Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Staring a fresh log. 

Just walked for 45 minutes. These practices seem to be happening on their own. No one there doing the practice. Tonglen would arise perfectly on its own, Mahamudra would arise perfectly on its own. "Look how it's" also arises on its own. 

There is no need to fret or worry about which practice to do as these too arise on their own and vanish too. It kind of goes in circles. 

It really is about just trusting this process unfold. No clinging needed. Clinging indeed just leads to struggle. 

Just asking "what is going on right now?" curiously accepting Thisness as it may be, is enough, then just observe. 

At some stage these "yogi tools" will do themselves if "I" get out of the way. 

I might be wrong though emoticon 

May all being be free from suffering, may all beings awake, may all beings be happy. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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One important note; 

Minimum 45 minutes required it seems for insights to ripen. I'm observing lately and each insight took place in the late 40 minutes of the meditation walk. Those last few minutes is a Dharmic gold mine. 

Don't give up folks until that 45 minutes alarm kicks in. (Sure do longer sits if you do feel). 

​​​​​​​Best wishes! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Another update; 

Yesterday got a very strong craving for nicotine. To the point of considering to get into the car and buy some. I didn't. (Btw, stopped with nicotine in February this year)

However I am seeing this craving coming back every so often so wonder if it's part of some cycling. Ingram's words "wait it out" came to mind and so I did. Today there is no craving. So far. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Today woke up with agitation. Overwhelmed in the sense door of hearing. Hard to focus on anything, stuff just keeps dissolving. 

Stiff neck and shoulder blade. But not agonizing. 

45 minutes walking. Tried Listening Mahamudra but it ain't happening. "Look how its" was the main practice and so was Tonglen. 

I find it hard to remain cool in such mind stage with my son and my partner. There is always something going on with a 5 year old kid and often he just does the opposite of what we ask of him. Then my partner might have opposing view to mine and here we get two parents with opposing parenting approaches. These can collide. 

And here it's evident of me wanting to use Noting as an escape route. I now desire to go and Vipassanaise all these unpleasant experiences. 
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Some sort of "belief" investigation might be helpful, too. Stress can also come from conflicting beliefs. (You could even say stress dependently arises from two conflicting beliefs.) A lot of the time, we have criteria for how a situation should be even though we are actively experiencing it to be different.

Often there are deeper beliefs about ourself (good or bad), which fight with the current situation (bad or good). Like "I'm a good parent" and "My kid is out of control". Those kinds of surface and deep belief stresses.
It can be helpful to look for those things, because those are the things that are really effective at tripping us up.

Truth is reality has a lot more gray areas. Black and white beliefs often are momentary helpful but hurtful in the long term. It's good to have gentle beliefs about self, others, and life...

But the main reason I mention this is that there are also core wounds that become more and more alive as we clean up our psyche --- very very basic motivations along the lines of "I can't do X, I must do Y (or it feels like I'll die)" that are driven by some very illogical patterns formed at a very early stage. These can be teased out in the last 10 minutes of practice when things get challenging. Really let the challenge happen and look at it. "What seems to be causing this stress when all I'm doing is walking/sitting? Why do I fight with this situation? What seems like it needs to be done instead of this practice? What compulsions am I feeling?"

Hope this helps in some way.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Thanks shargrol! Will look into those as they present themselves. Or will do my best at least emoticon 
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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It seems I have also been doing Tonglen. How about the phrase? What is in it for me doesn't work. I have heard this somewhere before.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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It's in my old log 2nd post 
​​​​​​​https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/22799413
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I haven't read your earlier stuff or WUTYL. In what context are using the term "mahamudra"?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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As thought by Kenneth Folk. "Listening" to that which can not be heard. I think he teaches it as part of his 3rd Gear. 

Im intending to "listen" to the storms of Jupiter. Of course I can not hear them. However I can "turn towards", listening, that gesture in itself is as close as we get to what mind is (according to the wise) emoticon 

Other stuff (meaning not the storms of Jupiter) is swirling in awareness. But those are not the storms of Jupiter hence let go off and return to "listening" .. ... 

I do not follow WUTYL. I do pick up on shargrols suggestions (only the ones which make sense right now). 
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Papa Che Dusko
As thought by Kenneth Folk. "Listening" to that which can not be heard. I think he teaches it as part of his 3rd Gear. 

Hmm, can you say more? Mahamudra is a high forrm of Tibean Buddshism similar to Dzogchen that I have studies and its big categorization seems to non-meditation and non-distration, resting in the natural state.
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I went to the zoo today with the intention of hearing bats. I didn't hear any bat squeaks (too high) but I did see a rare white bat!
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Also, I want to say that I am proud of our dharmaoverground meditators who are branching out into more open ended teachings (or at least that is how I envison them currently). Papa Che is leading the way!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I'm also proud of our practitioners who managed to see the rare white bat emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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This is not the Tibetan High Teaching Sam emoticon 

Kenneth Folk has his own take on Mahamudra. I did explain it the above post. 

Even the Tonglen is not practiced by me as Tibetans do but rather as shargrol suggested. 

In case others wonder let me state ;
I DO NOT PRACTICE THE HIGH TEACHING OF TIBETAN BUDDHISM emoticon instead I practice some watered down version of it by Kenneth Folk. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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The general feel is Unpleasant and there is some agony and misery present. Also hard to focus and all is a bit like being just off a rolercoaster, stuff is "swirling".

Yesterday and today the practice increased to 2 x 45 min walking meditation. Today was trying to see if Mahamudra was possible in DN flawored mind stage which is dissolving and hard to follow, all just slips away. DN seems contracted as there is this unpleasant suffering aspect to it.

This "turning towards" gesture-mahamudra was kind of possible, or maybe absolutely possible;
When there is this "turning towards" (that which cant be seen) then there is this something I can not put my finger on. Its as a "blind spot" or maybe it what you fine folks call emptiness. Even in this "turning towards listening" (to that which cant be heard) there is "other" stuff there arise-passing without anything or anybody being involved in it. Stuff just freely flows. However that "turning towards" "space" can not be said to be a space because there is no knowing in that "turning towards" gesture. One can not say "this is a mind state or stage" as there is no knowing what it was and certainly "I" is not in "it". Is this that "other Nirvana" you talked about shargrol? 

However its not easy to sustain it as attention does fall/cling to the objects/beliefs/stories.

