What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Is there any myth of the sun in Buddhism, and is there any practice or relationship to insight involving said heavenly body?
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Stickman3
Is there any myth of the sun in Buddhism, and is there any practice or relationship to insight involving said heavenly body?
If you are committed to the path of dharma according to the insight leading to elevation (a training revealed during some forms of equanimity) as Tibetan and other Buddhists say, than you can combine sun gazing with levitation. It is a secret training. I am not sure if it corresponds to any Tantra, so if there is any inkling that you might be interested in Tantra, I cannot explain.

Dietrich

​​​​​​​Edit. This series of posts reflects an energetic experience I had.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

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I am not interested in Tantra. Nor am I affected by it. Also, can I be excused from this topic?
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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If you absolutely have to be...
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

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I don't have the answers
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Ben V., modified 2 Months ago.

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Interesting that I read your question now after I've skimmed through Bhikkhu Punnadhammo's book 'Buddhist Cosmology' this morning. He does present a Buddhist myth of the Sun, so you may find some answers in that book. I don't remember which page but I think it was in the section on the first sensuous heaven world, Catumaharajika (4 Great Kings). The Sun was seen as the mansion of the deva Suriya, and that he was responsible for the Sun's movements. Nothing said about any insight practices though. 
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Ah Ben thanks I might get a hold of that book. I've been getting into the idea of the Sun as a living being,  but also of it having the power to detirmine when and where we awaken - a chain of being type thing.

Causes of awakening in buddhism is a tricky thing because although buddhism seems to offer a path in which the efforts of one's self detirmine one's awakening, and that's how people commonly talk about it, and even here Dan describes it in terms of dosage of practice, one of the insights of awakening is that there is no causal self to detirmine such things.
And neither can causality be placed outside one's self in a teacher or other circumstance, so placing the cause of awakening in someone like Gotama isn't valid either.
So where does that leave the idea of a cosmic body like the sun being determinate of our awakening ?

You can say it is highly determinant of our physical, changing circumstance - the character of the phenomenal world, including the part of that world is, for example, Gotama.
A causal chain could be - the Sun makes the Earth, Earth makes Gotama, Gotama makes awakening, and here we are.
At least that's the order which post-Copernican moderns like us would put it, the ancient Indians would see things differently.

Some would say well, sure, that's what it looks like... but emptiness and acausality - nothing makes anything.


BTW does the book have graphics that would be a bit awkward on kindle ?
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Ah Ben, I found a cosmology vid from Biscuit Puddingdharma, going into comparisons between old and new, east/west
and chain of being. Interesting schema. What I'm really looking for is something a little bit Platonic in which the sun kind of lives in an eternal world outside of space and time.
Buddhist Cosmology (1): Space, Time and Being

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Ben V., modified 2 Months ago.

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No graphics except the front cover page. You can take a look at the book here: https://www.arrowriver.ca/book/cosmo.pdf

He has interesting reflections at the end of the book that can be used to foster insight.

When you talk of the Sun potentially having some causal role in when and where we awaken, it makes me think of Astrology and Feng Shui. These things have interesting stuff to say about using the optimal circumstances in terms of time, place, structure of the environment, for maximum results. There are even monks-to-be in Sri Lanka who will consult Astrologers on choosing the right day to ordain.

Although I find these things, just like cosmology, interesting to look at to a certain degree, I think it can easily become a trap where we become obsessed with auspicious outside circumstances, in a search to have or feel in control. Lots of mental noise! Not saying it's your case but that it's a potential trap. In the documentary on Buddhism I saw where they mentioned a monk ordaining on an astrologically choosen day, another monk commented that according to the Buddha, the best day to ordain is when your mind is determined for it (or something like that). 

Gotta love the Buddha for always returning us to look at our own mind!

I think the best attitude is to practice and leave the rest to nature.
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Thank you for the book tip.
Skipping the question of the sun being causal to awakening, we can certainly say it's causal to all the rhythms we have as an organism - personally with circadian rhythms and impersonally with seasonal rhythms. Jhanas, A&P blissouts, dark night emotions - come under that rubric. And there we have astrology, sort of, except we've got a different understanding of such things than the Babylonians. I haven't seen anyone state it explicity, but I would think insight cycling has much to do with circadian rhythms.
I think that's a good point about control, but attempts to control and use natural rhythms characterises our civilization. It occurs to me that there is likely to be enough data around to try and correlate circadian rhythms with path of insight events from apps like headspace & etc., then we could see empirically if there is auspiciousness (auspicacity?) to timing ?
Also, what if just ploughing on (a seasonal activity) with practice can lead to something like overtraining, ignoring our natural rhythms. Hence a month of waking up at dawn when we're not used to it can send some people doolally, and buddhism gone bad ? Or we could consider how unhealthy shift work is. Stuff like that ? Our society both uses and ignores rhythms.
In fact weight training might be an excellent analogy, because developing the jhanas and weight training both involve manipulating hormones and neurotransmitters. And there's certainly the contemplative equivalent of broscience. I would class astrology as ancient broscience. Babylonian broscience :-) Broscience - such a good word.
And actually you might have a point that I do seek too much control, is something that became clear to me lately, seeing meditation as a method of self control, and enlightenment as the ultimate control and guarantee I think has been going on in the background. Seems like it's gradually dropping away.

