How Its meditaion. Tonglen did not arise this time but it did go into Noting at some stage. During the practice while walking it got to me "again" that there just is this sense of "awake Me" and "lost in La-la land Me", and there is this constant process of PREFERENCE. Sense that one is bad and the other good still seems to arise however its being seen as ridiculous more often than not but still there is a "natural" pull towards "good/pleasant/nice, etc". It looks a bit like the Justice System emoticon 

Anywho, got need to do some kind of sitting practice and sat with the intent to figure out what to practice ... hm? ... so I asked "may I practice now that which is of benefit for me and all other beings" and Kenneth Folk's 'Listening-Mahamudra' came to mind and off it started for the duration of this sit which also was 35 minutes (still not much desire to sit longer). Instead of using "listening to the ships in a distant harbour" I used "listening to the storms of planet Jupiter" as the ships were a bit comic to me and I could not take it seriously emoticon  So I would say aloud "listening" every so often and simply recognize all that which is not the experience of the sound of the storms of Jupiter , and returning to the act of "listening to the storms of Jupiter".

After only a couple of minutes (with open eyes) the room I stare at turned murky and the overall absorption was 3rd Jhanic, very diffuesed, chilled out, loose and murk was dynamic but I payed not much attention to it as I was "listening to the storms of Jupiter" instead and this absorption was not it. Then the distance to the Jupiter was inwardly , into the head rather than outwardly. The space in the head was vast, going into the vast universe. Also lots of images of the planet Jupiter arising in the image space but that too was not the sound of the actual storms of Jupiter, so back to "listening". Then at one stage it all got boring, and sudden urges of "this si stupid, do Noting instead" would arise. These too were not the sound of Jupiter's storms. Or the body would start jerking as if it needs to move.

​​​​​​​Will see to continue with this 'Listening Mahamudra' practice when sitting but also back off into Look How Its or plain Noting if necessery. Tonglen is also of interest. Thats it for now. May it be of benefit to all beings!
george, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Currently listening to storms of jupiter. Metta
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Find your own planet! Jupiter is taken! emoticon 
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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I think mines Venus anyway you can take Jupiter 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Observation;

I seem to be tip-toeing with my practice for a while now. Im not really invested in it. I'm more like watering it like a flower every day so it doesn't dry up. However I'm not fertilizing it so it starts to grow. 

I guess not entirely sure what to do or why. There is suffering but is not unbearable to really get me going as it did in the past (my main motivator was always Dukkha). 

What if this journey is about not-suffering and something to enjoy? I might have resistance to having it easy and enjoyable and happy. "What if I let down the guard and then get hit suddenly?!" "I better keep ready for the worst! Life is suffering after all!" 

Lack of trust. Abandonment issues. Sadness.

I don't know. Maybe I should just stay with Tonglen for now. 
​​​​​​​
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Holding on to suffering is so very human. You're not alone in it. Thankfully, every moment is new. 
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko
​​​​​​​

"What if I let down the guard and then get hit suddenly?!" "I better keep ready for the worst! Life is suffering after all!"

Lack of trust. Abandonment issues. Sadness.

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, that sounds like core trauma territory. It's fucking hard, and objectively speaking I only suffered a fraction of the trauma that you did by the sounds of things. I'm sorry.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks G&L (is a guitar brand btw) emoticon 

I have been aware and talking about the issue with abandonment since ... 1997. 
With therapists, parents and good friends. 

However this here has something to do in relation with the clinging onto these arise-passed experiences. Fear to let go into the wondering mind of Mahamudra. Lack of trust (likely psychological as well). It's more of an attitude that "I" will be left alone there in the middle of nowhere, alone and in fear, not safe. 

I did an hour of walking Listening Mahamudra yesterday and I could sense some "choking" in the moment of wondering receptiveness of such "listening" mind. There really ain't anything to hold onto in "such". 

Lots of other stuff is being experienced of course during this practice and these seem like readily available escapes. A familiar ground (to hold onto ? ). 

I have noticed this with "my" Noting practice too. Mind tends to want to go into Noting as the familiar ground. I guess it's ok also and I shall not force this and in my usual style rip away all sense of ground beneath my feet, so to speak emoticon 

Steady and easy. 

I will remain with KF's 3 Speed Transmition (with extra Tonglen by shargrol included)
abd shuffle between these as they arise and see what's going on. At the moment it seems to start with Look how It's (2nd gear) and grows into Tonglen and then Listening Mahamudra. 

Off to the fields again to help my local farmer lad! Means lots of walking emoticon
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko

It's more of an attitude that "I" will be left alone there in the middle of nowhere, alone and in fear, not safe. 

​​​​​​​You could try intentionally generating that state to explore what it feels like (just thinking out loud here, don't really know what I'm talking about emoticon​​​​​​​)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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George S
Papa Che Dusko

It's more of an attitude that "I" will be left alone there in the middle of nowhere, alone and in fear, not safe. 