Practice fluctuates from Look How Its, to plain Noting, to Tonglen as well as Listening Mahamudra (a la Kenneth Folk). If I sense effort to decide what to practice I try to let go of it (drop the ball) and just wait what practice arises naturally.

A few times mind would totally get lost in narrative and I would ask "what can be more important than this practice?" ... got some sense of lack of being recognized and some loss in my childhood sadness flavours. 

Thats it for now. Will continue with same practice/s and see what comes up.
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Papa, sorry to interrupt, can you please stop by my log? I need your advice,
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Just a quick log; 

Today felt again inspired by Dukkha. 2x45 minutes walking meditation. Hard to do Look How It's. As soon I start "look how ..." the whole intent and focus slips away. Dissolution is strong. 

Also had a sudden surge of fear when I heard some swoosh sound in the forest (just a wind). 

Misery is evident and so is overwhelm in the hearing. Tend to desire quiet and solitude. 

Practiced mostly Listening Mahamudra in the midst of this DN stage. Also Tonglen a few times. 

Asked a few times "why getting lost in scenario narrative? Why is this practice not good enough to remain with it?" 
Mind would drop into some "knowing better" scenario (Asura Realm). 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Certainly in some dumb faze right now. Seems like the Void Element. Attetion is flip flopping from one thing to another in hope to be solid I guess, to have a meaning but the focus is not really there to support any of these.
Even looking at the computer screen is hard! Eyes focus on it and the next moment the focus goes through the screen into a slight blur (as if its refusing to focus on the screen or anything really).

Im not sure if practice will be possible in this state? But this might be the practice; why do I think I need a different mind state/stage to be able to practice? Why is THIS (dumb) stage not good enough? 

If Mahamudra is to mean anything then Maha-better-mudra in this dumb state also, otherwise if it only Mudra in A&P and EQ then it can go Fukha-mudra itself out me sight as Im sick and tired of stuff thats dependent on something else! (maybe all is and Im simply fucked).

Im in a funky mood right now ... sorry. (kind of still hoping that Practice will be my salvation, so I can get into the full on love-doing-this-practice mode, but seems like "practice" will not save "me")

... there is aversion towards the idea to go out and do the walking meditation today ...
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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45 minutes walking meditation. My focus and memory is rather sluggish so I will just throw it out in here;

There was resistance to Tonglen. Resistance to taking into me someone's experience. I mentioned before that I always get two persons meditating as the beings in Tonglen and they are male and shaved heads. 

This time they turned into my mother and father. I felt resistance to experience suffering in their stead. They abandoned me. 
Then I've had the image of my partner and our eldest son. Each time they refuse my view or fight against or do opposing to what I ask of them, I react as if they are turning their back on me! Abandoning me! Just like my parents did in my childhood. 

The focus is very floaty, not able to settle on any object. It's just plain unpleasant. Also body stiffness, and agony associated with it. Irritation and anxiety.
Not able to do Look How It's and Mahamudra was very slippery. All is just swirling out of control. 

Will go for another walk meditation.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Went for another 45er walking. 

The mind certainly is creating stories to find a familiar ground. There would come up verbal fights about views with other people I know. There was resistance to just remain in that dumb, hard to focus swirling mind state. 
Towards the end mind even tried to run a sexual lust scenario.

During Mahamudra the mind was a bit more receptive of all the swirling stuff. A bit more clarity in this wobbly terrain. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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So much desire to go to the shop and get tobacco and Booz to numb down this miserable agony. 

But I've been down that road so many times and it just doesn't offer lasting happiness. 

Instead I'm off into the forest for another 45 min walking meditation ... ...
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Papa Che Dusko
So much desire to go to the shop and get tobacco and Booz to numb down this miserable agony. 

But I've been down that road so many times and it just doesn't offer lasting happiness. 

Instead I'm off into the forest for another 45 min walking meditation ... ...

Look at the progress! You didn't go into the shop and get tobacco and booz and numb out. Instead you went into the forest and faced your "Miserable agony". I'll echo what Linda said "Shifting to a more Tibetanish practice seems to work well for you,"
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Its good if we can "wait it out" emoticon the urge is not ever lasting thankfully emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Just did a 45 minutes walking meditation. Mixture of Noting, Mahamudra and Tonglen. 

At one stage it started raining and then there was one lightning and thunder. Got worried and started running towards the house. Then just stopped and decided to do Tonglen instead. Fear of being hit by lightning! Did that as it presented itself rather strongly. Why would that fear be more important than this practice? 
After the alarm went off at 45 minutes I decided to log it now. am off to make dinner now. 

​​​​​​​May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Glad to see how things are developing for you! Your authenticity is inspiring. Shifting to a more Tibetanish practice seems to work well for you, more seamless than it has been for me. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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emoticon I will say thank you but I fail to see anything inspiring in my practice emoticon I feel like a total noob with all these rather new practice/approaches emoticon Feels like having two left legs and two right arms. It's like me playing guitar right handed all my life and now learning how to play it left handed emoticon It's like, I know the chord shapes but my hand feels utter beginner and fails to even play the easiest of chords emoticon 


Log;
did one 45er walking session then managed to finish up demolishing of a concrete floor which took a few days. Now my neck , back, arms and legs are very stiff. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Ha, that's a good analogy for that shift! Although I think it's also a different tune although part of the same composition. Like changing from flute to trombone in an orchestra. The notes are different because the instruments are tuned in different keys, and the ways to play the note differ too, and in addition, the instruments play different tunes - but they are in harmony with each other and contribute to a joint end result. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Yes emoticon  and on top of it all, if you do look at the note sheet to find help, the notes are written with gibberish alien symbols! emoticon
​​​​​​​Guess we gotta improvise on the spot! Dhamma-Jazz style! 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Haha, yeah.

...which reminds me... I do wish to do that band thing. I guess it's a bit sad to do it without Tim. I would like him to be in the loop, and right now he can't. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Not sure I even remember what that song idea was ... emoticon matters little! When stuff is ready to arise it will or not! Trust the process! emoticon 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Will do. emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Off cushion agitation, unpleasant skin (insect) crawling sensations, stiff right side of the neck. Did 2x45 min of walking meditation. The practice was arising on its own. There was Noting, Tonglen (stiff neck pain and agony as subject), Listening Mahamudra, and also "There is ..." practice. Got to notice that "there is ..." and Listening Mahamudra have same flavour in that Gesture attitude and turning towards "something".

