Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier paths?

Emil Jensen, modified 2 Months ago.

Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier paths?

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Hi DhO'ers,


I feel like I've become much more experienced in walking through the DN nanas over the past 6 years, compared to EQ.
I guess I'm looking for some tips on how to make sure I continue to progress through it.

Right now I am in EQ and have been for some weeks.
It's dominated by a clear view of the seen, felt and heard all at once. A spaceousness and a broadness/inclusiveness of my awareness.
Also, it's very effortless for me to observe and I don't have to note in order to map out my experience. 
This effortlessness makes me clearly see stuff like: Sense of observing, sense of a self, trying/effort, and very subtle nuances of struggling.

In my sits nowadays I just sit and pay attention. I've noticed a bit of that apathy I read about in Daniels chapter on EQ, and I almost don't care to watch what sensations are doing. I suppose they are all a bit of the same.

So I don't do anything specific, but at the same time I observe more flowing dynamics of the senses and sense of self than at any other time.

I guess I want to ask: Should I be doing something here?
Is there something one particularly should start to see on 3rd path before one can progress?

I'm asking with the memory of being there the first time, learning to see urges clearly. I think I also read in Shargrol's compilation of posts, that exactly urges is something one needs to learn how to see clearly in order to get SE.

But what about 3rd path.. is there anything one can say, like: "yeah mayn, 3rd path is all about learning to see....??!?".


Thanks in advance, favorite dhamma community emoticon


/Emil
 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2219 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Make some pop-corn!
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 1654 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
It's interesting that you say "how to get through EQ" -- that's revealling some bias against this state.  Popcorn and enjoying it might be the right answer. emoticon

The further you go in practice, the more it is about the basics and finding a supporting practice framework that helps keep that focus. 

It could be continuing to note: sensations as sensations, urges as urges, emotions as emotions, and thoughts as thoughts. 

It could be cultivating depth in jhana and making the mind pilable and sensitive for insight.

It could be dependent origination: how do positive, negative, and neutral sensations become greed, aversion, and indifference?

It could be 6 realms: is there prejudice/worldview that says oppose, take, just survive, desire/frustrated enjoyment, achieve, or maintain?

It could be 5 elements: what is the reactivity that happens when confronted by emptiness: grab for security, push away and avoid, intensify emotions, become frantic, or shut down/become depressed? 

It could be a dzogchen like binary analysis: are you initimately present with what is occuring or is there resistance/ill will?
Hello shargrol, for the dzogchen-like binary analysis you mention above, is this like the practice of sitting in relaxed, open awareness (i.e. 'Rigpa') and then calling up a more self-centered, contracted state and using that binary/difference to inquire about the self?

Not sure if your familiar with Kim Katami's '2 Part Formula' (I believe he is the founder of "Pemako Buddhism" if you've heard of it at all), but basically the practice is to compare spacious awareness to a more contracted state of self. If it is of interest, the instructions for the 2 Part Formula start on page 9 of this document:
https://asiakas.kotisivukone.com/files/sundarayoga.kotisivukone.com/tiedostot/Awake-Kim_Katami-1.2019.pdf
Emil Jensen, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Haha! Yes, alright, point taken. I just had some cake, so already on the right track :p

But in all seriousness, I do "struggle" (not eating enough pop-corn apparently) getting through this state. In my last two retreats I've marched right through stages 4-10 in the matter of 4-5 days. Then, I've spent the remaining 4-5 days of my retreat being in EQ and at some point starting to go backwards, I think.

I already learned that expectations are not too good for me in this state (I still sort of expect a fruition to come and then a big party in some psychedelic type of experience where all the Buddhas come out and give me piggyback rides while singing "we will rock you" and doing tons of drugs - and i have lots of anxiety and excitement come up, making me all whiled up. I have no idea where these expectations come from, but they're at least as irritating as they're fun to describe).

Also, I've learned that this is not something I can just march through. (Yet, at least...)
It's not like the dukkha nanas where you just have to eat shit for 4 days straight. That's easy enough once one acquires a taste for it.
Instead, it seems to me, I have to just chill the F out (have some pop-corns!) and just be with what is.