​​​​​​​You could try intentionally generating that state to explore what it feels like (just thinking out loud here, don't really know what I'm talking about emoticon​​​​​​​)


I have tried some of that within different frameworks. It’s not a bad idea.

You can do it as regular vipassana to arrive at the emptiness of it. This is what I find works when it’s something really sticky, and you already know how to do that. Vipassana is great for this.

You can also do it from the Mahamudra angle, but that requires getting into enough of a relaxed state first before bringing it up. The Mahamudra angle is less about reaching the emptiness and more about bringing the ease of the emptiness back into the form, to see form from what might be called a nondual perspective - but please be free to use any wording to your liking. This is something I’m trying to work on, with varying success. I find it very powerful. And with this kind of work, it is often recommended that you initially practice with the feeling in the shape of being intentionally generated in a safe environment and safe situation, that is, not in situations that trigger it. Just very gently generated by way of remembering it. And when that works perfectly smoothly, you can work with some situations in daily life as they naturally occur, focusing on the ones that are easy while trying to minimize the occurrance of more challenging situations. And only after that works perfectly smoothly, you can seek out triggers more actively, starting with very light triggers.

Personally I had to switch the order a bit to make it work for me when I was doing this on a retreat. The subtle senses of the feelings I was working with came up without having to use memories to evoke them. Thanks to my vipassana practice, I was able to spot subtle embryos of feelings and bring them up from the Mahamudra angle of it. That level of subtlety was smoother for me to work with. Intentionally generating them, on the other hand, was sometimes too triggering. For me that led to somatic pain. 

So I’d say, play around with it very gently to see what is the softest approach for you. Switching back and forth between Vipassana and Mahamudra is great, especially with this stuff that pushes our limits.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: "Look how its practicing" Papa Che Log

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Did 45 minutes of walking 'Listening Mahamudra' meditation (started with short noting, then Look How Its for the first 5 minutes or so). 

This listening Mahamudra really is interesting. It opens up the mind so much that it really feels like space in which all these experiences just pass by like "clouds". Even thoughts of ill will just pass by without causing any issues. 

That gesture towards listening for something I will not hear (the storms of Jupiter) let's all the myriads things arise-pass without any clinging. There can occasionally be a drag into a scenario spin but w
uickly goes back to that spaceous "gesture of listening (to that which can not be head)" 

This practice is sparking interest.

At the moment there is still this sense of "listening gesture" even while writing this 

Just to add; 
During the practice of Mahamudra gladness did arise and immediately there was a reaction to stop it! So yes, there is a resistance in this towards being happy/glad/relaxed/no rush/chilled out/just hang in whatever attitude/ ...

Will remain in this practice. 

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy. 

Thank you George emoticon will see if I can do that within the Tonglen practice. Thanks! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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While walking in the forest there was a touch sensation on the skin on my hand, knowing-mind image of a one strand spider web, mind image of a spider, disqust, the other hand moving and taking off the spider web. 

This happened very fast but all were separate yet dependents coarising. 

Is this what you fine folks call dependent coarising? 

I mean we see this so many times in Noting and yet it doesn't really sink in as a default for some reason. 

There was no "me" in any of it and yet all happened perfectly on its own. I just used this example but few other examples happen as well in this fashion during this walk. 

May all beings be free from suffering. May all beings awaken. May all beings be happy. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Sure. That was dependent coarising, just like everything else, and it was good that you could notice both the chain and that it happened without your ownership of it. Well spotted! 

How engaged were you in the disgust part? Did it feel like the disgust was yours or was it just something that happened without you being at the center of it? Just curious, because this is something I'm working with, the subtle differences in situations that can have the effect of grabbing us but don't always.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hi Linda!

Disqust part was on its own, a fast part of the sequence as the rest without the "me, mine, I" being attched to it. It was not intense but just arise-passed quickly moving into the other hand removing the spider web (in that case). This is kind of fresh "insight" for me. I always knew it from Vipassana but never really was it so clear. Maybe it has something to do with me trying this new to me 'Listening Mahamudra' practice. Who knows. 

Any way , Im listening to some real awesomness , please feel free to join me emoticon love live-in-studio-performances 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OpUZSGlT4
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Awesome! Yes, that's so cool! Yeah, I believe that the triangulation between vipassana and Mahamudra/Dzogchen opens up for multiple angles which makes the insight richer and more nuanced. It can also be a bit of a mindfuck at times, in my experience, when there seems to be a contradiction between the approaches although there really isn't. I have had lots of what you are describing below: days when it just seemed impossible - and then all of a sudden it opens up when I go for a walk or something. 