"There is..." practice lands hard on an object once contacted while Listening Mahamudra is not touching much the passing obects but rather glossing over them as part of the "clouds passing throught the vast clear sky". But the initial gesture of "turning towards" is very much the same.

"Look how its ..." practice seem a bit different , somehow more contracted in its initial focus, as if there might be an idea there of what will be contaced. It maybe feels more "subjective" more "familiar", more like hunting it down, more like "right here" as in distance.

All these are good practices , no doubt, as they contact certain aspect of this consious unfolding.

Not sure if I can tell anything specific about the paractice today other than it was a mixed bag of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feels, spinning scenarions, past memories, very spacey, swirling image space.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Just did a 45er walking meditation. 

Boy oh boy! Scenario spinning was non stop. The focus was very blurred in a way. The sensation of feet touching the ground, walking, seeing and smell of thee red forest after rain, air plain and bird sounds were all entwined with the scenario spins which had nothing to do with each other. They were happening simultaneously and kind of rolling over it ach other. 

Generally very unpleasant feeling tone. Sense of sadness, loss, inadequacy, confused, uncertain. 
All this can be sensed in upper belly and solar plexsus as unpleasant sensation (knot). Also tearing sensation around the eyes. 

Images from my fathers funeral came about. This was in 2015. Him on the night before he passed the following morning. 

Did Tonglen but mind would slip away into other secario spins. 

Neck very stiff but would dissolve once in Tonglen. Would come back as soon I left Tonglen or mind slips into scenario spin. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Off cushion lots of irritation. Also insect-like sensations on the skin, very irritating, as if small spiders and ants are walking all over it with a few sharp bites. Mostly head, ears, face and neck, as well as arms.

There is aslo resistance to the idea to do sitting practice (maybe time to start sitting again and see whats in it) Also seem to have some "blanking out" since that day Listening Mahamudra was flowing rather well. Almost no focus, or maybe dumb focus, not sure how to describe it. As if mind doesnt want to be in that mahamudra state. Walking practice is still the prefered one but even this one is not having that specialness about it any longer. 

Could be just a phaze. Wait it out and see what comes next. Not sure I have a strong intent for my practice right now??? Why do I do this again??? To get free tickets for the 6 Realms Festival?

As soon I grab my guitar and plug into the amp I can instantly relax in case there is anxiety. Maybe Rock'n'Roll is the true way to happiness?! emoticon
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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&gt;Maybe Rock'n'Roll is the true way to happiness?!&nbsp;<br />I thought Rock'n'Roll was the Highway to Hell (AC/DC) heh!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Walked a 45er. 

Resistance to Tonglen. Resistance to taking on the suffering of others. Sense of being sick and tired of this suffering I feel. Desire for it to go away. Insect crawling disgusting skin sensations. Misery and sense of loss. Avoidance of the gesture of listening to, in Mahamudra. 

Mind seems slipping into familiar ground all the time. Going back to Noting, with memories of the old practice. Going back to calm abiding with memories of the old practice. 

The forest path I walk through seems to be loosing specialness about it. It lacks that sense of novelty. 

All objects are the same old same old. Experienced so many fucking times! 
Even these practices are disgusting in a way. 

Towards the end of practice it came to me that I can't do anything other but just "listening" to whatever is occurring. I think im
done with "doing". Any doing just brings suffering. 

General feeling tone is unpleasant. Some pressure on the right side of head from above the eye to the crown chakra part. Dull and dumb. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Did another 45er walking. 

A bit spaceous and hard to focus on writing this update;

This time only Listening Mahamudra. 
At one stage I started noting "familiar ground". The way mind slips into that which it knows. It feels at home so to speak, hence certain. Even pain and suffering is familiar ground. 

This is very similar to the 6 Realms Model! Instead of trying to figure out which realm it is, I only recognize that mind has slipped away from "listening Mahamudra" into a "familiar ground (Realms)". 

I do not fret about sensations of feet stomping the ground while listening Mahamudra. Or hearing, or sensing on skin. 

Im more after urges, pains, fears, certainties, enjoyment, scenario spins ... 

Will see how this kind of practice goes. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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45 minutes walking meditation.

Intent was to do Listening Mahamudra with noticing mind slipping into "familiar ground" but guess what?! emoticon It didn't go my way emoticon The practice went into Tonglen after only a few minutes and remained in Tonglen to the very end.

Interesting how mind kept often slipping into scenario spins, not really willing to stay in open awareness. Since this was overwhelming in a way I imagined taking this experience from other beings so they can be relieved from it, so they can easy awaken to their true nature.

I kept sending them all the mindful moments I've experienced and I would take their overwhelming scenario spins. Of course once wanting to experience the lost in La-la thinking it would not happen, but eventually it did. So I would get lost in it and realise that I was lost and say "thank you experience for allowing me to experience this in their stead so they can be at ease".

p.s. should paint old windows on our house but feel resitsance to do it ... maybe Im to paint them with Tonglen?
Sam Gentile, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Tonglen is hard. I have done a fair amount of it in my Tibetan studies and it takes a ot out of me. I always fel afraid taking in all the bad because I feared I woulddo the technique wrong and the bad stuff would stay with me. I learned to trust that the exhaling good was good.

Interesting how mind kept often slipping into scenario spins, not really willing to stay in open awareness. Since this was overwhelming in a way I imagined taking this experience from other beings so they can be relieved from it, so they can easy awaken to their true nature.
This is excelent work.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Good man Sam emoticon yes indeed one can observe that aversion arise when taking others suffering. 

It's another thing to observe. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Today painting old windows with Tonglen. Already looking much better. They need another layer. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I will add something to the log just in case it happens again. 

Yesterday while painting the windows the seeing was focusing on the hand moving the brush and the hand was carefully following strict line not to mess up parts of the windows which need no paint. 

At one stage there was a ... hm ? ... the sense of hand and eyes/seeing controlling was gone. Hard to explain this but it felt a bit like being lost or maybe felt like the whole experience was just doing itself without anybody controlling it. This was experiential and not some wishful thinking. 

Felt uncomfortable with this and tried to shake my head a bit to regain that usual sense of control (eyes seeing over here and hand with brush controlled over there) but this happened again a few times. 

