Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesiology

Soh Wei Yu, modified 1 Month ago.

Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesiology

Posts: 13 Join Date: 2/13/21 Recent Posts
Thought this might interest some of you:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/06/awakening-explained-ep-1-wdr-angelo.html

He attained equivalent of MCTB fourth path although through a more nondual-immediate/direct/inquiry sort of approach. He's also a co-admin of my group but he has his own group as well.
Thank you for sharing this. I clicked on it out of skepticism and had no intention of listening to it, but here I find myself over 90 minutes into the first video in the series. I'd personally put this discussion up there with some of the better interviews that Daniel Ingram has done. I think Angelo comes off as pretty down to earth and basically sane. 

Much of what Angelo has said resonsates with what I have read on this forum or have heard other advanced practitioners discuss/report. I'd say this interview/discussion would be interesting to folks who are fans of MCTB and Ken McLeod's "Wake Up to Your Life" because there are elements of 'this can be done' and also 'reactive patterns & habitual ways of seeing are getting in the way and cause suffering'. He also touches on how there are destabilizing aspects to the waking up process and how awakening doesn't confer any special status or abilities on a person. It's also coincidental that he is an MD and mentions how waking up allowed him to pursue medical school - which is similar to what Daniel says in the '10% Happier Podcast' when discussing how he was able to function better as a result of insight.

There are certain points that were made or certain ways things were framed that I didn't quite agree with, but as a whole, I found the first video discussion to be enthralling. I look forward to finishing the series.
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This very moment, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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I got his book for free by subscribing to his facebook group and browsed through it.   I read the transcripts of two interviews, then downloaded his simply awake app for a listen to several guided meditations.   " Pragmatic, zen-flavored advaita " is how I would describe his teaching or non-teaching.  He comes across as really a really grounded, normal, matter-of-fact kind of guy.  It seems that he is been practicing for at least 25 years after an initial kensho and looks like the website with videos has been up for a few years.   
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Thanks for sharing. Only watched 40
mins but seems pretty solid. Always interesting to see how different people take such different paths to recognize what they've always known. emoticon

Curious about the "equivalent of MCTB fourth path" (maybe I just need to watch/read more ...)
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Maybe it's just that people have different ways of forgetting it emoticon
Soh Wei Yu, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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His third video on Attention describes certain insights that are correlated with the description of fourth path in MCTB.

​​​​​​​if that is not enough, he has an entire chapter describing stages of awakening in his book. 
Soh Wei Yu, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Part 4 of the interview is out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0og3nrsNC8
Logan G., modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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I watched a couple of videos and then decided to grab the book! I've finished reading it, and I would say the section on emotions really resonated with me where I'm currently at in my practice. It feel very helpful. Additionally, I haven't been introduced to 'Inquiry' before, and am curious to play around with it a bit. I like that it's something I seem to be able to do in a comfortable way without needing to stabilize the mind with concentration for 20 minutes first.

Occaisonally it felt a bit vague and repetitive, but he also explains at the beginning of the book that this is intentional and part of the 'pointing' aspect of the book. I did indeed feel like the book pulled me along effectively, so I think this may have at least partially worked.

Basically: I liked it!
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
Me too, got book.
Stickman3, modified 18 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
I admit I find what people say about emotions after awakening to be completely confusing - because nobody can seem to agree on whether claims of non-emotional awakening are possible.

Most famous exponent on this being Gary Weber (although there are others) who says emotions have basically gone, post-awakening. The DO buddhists don't like this at all and think he's lying or deluded. They've met him and I haven't, so I have to be circumspect.

On the other hand, the DO buddhists here have plainly found things outside of their own religion to be true, so I remain open that buddhism isn't the final word on everything.

Big problem is that if someone claims non-emotionality is possible when it isn't is that you might end up repressed instead of free.
Big problem if someone claims emotions never end is that there may be an unexplored level of freedom.

DO buddhists have a big network of experienced and clever people to draw on when looking at human potentials, so they might be right. Then again maybe not, I have no idea.

The degree to which people experience emotions are naturally wildly variable (alexithymia,  autism, psychopathy etc).  between people outside of the contemplative scene, let alone including all the stuff people can deliberately do on cushions.

Dan Ingram's recent interview in which he went into the emotional life post 4th path, and things like aphantasia, was really a good delve and a helpful series of interviews (I thought).