I already have a pretty good feeling of resistances and ill-will. Awareness of that seems to come quite naturally to me.
Noting I can do well, so I may go back to that. That's easy, but doesn't Daniel say that noting "doesn't work" in this stage?
The rest of your suggestions I don't really understand.
Or.. I guess I could start seeing if I could practice jhanas....I hate jhanas...I'm no good at it.


​​​​​​​Thanks for your input, Shargrol emoticon
 
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Oatmilk, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 110 Join Date: 7/30/20 Recent Posts
 If you have trouble letting go of the idea that you have to be somewhere else, or that something has to happen, you could also back off on practice time and just do it like you are doing chores. Just sit for 45-60min a day and keep it at this. After going through this process again and again you'll eventually let go completely and that's when change happens.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2219 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
+1 

I would even add and suggest to do Tonglen (shargrol's way) each time you get any level of "difficulty" like these "uncertainties" and "confusions" etc ... (whatever comes up).
I can copy paste the Tonglen instructions if you want! Basically you move yourself a bit out of the way and do this for "all other beings who suffer". Too much of "what can I do to get MORE awakened" is very egocentric emoticon 

Maybe 6 months of Tonglen can do you and other beings some good? Maybe not? Maybe just focus on oneself and how to get "through this EQ stage" instead? emoticon 

​​​​​​​Best wishes as always E! 
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Stefan R, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 182 Join Date: 3/28/21 Recent Posts
Don't fight it. Feel it! 

EQ isn't about getting through anything. Nor is it about controlling a journey. There is no control, only experiences (including the experiencing the illusion of control).

Re-obs teaches us that trying more or surrendering are still forms of control, a thing we're doing to gamify the experience. Everything was always fine. Well, now you're at the fine part and there's still a piece of you trying to turn this into a game -- why's that? Aren't "you" tired of assuming there was a game to play to begin with? 

​​​​​​​Let the thing show itself. You're at the zoo tapping the windows hoping that'll entice the animals to come out of their lairs. Has that ever worked?
Emil Jensen, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Oatmilk, it's a good point!
As I was reaching EQ on my retreat, I felt lots of pressure to get through so I could 'lock in' my efforts. But I experienced just going backwards again hah.

As I came home, tho, and did start just sitting for 1 hour each morning, immediately I started getting more into the groovy flow of EQ. 

And as a matter of fact, this morning I did make some pop-corn for my 1-hour sit (imaginary ones tho), and immediately I felt a release of sorts. I relaxed and it felt good and right.

Then, towards the end of the sit, it was turning dukkha-like, with a sticky and unpleasant outer perimeter and waves of misery....haven't seen that in a while! Re-ob stuff...?


Che, please do copy paste the instructions here. I am curious emoticon Thank you.


Stefan, appreciate that reminder. And yes, now that you mention it, I am indeed tired of pretending this is a game I have to play. 

 
Adi Vader, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 52 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Second and third path are both about understanding DO. How there is a set pattern in which the mind moves as triggered by sensory contact. Learning to recognize contact, vedana, trishna/thirst, ...... onwards to feeling stress at having permitting the chain to conclude.

Then start relaxing at vedana. Totally and completely give up engagement with this process while being sharply aware of it. When you learn to stop at vedana with a couple of different categories of sense contacts - you can replicate it on demand - you have attained to sakadagami. When 'the mind' learns through juxtaposition of chains that conclude and chains that halt at vedana that it is a bad idea to permit trishna/thrist and stops doing it - You are an anagami.

Just the way sense contact has vedana, similarly each mental event also has vedana. The vedana of thirst is positive, it is not negative. When someone says 'I crave a cigarette' they are not experiencing thirst - they are much further down the chain. Thirst feels good!, the mind rewards itself for taking a decision against vedana - a practiced decision - but the consequences of this decision are not good.