Just logging it here but maybe I was just exhausted from working all day. 
george, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Hey Papa. This happens with me when I work too. As soon as I try to notice or bring it on though it doesn't happen. Don't know what it is, but I feel very refreshed after and joyful. 
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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sounds like it could be nondual perception, reaction can range from disconcerting to blissful
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Whatever it was im
not sure how "freeing" THAT perception was really emoticon 

Felt like "just That hand brushing" and "just That seeing". And I mean it; as if there was Nothing other there but That. 
george, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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If you really let it, you can disappear. The problem is that you can't be "aware that something is happening" you're just lulled into disappearing. When you come back you have a bounce to how you feel. Childlike joy. That is after the disappearing.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Hm ... emoticon not sure that be true for what this expereince was. There was very much awake awareness of this hand movement doing itself, refering back to no one. Also felt rather ... 2D maybe? A bit fluid ... maybe dream like but rather very much complete. Nothing to add nothing to take away. Perfect ... however "I" felt it being disorientating hence trying to regain the sense of control, which is "proper" distance from my eyes seeing over here that hand painting over there. BTW, there was no sense of distance in That experience. 

Eventhough the hand was moving and painting with the brush without control it did it well.

I will report more if this happens again.

Lets just say that now I do understand a little bit better Ingram's take on This Is It (from his recent thread) ... but lets not jump to conclusions too soon. Back to practice!
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Papa Che Dusko
however "I" felt it being disorientating hence trying to regain the sense of control

"just That I-ing", referring back to no one, no real control or distance from anything emoticon​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Yes, After That moment there was a bit unpleasant panic-like knee jerk reaction to "know" where what should be (me here, that hand over there). I-ing was that knee-jerk response towards pulling back towards the familiar ground.

But I might have as well just been tierd from work and all this meant nothing. So lets not get carried away emoticon 
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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It's an unknowing, it definitely doesn't mean anything emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

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I have no idea what you are saying. 

However I will say it again emoticon Let's not jump to conclusions. If it happens again I will try not to panic but rather feel into it and see what's up. 

​​​​​​​Back to painting the windows! 
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I was referring to the fact that the mind knows on some level "this" is the way things really are, but it finds it threatening so it retreats to "meaning" or "knowing" as a way of avoiding it. Anway, feeling into it (even the panic) is a good way to go.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Did yesterday a 45er walking meditation. 

started with noting but soon went into Listening Mahamudra. Scenario spinning many times. 
Playing with recognizing ill will towards scenario spins once I recognize them. Also with narrow and wide space in scenario spins vs Mahamudra spaceousness. Are they separate in space or not. 

At one stage the image on Demon-me appeared in image space. Same as before laughing with a crazy smile and crazy eyes. 
I asked what is of best benefit for this demon and all other beings. Tonglen came to mind. After a while Demon-me closed its eyes and mouth and was calmly and mindfully following the breathing pattern. I asked to experience in his stead his overwhelming experience beforehand but only got sadness.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Just finished a 45er walking meditation.

Before each session I always state something like "I will now practice to the best of my ability, for x-minutes, for the sake of attaining to full awakening as fast as humanly possible for the benefit of myself and all other beings. May I practice that method which is of most benefit to all beings"

Then I just feel into it ... and this time "Look how its ..." started and went on for a few minutes and then to my surprise full on noting aloud 3-5 sensations per second unfolded. There were thoughts of doubt as if this practice was really necessery right now, but even that was just noted. Then felt gladness from easily observing the flowing mind stream and there I felt a little ill will towards feeling this gladness! I have noticed this in my psichology, were I dont really allow myself to just feel happy, glad, joful. Its as if I do so some calamity might fall upon me or something like that. Anyway, this ill will was noted and the whole session went on with fast noting aloud while walking.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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That whole jinx storytelling is a tough nut to crack. I suspect it's related to surviver's guilt. Noticing how those reactional chains manifest, as you are doing, seems to be an important step in the healing. I believe you are healing. Sometimes it might even feel like it's getting worse before it cracks. Also, there may be messy entanglements, so lots of different links may need to crack. I think you are doing well. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Thanks Linda!

Im not sure whats really goign on in my practice. It is very strange. It really seems more about the mind relation to each mentioned practice method and what mind does with it, rather than objects within the practice itself which feel very much like "familiar gorund" somehow. 

One thing is sure emoticon I will not get worse by doing these practices and observing how mind treats each and every one of these practices as they arise and pass away. 

I do hope its healing. At the moment it feels like my IQ have dropped bellow 70! I think the mind is ignoring stuff by falling into some numbness or blanking out.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Maybe you have shifted figure and ground from focusing on phenomena as they occur to focusing on how the mind is approaching phenomena. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I have no idea emoticon all this is new to me.

Im kind of placing faith in shargrol suggesting Tonglen and Look How Its ... as good practice for me. I added Kenneths "Listening Mahamudra" but it seems to me that these cycle around and as soon I think "Oh, this particular practice/method today went well, I will do it again tomorrow!" emoticon Ops! Nope! Doesnt happen as the practice method arises on its own and can shift from one to the other (and this aint happening due to restlesness or doubt but really on its own). If Im to force a method I believe is of benefit I usually get into a stressful feel. So I go with the practice that arises on its own  and watch what mind does with it. Even this can be unpleasant or else but its more curious to watch this process. And practice does happen with arising objects also. Im seeing mind blanks out and slips into a secenario when something heavy is presenting itself, as a defense mechanism maybe. Ignorance? And it doesnt have to be emotionaly heavy but only opening up in Mahamudra can cause it to slip away into a familiar ground. Fear? Ignorance?


I dont know. Will see how stuff goes and report in this log as it wiggles.
​​​​​​​Trust the process?
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Yes, trust the process. I think you are in a very meandering territory and need to shift perspectives back and forth to sort of triangulate, and you seem to be in tune with that need. It can be so very confusing in phases like this, gosh. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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May Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta lead the way!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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The mind is after exciting experiences for a while now. It seems to blank out from that mahamudra openess for some reason. Cant see why except fear of letting go of the sense of control. When I talk about Mahamudra I do not talk about "resting or calm abiding" but rather that gesture point of "turning towards" something I will not see or hear. It has no calm in it or maybe it does ... there is no way of knowing it, hence I think mind blanks out into dumbness and numbness , ... for me likely slides into 3rd Jhanic states/DN Nana's ... something like it.