I'd never heard of alexithymia (emotional blindness) before starting this comment, but apparently.... in Finland at least...

"The prevalence of alexithymia was 13%. Men were alexithymic almost twice (17%) as often as women (10%)."

Which is a lot

What happens to an alexithymic person when they embark on a meditation program, and how do they interpret the results ? Who knows ? But it would seem really important for the outcome.

That's probably more than you asked for, forgive me if I waffle because I just got caught up a bit with something I meant to get into for a while.

What do you reckon ?
Logan G., modified 23 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 122 Join Date: 5/22/21 Recent Posts
I've been thinking about this a fair bit recently and basically come to the conclusion that, for my purposes, I'm not very worried about my emotions if they can arise without suffering.

Stickman3Big problem is that if someone claims non-emotionality is possible when it isn't is that you might end up repressed instead of free.


I agree - this seems like it could lead to suffering.

Stickman3Big problem if someone claims emotions never end is that there may be an unexplored level of freedom.


This I'm less worried about -- if I'm free of suffering, then I'm all good. That's my whole goal with this process. Others may have different goals.

I tend to bias slightly toward saying that emotions might be worth keeping around in order to function well in a society of emotional people. I'd just like to be able to listen to my own emotions as friendly advice rather than get run over by them.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 1899 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Watched #2, hands down the funniest dharma talk I ever heard emoticon
Soh Wei Yu, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Part 5!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbezCWitG_E
Stickman3, modified 18 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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I'm stuck on the 'unfiltered reality' bit, because I like science and science says all our senses are conditioned and processed before being delivered, like your goodies from ebay, to their final destination - namely the little homunculus that lives in our head.

Just because you got rid of the homunculus, does that mean the brain isn't filtering and processing reality from photons (granting current model for a moment) to whatever it is we're seeing ?

By 'unfiltered reality', does that mean unnaffected by emotional and mental activity, but still undergoing neural processing and filtering -
ie. I'm meant to read between the lines a bit here.

Of course, when you consider our ideas about photons themselves as products of the filtering process then it gets especially tricky.

Or does it mean digging down through all those those processes and filters as much as possible ?

I could see this leading to some naive realism, in which instead of someone saying that we translate some electromagnetic wavelength out there and end up with red qualia, that a red thing really is red and wavelengths are just a physics fantasy.

On the other hand I'm sure it can be approached by saying that naive realism, materialism, idealism, whatever you've got, can all be seen as empty of essence, non-dual and transitory. Like a non-dual materialism.


OK some 4th path people say they see the world in 2D - so that's not just a filter lost, but a whole chunk of processing bypassed.

So, tricky thought experiment - could a brain surgeon, theoretically, open up the skull and break the bit of brain that creates 3d - yet leave the sense of self intact ?
ie., have the perceptual side effects of 4th path but without the actual awakening ?

And if you knew the brain well enough could you, theoretically, use science to selectively go anywhere on the contemplative map, or deconstruct any perceptual process, in any combination you want ?

ie. push a button and go to 4th path, maybe flip a switch and reduce 3D to 2D, turn a dial and add in some aspect of a jhana as well ?

So, let's postulate, it's the year 2075 and we can buy a rechargable Samsung Brainalizer in which we can dial in any place on any contemplative map, and blend in any cognitive or perceptual effect.

Or maybe the government will dial it in for you, for the sake of 'social harmony' ?

Or are we looking at things too fundamental to be tinkered with electronically ? Or that we are dealing with things no government can control, despite their hubris, because government is the tail and life is the dog ? And we're coming to the end of the holocene and all that goes with it, anyway ?

It's interviews like this that make me think buddhism is all about breaking your brain and it's concommitant sense of self, which has taken millions of years to evolve, simply because life gets a bit tough sometimes, but that really the direction in which evolution points is toughing out the duality and developing the thought world. Maybe even evolving duality into triality or quadrality. Suffering four selves at once ! (Some people already say they experience all the suffering of humanity - stuff like that).