As for the music - great, enjoy! I may or may not join you, depending on what seems to be needed. I have had an intense practice day and reality just turned a bit weird. Not in any bad way, but it might indicate that I need to rest in silence and let things integrate, maybe ground myself by doing some gardening, or eat something. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Just to mention here in case some might find it intersting;

I could not practice (tune into, open up to) Mahamudra yesterday for some reason, so I spend my meditation walk on Noting and Tonglen. Today I just didnt feel like practicing at all and just let stuff does what it does while walking. This is when dependent coarising was spotted.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Did my usual walking in the forest practice and all was rather heavy, miserable, dissolving, hard to focus ... tried the Listening Mahamudra and it did not go outwardly (sense of listening out into the universe) nor did it go inwardly (sense of the universe going into the head). All was rather dissolving and then it hit me; 

two days ago the mind stage was likely EQ or maybe even A&P and it was easy to see the dependent coarising sequence in a clear way. Today stuff revolves around DN and I wonder how folks see dependent coarising in DN? 

I assume its more natural to us to see clear sequence that makes sense (arise-peak experience-pass) than the one in DN which is dissolving and passing away and has no form to make sense. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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The DN is a great opportunity to see the dependent origination of our samsaric patterns, because there is an abundance of them. You don't have to work from nondual perception (what a weird conceptualization, haha) if that isn't available. You can see dependent origination perfectly well with noting.

If it's the nonseparation you are looking for, here's a fun exercise I once stumbled upon by accident: Focus on breathing while tuning into someone else's breathing. Explore what happens when you focus on your own breath, and what happens when you focus on the other one's breathing, and alternate between those two modes. I did it with a sleeping cat. Probably not a proper method (?), but pretty darn cool.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thank you Linda. I will see to try that. Off to log my today's practice experience while it's fresh. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Just wrote a large post in my iPhone about my practice experience which was very disturbing and fearful but the forum decided not to publish it emoticon maybe for the better. 

Any way, I was staring at myself. That me was a demon me. It was laughing like a mad man emoticon in a field where I'm to help a neighbor farmer remove some weeds tomorrow. 

​​​​​​​I will try and log about it later as I've already wasted enough time on this post. 
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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Give the demon self a biiiig hug! Sit next two it and smile. It's just a part of you that thinks all this is a sick joke and that liberation is not possible. To hell with that! We still have to TRY to see if it's possible! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thanks George! 

emoticon your suggestion came too late I'm afraid. 

The demon me had my face and my working clothes so it certainly was another me. It felt like me. The large open mouth had sharp teeth and was laughing like crazy. Large eyes with blood vessels and red sickly lips. 

It was walking  in that very field of wheat im
to work tomorrow. I felt fear and concern with this fact. Will something bad happen to me tomorrow in that field???! 

Towards that demon me image arising I was practicing Mahamudra. Then decided to switch to shargrol Tonglen to evoke more this image and feel of that demon me. It was going mad for sure and it didn't feel pleasant at all. 

At some stage decided to take out an imaginary long  knife and approached it, grabbed for its hair and chopped his head off. 
I held his head , dead eyes stil open and lifeless, long tongue hanging out. 

Decided to offer it to a wrathful diety. Placed the head upside down and used it as a flower pot. I planted a red rose into the cut throat and left it to the wrathful diety. The eyes, the ears, the tongue, the nose, the skin, the mind. All in this head of the demon-me. 

​​​​​​​There were tears in my eyes afterwards and felt very emotional. 
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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At some stage decided to take out an imaginary long  knife and approached it, grabbed for its hair and chopped his head off. 
I held his head , dead eyes stil open and lifeless, long tongue hanging out. 

Decided to offer it to a wrathful diety. Placed the head upside down and used it as a flower pot. I planted a red rose into the cut throat and left it to the wrathful diety. The eyes, the ears, the tongue, the nose, the skin, the mind. All in this head of the demon-me. 

​​​​​​​There were tears in my eyes afterwards and felt very emotional. 


You can also stab the bastard! Sounds like it was cathartic. Good stuff Papa.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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I have no idea what it was and why exacty that image kept looping. Even now I can see it looking at me and laughing like a mad man. I remember my last Re-observation was an image of a red car passing by our house , on and on and on and on ... I thought I will literaly go mad but I kept noting it in all that disqust and misery. Nothing scary really but when the mind gets stuck in it , it really feels like going crazy.

Im not saying im in re-observation now. I have no clue where I am on the POI and thats fine. 

I just got a bit startled with this rather vivid image looking like me ... well, I can say its just a mind construct but it felt like me and looks like me so there is this emotional charge there.

I will be going into that field tomorrow, working for 3 hours. I know exactly in which part of that field the demon-me was in. Should I look for it "out there" ? emoticon 

May we all awaken!
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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Yeah wow! Tell us what you find!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Was in that field today. Felt a bit uneasy while approaching. The way we feel when watching horror movies I guess. 