Anyway I'm sure there are many revelations to come about the sun.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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This sounds like fear ñana to me. Are you cycling rapidly? 
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oh right well I hadn't thought of it like that, I just got used to the idea that these cycles may indeed apply to me as well ! But I'd be hard pressed to say it's anything different from a normal circadian cycle - if that's a contention, which it may not be.
What is fear ñana ? Fear is often a response to wanting something, so probably ties in with the goal oriented part of a circadian rhythm. Maybe you're a fisherman, and the fear of drowning at sea plays on your mind - well, that's a tidal rhythm too. So then you've got solar and lunar rhythms interacting.

Maybe I could reiterate the point that there is likely enough data to have a go at empirical conclusions. Say, for instance, the headspace app has millions of users globally, it would just be a matter of gathering some reports and matching with sleep patterns.

Here we are, https://www.headspace.com/

Meditation, sleep and stress (ñanas) in one big data cohort.
Cross ref with sunspots, geomagnetic activity, solar storms etc.... ?

Did you notice I adopted your ñ instead of being lazy ? :-)

Ah, now, here a few dots that maybe will be joined one day, if not already.
Humans have a magnetoception ability - but it is unconscious. But maybe not to expert meditators ... ? Speculating.
Solar-storms-can-weaken-earth-s-magnetic-field. Plus many more types of Sun/Earth magnetic interaction.

The lab - https://maglab.caltech.edu/human-magnetic-reception-laboratory/

An interesting speculation -
"In our experiment, alpha-ERD shows that the human brain can detect Earth-strength magnetic fields, demonstrating that we have a sensory system that processes the geomagnetic field all around us. Potentially, we and/or our nomadic hunter-gatherer ancestors could use a magnetic sense to navigate and survive."

Is that reminiscent of any buddhist powers or mythology ?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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I'm not dismissing your thoughts. I believe reality can be understood according to multiple logics, and I'm not so sure that we even know what life is. We just take one kind of definition for granted. 

It was just a thought that you seemed to worry a lot, which may very well be a misinterpretation on my part. For me personally, it has sometimes been hard to catch up with the varying reactive patterns in rapid cycling, so I thought that after all your recent developments, maybe that could be something to reflect on. Are you in a fear-based pattern right now? Is it even helpful to worry about practicing in a way that disturbs some ideal rhythm? What can you do about it? Let's assume that there is such an ideal rhythm. Then how do you know that trying to follow it is not the very thing that messes with it? I would guess that you'll be fine a long as you listen to your body. In my experience, it has means to say no quite firmly if needed. 

Feel free to dismiss this if I'm misinterpreting the whole thing. I'm all for enthusiastic idea exchanges and creative brainstorming. I just don't have much knowledge around Buddhist cosmology. 
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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I wouldn't say I'm mega worried but thank you for yoru concern. That's a good point about the ideal rhythm. I think if there is an ideal rhythm then something like headspace data should show it.
I just read that getting up earlier cuts depression. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210528114107.htm
"A genetic study of 840,000 people found that shifting sleep time earlier by just an hour decreases risk of major depression by 23 percent. "

There's your (meaning people generally) ñanas cut down right there with a $10 alarm clock. I should do that.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

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Ah, okay, great.

Getting up earlier and exposing oneself to daylight if possible and otherwise fullspectrum light, that does make a difference. That alone is not enough if one is prone to depression, though. There are lots of simple things that one can do, including a brilliant Tibetan practice that in itself combines many of the common strategies, and I have often combined all of them, and yet I can't get off my medz. If there isn't enough serotonine, depression will occur anyway. But for those who as their default have a healthy balance of neurotransmittors, getting daylight early in the morning might be enough. It sure does help together with medz and other strategies for me. 
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö
Ah, okay, great.