But somebody has to retain knowledge of the most basic ways of seeing, and as things stand, the human population is mixed with regards to how things are seen, and maybe always will be.
?? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
...anyway terrific book, thoroughly recommend.
Logan G., modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 122 Join Date: 5/22/21 Recent Posts
By 'unfiltered reality', does that mean unnaffected by emotional and mental activity, but still undergoing neural processing and filtering -
ie. I'm meant to read between the lines a bit here.
That's how I understand it currently. My personal intepretation of all of this stuff is that I'm 'trying to see what it's like to be a meat-computer'. Like sure, rationally I understand that photons are hitting receptors and whatnot, but I also acknowledge that the only way I will ever experience a photon is ultimately as a neurons firing. Like I just don't get to know if there's anything actually out there, (Descarte's whole hangup with the demon), and so in one sense experience *is* reality. It's the thing that actually happens to me.

I'll also say I do believe there is actually a world out there -- we've got models with great predictive power. It's just worth noting that that's *all* we've got - everything I personally will experience is just my sense perceptions as filtered through my brain's model of reality.
OK some 4th path people say they see the world in 2D - so that's not just a filter lost, but a whole chunk of processing bypassed.
I personally like the stereo-fusion that my brain does to generate a sense of depth and don't have much interest in messing with it, but I actually find this quite inspiring nontheless - it hints at the 'reprogrammability' of this whole experience. I'm personally focused on getting rid of suffering - it just seems stupid to spend so much time fighting with myself as I attempt to go about my life.
It's interviews like this that make me think buddhism is all about breaking your brain and it's concommitant sense of self, which has taken millions of years to evolve, simply because life gets a bit tough sometimes, but that really the direction in which evolution points is toughing out the duality and developing the thought world.
I think it's worth noting that, from an evolutionary perspective, probably some of the new brain modules that have come online might make parts of the old ones obselete - i.e. maybe the ability to do complex planning makes some of the simpler reactive parts of the brain more of a hindrance than a help, other than in true life/death situations.

Personally, I would guess that 'toughing out the duality and developing the thought world' would be possible with regard some of my own hangups, but I've spent a long time trying to do that with only moderate success, and the promise of reprogramming something more fundamental to deal with the whole class of problems is very appealing.
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
Hi Logan, I think, reading further in, he is also getting into the sensory processing, to the point of taking time and space out of the world's phenomena and revealing the boundless, alive and eternal qualities (if qualities be the right word) of it. 'Infinity in a grain of sand'.

I'll leave the 2d thing for people better qualified to comment.

Reading his section on thought, examining thought and the disease nature of certain kinds of thought, I'm minded that actually thoughts are sometimes the product of disease - inflammation can cause depression, all sorts of biological troubles can cause unhappy thoughts. Even gut flora issues can alter thought and mood if you have the wrong bacteria reproducing in you.
So I wonder how far this equivalence of thought and cell can be taken, and if unhappy thoughts and the deep layers of self being addressed here are, quite literally, either invasive cells, or our own cells struggling to survive in a symbiosis that's got out of whack or become obsolete ?
In other words we are subject to self-cells obscuring reality with their own version. I certainly wouldn't be the first to postulate a mind virus behind all our ills (I know a virus isn't a cell, but in that sort of area).
Or the human system and it's context might not be reducible to biology. Hmm. Anyway I don't think there is an antibiotic of awakening that you can take - Nirvanacillin :-)
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Unfiltered reality is just like unfiltered beer. Some people like it, most don't. Awakening is a choice in the present moment. I don't know if it works in a child's brain though. My experience level in that realm is still undefined, and therefore needs no introduction. I assume the world needs people like you to translate the dharma into pieces that will dissolve in a child's blood brain barrier. So I cherish your inquisitive thoughts. Thank you.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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The point being is that unfiltered reality is an aquired taste, and that children may not have the capacity for aquired tastes yet. So there you have it.
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Alesh Vyhnal, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 126 Join Date: 2/14/13 Recent Posts
"Experience reality without perceptual filters"

It means to sense all

--electromagnetic spectrum (like some insect can "see" UV radiation)
--ultrasound and infrasound (bat)
--magnetic field of the Earth (some birds can "see" magnetic field)
.
.
.
​​​​​​​Clearly this abilities weren't demonstrated and the gentleman is probably another quack.
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
I don't think he was being literal. But how much filtering processing can be seen through - that's the question.

I, on the other hand, see UV light in my pollen collection job, because I am a bee.
Stickman3, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
I'm back at the hive now, and using Beenet I see a couple of things, if not strictly in UV.