Please read this reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/jm1h1h/vipassana_the_midl_practice_of_deconditioning/

Especially the section of how this practice has evolved for me. It is an exposition albeit very crude of DO practice mastery.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2219 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Tonglen

written ​​​​​​​by shargrol
"There is a version of tonglen that I highly recommend:

1. Find some aspect of your present experience that is lacking, is difficult, is suffering, etc.
2. Feel that experience. It can help to name it.
3. State the intention: "if there are any other beings out there that are experiencing this and having too much difficulty with it, may I experience it for them. May their experience come to me. May I fully experience it with no resistance. May they find relief."
4. Feel that experience again. Soak in it, dwell in it. Also imagine the joy the other feels being free of it and how they can gain perspective/insight because they now aren't overwhelmed by it. Go back and forth between you and other.
5. After a period of time that feels right, drop the intention and say, "May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy."

And then repeat the whole cycle again when it feels right.

The benefit of this practice is you are not taking on anything new, you're experiencing what you are already experiencing, but you are taking on what you are already experiencing with a much deeper intention that goes beyond yourself.  And it ends with a reaffirmation that we're all worthy of peace, awakening, and happiness.

Give it a try. And feel free to disregard if it doesn't seem like a good match."
Ben Sulsky, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 131 Join Date: 11/5/19 Recent Posts
It hasn't been possible for me to rush stuff.  The whole point of the nana is that it's teaching you something at a level beyond words and concepts.  All of the efforts of my intellect to out-fox the natural progression of things have been met with frustration at best and needless suffering at worst.  
Emil Jensen, modified 2 Months ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Very interesting, Adi. I haven't heard of a practice like that before. I almost don't know what to think of it, as I can't fully imagine it in practice. All I can say is, I do sense that looking at DO in subtler detail, does seem to be an ability unlocked here, being further on the path than I was...

Also interesting practice by Shargrol, Che.

Wow, so much exotic stuff I could start doing. Haha.

Ben, I think I'm totally with you: Rushing it is not the way to go.

I think, in conclusion, that I'll give my current practice a few weeks and simply look for what happens, now that I made pop-corn. I already do observe DO  in new ways, so I'll let my current practice do what it does. 
With respect to "tonglen" (what kind of word is that anyway? Some Tibetan stuff or something hah), i feel inspired... auch, just did it right now, on the go. Feels powerful. I think I may play with it emoticon


Thank you guys
 
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 778 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Ben, I think I'm totally with you: Rushing it is not the way to go.

You will rush it.
 Everyone does.
Just make sure your selfassesement is based on valid insight and skills and not on significance you give to random outcomes. Reality likes to test.

One question though. If you really are in 3rd path EQ then why would you want to 'get through'? It doesn't make any sense.
SigmaTropic, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 146 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
Agree with Ni Nurta. There is no such thing as getting through eq. And no jhanas? I would suggest re-assessing. 
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 1356 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Search for framework of awakening. Google. That's my map and explaining of 3rd. Sounds like you might have read it  reread.
my experience so far is there are not great cessations within 3rd so don't do that. If they happen so be it but that's not the goal. Open each sense door, combine the opened ones, stay with them till they are permanently open, combined at that speed with solidity in each, then silent stillness as focus combined. Then Look into 3rd jhana/dark night and focus on the aversion and grasping at this fast speed of eq and notice where in the body there is clinging and averting. Dissolve that stuff/emptyness practice. See what you get
Good luck,
​​​​​​​~D
Emil Jensen, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta: "You will rush it.
 Everyone does."Haha, it's not easy then, huh? :p Not that anyone said it was...

I don't particularly want to "get through" EQ. But I did have a bad experience being in a similar place last year. I stopped meditating and fell back into a horrible DN. So I guess I coded myself with the intention to not fall back, that's all. "Gotta keep goin!"

Sigmatropic, "no jhanas" isn't very accurately said. I'd rather say that I have zero affinity for describing jhanas. I go through so many types of experience, some rapturous, some very absorby, some spacey, some pleasant, some chill/cool. All kinds of modes of experience that are clearly different than normal walking around type experience. ...Isn't that jhanic stuff? I just don't have a clue how to explain or describe... so I decided that I don't. Not until I get a good reason to transfer my efforts in that direction anyway.


Dream Walker, I have not read your "framework of awakening". I just skimmed it right now and I think I'll have a look when I have time for that. Thank you.  
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2111 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Emil Jensen
I guess I want to ask: Should I be doing something here?

