(Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

Emil Jensen, modified 2 Months ago.

(Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Hi,

I just really wondered if this has been done..
I would love to see, for instance, what MRI imaigng of a brain undergoing a cessation, looks like. I reckon it's bound to happen sooner or later if it hasn't already.

I tend to imagine a cessation to be like the reboot of a software after installing a bunch of new programs on it.
Don't remember if I got that idea or I read about it somewhere. heh)

Thought you DhO'ers could help me get hooked up with the right stuff? emoticon


Best,


Emil
 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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I just sent a question to Kati, who I know have had Daniel hooked up to equipment for her research, if they ever had him have cessations while hooked up. I'm curious too. 
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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https://roamresearch.com/#/app/EPRC/page/MMtwyVCfS

The measures were done a while ago from what I gather, 2014 I think, don't know where the interpretation and writing process is at exactly but I'm pretty sure this will get published sooner or later :p
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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Cool! From their wordings, I'd guess that they are in contact with Daniel? 
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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They are... (this is the EPRC white paper which was written by Daniel :p !)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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That explains it. Very typical Daniel language. emoticon 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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Kati replied: 

"Yes! I've got him doing 6 of them - I'm analyzing that data now.

The temporal resolution was 1.26 seconds so I don't know if we'll catch the cessation itself - EEG is generally better for that than fMRI - but we should be able to see the lead up and the re-emergence."

I'm dying to hear about the results!
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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The subject of the EEG study was also Daniel actually ;)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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I'm not surprised. emoticon 
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Ni Nurta, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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Does the interest for this topic include predictions on your side what will be found or is it general curiosity?
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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These tools (fMRI in particular) are not quite what they're described to be in the press. The resolution is not as great and we often don't really know what we're measuring - cause and effect-wise. 
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Oatmilk, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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I am not sure if you can see this on an fMRI - EEG would probably be better.  I doubt that you'll see the brain "rewiring" itself after a cessation. What's probably more interesting are the long term effects of meditation on the brain. 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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So we're assuming that everything that we experience has a physical correlate that can be measured?
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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Hey, can't say too much about some data I was just part of collecting at Harvard/McLean Hospital/Martinos, but let's just say that there were lots of Fruitions captured by EEG and fMRI across two different studies, as well as lots of other fun things, now just need to find all the money needed to analyze that data, which I was told was "five PhD's worth", and, while that might be an exaggeration, it gives something of the scale of what we just did.

If interested in helping to fund that sort of thing, which I think will cost a few $100K or so to get it all looked at properly: https://ebenefactors.org ;) We have our operations expenses covered for the year, so all donations go straight to program. Yay, philanthropists! Yay, meditaiton! Yay, cool neuroimaging tech!

Sorry for the shameless funding plug, but it goes to good researchers doing good work in the world trying to move this whole field forward.

Yes, also did collect lots of EEG data on Fruitions over the last 1.5 years as well using my Cognionics Quick-20R (using 19 leads), and that is also going to be coming out as a few papers as time permits using a few analysis methods, as cool findings there! Working on that with a few teams, including the Qualia Research Institute (QRI) and some of the same researchers involved in one of the Harvard studies.

We are also looking for more people to study, so, if you can reproducibly go through insight stages 4-11 to Frution AND also get jhanas 1-5 (or preferably 8) in reasonable time in a somewhat noxious setting (fMRI's are loud!) and mark and grade the phenomenology of how well you did all of that, and could travel to the Boston area, let me know, and I could put you in touch with the formal recruiters. Thanks!
Eudoxos ., modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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It would be worth finding meditators who can reliably do phala-samapatti (fruition with aditthana duration) for a few minutes or longer, that might greatly alleviate temporal resolution issues when capturing fruition.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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As for me, I'm not assuming anything. It's an empirical question. That's why I'm so curious about the results. By the way, the Kati I mentioned is Kathryn Devaney who does super-cool research and is also a diligent practicioner. 

And I know that fMRI is a very unprecise instrument and that there is so much going on in the brain that it's tricky to identify what one is looking at. I'm curious anyway. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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Chris, maybe taking part in the study would be a cool thing for you? You don't have to assume anything. That's for the scientists to worry about. 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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You don't have to assume anything. That's for the scientists to worry about.

My question was to the assumer Oatmilk, who seemed to be asserting that we'll be able to measure everything going on "in there," meaning in the brain/mind. I'm not sure that's true, and my natural curiosity drives me to read up on this stuff and think about it.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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It's interesting indeed. I don't know if I believe that either. However, the logic of the kind of collective dream that our reality is, seems to imply that everything leaves traces, so I'd guess that it's possible to find traces, if the instruments are sufficient. What those traces are, that's a different question. 
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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We are also looking for more people to study, so, if you can reproducibly go through insight stages 4-11 to Frution AND also get jhanas 1-5 (or preferably 8) in reasonable time in a somewhat noxious setting (fMRI's are loud!) and mark and grade the phenomenology of how well you did all of that, and could travel to the Boston area, let me know, and I could put you in touch with the formal recruiters. Thanks!

I really don't mean to cast a pall over this conversation but fMRI's aren't just loud. They can be dangerous for some people. It should be mentioned here that the requirements for even getting into an fMRI machine, even the room it's in, are quite rigorous. For example, any implanted medical device is disallowed. Tattoos can be problematic as they can be ferromagnetic. What are your cavities filled with? When I applied to participate in several fMRI studies back in the day I was turned down for the reasons you'll read about below.