First is human magnetoception - evidence is accumulating for this, with a whole lab for it at Caltech. https://maglab.caltech.edu/human-magnetic-reception-laboratory/

Another is that humans can detect one single photon https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms12172

What else.. hm - biophotons in the brain https://physicsworld.com/a/do-quantum-effects-play-a-role-in-consciousness/

Reading Dillulo's book,  p212 "There is no timeline. Nothing is moving from moment to moment. There aren't even moments. This is the only moment and thus there is no need to call it moment. It is not a point in time; it is every point in time, always right here. Timelessness is intuited to be simply the way it is."

Coincidentally that's how photons see things too.
"Photons do not experience time. From the perspective of a photon, there is no such thing as time. It's emitted, and might exist for hundreds of trillions of years, but for the photon, there's zero time elapsed between when it's emitted and when it's absorbed again. It doesn't experience distance either."

I don't know if this is a meaningful comparison, others have tried such things - I remember reading the Tao of Physics years ago, Fritjof Capra drawing lots of comparisons between contemplative experience and physics.

But OK, let's be all materialistic and say photons have a role in creating consciousness.
Round here consiousness isn't a fundamental aspect of reality but a phenomena of a deeper reality to be dug into and under. If that deeper reality is matter, and photons don't experience time maybe timelessness is us experiencing matter sans consciousness, at a very low level.

Even lower are things like virtual particles popping out of nothing. Matter manifesting out of the void ?

Or is it just a case of someone (Dr DiLullo) writing under the influence of a science education in a scientific period of civilization - so everything reads like scientific concepts ?

Indeed on p217 we get scientific language explicitly,
"You could say this quantum fluctuation between nothingness and somethingness is the fabric or most fundamental identity of reality itself. This is not the same as personal identity or universal identity/consciousness."

Is that me being a lame pseudo-intellectual or is there something in the contemplative/physics comparison - as many people have said ?

If anyone has any cool links about this please do drop it here :-)
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Ni Nurta, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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I see interresting topics popping up

I checked this guy before in... 'timeless' and he felt like he is using strange references. Definitely he developes some mind states which seem easy to copy but I didn't give him much attention so far (also because I know how mind of such people work and what are their hidden agendas... because I know how my mind works XD). I only watched part of one video and read some reddit posts, enough to find him but not much actual knowledge to go on to see what he actually talks about. If he talk in pseudo-scientific language then it might be worth seeing his interpretations if they match my quantum pseudo-science emoticon
Stickman3, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
:-)

Well, if there was no correlation between physics and contemplative states then all that brain scanning would be useless.
Most people seem happy to accept the correlation between meditation and the brain at a cellular level, so why not the activity of the brain at deeper levels or smaller scales, including that of virtual particles - in principle at least ?
ie. once you've contemplated the activity of your cells as far as you can, down to the smallest neural ping, where else is there to go but further down into matter ?
I think the allusion to quantum fluctuations is a little speculative or at least ahead of clear proof - but then it does seem like a reasonable analogy at least, and awaits confirmation with instruments - if that's possible.
He's an anestheologist so I would assume he knows all about that Hameroff (who is an anestheologist) and Penrose stuff.

How would someone actually look at the neurological interaction with virtual particles, granting that it might not even be neurological but all pervasive ?
I will watch this and see if he (prof Hameroff) tells me.

Now I am nicely over my head in the physics sea, but hey ho.

Edit: and here, as I am on the subject, Prof Hameroff here explains how collapsing of  superposition states produces consciousness, rather than the other way round which is the usual way of talking about it. In other words, I think, in the famous schroedinger's cat scenario, the death or life of the cat causes it to be seen.... type of thing...

So a whole range of possibilities exist at a quantum level, until it collapses into one state and consciousness occurs. One world appears out of many.
Flipping through doc DiLullo's book (p212),
"Consciousness doesn't have to go away; it is simply experienced as another vivid no-distance sense. There is no inside and there is no outside. There is no other possibility, as every other possibility is playing out effortlessly as the universe coming into being and dissolving as each ex discreet quanta of sense phenomena, each movement, each expression of radiance."

Which I thought sounded like many worlds theory when I read it, and I think he's definitely getting at something like that. If I'm not hopelessly wooifying it all :-)

So, ok my next question is - is this a two way thing - in which collapse of a superposition can cause consciousness and consciousness can cause collapse of a superposition state. A bit like electric current can move a magnet and moving a magnet can cause electric current.... ?