What helped me through “third” was to deconstruct the whole apparatus of questioning and seeking - the idea that you should be doing something to have an experience other than the one you are already having. Often it’s the case when you really look at a question that it reveals itself to be nothing more an expression of dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs. Such questions don’t have satisfactory answers, but when you expose the dissatisfaction at their core then they tend to run out of fuel. The burning questions are very valuable when looked at in the right way, because they reveal our deepest levels of resistance, aversion & ignorance.

Is there something one particularly should start to see on 3rd path before one can progress?

This is another great question, because third is all about letting go of the idea of progress! Who could possibly be progressing towards what?

Usually we start out practicing with a progress/control-oriented mentality – do these specific practices and get these specific results, reduce these kinds of suffering, have these kinds of new experiences etc. That’s the kind of first/second path mentality. Third is where that approach starts to yield diminishing returns. You’ve already reduced the grossest levels of suffering, but there’s a much subtler and more pervasive sense of dissatisfaction which can’t be precisely targeted (and it’s fundamentally tied up with the sense of “being someone”). You’ve already had a bunch of unusual meditation experiences and, interesting and exciting though they are, you are starting to suspect that the “ultimate destination” is not going to be some kind of exotic new experience/state. Similar to questioning/seeking, the idea of progress is another expression of dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs.

But what about 3rd path.. is there anything one can say, like: "yeah mayn, 3rd path is all about learning to see....??!?".

I would say that third is about learning to see that our immediate experience can’t possibly be any different from what it already is (and what other kind of experience is there than immediate experience?) It’s not that you stop having new experiences or being interested in learning and exploring, but on a much deeper level you start to recognize that new experiences are 100% determined by existing causes & conditions, so in a sense they are not really “new” at all … it’s just that you don’t (yet) see the existing causes & conditions clearly enough. That’s the dependent origination aspect of it, so it’s very important to study dependent origination and start seeing in real-time how all experiences/states/identities are being generated by greed, aversion & ignorance (including all the novel meditation experiences, which you might have thought were going to lead to nirvana, but are starting to realize are just as samsaric as any other experiences when clung to).

The other aspect of it is a deeper realization of not-self (which is also basically dependent origination, because senses/experiences of self are fueled by craving/clinging in the middle links). As you deepen the realization that all experience is not-self – especially our deepest senses of identity like felt sense of existing in a body, ownership of emotions, personality, thoughts, control, awareness, sense of being located somewhere in space, sense of being an individual persisting through time – then you start to realize that it no longer makes sense to say/think ‘this is my experience and that’s your experience’ or 'this experience happened in the past and this experience will happen in the future'. There’s only ever life experiencing itself in the moment and who could possibly say what “your” experience should or shouldn’t be, or what a different experience "was" or "will be"?

This kind of approach is quite cognitively inclined and it’s not for everybody, but if you are having these kinds of thoughts and asking these kinds of questions then it can be very effective. Others seem to get through it on a much more “experiential” basis (i.e. the other 5 senses apart from thought), but probably there is still some element of enquiry/analysis. And if you have limited time for formal sitting then it can be a nice complement, because you can have the questioning/analyzing/deconstructing running in the background while you are going about normal daily activities.

The last thing I would say about third is what shargrol pointed to above – the realms/elements practice (or something similar) which is really about exposing the deepest levels of emotional reactivity, which is the fundamental barrier to accepting that experience just is what it is. We can understand the words and intellectually accept them, but still there might be something deep inside our body saying ‘but I don’t like this experience, it’s not good enough, I shouldn’t be feeling like this’. That’s a whole other topic, but the signs of emotional reactivity are usually all around us in daily life so we don’t need to look far!
Emil Jensen, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 George, thank you for that.

Honestly, I think what you've written above are some valuable considerations for me. But I do have a hard time replying to it...

But..

I can relate to the points you make. Only now, at the point I'm at now on the path, does it make sense to look at questioning and seeking, as well as the subtler nuances of resistance/aversion. I can see it now, whereas before..not really.