Getting up earlier and exposing oneself to daylight if possible and otherwise fullspectrum light, that does make a difference. That alone is not enough if one is prone to depression, though. There are lots of simple things that one can do, including a brilliant Tibetan practice that in itself combines many of the common strategies, and I have often combined all of them, and yet I can't get off my medz. If there isn't enough serotonine, depression will occur anyway. But for those who as their default have a healthy balance of neurotransmittors, getting daylight early in the morning might be enough. It sure does help together with medz and other strategies for me. 
When the Autumnal equinox comes is a time to check your mortality meter. You can read about it in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It's something about checking your shadow against the night sky for completeness. A less than complete shadow may indicate your coming death.
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hmm, poetic.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

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Sorry I meant Autumnal Equinox.
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Cino, modified 2 Months ago.

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Stickman3
Is there any myth of the sun in Buddhism, and is there any practice or relationship to insight involving said heavenly body?


What comes to my mind is the evocative verse at the end of Bahiya Sutta, about the place where the sun doesn't shine... the Buddha phrased it better ;) Anyway, that Sutta contains some very powerful practice advice.

There is this interesting sutta: Suriya Sutta about the Sun asking the Buddha for help.

In the Western Esoteric Tradition(s), there are quite a few practices involving the sun, and light. Crowley's Liber Resh vel Helios is one such practice, which can be implemented as anything from quick mindfulness four times a day to an elaborate ritual involving meditation four times a day.

Another good practice involving (sun)light is the Qabalistic Cross (the version I linked has a little twist to it, in that the first name is usually "Ateh" rather than "Eheieh", "Thou" rather than "I" in Hebrew).

Nothing to stop one from constructing something that works in one's personal practice and cosmology. Recite Suriya Sutta, facing the sun (or those verses from Bahiya Sutta) at Sunrise, Noon, and Sunset, before meditating? Create a variant of the Qabalistic Cross, using Buddha, Dharma, Sangha instead of the Hebrew words?
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Hmm, it's interesting thank you. What did Crowley think of the Sun itself ?
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Cino, modified 1 Month ago.

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Stickman3
Hmm, it's interesting thank you. What did Crowley think of the Sun itself ?


It is quite important in Western Esotericism in general, and Crowley is no exception. All of this is online nowadays, a quick search engine query will yield ample results.

Question to the Moderators: This being the "Magick and the Powers" sub-forum, I hope discussing Magick (as in Crowley, or Chaos Magick) in a hands-on fashion is not off-topic?
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Not sure what buddhism says but imho sun is very very LOUD... not to mention super hot emoticon
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago.

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Oh hot as anything the sun. Well known for it. Famous.
But is there any indication, in Buddhism, that the Sun is an immortal cosmic being held in eternity and rendered in space time by the human senses, with a role as creator and director of intelligent life in the solar system in coordination with all the other eternal stellar beings in the universe ? I know buddhism generally doesn't like eternal things...
Suck it and see I suppose, the path will reveal.
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

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Definitely not eternal.
In buddhism everything has a cause thus also the beginning and everything is impermanent thus all things, including seemingly eternal cosmic entities, will come to an end, eventually. And this include universe itself.
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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"Definitely not eternal.
In buddhism everything has a cause thus also the beginning and everything is impermanent thus all things, including seemingly eternal cosmic entities, will come to an end, eventually. And this include universe itself."

But it's a bit trickier than that isn't it ? Because if you have a cyclical universe, which I believe would be the Indian Buddhist one, then the universe never goes away it just kind of breathes in and out - and thus the universe is changing, but eternal.

For the universe to be truly impermanent you want something like the big bang theory in which it starts from nothing, evolves, then dies a heat death forever, never to return, don't you ? You need something like a cosmic cessation, otherwise you always have a something.

Maybe I'm mixing up the uses of eternal, because in English there are a couple of uses.
(1) Eternal meaning for all time - such as a universe expanding and contracting forever.
(2) Eternal meaning outside of time - such as whatever is perceived with a completely still mind

Im looking at buddhist descriptions of the phenomenal world outside of time, so that's a description of eternal things isn't it ?
And is the sun one of those things ?
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Do you wear ear protectors instead of shades ? :-)
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

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This thread is starting to resemble an article in the fortean times, or maybe an episode from the x-files!
but if you care about human perception of earth strength magnetic fields then you need to include the schumann resonance in your calculations 

let's get back to basics...

the sun:
- it's not me, at least not the last time i looked
- it's not permanent; in a few billion years it will die away after eating planet earth
- it's not that satisfying, i just had to step inside as it was too hot out.

Still, all this chatter is better than getting bored. 