And now, as all this is about quantum events in microtubules orchestrating consciousness in possibly harmonious or dissonant ways, how this may fit with Dan's kazoo player (p244 Player's Manual 2nd edition rules). Hmm.

Noting that quanta used here isn't necessarily used to describe a specific quantum physical event, but just a sense of discreetness - I think. Although maybe yeah he is alluding to that. Hm dunno.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 6 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Stickman3:

So, ok my next question is - is this a two way thing - in which collapse of a superposition can cause consciousness and consciousness can cause collapse of a superposition state. A bit like electric current can move a magnet and moving a magnet can cause electric current.... ?


I’m in way over my head too, but if time doesn’t exist, does it even make sense to talk about one thing causing another thing? Wouldn’t they just already coexist?
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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Listening to #1. I also bought the book.
Read most of the book and heard the interviews. He is really good. For an instructional point of view, if you're not a complete newbie, I would suggest start reading at chapter 15 (Self-Inquiry) and chapter 16 (Awakening), and then exploring chapters 11-14 for more pointers on Thoughts, Beliefs and Emotions.

​​​​​​​
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
Flipping through to the dirty bits, eh ? Me too.

I've been getting into his interpretation of the ox herding pictures, as the story gets emptier and emptier, time and space drop out of the picture, things change...
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Alesh Vyhnal, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 126 Join Date: 2/14/13 Recent Posts
I don't want to sound too critical. This one I am reading just now and in my opinion it is real dharma by real master. I wish I had such a teacher. I even believe him all the supernatural abilities, interractions and events:

​​​​​​​Meido Moore: Hidden Zen, 2020
Thanks Alesh, I'll check it out. Seems like there's a huge list of zen practices. 
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Jim Smith, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

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I looked at his videos and bought the book and I am seeing something that I've seen with other people where they say (paraphrasing) 1) it's not an experience, it's permanent but 2) after the first glimpse you have to keep practicing to learn to live it moment to moment.

It sounds like a contradiction to me.  

And his book has a chapter on working with emotions ... when you listen to the video it sounds like inquiry is a shortcut to get rid of emotions (end suffering), but then you get the book and find out, no you can't avoid the hard painful work of accepting your emotions (letting go feels like actual loss). So why do the inquiry? For a glimpse to point you in the right direction? Why not just work with emotions - learn how to let go of attachments and aversion (surrender), so you can let go of all the things you want for yourself and accept all the things you don't want for yourself. Isn't that what you have to do to end the illusion of separation? When you've given up all the things you wanted for yourself and accepted all the things you didn't want for yourself you've eliminated the basis for concieving of a separate self (and ended suffering - mental anguish - at the same time)

Is inquiry a painless short cut through this process? 

It seems to me inquiry is a lot like working with the anatta aspect of the three characteristics. In every experience the idea of self is there instigating trouble. Who/what is causing this trouble? In that way inquiry is the same as working with emotions.

I think the book is okay, but I don't know why they have to represent it as the best book ever written and presents everthing better than anyone has ever done in the past. All the books are presented that way and I always fall for it and spend the money. I would recommend anyone interested in buying the book, if money is an issue, have a look at an acutal book in the bookstore rather than just ordering it on-line.

And I would find the fourth path claimants more convincing if they showed evidence of having ended suffering - like they can do easily what most people would find impossible - like reducing his professional fees because he sees that he doesn't need so much money to be happy, or moving to Calcultta to take care of orphans.
Stickman3, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
Jim it's a good question I have wondered about - if self inquiry and other techniques take you past emotions then why bother with emotional work  ?
I do find this oddly contradictory how people can lose their self but retain emotions - which are supposed to be based on a self. What is a non-self based emotion ? What's it for ? Why is it there ? Why doesn't it get the message ? I feel like there's a paradox here that I kind of get but also don't.
On the other hand most people in the higher paths report a great reduction even if not a complete cleansing of emotions (from what I've seen).

Problem with the feed the orphans thing is that isn't in the buddha story, Gotama saw messed up people and went on a spiritual quest rather than stay and open a soup kitchen or people's pharmacy. But I don't think healing the sick or feeding the poor is the route to enlightenment either. Maybe for a few, but you would expect NGOs to be full of buddhas if so. Dan's a fine example. Went to India, worked with the poor, lifetime of medical service, still needed retreats. It all goes into the mix I guess and who knows what causes what in the end ?