So today I tried to feel into that Mahamudra while in 3rd Jhana/DN flavour of experience and it seems that it is possible to mahamudra "into" it but its not the same as mahamudra into a more focused state/stage where Mahamudra move is "explosive" and central and this Mahamudra listening gesture is going outwardly. In DN/3rdJhana flavored experience it gets wobbly and sea-sick because it cant do the same eventhough "I" felt it can and "should" do that way.

So I felt into it and Mahamudra gesture seems to "imlpode" into the missing center as into a black hole, and here it gets a bit freaky and mind seems to retract from it. In this case I would get flashes of music gear , my guitars and I felt urge to grab it play it, and to research on the net about other interesting gear. 

Ok. Its ok. I was maybe gong too hard into all this and forgetting to just do some intersting stuff and enjoy it. Its ok. Im today totally going into listening to My Sleeping Karma (prog band) and researching interesting gear and even considering to but a new cheapo pedal and look forward to seeing the postman on my door next week emoticon 

p.s. im not checking this posts for typos or clarity ... let them be ...
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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You are not alone in this. It seems to be very common. I did practices like that regularly for a long time before even getting a feel for what was supposed to happen. When I grasped that, I realized that it was something that I was already familiar with from other contexts. I just hadn't understood what it was. For me, things have often happened off the cushion, and when I have been curious about it and searched for information, I have found teachings that point to it, and those new pointers have made me understand pointers that I had already received that were phrased differently. 

What I'm trying to say is something like this: Don't worry, you are probably learning more from this than it might feel like, and eventually it will fall into place.

And yeah, do enjoy life when possible! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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"Don't worry, you are probably learning more from this than it might feel like, and eventually ... " ... you die emoticon emoticon Ha!

I think Im cooling down somewhat ... things that seemed to think "oh I got this shit, I did it before I can do it again!" is now feeling like a total noob but humbeled one. Hence me not really having much to say anymore on DhO, which should feel like "thanks god" to some emoticon You welcome!

This journey might take life times, "so take the back seat and enjoy the ride sweetheart " emoticon 

​​​​​​​Thank you emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Today practiced 60min walking , mixture between Tonglen, Look How Its, Noting, Listening ...

At one stage there was this walking and kind of bouncing from left to right foot and the image space would also bounce , rock from one side to the next and there was motion sikness there, a bit unpleasant.
I could sense two pressure points under the skull on top of head. One on the right side the other on left side both very close to the center line that separates the two side. This felt rather solid and was the source of feeling motion sickness (had no nausea but all mental). Then while focusing on these two solid pressure points, attention discovered a long lost friend; the Nada Sound! Once attention was in Nada sound the motion sikness was gone and the preassure points would reduce and even go away.

Just realised that I havent experienced clear high pitch Nada sound for a long while now. felt like "familiar ground" and there was gladness about it.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Since I've stopped with nicotine in February this year I have been upping my coffee intake a lot (with sugar and milk)! I think I drink around 8-10 cups a day. The worst is I started drinking coffee after the dinner. I never did this in the past unless I was on some dinner party and I felt like coffee after all those drinks.

Any who.

Time to do something about it as I feel rather hyper and heavy from all that coffeine I guess.
Just bought 1kg of Gun Powder (green tea) and will use that mostly. Coffee in the morning and maybe one later on and the rest is plain water and gun powder green tea (no sugar, no milk).

​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Today 45er walking.  Tonglen with the experience of aversion towards other people and being protective towards one's own practice, as if its a sacred thing of sorts.
The other practice that took place was Kennet Folk's "Am I mindful right now? I dont know, let me check ... ". The mind was very quickly slipping into scenario spins and I would ask "why is this practice not good enough?" and then would restart by asking Am I Mindful right now? ... Dont know let me check ... and then contacting objects as they arise and pass. 

At some stage it was clear to me that mind keeps looking away from That which might be the end of the sense of self, and would rather go and talk about guitar gear. The more I looked into this the more it was in fear of "touching" That where sense of self might be no more emoticon It felt very sad and afraid that it will never exist anymore emoticon I can understand this. We usually live so to avoid danger and not get killed. We seem to want to carry on as long as possible. To survive I guess. 
If "I" go away who will witness my life? There will be no "me" there! emoticon 

So, yes, some ignorance is taking place in form of fear, as in "do not look there (Mahamudra maybe)" and maybe lets talk about music gear and even get annoyed with other people instead? (Mara talking).

Thats it for now. 

BTW, the Gun Powder tea is great! 
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Good stuff.

What ultimately goes away with enlightenment... is something that wasn't there in the first place.

I don't know if you have read this: https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#holdinghand  but this metaphor really helped me when I was going through the phases of opening up and feeling the pains of my sense-of-self becoming smaller.

Best wishes!!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Just read it. Thank you shargrol!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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There is a sense that my walking practice is falling apart or rather "degrading" in "quality". Sense of such "weak" practice not being good enough and that I should be finding a better practice that fixes this issue. There are ideas of me starting a sitting meditation and do more tranquility practice, become better at jhana and focus. There are ideas of me starting a sitting practice of noting to dismantle this unpleasantness of this meditation degarding and feeling unpleasant.

Then question came about "if this is not (proper) practice then what is it!???" 

What is it? I dont know, let me check ... confusion, self-judgement, incompetence, self-pitty, sorrow, innability to gain sharp focus, no control over incomming scenario spins, being swept by them easily, being a lousy yogi ... 

​​​​​​​
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I suggest you feel the wind blowing through the trees. It knows no boundaries.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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It doesnt last. You might as well say "feel the fart blowing through the hemerrhoids" but it doesnt last. It aint permanent. 

Its more like "Who knows the wind blowing through the trees? Who knows that it knows no boundries?"

Who? ... ? ... listening ... listening ...
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Who? Just asking ... listening ... walking ... seeing ... tasting ... smelling ... feeling ... thinking ... nothing more (or less) than that emoticon​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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You forgot the pop-corn! ;P
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Mmm ... pop-corn pop-corning ... forgot that one emoticon​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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You also forgot to wash that dirty pot you used for pop-corning! Chop wood, carry water ... wash dirty dishes emoticon 
And while you at it bring the trash on your way out emoticon xxx
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2020 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I enjoy emptying the trash just for a bit of peace and quiet emoticon​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I enjoy playing me guitar and me amp cranked to 10 just for a bit of peace and quiet emoticon
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Seng-ts’an, Hsin-Hsin Ming

Consider the movement in stillness and the stationary in motion, both movement and rest disappear. When such dualities cease to exist even Oneness itself cannot exist.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Oh shit! Quotes! I give up emoticon you win! 
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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George S
Seng-ts’an, Hsin-Hsin Ming

Consider the movement in stillness and the stationary in motion, both movement and rest disappear. When such dualities cease to exist even Oneness itself cannot exist.