However when I arrived at that spot I could only see 3 gorgeous horses staring at me from a near by horse farm emoticon 

I worked for 3 hours then went home. 
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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Papa Che Dusko
Was in that field today. Felt a bit uneasy while approaching. The way we feel when watching horror movies I guess. 

However when I arrived at that spot I could only see 3 gorgeous horses staring at me from a near by horse farm emoticon 

I worked for 3 hours then went home. 

Ain't nothing like the present moment!! Lovely Papa.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Decided to sit a 45er full on freestyle noting aloud. 

Did so for likely 35-40 minutes (haven't looked at the timer but soon afterwards the alarm went off) then all flattened out and there was boredom and images of a young kid monk in red robes. It turned out to be Dalai Lama as a young kid with his teacher in some monastery. Very strange as I'm not really into the dogmatic traditional Buddhism. Any who, then there was more boredom and just staring at the room I was sitting in until the alarm went off. 

Will try and describe the demon-me experience in a new post. 
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J W, modified 2 Months ago.

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Whoa sounds like a pretty intense if not profound experience, you all good? Dont push it too hard my man! Hope all's well with ya.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hi JW emoticon all good here at This moment emoticon just about to go to sleep.

That episode was ages ago emoticon (last week) Totally forgot about it! But now you brought it back damn it! emoticon It's like saying "don't think about a pink elephant" emoticon Now I'm imagining it all over again emoticon 

​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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There is this process; 
as soon a sensation arise-passes there is this automatic comparing going on. It's the work of past memory , comparing this experience with some past similar  experience. Why? To label it into a category? To find a familiar ground?

Also this Mahamudra seems limited to spaciousness it seems. If stuff is contracted there is lack of spaciousness. Even this Mahamudra awareness is dependent on something else. Why then value it as something to attain to? 
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

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In a way comparison is the root of all dissatisfaction - better/worse, more/less, self/other, this/that, present/past, future/present, spacious/contracted etc. So long as you don't compare this moment against anything else then there is no problem with immediate experience. Obviously a certain amount of comparing is necessary to survive, but not nearly as much as we do.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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You are misunderstanding this George. 

It's not me comparing anything. What I describe, that process, seems to unfold in less than a second on its own. It immediately follows the arise-passed sensation-experience and then there will be an experience from the past that is matching it. 
It's like a fast processing of files to be place into "proper" folders. 

All this passes Very fast, less than a second. 

But no worries there. I just mentioned it for the sake of this log. I'm not thinking about that anymore. At the moment in a rather edgy and irritated mind state. Eldest son not really listening, smashing doors, and generally trying to do the opposite of what we ask him to do or not to do.

Be well! 
George S, modified 2 Months ago.

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No worries! I see it as a similar process operating on different timescales. At the slow end there are thinking comparisons ('I prefer this experience to that one'). At the fast end there is the frame-by-frame process of the mind trying to fabricate constant objects/states by matching similar frames (this frame represents the same object/state as that one) and then getting dissatisfied that they are inconstant. But maybe I'm just comparing different processes!
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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You seem to be a natural tantric practicioner. emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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I know nothing about tantric practice! emoticon Can you elaborate for the dummy I am? Thank you Linda! 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I was just referring to those vivid visualizations and how you spontaneously come up with a ritual to deal with them. I don't know much about it either. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oh I see. I did not know that was called Tantra. 

The ritual itself is something I've heard once from a Tibetan teacher, on a YT video (I get video suggestions) I'm sure it's not even done properly by me. However the intention to use it arose on its own (well, it came about through the image of demon-me not going away and there was an unpleasant feeling) It just came up, so I went with it eventhough it was not pleasant to do it. 
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hey Papa. I really don't have anything that could help
you here but im curious with what you're describing. I have thoughts that seem to last a split second, not even half a second but the information that is recalled is overwhelming. If I were to verbalise this spilt second mind moment it would take at least 30 seconds to a minute to explain. Have you possibly had this experience before and is it different to what you're describing here?

​​​​​​​I was very much like your son too, hahaha. Ahhh the joys of being young and completely confused with everything, nothing changes.

On further reflection it looks to be completely different, my bad.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

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"Hey Papa. I really don't have anything that could help you here"

emoticon oh, you could babysit for us emoticon 

Hm, not sure what you asked there, about your experience sorry emoticon Stuff happens fast. Then there is memory looping it some more. If there is extra clinging desire or aversion then there is more looping still and some other stuff might also be effected and on and on it unfolds emoticon 

It's a bloody mess this consciousness is emoticon 
But we keep watching it! Look, look, look! emoticon 

Off I go into dream land. Good night! 
george, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hahaha sorry I'm just a welder! Maybe I could weld something for you? Have a good rest mate. 

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