I'm not really convinced about the difference between emotional thinking and practical thinking either. The practical often has an overarching emotional drive - it's generally for some reward for example wages, and hence survival and procreation etc., but I suppose the flow of creativity too. Creative flow of ideas is entwined to emotional drives, even if that's forgotten in the act of thinking. The threat of your wife leaving because you don't want to think about your job any more - that would be pretty emotional, that's emotional motivation to think about how to turn up at work and consider practicalities.

Usually the most miserable thinking is to do with our social lives, chewing over how we can make that go better, engineering our relationships.

It looks like the idea is, more or less, to lose our thought based grievances in the social arena but retain our ability to do our thought based jobs or pastimes, but it's never really stated in those terms. Usually in these cases (spiritual teachers) there is bad emotional thinking that we don't need, and good practical thinking that we do.

You could ask OK if the emotional fear of death drives practical thinking - the wage earning etc., what happens when death stops being an issue ? Do you just grind to a halt, sit down and starve ? I think your heart keeps beating and you keep breathing and survival goes on even if death isn't an emotional fear any more - which it isn't supposed to be for buddhists I believe. hm

Anyway I'm finding something good in this work, it's been really good.
I'm kind of confused by your responses. I think you've spent enough time on this forum to see that getting rid of emotions isn't the point. 4th Path = super good moral actions doesn't really seem to be the case either. I'm also not sure when the author presented their work as the best ever either from watching the interviews. I'm interested in what your practice is. I do agree that inquiry is like anatta investigation in vipassana. Except maybe vipassana is seeing that no sensation is self(not just sensations of emotions, but all sensations). I assume inquiry gets to that point too since really with inquiry and all of these practices we're allowing our attention to reveal the wisdom of the present moment, the non duality that already is just not seen clearly. Awakening to nonduality is a view that become accessible much more so than it being an experience. Along the path we refine our view and see things ever more clearly. 
Stickman3, modified 23 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
My current practice is reading books and relaxing, and trying to see directly what's being referred too. Maybe transmission too. And contemplating the fabricated quality of the sensory world - stripped of individual self it's still got a quality of "I" even when the "I" is in everything phenomenal and the world seems like a stage set suspended outside of time - or a being dreaming everything into existence. Asking myself where this I and being come from ? Is it contiguous with a void or empty quality, like they say ? That's pretty much it, don't want techniques at the moment. Also, at the moment, I get the sense that practices are - like many have said - part of the story of the individual and aren't really 'it'. Comes and goes, might change, might not, have to see.
Stickman3, modified 20 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 128 Join Date: 1/15/21 Recent Posts
"I'm kind of confused by your responses. I think you've spent enough time on this forum to see that getting rid of emotions isn't the point."

Well thing is to me it does seem like a major point of buddhism - hence all the talk of defilements, character and equanimity - you're better off without emotions. Much of humanity agrees with this but differs in how to solve it, and to what degree, and also which emotions are permissible and which not - which is strongly culturally conditioned.
Buddhists also seem to disagree on how far emotions should be lost, which to keep around, which to be rid of, which are likely to fall away due to practice, to what degree is emotionality a sign of progress - though generally tending to less emotion along the path.
They do seem to agree on who should experience the emotions - ie. nobody in particular. Given that being somebody in particular is the basis for much emotion you would expect some major emotional change.
But is being someone in particular the basis for much emotion ? Maybe I'm assuming too much.
> It seems to me inquiry is a lot like working with the anatta aspect of the three characteristics.

Yes, no doubt about it. I believe it's the standard understanding of how Self-Inquiry is placed among the wide range of meditation tools, seen from a Buddhist perspective. Yet, you're working too with Anicca -by seeing the tendency of sliding back to memories or jumping to future scenarios, instead of being in the Now- and Dukkha -sensing the resistance to be in the Now, in particular holding so closely to (being so intimate with) emotions-. So you're working with the whole enchilada: the 6 senses and the 3 Characteristics.

When you listen to the video it sounds like inquiry is a shortcut to get rid of emotions (end suffering), but then you get the book and find out, no you can't avoid the hard painful work of accepting your emotions (letting go feels like actual loss). So why do the inquiry? For a glimpse to point you in the right direction? Why not just work with emotions - learn how to let go of attachments and aversion (surrender), so you can let go of all the things you want for yourself and accept all the things you don't want for yourself.