"But is there any indication, in Buddhism, that the Sun is an immortal cosmic being held in eternity and rendered in space time by the human senses, with a role as creator and director of intelligent life in the solar system in coordination with all the other eternal stellar beings in the universe ?"
If the sun was some kind of extra-terrestrial god being how would that help you?  Is the lack of divine assistance holding you back?
Why should intelligent life need to be directed by something outside spacetime? Of all possible things why pick on that?


Carry on everyone, time for my set of sun salutations....
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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the sun:
- it's not me, at least not the last time i looked
- it's not permanent; in a few billion years it will die away after eating planet earth
- it's not that satisfying, i just had to step inside as it was too hot out.

- which me ?
- what you see in space and time aren't permanent. Isn't eternity outside of space and time ?
- shrug

Is the lack of divine assistance holding you back? Obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be the ignorant person I am.

If the sun was some kind of extra-terrestrial god being how would that help you? It would confirm a western spiritual philosophy that I am cross checking. It might cut out the middle men like Gotama too and save a bit of time. That's me teasing you.

Thing is, I know buddhism is supposed to be about non-eternalness and non-essentialness, but I do see buddhists describing things that look like eternal essences. Eternal not meaning lasts for all time, but rather eternal meaning outside of space and time.

So for instance in DiLullo's (you might not have read it but I'm assuming other similar descriptions exist anywhere there is deep contemplation) book he mention's Plato's analogy of the cave, and then proceeds to describe the world with ever decreasing levels of self, time and space until indeed it does begin to sound like an eternal world. eg. "The trees, objects, and celestial bodies in this world are pristine, alive, radiant and intimate in a way they simply could not be when reflected off the surface. Now you begin a deeper exploration of the details of this world of the actual. What is the underlying essence of the stars and the moon that cannot be experienced as objects ? What is this interconnected nature that is intuited in all radiant experience ? What is the nature of this "here and gone without a trace" aspect of everything ?"

And then the realisations he describes go deeper, so OK maybe Plato wasn't the deepest guy, but there's at least some congruity, at least as it's expressed in English, between Buddhism and Western philosophy - to an extent. So I wondered what that extent was, and whether it means Western philosophy is all rubbish written by fools to be discarded in favour of Buddhism, or whether they are approaching the same things in different language or levels of realisation.

ETC!

I do take your point about basics - suck it and see. Which will involve glueing a fridge magnet to my forehead in order to harmonise my brain waves with the intergalactic magnetic resonance. [joke, in case you are German [another (tastelessly nationalist) joke]].
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

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This topic is basically trolling lite. A person could easily get the answers to the questions posed here (Google, anyone?), but that then negates the entertainment value.
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Couldn't most of this website be got from google, and isn't this website actually where google points people ? Well, if anyone wants to know about the same topic then they google it to here and get their question answered by buddhists - which I thought was the point of the whole thing. Otherwise you would have just a few links to buddhist scripture and that would be that wouldn't it ?
I mean, I already did that google search, and it led me to the place where buddhists openly discuss questions, and hence the sun etc. Doesn't guarantee an answer, but you don't know until you prod the question around a bit.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

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Are you a serious student of buddhism? Do you have a serious meditation practice?
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Chris Marti
Are you a serious student of buddhism? Do you have a serious meditation practice?

What am I ? That's the question isn't it ? The more serious I am, the less I'm able to answer.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

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You're never serious about the conversation here. It's obvious to me that you're more interested in messing with people and giving bullshit answers like the one you just gave me than you are learning or contributing anything of value.

Let's try this again - do you have a meditation practice?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

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Uhm, Chris, we have been discussing phenomenology and exchanged pointers, so I'm pretty sure he has a practice. I thought that reply was serious. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Half serious. What is serious ? If people absolutely have to know then I'm looking at the reobservation section in MCTB and all the non-cushiony, somewhat random things people do, and it rings bells. If you'll excuse me I have a body to stretch. See you later !
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Has anyone said I messed with them ? I don't feel like telling you about my practice now. What would be the point ? I've got books and google and hundreds of web pages here for practice techniques and maps. What I haven't got much of, and I have googled it a bit, is buddhist ideas about the sun that may correlate with more Western ideas.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

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I don't feel like telling you about my practice now. What would be the point ?


Uhm, Chris, we have been discussing phenomenology and exchanged pointers, so I'm pretty sure he has a practice. I thought that reply was serious. 


Well then, he's all yours now, Linda.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

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I kind of assumed he was his own, and that any interaction is on mutual consensus basis. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Mate it was a question about cosmology, not about practice. People started going on about practice instead.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

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Restating - I'm letting this go, and if Stickman3 needs moderation it's all yours to do.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

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Fair enough. Will do. Thanks! 