How about what Master Linji says:
​​​​​​​“If you love the sacred and despise the ordinary, you are still bobbing in the sea of delusion.”
― Línjì Yìxuán
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Ha! emoticon How about, what Mary fucking Poppins says!? LOL emoticon 

I think something's wrong with my log over here! Some kind of viruses attacking it emoticon Anti-virus program needed! 

Maybe this means Im to take a break, step back and look at the whole picture and see what the heck is going on. 

​​​​​​​Che out!
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Linji, nuff said emoticon
​​​​​​​
​​​​​​​I tell you, there's no Buddha, no Dharma, no practice, no enlightenment. Yet you go off like this on side roads, trying to find something. Blind fools! Will you put another head on top of the one you have? What is it you lack?
...
You who come from here and there, you all have a mind to do something. You search for Buddha, search for the Dharma, search for emancipation, search for a way to get out of the threefold world. Idiots, trying to get out of the threefold world! Where will you go?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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shargrol my man, if you are around I would be greatful to hear your input (if not I will try and PM you on Awakened Network instead as this forum has no Private Messagaing it seems)

I can notice increase in daily agitation with family and overall sensitivity, in the hearing especially. The walking practice is gone shitstorm and honestly feels like I never meditated in my life! Scenario spins are usually on the anger side today and even images of fist fight with a certain person ... crazy shit! Doing Tonglen seems like doing it through some cloud of sorts, as if even that tonglen is in some dream state as is all this scenario shitstorm.

Im considering to start sitting meditation again. Noting. I mean all this mental stuff is rather solid feeling and is rocking the boat in daily life with my family.

I have mentioned this before; It seems I have developed resistance to sitting practice, to jhana absorptions that is. I dont mind sitting and noting but dislike when jhanas start developing and introduce that tranquility that gives the fucking sense of hangover afterwards. 

Wonder what to do with this? Should I sit anyway? Anything to do with these absorption states or just accpet it as is? Any benefit from working on Jhanas and mastering them? 

BTW, did sit today after the walking meditation and the noting sit indeed developed into jhanas the usual way all going hazy in theopen eyes image but sharp center, then murk took over and there was the wax lamp dark matter coming from the periphery towards the center but not able to penetrate it. Center would dissappear a few times. Center got that purpleish haze thats moving like smoke. Heard a sound by the main door and got fear respose and the absorption flattened out. Was just starring at the room around. 

No matter what I practice it all seems like something I have seen millions of times (there is always that irritating comparing with my old practice). All seems so fucking familiar. Same old same old. Im fucking bored with it and yet general feel is so agitated. The body stiffness is not really at the center of attention anylonger. Its there but the mental anguish is the moddafucker.

Would appreciate shargrol to chime in as Im following some of his tips already. Thank you.

p.s. spell check on this computer is not working, sorry about that.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Mind seems to seek to find a familiar ground, something to locate itself in, cling to. Mahamudra is one such gesture that gives mind no familiar ground as its not something one can be in.

Will go now and do walking practice ...
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Walking 45 minutes.

Set the intent to do Listening Mahamudra and so it did. It was easy, floaty, flowing, very receptive to stuff in awareness. At about 35 minutes started feeling great about this day's practice going so well, so I switched to "Look How Its ..." practice. Look how it thinks this is great practice, look how it thinks it back on the horse again, look how it hopes the shitstorm days are over, look how its ...

During this session decided not to do Tonglen if unpleasant stuff arises but to "release" it instead and just go back to "Listening". At the end of session decided to give all merit accumulated to beings which might be overwhelmed with hindrances, but felt resistance to taking their hidrances onto myself. It was almost like "I just came out of the shit storm, can we not keep this good stuff for ourselves". 

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy.
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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I don't know if you got a chance to connect with shargrol or not, but a technique I find very effective to address specific issues is called focussing. It's a bit like realms/elements, but without the arcane terminology and it's more direct and flexible. It's my go-to for sticky stuff these days. It's based on the empirically tested idea that the body knows the solution to its own problems, and all the rational mind does is to get in the way of that natural process. You basically "question" the body what's going on and wait for a word or phrase to arise from the unconscious, then question that until you feel a "shift" in the body, and repeat. As a meditator it comes pretty naturally and you could pick it up in a few sessions reading the first 3 chapters of that book, if it resonates. Maybe worth a try next time something yucky comes up.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Cheers G but my tool box is full for now! I will work with what I already have going. Dont like sitting on too many chairs at once.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Had another go at 45 minutes walking. Did the Listening Mahamudra again and realised that this engaging into "listening" brings about 1st Jhana, with its joyful and gladened mind. Also sensing tranquility being strong after the practice today. Maybe time to accept this tranquility and not fight it or feel aversion to it. It is what it is.

I will see to continue with this practice and see what comes out of it.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Just back from a 45er walking practice.

Had an intent to do Listening Mahamudra as it worked so well  yesterday and guess what? emoticon It didnt happen emoticon Ha! Talk about Intent being something "I can decide on" emoticon

Ok, so I looked at whats going on ... very numb sensation all over the brain, just under the skull, a bit heavier on the left side (during walk but right now moved to the right side). Very slow mentaly, hard to focus, dumb feeling, also some sadness.

Images of my father on his death bed when he was dying from cancer came about, and my grandfather who also died from cancer and images of our memeber Sam who has just been diagnosed with cancer. So I decided to do Tonglen on this subject of being overwhelmed and worried and without hope and falling into despair.

After the Tonglen I could but only note/notice walking, breathing, cool sesnation on skin form the air, birds chirping, walking, awareness, conscious, walking, moving, thinking/familiar ground/memory ...

Im starting to be bored with the mind's tendency to seek familiar ground but also letting it arise-pass. However mind seems desparate to seek for that which it knows. Time to let go of this tendency slowly but surely. Practice goes on.