Not that I don't agree with you on that. But I think Self-Inquiry is just a different tactic to get to that full surrender moment. Kind of Zen's "Samadhi shattering". Push you to your limits to embrace at the same time all thoughts, emotions and raw sensations really really close, in your core (that's what I'm experimenting anyway). So, it's kind of crash course to High-EQ ...

Maybe Shargrol would disagree/correct me, but he sees value in Self-Inquiry when your practice gets stagnant (link). The only difference is that instead of "meditating in the mindstream", as thoughts kind of dissapear as you inquiry on the appearance of thoughts, it feels like "meditating in the raw-sensations/emotions stream".

What I find is a qualitative difference between this 2nd Gear practice and our usual DhO theravadish practice. They look for (at least it's my interpretation) a WOW factor that hits in your core beliefs and would cement the perceptual change. I'm not implying that a Theravada's cessation wouldn't have that kind of wow factor, but most/all reports I have read/heard in Self-Inquiry have an assertiveness and a 'lastingness' (is that English?) that I rarely see in stream enterers. 

   
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Balint Pinczes, modified 24 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 56 Join Date: 8/3/18 Recent Posts
I think some of you might find this conversation (Spiritual Awakening: Breaking the Glass -- Part 1) between Alma and Angelo interesting.

Beware, the pace of it is definitely slow.

I am really curious as to what you think. Personally, she bought me emoticon (Him, too, I mean he did as well.)

Also, reading the book and there is stuff in there (practice-oriented stuff) that really seems helpful.
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Niels Lyngsø, modified 21 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 327 Join Date: 11/15/19 Recent Posts
Thank you so much for pointing to this ressource!

I watched all the interview videos and just bought the book, looking forward to reading it. My intuition (which is that of a pre-SE yogi, so take it with a ton of salt) is that this guy knows what he is talking about, ie. is awake to some degree.

He is a physician like Daniel Ingram, which is more than a fun fact IMO, since it promises (and hopefully keeps) an at the same time rational and compassionate approach. He actually mentions Daniel at one point. It could be very interesting to hear a conversation between the two, also because of their differences: Ingram always refers explicitly to all sorts of (mainly buddhist) traditions, Dilullo has sort of integrated his knowledge into his own thing (although he mentions for instance zen and Eckhart Tolle). And Ingram is extrovert bordering on flamboyant, while Dilullo seems like a more introverted, almos shy guy.

So Steve James of Guru Viking Podcast or Michael Taft of Deconstructing Yourself, if you by chance are reading along here, consider giving us a conversation with Dilullo, either solo or with Ingram. Because the interviewer in this series has very little knowledge about meditation, which is reflected in his questions. It could be interesting to dive deeper!

A last thought: Dilullo mentions the word "intimacy" a lot, a concept and an understanding (of how to approach the nondual state) also frequently used by shargrol.

​​​​​​​All in all, I think many DhO'ers would find this (to me) new guy worth checking out!
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Steve James, modified 19 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 103 Join Date: 2/15/19 Recent Posts
Niels Lyngsø Thank you so much for pointing to this ressource! I watched all the interview videos and just bought the book, looking forward to reading it. My intuition (which is that of a pre-SE yogi, so take it with a ton of salt) is that this guy knows what he is talking about, ie. is awake to some degree. He is a physician like Daniel Ingram, which is more than a fun fact IMO, since it promises (and hopefully keeps) an at the same time rational and compassionate approach. He actually mentions Daniel at one point. It could be very interesting to hear a conversation between the two, also because of their differences: Ingram always refers explicitly to all sorts of (mainly buddhist) traditions, Dilullo has sort of integrated his knowledge into his own thing (although he mentions for instance zen and Eckhart Tolle). And Ingram is extrovert bordering on flamboyant, while Dilullo seems like a more introverted, almos shy guy. So Steve James of Guru Viking Podcast or Michael Taft of Deconstructing Yourself, if you by chance are reading along here, consider giving us a conversation with Dilullo, either solo or with Ingram. Because the interviewer in this series has very little knowledge about meditation, which is reflected in his questions. It could be interesting to dive deeper! A last thought: Dilullo mentions the word "intimacy" a lot, a concept and an understanding (of how to approach the nondual state) also frequently used by shargrol. All in all, I think many DhO'ers would find this (to me) new guy worth checking out!
Great minds think alike!
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 19 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 3193 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Hey, I'm game if that would be fun and helpful.
shargrol, modified 18 Days ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 1575 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Great idea Niels, Steve, and Daniel! emoticon
Yeah, great idea Niels!