And I'll be upfront about my terms, Stickman3. I don't mind discussions about the wider context of the dharma. I don't think that everything we write needs to be about practice details. However, there needs to be a balance, and this forum is sort of a haven for those who want to dig into the nitty gritty details of their practice - tech and phenomenology. So - if you find that you are in one of those inspired phases during which you are dying to discuss or reflect on many different things that arent related to your practice, it would probably be a good idea to start one thread dedicated to that, with a broad title, and trust that those who are interested in non-practicerelated discussions will find it anyway. You are also welcome to the latest version of Bard(do) of last resort where chatting is welcome. 

And since I have seen you write about insight-related experiences, please feel welcome to start your own log where you can get pointers that are hopefully helpful for your current territory. It doesn't have to be any traditional method, and you don't have to use any specific terms. It doesn't have to be Buddhist. Of course this isn't mandatory. It might help navigating the territory, though, and it might help those who read it. And if things sort of happen on their own, outside a systematic practice regime, that can still be an interesting journey to share. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Thank you .

You have many forums and not all of it is digging into phenomenological nitty gritty. You're free to cut down your forums of course if you want tighter focus, otherwise it's an invitation to approach the subject, pragmatically, outside of dogma and doctrine, isn't it ? I thought I did start with a broad title in axactly the way you say, and put it in a category that isn't so diary based. Can't see what more I could do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 I was probably thinking of brain interaction with the Earth's magnetic field has to do with the powers (very speculative and controversial) when I put it here, but in the science bit would maybe be a better category.

The connection with the sun being, of course, the interaction of the sun with the Earth's magnetic field. Like I said, pretty speculative, Persinger (God Helmet fame) and his students are probably the few people proposing this, and there's a bit of a replication problem. And maybe as our friend said a bit x-filesy, but nevertheless it's a subject. Given the the fact that there is even a powers forum here, I think we are well into x-files territory and out the other side already :-)

Interaction between animals and the Earth's magnetic field is pretty well documented by now. So why not humans, and why not relevant to mysticism ?

ta
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

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I don't mind this thread, so no problem. Engaging with it is optional. I was talking about the hypothetic scenario of a more spam-like situation, quantitywise. In that case, it might be preferable to have the topics collected in one thread, like "Stickman3's interactive brainstorming thread" or something. 

It's a pity that the "recent posts" function doesn't show what category a thread belongs to. I think that would make it easier for people to navigate and pick and choose what threads to read. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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I'm interested in lots of stuff so it gets pretty busy, and this is a rare place where realised and scientifically literate people come to openly share.

I also haven't really got used to the internet and it's forums and tweets & etc. I wouldn't want to moderate me :-)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

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Yeah, you seem to be. emoticon Nothing wrong with that.

I believe we'll find ways to allow for enthusiastic interactions without overwhelming the forum. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

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Only one way to find out if people are into the sun, turns out to be a bit of a minority interest among online pragmatic buddhists, though I do know a bit more about buddhist cosmology now from Biscuit Puddingdharma. So probably I'll do a bit of private study about this topic, but I did find a nice little nugget here https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190731-is-the-moon-impacting-your-mood-and-wellbeing

"Wehr found that his patients fell into one of two categories: some people’s mood swings appeared to follow a 14.8-day cycle, others a 13.7-day cycle – although some of them occasionally switched between these cycles.... One idea is that this triggers subtle fluctuations in the Earth’s magnetic field, to which some people might be sensitive.

“The oceans are electrically conducting because they’re made of salty water, and as they flow around with the tides that has a magnetic field associated with it,” says Robert Wickes, a space weather expert at University College London. Yet, the effect is tiny and whether the Moon’s effect on the Earth’s magnetic field is strong enough to induce biological changes is unclear.

“The problem is not that it’s not possible that these things may happen, it’s that the research into it is very limited so it’s very hard to say anything definitive,” Wickes explains."

So, hm, see if anything comes from this field.

tnx.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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I sometimes have a sense of the elements being alive, as part of the inherent aliveness and the dance between emptiness and form, and I consider the sun part of the fire element. It seems like the fire element is the one that I have the hardest time connecting with. Maybe because of repeated burnouts, I don't know. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Perceiving the aliveness of things is beautiful, though I do personally prefer the modern 118 element model.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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The 5 elements are more like the phases of matter:

earth - solid
water - liquid
air - gas
fire - transition from matter to energy
​​​​​​​space - vacuum (absence of matter)
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Fire is just plasma, not conversion of matter to energy.
Your model is incomplete, it lacks eg. bose-einstein condensate, obvious state of matter or quark-gluon plasma and many many many more states of matter. And then we of course have anti-matter which is kinda like matter but apparently if I had on gram on me then I would have very bad day... or just short day ;) That would be the real conversion of matter to energy emoticon

​​​​​​​BTW. here you have real elements https://ptable.com/?lang=en#Properties
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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I think what George means is you burn something like paper and you end up with less paper and more thermal energy. I think the loss of thermal energy represents an overall mass loss after all ingredients of the combustion (paper + oxygen) are added up.