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings be awaken, may all beings be happy
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 29 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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45er walking. Mostly Listening Mahamudra but it would flow into Tonglen at one stage and "weighing" if to just "release" the object or to "tonglen" the object and at times it would just be released and at times would go tonglen. 

There is also lots of Noting/Noticing today in the Mahamudra , ... kind of flowing from the "gesture to listen" and going rather clear into objects passing. I have noticed that at times there can be different ways of focus in Mahamudra meditation. At times it can be very confusing and diffused, chaotic. At times very spaceous and wide with stuff just being like couds in the vast sky. At times it can be very sharp and yet flip flop from "gesture of listening" to "sharp clear focus".
shargrol, modified 28 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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This all sounds good. One thing to notice is how much of this is simply learning to get out of our own way.

We often want to make dukka/stress go away or to quickly fix a problem, but often the reaction and response is worse than the original event.

The first noble truth is that things will always be a little off, a little "meh", imperfect. Same with our responses, they're always going to be a little off, a little imperfect, requiring a little more fine tuning. Making peace with this helps resolve the fundamental restlessness at the core of who we think we are.  And from that peace, ironically, our responses are just a little more fine tuned.

So paradoxically, buy making peace with the truth of dukka, we're better able to minimize dukka. And if we accept that there will always be some dukka, it's hard to say that what remains is dukka -- it's more like information.

For what it's worth, it sounds like you're a bit averse to formal sitting right now. But you might want to try sitting out outside in more of a dzogchen way. Don't adjust your "attention" in any particular way, just sit outside and allow looking and feeling and hearing to occur. Notice the richness of experience as it is.

Hope this gives you some helpful ideas to experiment with.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 27 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

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Indeed, sitting seems to go into absorption rather quickly and after the tranquility creates a hangover feel and is kind of too spacey. Not a big fan of this. I used to like it back in 2009-2012 but now. Hence not really wanting to sit.

I had an idea yestreday to just sit on a chair as I did since 2019 but this time not use any "open eyes kasina object" and rather let the head and eyes move about and see whatever they see. Still open eyes but without aiding absorption too much with focusing on one object. 

As far as I can see during walking meditation, the absorption can still kick in and can go into tranquility which again feels like being a bit on drugs emoticon I guess there is no way around this, and one is to just let it be as it is while its happening. 

Thanks shargrol for the suggestion I will do some sitting like that.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Just for the record I sat today for 45 minutes and did what shargrol sggested, "dont try to adjust attention and just let it all occur" , the Dzogchen way. Felt a bit awkward to practice without practicing, felt even like standing on the edge of a clif at one stage (falling off or not). Not having any practice to fall back onto and use it as an anchor really felt naked and kind of "hanging out there in all thisness".

Did also a 45 min walking later today and certainly felt strange to just practice without having an actual practice. I realised that even the Listening Mahamudra was somthing "I" could fall back onto and use as an anchor, safe harbour. I will continue with this Dzogchen style as it also caused me feel rather insecure and even inferior as a practitoner. I mean, since I started meditating in 2009, I always had a practice, actual practice, an object of the practice to return back to. 

Ok, I will not focus on logging unless there is something to report, like my head falling off or similar emoticon but wanted to log the start of sitting sessions. however I will first do the walking session as my dog was not happy to just sit there and stare at me sitting when we usually go for a long meditative walk. Sitting will be done later in the day.

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shargrol, modified 26 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 1613 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Sounds good. It's good to play around with practice and personally investigate what seems to take us to our cutting edge. 

One other thing I thought of... if a absorption state should arise, it can be good to look at "where is the ill will that is still left in this numb/blissful state?"

I know what you mean about not liking absorption, but I also recalled that it was very helpful for me to notice the tonality of my aversion when these states arised. I could see that my subtle ill will was a subtle defense mechanism. From past traumas, I was never comfortable relaxing or dropping my guard. Even though I had "fixed" most of the extreme versions of defense, this subtle ill will was still a way of protecting myself. 

I didn't try to change the ill will, but rather really feel-sense it and empathize with it. It simply wanted to protect me... but it was so tired and exhausted from having to protect me all the time (even though there really wasn't a threat), but it was so sure that if he dropped the defense, he would be hurt...  And then I did tonglen on that dynamic, imaging so many people in the world living out this same dynamic...

I found that by fully allowing absorptions, they hit much deeper and came and go more quickly.


Just more ideas to experiment with. Be willing to experiment and discover what seems to connect.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 18 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"Be willing to experiment and discover what seems to connect"

This is the importnat part indeed. I will. Thank you.

Just came by this log to give a short update. I have decided to go back to noting aloud at least one sit (45-60 min) a day. I will not go into the reason why right now but will give more info later.

May all beings be happy
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Let me update the post above;

For a few days now I have been experiencing very emotional outbursts (with my partner and our son) and feeling rather at loss, inferior in anything I did or do. Yesterday decied its time to dig into this state/stage with Noting and did so 2x45 minutes. Already after the 2nd session I felt some load has lifted. Today tought to continue with Noting, sat down ... but there was no interest at all so I went for walking meditation instead and did that 2x45 min , Listening Mahamudra style as it felt natural.

It seems like Im going through some cycles of this. I recollect having such experience before, hitting a hard spot = going full on Noting for a day and then back to some other practice (Mahamudra, Look How Its ... , Tonglen). 
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Chris Marti, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 4063 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Using the breadth of the tools in your toolbox - good to see!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 16 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Good man Chris! Thaks for keeping an eye on this young logger emoticon 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 15 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Today's Mahamudra walk resulted in realising all this experience is La-la Land. I remember when going away from meditation object into a scenario spin would mean "Im lost, and not-awake" and going back to the meditation object again would be "oh, Im awake now". But when "inside" the scenario spin it feels so real. Only when snapping out of it does one say "oh, I was swept away and now Im awake again". But this now means that it feels again very "real" being in the "awakened scenario spin" just like it can feel "real" to be in a La-la land scenario spin. So how does one snap out of this "awakened scenario spin"? Or is there any difference between the "usual scenario spins" and the "awake scenario spin"? Self-Inquiring ... ... ... 
(btw, Im just sharing my thoughts here and am not after answers)

I now can maybe see why Malcolm would say "Its turtles all the way".

Back to practicing-observing ...
George S, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2020 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko
So how does one snap out of this "awakened scenario spin"?