It also makes a lot of sense to talk about a deeper realization of Not-Self. This has definitely been one of the take-away lessons of my recent retreat, where I started seeing NotSelf in completely new ways. Not just more of the old ways of seeing it, but a totally new light has been shed on this. 

The realms/element practice which you and Shargrol mention, sounds relevant too. I didn't understand at all what Shargrol pointed at, but if it's what you say - about exposing the deepest levels of emotional reactivity - then that also seems highly relevant to my practice right now as well. On my latest retreat it was also one of my key-lessons to see much deeper levels of this type of reactivity.

So.. say I want to study DO or 6 realms:

Does one take on a specific practice to study these... aspects, if you will?
Like the noting practice, which is very well defined and square in a way: "Just note sensations and let the insight come"

Are there set instructions for these subtler and specific aspects of our experience that one can/should follow?

Or is it more about inclining the mind towards this type of investigation when sitting with an open awareness?

This latter approach would definitely be my own... but is that how one should go about it?



Oh, and on a side-note. I think I've moved on from EQ. I ate some "pop-corn" (read: took a "chill-pill" (read: relaxed much more about progress on the whole)), had some sort of release immediately. And a couple of days ago I had a very A&P like occurance in my sleep where I died lucidly and completely surrendered to it, ending in a bright light of everything being pleasant vibrations. I woke up breathing heavy, whole body buzzing with the vibrations. I felt so deeply appreciative, calm, clear, loving, happy.

(So I don't know if it was a fruition or an A&P event)

Since I woke up from this unusual dream, my mind has been totally different that it's otherwise consistently equanimous state for the past several weeks. Later the same day I found myself feeling deeeeeep misery. Right now my mind is foggy as hell. My otherwise super strong motivation for my mission (work) is put on stand by. I feel like life is just about being here now, and my otherwise strong ambitions are now...gone. Something definitely changed. Perhaps I'll get some insight into what's going on, as I continue to fill out my log and sit for an hour every day...


​​​​​​​emoticon
 
George S, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2111 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
DO is about how blindly reacting to experience causes “rebirth” in different mental states. Link 6 (contact) is experience at the 6 sense organs (including thought). Link 7 (feeling) is the painful, pleasant or neutral feeling occasioned by contact. Link 8 (craving) is the fast instinctive reaction to the feeling - aversion, attraction or indifference. Link 8 (clinging) is where you solidify the reaction - try to keep the painful feeling away, hold onto the pleasant feeling, or ignore the neutral feeling. Links 10 & 11 (becoming and birth) are where you build an “identity” out of clinging - eg getting into an argument due to suppressed anger, eating too much ice cream, or checking your phone when someone is talking. Link 12 (decay/death) is where the identity falls apart as you storm out of the room, start to feel sick, or your girlfriend gets annoyed with you for ignoring her.

The 6 realms are a broad categorization of mental states (rebirths or identities in DO). Titan realm is all about jealousy and competition, e.g. focusing on work ambitions. Titans are competing to get into god realm, the top of the pile, where everyone wants what you have and you are indifferent to the needs of others. God realm is dominated by pride and ignorance, and suffers from the threat of impermanence. Blissful meditation states are god realm. God realm can decay into hell realm where you perceive everyone and everything as being against you, the realm of anger and despair. Just below titan realm is human realm, which is preoccupied with satisfying preferences, mundane likes and dislikes, getting everything “just the way you like it”. When humans raise their sights they become titans, and titans are afraid of falling back to mundane human life (just as gods are afraid of falling back to being titans). Since human preferences can never be fully satisfied, humans are constantly getting frustrated and human realm then decays into animal realm, where preferences are forgotten and you are dominated by basic survival needs. The last realm is hungry ghosts, which is the realm of addictions, constant feeding which leaves you ever more hungry. You can move from any realm directly into any other, although certain patterns are more common. The nice thing about human realm is that it is the only place you can figure out how realms itself works, which is the key to liberation from samsara …