In some systems wood is an element too. You definitely need the sun for that!

What is anti matter in buddhism ?
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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...talking of physics, and having just sat down to have a look into formless jhanas, when scientists go on about the profound wonder of the infinite immensity of the universe with a kind of religious reverence.... are they getting into formless jhanas ?

There's much made of the hostility between religion and science, and I've spent probably too much time watching videos of atheists and clerics bashing heads in debates, but I can't help feeling that the sense of wonder in science is basically a religious feeling that doesn't really get the appropriate recognition.
My thesis here is that the love of big cosmic numbers, or infinite complexity, evinced by public scientists, is (as well as being an ego trip about showing off the big things you know about) basically a love of jhana.

What do you reckon ?
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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I reckon not.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Agreed, the instinct for exploration and wonder seems to be coming from the same place. Most scientists seem to be rather attached to the idea of being able to know an objective external world, but many of the more theoreticial physicists and mathematicians are basically mystics. Most of them can't admit it in public for various reasons, but they send off signals (e.g. God does not play dice). I first got into a light formless jhana state when I was 5 contemplating the vastness of the universe.

You could make an argument that antimatter is nirvana to matter's samsara. Almost identical in every way, and mutually annihilating emoticon
  
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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"I first got into a light formless jhana state when I was 5 contemplating the vastness of the universe."

Ha, exactly!

Would be interesting to consider if we are born in formless jhana and develop the lower ones as we grow, eventually reaching maximum piti and sukha at puberty ? Sort of... It would help explain why I get that super-sweet, fine, balanced inner bliss, which feels like infancy to me, when I follow Ken and Nick in the below linked video.

And speaking of Einstein - Einstein goes into a reverie about riding on a light beam - comes up (eventually) with the idea of curved space.
Buddhists say examine space as an object, see the reality of it. How come the curvature of space isn't obvious from this ?

ie. after all that study of space, where is relativity in buddhist scripture ?

Except some sort of curvature of the space of consciousness does manifest in contemplative states. Dan describes strange conscious topologies at the edge of the self.

But are any of these the same curvature of space that Einstein arrives at via the mathematical and imaginative road ? Is he drawing on the same mental root but expressed in maths and imagination ? ie. did Einstein find the maths of the formless jhanas ?

Is there something epochal about humanity, via Einstein, actually learning to exploit the curvature of mental space in the physical world. I would be tempted to think that humanity is engaged in gradually bringing contemplative insights into practical engineering.

And where does space curve most, hereabouts ? Round the sun !
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Stickman3
Would be interesting to consider if we are born in formless jhana and develop the lower ones as we grow, eventually reaching maximum piti and sukha at puberty ? Sort of... It would help explain why I get that super-sweet, fine, balanced inner bliss, which feels like infancy to me, when I follow Ken and Nick in the below linked video.
I think your on to something here but I suppose everyone is different and one of those differences is that not everyone reaches maturity at puberty.

Edit. I will light a candle in your honor.
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Thank you Dietrich.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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To deduce that gravity curves space you need to realize that the effects of gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable and that light has a finite speed. These two facts imply that gravity should curve light, since a light beam would appear curved from an accelerating frame of reference. The first fact could have been observed by the Buddha jumping out of a tree and noticing the feeling of weightlessness, but the second fact required the invention of the telescope and accurate clocks (to measure the variation in the timing of the eclipses of Jupiter's moons). He could observe that sound had a finite speed (e.g. by observing thunder and lightening), so maybe he could have guessed that light had finite speed as well, but that would have been a pretty sketchy analogy. Riding on a light beam is about special relativity (time dilation etc.)

But anyway, these are just mental models of what happens at high speeds/energies far outside the normal range of human experience. 5th jhana is about how the mind constructs the ordinary experience of space.

​​​​​​​In terms of our ordinary experience, thermodynamics is much more important than relativity or quantum mechanics. And there the Buddha seems to have had a pretty good intuitive understanding, with his focus on impermanence and the decay of all ordered states …
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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"But anyway, these are just mental models of what happens at high speeds/energies far outside the normal range of human experience. 5th jhana is about how the mind constructs the ordinary experience of space."

That's true, but Einstein was sat down when he came up with all this. Same starting point as any buddhist.  Somehow maths and imagination told him something about the nature of space that wasn't apparent from mere observation.  It's almost like maths comes from a deeper reality.