One thing I would like them to discuss is about 'Bahiya flavours', perhaps a refinement of 'in the seen, only the seen; in the heard, only the heard; in the sensed, only the sensed; in the cognized, only the cognized'. John Tan says that "the six senses seamlessly inter-permeate each other ... the not only the eyes see; the ears see; the nose sees". Angelo Dilullo (edited) quotes a "primal sense"/"empty sense". DreamWalker says that the boundaries between the sense doors drop, that there's a "merge into one continuous field". Daniel Ingram don't deny a  "one sense door" frame but seems to see it more like a 'tool' than as an aspect of an ultimate reality. Rob Burbea seemed to be speaking of love as a byproduct of it (probably). Shinzen Young, about creation/uncreation in the Source... etc.  Are these 'Bahiya flavours' related to personal preferences, meditation frameworks and/or related to the Three Characteristics?
Hi, thanks for posting this, very interesting.

For those who have read the book, are there practice instructions to take a beginner in this type of practice from start to finish, with some sort of 'progress of insight' map or description of the states/stages one would encounter along the way?

It sounds to me, from what I've read in this thread, that he attained whatever state he's in now through a different practice than the one he's describing in this book and in these interviews.  

​​​​​​​In the past I have read a few books from similar teachers - people teaching a different practice than the one that did if for them - and have been a bit disappointed in the practical real-world instructions they included in their book.

Thanks, Peace,
As far as I understand, he walked his own path in the beginning and then had a zen teacher for higher stages. The book Awake: It's Your Turn includes a chapter describing a 'progress of insight' map. The book is focused in 'kensho' (initial awakening: I Am or Boundless Consciousness). That he had to leave aside the post-initial awakening practices for a second book, to be finished soon apparently, otherwise a single book would be too long for the editorial to publish it. But that those further practices point back to what it's already described in his first book, about mind-identity, thoughts, beliefs and emotions. That's all I can say as for know.
Thanks for the reply, Pepe.

So, would you say, if a beginner read just this one book that there's enough practical instruction to take that person to initial awakening?  and then after that, they're on their own..

I've listened to his talks and videos, all I've heard so far is talk "about" enlightenment, what it's like and what happens when you get there.  I haven't heard anything real, like "this is what you do.." which is what I'm interested in, sort of a "The Mind Illuminated"-style practice guide for kensho.

Thanks, peace,
Chris, I really can't say as I'm a beginner too. I like his book as he explains the Self-Inquiry method with much more detail than anything I have seen before. He is a sort of "pragmatic zen" guy, knows the teachings and terminology of Theravada's and Zen's camp, but his words are in plain English.

Many Self-Inquiry books and guys I've read in online groups are all about perceptual change.  What I like of Angelo's book is that right after describing the awakening stages, he points towards mind-identity, thoughts, beliefs and emotions. Only then, he explains in the last two chapters the Self-Inquiry method. So it's as balanced as you can get from this camp. Probably you know I'm a big fun of Shargrol's approach to walk through the dharma path. So far, Angelo's is the closest one I've found from the Self-Inquiry camp. As for pre and post awakening online support, he has a facebook group "Awakening, Realization and Liberation", so it might be a good idea to check it out.
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Sam Gentile, modified 1 Day ago.

RE: Fourth path attainer Dr. Angelo Dilullo, MD - Brighton, CO - Anesthesio

Posts: 1269 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
I've read most of the book and it has blown me away with a lot of things to think about how I was conducted my practice and how i went to continue it. For now, I  want to ask, he uses the word "Prescence" a lot in the book and the SimplyAwake meditations. IN his context, what does he mean by prescence?
Sam, I  would say that "presence" =  "immediate consciousness", "a sense of being/beingness". But I'm working on it, so I can't say much more, no kensho yet. So far, from my experiential pov, I would describe it as a silent mind coupled with a non-discriminative openess to what the five senses capture. The best option would be that you ask about it in the facebook group, I saw you joined the group. 
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