From RSNA, the medical imaging group:

The powerful magnetic field of the MR system can attract objects made from certain metals (i.e., known as ferromagnetic) and cause them to move suddenly and with great force. This can pose a possible risk to the patient or anyone in the object's "flight path." Therefore, great care is taken to be certain that external objects such as ferromagnetic screwdrivers and oxygen tanks are not brought into the MR system area.

As a patient, it is vital that you remove all metallic belongings in advance of an MRI exam, including external hearing aids, watches, jewelry, cell phones, and items of clothing that have metallic threads or fasteners. Additionally, makeup, nail polish, or other cosmetics that may contain metallic particles should be removed if applied to the area of the body undergoing the MRI examination.
The powerful magnetic field of the MR system will pull on any iron-containing object in the body such as a medical implant, certain aneurysm clips or certain medication pumps.

Every MRI facility has a comprehensive screening procedure and protocols. When carefully followed, these steps ensure that the MRI technologist and radiologist know about the presence of any metallic implants and materials in the patient. Special precautions can usually be taken. In some unusual cases, due to the presence of an unacceptable implant or device, the exam may have to be canceled. For example, the MRI exam will not be performed if a ferromagnetic aneurysm clip is present because there is a risk of the clip moving and causing serious harm to the patient. In some cases, certain medical implants can heat substantially during the MRI exam as a result of the radiofrequency energy that is used for the procedure. This heating may result in an injury to the patient.

Therefore, it is very important to inform the MRI technologist about any implant or other internal object that you may have prior to entering the MR scanner room.
The powerful magnetic field of the MR system may damage an external hearing aid or cause a heart pacemaker, electrical stimulator, or neurostimulator to malfunction or cause injury. If you have a bullet or any other metallic fragment in your body there is a potential risk that it could change position and possibly cause an injury.
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

Posts: 3209 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Yes, rest assured, all of those are things they take quite seriously, and any participants would be thoroughily screened beforehand, as it standard safety procedure in such situations.
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Chris Marti, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

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Oh, I'm resting assured having been through the screening process. I'm glad it was done before I bought my plane tickets emoticon
Emil Jensen, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: (Proper) Scientific research done on people who have cessations?

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Wow, lot's of interest here! And cool research publications coming up! Awesome.


Ni Nurta, my interest in this I don't really know how to describe. I think one part of it, is that the more we describe things in a peer-reviewable manner, the more straight forward it will be to transmit the dhamma in the future. And who knows, maybe one day we can just engineer enlightenment by pressing the right buttons in the brain. 

Also, it's just really stimulating to explore.

That leads me to your question, Chris Marti: "So we're assuming that everything that we experience has a physical correlate that can be measured?"

- YES! I'm absolutely sure that's the case. No brain: No consciousness, no colors, no taste, no feelings, no any experience. Period.
And brainscience has mapped even individual senses to be correlated directly with quite accurate areas of the brain. For instance, one area in the occipital lobe corresponds to experiencing red, while another area corresponds to experiencing blue. Same goes for hearing, smelling, feeling, etc. And it does get quite complicated when we get to stuff like opinions, standpoints and complicated stuff like that... Oh, and consciousness! Some scientists believe that we can find the area in the brain responsible for that. I'm personally tempted to believe that consciousness is more inherrent in each part, and the brain does a good job sort of linking it together, so that consciousness can interact with consciousness. And hence we are becoming self-reflective, and a rock isn't even if consciousness is an inherrent part of its parts.

I look at it this way: Existence is multi- (perhaps infinite-) dimensioned.
Some of these dimensions are compantible within quantifiable space (or mathematical space) and that would be exactly the seven fundamental units of time, length, weight, current, temperature, candela, amount of substance. Because these are quantifiable, they can be objective and peer-reviewable. That makes them practical in the use of building bridges, electron microscopes and everything in between. 

That is also the units we use in brain scans, and makes for practical descriptions of what goes on in the brain because it is so square, mathematical, exact, objectifiable.

But some dimensions are not quantifiable and 5 examples of such dimensions are our senses.
We can't say "how blue" or "how tired". Haha.. well, we can, but no mathematical description would make total sense.

Electrons buzzing around in a brain are commonly said to "produce" our experience, or be a part of it. And that's what some scientists want to prove. I guess one could also speculate that we are simply conscious of the brain and it's electrons too and therefore it's the other way around: Consciousness giving rise to its contents.
Which one it is, I suppose is like asking the famous chicken and egg question. I won't bother and actually got into a funnily dramatic episode with a brain researcher at a university I studied at once. Hah, what a thing to argue about!

But instead of looking at it, trying to map out causality (which quantifiable science (e.g. physics) always does), I look at it as exactly the same, but something which can be looked at from all these different dimensions of existence at once. 

All in all, I believe a buzzing electron in your occipital lobe is not just an electron giving rise to "seeing". I believe the electron itself (in that specific environment) IS seeing. (as well as being an electron, and being the corresponding electric and electromagnetic fields, and being it's weight).

So, as you may infer, I guess this is all just a big mental jerk off for me. I have no clue about anything, but I sure to like to be stimulated.
 

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