The 5 elements are different types of reaction patterns that happen in the craving/clinging links of DO. Earth reaction is to try to hold onto things (money, success, power) to feel solid and powerful. Water reaction is to push things away due to feeling powerless or threatened, resulting in angry, evasive or reckless behavior. Fire reaction is to try to generate “heat” to avoid feeling lonely or isolated, resulting in drama or conflict, as well as “consuming” substances or people for comfort. Air reaction is feeling groundless or anxious, resulting in paranoia, suspicion, over-analysis or useless busyness. Space reaction is feeling overwhelmed, resulting in incapacitation, confusion, spacing out, shutting down etc. The elements/reactions typically happen very fast (< 1 second) and before you know it you have been propelled into a new realm/mental state. Any element/reaction can lead to any realm, although again certain patterns are more common. The idea of the practice is to become more aware of the reactions, to feel them more deeply and thereby “liberate” them so you don’t react as strongly and spend less time getting caught up in realms. Each element has a “liberated” form - earth liberates into stability, water into clarity, fire into compassion, air into confidence and space into wisdom.

There’s a short introduction here:

http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/text/r/realms_ar_eng.php

https://aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/text/e/emotions_ar_eng.php

Wake Up To Your Life explains realms/elements in much more detail and has lots of exercises (which the heart of the practice). You study your own reaction patterns and meditate on reactive incidents to feel into them and release the reaction. Spectrum of Ecstasy also has lots of examples.

Some people find it too esoteric. In that case there is a simpler and more flexible practice called Gendlin’s Focusing which does a similar thing - you work directly with the subconscious and felt sense of problems in the body. It’s more intuitive, but the nice thing about elements/realms is it fits directly into DO and gives you a better understanding of the relation between samsara and nirvana …

​​​​​​​Personally I’ve used both and still do when things get sticky, although it tends to happen more automatically after a while.

Have fun with it! It's a very personal practice and fits directly into the ups and downs of daily life​. emoticon
Adi Vader, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 52 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Think of 'the mind' as a bunch of processes that are collectively very messy but somehow together they get shit done to keep us alive and functional. to study any aspect of the mind, you need a method, technique or system. Such a technique will have associated with it a conceptual paradigm. You accept the conceptual paradigm as a hypothesis to be tested and the technique as a way of testing the hypothesis.

Is there some 'thing' called DO ... fuck no!
Are there 6 realms of existence ... fuck no!

Buy into the paradigm, use the associated techniques as a vector to guide investigation of the messy and seemingly confusinng mind. And learn something within it in direct experience. When you start gaining the direct experience the technique matters less and less. The conceptual paradigm is seen as just one way of speaking about direct experience.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 1654 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
'Event during night time leading pleasure and vibrations, followed by deep misery' --- are you sure you don't know if the night event was A&P or fruition?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2219 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I think Emil had too much pop-corn! emoticon
Emil Jensen, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
Haha, Shargrol. Ok I am sure :p 

But what I am not sure about is where the fruition event then was....

Either I just missed it, like I've (perhaps completely wrongly) have concluded has happened earlier. 

Or... I have never experienced a fruition and am totally screwed about what I think I am doing (as well as the teacher I used to work with). That would suck haha. 

The part I'm confused about in this case is not whether this was an A&P event or not. It clearly was.. 
But do I miss my fruitions because I am not having them or because I just don't pick up on 1/10 of a second being gone? I don't know. How to get clarity about that...


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shargrol, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 1654 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I would recommend not focusing on where you are on the map for a while, but rather becoming sensitive to subtle greed, aversion, and indifference -- and learning to drop them in favor of appreciation, friendliness, caring, and acceptance (some english words for the four bhamaviharas).

Maps really are there for troubleshooting only. They don't work that well for "what i need to make happen next", but basic, consistent, non-heroic, daily practice and wise use of retreats does lead to what needs to happen next.
Emil Jensen, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
Sadhu!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 2219 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Back to pop-corn but this time drizzled with Tonglen and Brahmaviharas emoticon 
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Ni Nurta, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 778 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
 
Also, it's very effortless for me to observe and I don't have to note in order to map out my experience. 
This effortlessness makes me clearly see stuff like: Sense of observing, sense of a self, trying/effort, and very subtle nuances of struggling.