You don't, but by recognizing that it is just a scenario spin it loses its power and tends to spin off by itself. It's just mental noise, a little foam on the surface of non-conceptual sense experience emoticon​​​​​​​

(Edit: oh, just re-read your post and saw that you are not looking for answers ... well hopefully this wasn't an answer!)
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
You seem too certain emoticon 

also good you re-read the post emoticon 
George S, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2020 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Don't mind me, just spinning a scenario emoticon​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 14 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Noticed.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
This morning had a sensation of something holding the brain from the back, as if its just under the skull. Not a headacke but not pleasant either. Stiff neck. That brain sensation later moved from back towards the left side of brain and during walking meditation went up to the top front and now its on the front right side. 

The practice today is very dumb-like. Hard to find words when doing Tonglen. Lots of secenario spinning from the past memories. Tonglen was about that, overwhelming scenario spinning. There is calmness there but its more like "leave me be" type of calmness which might burst into shitstorm. 
I did notice Azura realm tendency of feeling better than another person and fighting to prove that person wrong (one of the scenario spins). 

This brain pressure sensation sure is dumbing and feels like the IQ has dropped considerably.

(spell check refuses to work)

​​​​​​​Che out!
shargrol, modified 11 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 1613 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
"Feeling superior" and "Feeling inferior" were two of the most interesting states that I've noted. It becomes a bit of a koan: "If I was neither superior or inferior, what would I be?"
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 10 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I used that Koan today during the 45 min walking session. Thanks S.

However it came up later in the walk. At first I intended to only practice Listening Mahamudra which went fine for a bit. Also the body stiffness is not there and the body feels a bit more fresh. 

Looked at this Mahamudra some more ... I thought Mahamudra was that very "gesture" of turning towards and maybe it is but its not just that. As there is turning towards there is also silence and there is all the other experiences arise-passing. There could be absorption into any of these objects arisen but it could aslo just be aware of it all just arise-passing, swirling around. There must be Dzongchen in this Mahamudra also. That swirling richness without clinging to any of it.

So then out of the blue shitstorm of old memories flodded the mind. Scenario spins about it all. Mostly about people I loved and which either hurt me or died and I missed them alot. There was this whole commity of "me" trying to tell their story of hurt and loss. Instead of Tonglen and other practices I actually told all these Me's to tell me what's on their hearts but only if we all can include the sensations of feet touching the ground, wind cooling the skin, sound of wind in the trees, sound of birds and airplains in air. And I even promissed to name the content with the name of that particular person of that story. And so we did, one after the other the Me-minds were telling their story about how this person hurt them and they cant trust, how that person died and how we cant open up to passion anymore , etc ... and all that with remembering to keep the body sensations as part fo the story told. 
This felt very relaxing and as a relief too.

After this I asked "if Im not superior and if Im not inferior in this moment, then what am I?" ... I was silence, I was sensation of cold wind on the face, I was sound of airplain, I was hearing of the birds chirping, I was the sadness about "would it be so bad if this is all I ever can be?" 

Did this a few more times and that is all that came up, in similar fashion.
shargrol, modified 10 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 1613 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Nice. Yeah, enlightenment kinda follows a big arc of bitter, than sweet, then bittersweet. At first we have all of the hard work to just develop a practice and to be able to meditate. It's like eating bitter. Then we get in the groove and even though there's sucky stuff, we keep hitting phases of unthinkable sweetness as some of our psychological knots start burning off... and it kinda seems for a while that if we continue on that eventually we'll just turn into a ball of sweet bliss light...  But eventually there is a maturing that happens. There is a realization that some of the human stuff will never quite go away, that there is a lot of non-sweet-stuff that is part of engaugement with real life. Just like how humans tend to start off liking sweet milk chocolate but then switch to bittersweet chocolate as we get old, it's the same sort of thing for meditation/awakening --- we start to appreciate bittersweet more and more as the best flavor.

And "would it be so bad if life was like this?" is a great koan for that kind of maturing.  

By the way, I really liked how you maintained your personal power by welcoming in all the entities/memories to flood in BUT ONLY IF there was also content from the present moment. That was really intelligent and wise!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Thanks S! Much appreciated, your support is! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I wonderif any of you ever experienced non-dual awareness during a stressful episode? I've had an unpleasant argument with my partner yesterday and as she was walking away from me , all pissed off, I walked after her while holding baby son and kept arguing. At one stage my legs were "walking by themselves" as in "I had no control over them at all". Its as if all there was , was the legs walking on their own wihtout any sense of the controling me. This freaked me out a bit as I was holding our baby boy and the last thing I wanted is to either fall or walk into something or even loose control and fall down in case legs just drop dead, so to speak. This lasted for a few seconds. This is the second time I've had such an experience. First time was my hand painting the window, as I explained in one post in this very log.

So what is the story with this non-dual awareness? Its not like its "It" as it certainly is an experience, a mind state at best, and its impermanent and seems to be as fragile as Jhana absorptions. Why should I care about it, if at all?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Now that Im trying to replay that event in my mind it actully seems as "I did not know my legs walking". Its different to the non-dual hand painting the window experience. 

So I was walking after my partner but did not know/sense/lost control over my legs. There was this sense of moving and arguing and holding the baby but no knowing of the legs walking any longer. That freaked me out a bit and I tried to gain control over them as desribed above. 

Partial non-duality? Partial non-knowing? ... dunno ...
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 4063 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Isn't this a common occurrence?

When you play your guitar do you think about what your fingers are doing? My guess is no, you don't. They do what they do, as if on autopilot. This happens to me while doing all kinds of activities, from thinking and talking to driving a car and playing sports. If I had to be aware and attentive to everything my mind and body had to do to make "this" work, I'd fail at all of it.

Food for thought for ya emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Days ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Thank you ... I guess ... ehm ... riding the Ox back home, backwards? ehm ... ? ugh emoticon 

p.s. both boys got cold, caughing ... will be a long night ... 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Day ago.

RE: Look how it’s Mahamudra and Tonglen

Posts: 2129 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Noticing all the tiny "escapes" durig the day , like; snacking, coffee and tea, guitar playing and guitar gear obsessing research , also got sudden craving for tobacco again, ... restlessness ...

... there is this almost panicky seeking in the mind, as if its a shadow (sense of me?) trying to find a good idea to escape into and away from ... ... yeah ... why the escape and from what? Also who is escaping? ... What will happen if I can not escape?

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