If non-duality, then Astrology?

Dan Latner, modified 1 Month ago.

If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 20 Join Date: 3/17/21 Recent Posts
Know what I mean, jellybean?

​​​​​​​yay or nay?
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
Ah! philosophy.

OK I'll bite.

I say 'nay': correlation does not imply causation.

And besides where's the precedence in this?

If Jupiter just so happens to conjunct with Mars and coincidentally your mum has a heart attack who is is to say which is the driver?

So my conclusion is 'mere sophistry, sire'.  I could sneeze one day and the planets could rearrange themselves, such are my powers!
The planets and me are non dual, they might be bigger than me but hey, we are one.

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to predict the future accurately in great detail at large and small scales - over to you.
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
... and besides, if the planets affect peoples lives then does that not imply duality?
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 4073 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
... and besides, if the planets affect peoples lives then does that not imply duality?

How so? Can you please explain your reasoning?
genaro, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 86 Join Date: 11/23/19 Recent Posts
Chris Marti
... and besides, if the planets affect peoples lives then does that not imply duality?

How so? Can you please explain your reasoning?

Yes well... thanks for the question.  I had interpreted the OP as a light hearted  question and was thinking on the hoof but have had time to consider this some more.

 Initially i was thinking of seperate objects (planets and people), erm... they are seperate and therefore best viewed dualistically.  Astrology comes from a dualistic tradition (at least in the west) or so i believe, so if I'm wrong then i'm wrong.  I had though of writing 'mulitplicity' but decided to stick with the original language.

But, on reflection, if we regard dualism as pertaining to a seperate self then for that self to be perturbed by an external object then it has to exist ... 'motions of the planets determine the course of someone's life' thereby dualism, which is the converse of the OP. (although the inference is in the reverse direction)

This ties in nicely w/ some experience i had earlier when i stopped being triggered by some stuff, so maybe i'll consider it some more 8-D.

thank you for your help!
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Stefan R, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 176 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Agnostic on the answer to the question. Against the very premises of the question in the first place.
You cannot derive metaphysical truths from epistemological claims.

Nondualism of Buddhism is about your direct experience, nothing more nothing less. The old Zen Koān gets at this idea it perfectly : "would you rather taste the sugar or be the sugar?" There's a vast difference between what we expeirence mediated through our senses, unconscious processing, emotions, etc., and the way objects themselves occur without a mind perceiving them. So while we're shifted to experience of nonduality there's really nothing we learn about metaphysics (i.e., the world "out there"). Because we will never directly experience the world "out there". We naturally "see" about 1% of the electromagnetic spectrum. With our best instruments we can only reliably detect 40% of the mass of the universe we're in. There may never be a way which we'll ever even be able to indirectly experience these things. 

​​​​​​​Scientifically, causality can only be derived from controlled experiments where there are ideally zero confounding variables. Correlational non-experiments allow for some. How could one design an experiment to test the way stellar bodies at unfathomable distances from us affect our lives? 

​​There is a reason why when asked about metaphysical questions, Uncle Sid remained silent. They're useless, speculative, and unverifiable via direct experience. At best we can be agnostic. At worst they're a waste of our time to dwell on.
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 441 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Astrology is, in best case scenario, a codification of intuitive knowledge, and therefore far from pure on-the-fly intuitive non-conceptual knowing. 
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Angel Roberto Puente, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 281 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Know what I mean, jellybean?

Naaah!  Forget about the jelly. I would have to be more like a Mexican jumping bean. With the worm as a brain. emoticon


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Dan Latner, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 20 Join Date: 3/17/21 Recent Posts
It was meant as a lighthearted question, and I do appreciate the thoughtful responses! 

After a spontaneous A+P last year (which at the time I had know idea what to call it.. but also sort of knew what it was), I realized "holy guacamole - Spirituality exists!!!"

As MCTB says, the context of the A+P can hold a special place for the A+Per. For me, it was thinking about neuroscience and nervous systems. Oh... there's no unified self... KABOOM!

 Curious fellow that I am, I explored all sorts of things. Meditation/Awakening is clearly top dog, "mature spirituality", but I looked at all sorts of other things with the attitude of "what does this do to my nervous system"? Spirituality seems to me something like subjectively developed neuroregulation techniques. I also had a kind of magical, innocent, naive "wow, everything is everything and its all so magical" kind of thing going on.

So with Astrology, I thought about how sitting with an astrologer could have the same co-regulatory effects of sitting with a Therapist, and how self-examination is self-examination. Even if its not true, there could be value to examining ones life in that way. I found it pretty fun, and felt that my chart does feel like it says a lot about me. 

Then I was listening to the neuroscientist Andrew Huberman talk about how getting sun in the morning and evening can reset circadian levels, and how the sun gives us vitamin D. I thought about seasons and moon phases and tides and realized that of course objects in space effect us in some ways. I started wondering how much! To mee it seems like the world is so loud and we're all so full of youtube and poptarts that maybe our ability to perceive subtle sensations is lower than it used to be. All/most ancient spiritual traditions have some astrological aspect, and apparently, even elephants have some moon worship rituals.
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Chris Marti, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

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All/most ancient spiritual traditions have some astrological aspect, and apparently, even elephants have some moon worship rituals.

To me, these things manifest as Mayan calendars, tide tables, and tracking changes in growing seasons for agricultural reasons. Not effects like those claimed by Astrology. And... I'd really like to know how anyone knows that elephants truly worship the moon.

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Dan Latner, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 20 Join Date: 3/17/21 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
All/most ancient spiritual traditions have some astrological aspect, and apparently, even elephants have some moon worship rituals.
To me, these things manifest as Mayan calendars, tide tables, and tracking changes in growing seasons for agricultural reasons. Not effects like those claimed by Astrology. And... I'd really like to know how anyone knows that elephants truly worship the moon. emoticon


Very true. I'm gullible and saw a meme yesterday that said they wave branches at the moon, and then did zero research and posted it here like jamming a branch in my own spokes.
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Stefan R, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: If non-duality, then Astrology?

Posts: 176 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
To mee it seems like the world is so loud and we're all so full of youtube and poptarts that maybe our ability to perceive subtle sensations is lower than it used to be. All/most ancient spiritual traditions have some astrological aspect, and apparently, even elephants have some moon worship rituals

Leaving the elephants aside, perhaps the astrology was the ancient form of celebrity worship -- y'know, not paying attention to the subtle stuff happening right here right now, and deflecting to the whiz-bang spectacular stuff "up/out there" with ample opportunity to project grand narratives?

Don't make the mistake of thinking humans have evolved past their natural inclination towards ignorance. We've simply evolved in how we manage and express it. But the fundamentals are still all there. 

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