One way to avoid that conclusion is to note that direct observation of space might include some curvature. Maybe Einstein did in fact note all sorts of warps in space but never thought to tell, because he didn't have a Dharma Overground to go to. If anyone is an Einstein expert please do let us know.

OK Einstein's people had telescopes, but was all that stuff only necessary for testing the hypothesese ?

So what you're saying is that maybe some contemplatives have come up with relativity, but had no way to test it (telescopes etc.).

This has got a bit more complex than I thought, but I'm liking it.

Edit: ah no wait I see what you mean about knowledge of the finite speed of light being prerequisite for Einstein's thought experiments. However in the ancient world there where all sorts of theories of light, any number of which could have been written down, pillaged by barbarians and used for kindling.
Maybe there's a pot buried in the Indian jungle somewhere with a mouldy, rat-gnawed scroll of buddist relativity...

But would they need to know the exact speed, or rather just hold the idea that it was finite - which would obviate the need of telescopes etc. ?
Would you just need a basic idea that light travelled in lines and had finite speed, and fill in the numbers later ?

So the basic questions - did buddhists come up with the idea of curved space(time) - or, more pertinently, observe the reality  ?
If not why not ?
If so then did they formalise it but lack any testing ability ?
Did Einstein formalise something in physics that is actually a property of mind ?

I suppose all this is waiting for some experimentation. Has anyone tried meditating in space ?

The question of out of body travel arises - does a yogi employing such a siddhi experience relativistic effects ?
And did it take humanity thousands of years, via Einstein, to formalise this ?
In which case why didn't Einstein need to travel out of body (let's assume he wasn't an astral traveller), but could just sit in a chair and do it ?

So let's say an astral traveller zooms out to the furthest reaches of the universe, and zooms back again to get into the body in time for breakfast. Are they excluded from time dilation effects by virtue of not being in the physical plane ?

Regarding the thermodynamics - did the buddha have any thoughts as to where the order came from in the first place, or would that be all pointless questions about the arrow of suffering ?

Returning to your question "But anyway, these are just mental models of what happens at high speeds/energies far outside the normal range of human experience. 5th jhana is about how the mind constructs the ordinary experience of space." one of the basic asks is whether this means physical space, mental space or both at once, or there is no difference between personal mental space and objective physical space.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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This has been fun, but I think you will get more out of, you know, sitting down and trying to answer these questions for yourself emoticon
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Can I have a little jhana check, because I'm not expert. If you have a sense of traveling into space, with a panoramic kind of quiet openness, and very little feeling tone (piti etc), and you kind of try and go with it and try and go further, and it keeps kind of resetting as you try and stay with it - is that 5th ?
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J W, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Stickman3
Can I have a little jhana check, because I'm not expert. If you have a sense of traveling into space, with a panoramic kind of quiet openness, and very little feeling tone (piti etc), and you kind of try and go with it and try and go further, and it keeps kind of resetting as you try and stay with it - is that 5th ?
I also am not an expert, likely so?  Maybe someone else has a better answer. 
My advice would be if you can reproduce it and can trace a clear path through J1-4 and into boundlessness, that's a pretty good bet that it is.  In my experience J4 is where there becomes a separation of the watcher and the field of perception, where the field of perception itself can be presented as sort of a boundary or space, a "screen".  Then by investigating the emptiness of that space, or by the 3Cs, the spatial boundaries of perception themselves can sort of dissolve into boundlessness (J5).
Not quite sure what you mean by 'it keeps resetting'. You mean like there is a limit to the boundlessness?
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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"My advice would be if you can reproduce it and can trace a clear path through J1-4 and into boundlessness, that's a pretty good bet that it is. "

Thanks, seems like it, yeah. It's not as wow as I thought from people's descriptions, but you have hard jhana and soft jhana here don't you, and people get confused about whether they've visited a jhana because of the ultra high criteria in some scripture, and I visit these things fairly briefly I'm not devoting great time to it at the mo. So I maybe wasn't recognising it from the variety of written descriptions. OK that's good.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 5878 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Stickman3:

Can I have a little jhana check, because I'm not expert. If you have a sense of traveling into space, with a panoramic kind of quiet openness, and very little feeling tone (piti etc), and you kind of try and go with it and try and go further, and it keeps kind of resetting as you try and stay with it - is that 5th ?


Hard to tell with so little context. It’s good to remember that there are many kinds of absorptions outside the Theravadan Jhanic arc. There are lot of nondual absorptions that are spacey.
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J W, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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are they getting into formless jhanas ?