Maybe put more effort to make observation deeper and even more effortless? Observe reality more carefully. Not because you know there is something to find there but because if there is something there you are more likely to find it if you observe more carefully.

The general goal of any of these practices is to improve your situation whatever this situation is. There are many ways to improve things. One of the ways is by doing something which is known to work, even if you do nto really see the way it work yes. It is valid way of dealing with things and at times only one which is clearly available. Other way is to build up your skills. The kind of skills you feel might be useful and when you have lots of them you will be able to deal with various situations and understand those situations better.

The way I did it was that I dealt with control. The control is said to be a bad thing. This is nonsense, control is great thing. One cannot however rely on ways of control which do not work. One needs to be adaptable in ways the control is done, also because it often impossible to know in advance how to do this control and also often it is impossible to do any control because you will lack something I could call as a 'handle'. With handle you can move object easily, without it it might not be possible. Like a hot cup of tea, might be movable if you don't care for high temperature but with handle it is easy.

When you penetrate something to find what are the things this something is made from you get to simpler and simpler things and those are usually easier to control, they might have handles you were not aware of before you find those simpler things. With experiences any experience is made from other experiences and big composite experiences are often something you cannot change. Some of them you can affect in some but limited way. We get used to use these handles ways and think of them as idea of 'control' which when abused proves itself to not work and conclusion often is that it should be dropped as something that is unskillful. This is wrong approach. Without proper grip on your reality you are its bitch. There might be no handles but handles can be created and by finding how things come to be and finding handles of these sources you can create handles to control effects. Then you can see larger composite phenomena and have means to change it. If you can or cannot doesn't matter as long as you know method to make it happen anyway.

Of course it might be that by no control reality is falling in to places and is good and that is fine, this is also a valid method and one which I like to use. However... this cannot be the only method. There need to be ways to find source of things, to get hold of control of these things and be able to bring reality to where you need it to be. Why? Because reality might not be so kind if you let it sort itself out. The risk is too great. It might not matter that much when you meditate to get paths or whatever but enlightened person should see more, see the bigger picture. Being able to see something from larger distance as a part of bigger whole and at the same time see this thing as the bigger whole for smaller parts is the definition of seeing the bigger picture.

Anyway, my suggestion is to care for cycle of insight or paths less. Those are things which by itself are hardly giving you anything. If you do not understand them then they are not providing you any insight even if you get them. Also if you overly focus on conditions you need to met to get paths you will loose opportunity to notice and figure out more important things about reality. So rather than playing this get path game make your own progress and self development, set your own goals and challenge yourself. Doing that you can also figure out dharma and paths faster and in more detail and depth than just making sure you have all the random experience people say you should have. Besides setting your own goal and develop yourself as a being, as long as this development is to improve well-being of yourself and of other beings is the true meaning of dharma.
Emil Jensen, modified 1 Month ago.

RE: Any difference in how to get through EQ on 3rd path, versus earlier pat

Posts: 306 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Ni Nurta,

Thanks for your help. I must say I don't find your 'control' very appealing to me, although I think it's a very interested type of analogy to use about it: 'Handle'. A bit visually abstract, are you left-handed? haha

I think I really got what I came after in here. Turned out to be pop-corn.
Anyway, I am really happy to both have eaten pop-corn AND to have taken a lax(ative) with respect to obsessing over where I am in the maps.

I'm so ambivalent with it, the path-stuff. On one hand, it's so awesome to see the pattern and to use it to help the practice. It really has helped me a lot in DN in the past, with accepting that it sort of 'has to' suck....
But also, knowing where one is on the path doesn't mean shit if one just practices right all the time.

I've become fascinated with tracking path-stages recently since it seems to actually start working a bit for me. It really goes nicely hand in hand with logging what happens every day, and it's so nice to be able to see that a clear progression actually happens. That it also seems to fit with the theory is just super cool.

That being said, I did take a figurative laxative wrt path-obsession and I am in a really nice place right now. Stage-wise, I think I'm in review. I'm bouncing all over. Sadness and despair about a week ago, now yesterday I think I had a fruition (bleep followed by powerful rush through the body) and today A&P like crazy horniness and a razer sharp mind!


Oh well.. 
 

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