I'd think it's tangential. Jhana is as much one-pointedness and absorption as anything.  If we're talking about applying it outside of Buddhism I tend to think of mind states achieved through physical exercise or artistic creation (flow state) moreso than formlessness.  Though yes, the sense of wonder (rapture?) and inquisitiveness, there may be some parallels, could perhaps lead into insight into vastness/depedent origination etc, so who knows!  

( edit: of course... I am making the assumption here that you are talking about non-Buddhist scientists emoticon )
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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So the basic questions - did buddhists come up with the idea of curved space(time) - or, more pertinently, observe the reality  ?
If not why not ?
If so then did they formalise it but lack any testing ability ?
Did Einstein formalise something in physics that is actually a property of mind ?

I suppose all this is waiting for some experimentation. Has anyone tried meditating in space ?

The question of out of body travel arises - does a yogi employing such a siddhi experience relativistic effects ?
And did it take humanity thousands of years, via Einstein, to formalise this ?
In which case why didn't Einstein need to travel out of body (let's assume he wasn't an astral traveller), but could just sit in a chair and do it ?

So let's say an astral traveller zooms out to the furthest reaches of the universe, and zooms back again to get into the body in time for breakfast. Are they excluded from time dilation effects by virtue of not being in the physical plane ?

Regarding the thermodynamics - did the buddha have any thoughts as to where the order came from in the first place, or would that be all pointless questions about the arrow of suffering ?

Let's say someone on a message board devoted to meditation practice wanted to experiment on how to mess with the other members there. How many of the members can be dragged into pointless conversations generated by childish questions about scienc-y, buddhist-y sounding nonsense? How might that person accomplish that goal?

Maybe this topic is that experiment. 
Stickman3, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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No I don't think it's childish, and I don't think I'm ruining anyone's path.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Of course you're not ruining anyone's path.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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So let's say an astral traveller zooms out to the furthest reaches of the universe, and zooms back again to get into the body in time for breakfast. Are they excluded from time dilation effects by virtue of not being in the physical plane ?
I kind of agree w/ chris marti here, i think the questions (now far removed from anything to do w/ buddist myths about the sun) are a bit childish in that they have not been thought through. From the example above, there's no answer except idle speculation, akin to how many arhats can dance on the head of a pin.   Relativity is a theory that has no relationship to astral or other speculative 'planes'.  A more likely answer would be 'they imagined it'.

And as for 'Einstein was sitting down when he though of relativity, just like buddhists', that really makes you wonder doesn't it?

Since a lot of mention has been made of relativity here's some resources for those interested, you could try asking questions there, where people will know more about the subject:  (i just searched for 'physics forum')

https://www.thephysicsforum.com/special-general-relativity/

top 10 physics forums:
https://blog.feedspot.com/physics_forums/
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J W, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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I guess I sort of interpreted this as, this is someone who is new to Buddhism and has some scepticism which is being shown in the form of some snarky questions, but at the same time seems to have a genuine interest and does have a practice and perhaps even some attainments.  I personally would be interested to hear more about Stickman's actual practice (though of course there is no requirement for that to utlize this forum). This thread didn't bother me personally but it might make more sense as part of Stickman's practice log with some such questions posed in that thread if its necessary .. ? 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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How hard is it to avoid engaging with a thread if one finds it pointless and childish? Apparently harder than numerous attainments. I'm not going to moderate a thread for being childish. On the other hand I'm not going to moderate people's comments about it being childish either. If you guys want to spend your time and energy debating whether or not a thread is childish, that's your choice as consenting adults. I'm not running a daycare center for grownups. I'm off to do my practice. 
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Is your comment aimed at me directly? Please advise.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Not just you. I saw three people debate whether or not it's childish. And since you asked me to moderate if needed, I tried to be clear about my approach to moderating and how I assess whether there's a need. I assess that there's no need. Sorry for being unclear.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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I agree - no moderation was necessary. All three people who said something about this topic's recent content had a relevant point to make. 
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 277 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Is mindfulness of silliness possible?  I'll cheer you on, RA, RA, RA!
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Are you cheering the mindful part, or the silly part?  emoticon
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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Let me see what the theory of relativity says. I'll get back to you.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 2119 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Can we ban Chris Marti? 



​​​​​​​emoticon 
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J W, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 510 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Never!! 
​​​​​​​emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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I won't be part of mutiny. emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 2119 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
We can take him out tonight while he's asleep!

​​​​​​​emoticon 
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

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This guy is pretty pissed off about the whole discussion. He can help.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: What does buddhism say about the sun ?

Posts: 84 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
some nice tunes on here:

http://www.sunraarkestra.com/1-main.html

maybe they can have a soothing effect?
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