Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Emil Jensen 2/2/22 7:00 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Chris M 2/2/22 7:22 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Emil Jensen 2/2/22 7:12 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Chris M 2/2/22 7:21 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Emil Jensen 2/2/22 7:26 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? shargrol 2/2/22 8:01 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? George S 2/2/22 8:42 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Emil Jensen 2/2/22 8:58 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Chris M 2/2/22 9:03 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Dream Walker 2/4/22 6:50 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Chrollo X 2/2/22 11:41 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Emil Jensen 2/3/22 8:52 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Papa Che Dusko 2/3/22 9:30 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? shargrol 2/3/22 11:37 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/3/22 12:10 PM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Papa Che Dusko 2/4/22 3:48 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/4/22 9:07 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Papa Che Dusko 2/4/22 12:09 PM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? David Matte 2/3/22 4:44 PM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Edward 2/4/22 12:48 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Chris M 2/4/22 6:36 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Dream Walker 2/4/22 6:57 AM
RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou? Emil Jensen 2/4/22 9:43 AM
Emil Jensen, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:00 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:00 AM

Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 319 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 "When the student is ready, the teacher appears..." implies that if one just sits on the cushion - but is 'ready' - the teacher will eventually come knocking on the door and all you gotta do is say "Come in, dawg! I've been awaiting you, go ahead and teach me".

Turns out this isn't happening to me, so I decided to send up a flare in case any ready teachers are within radius.

With a bit of guilty conscience, I once again pop out of nowhere and simply ask for you to help me without offering anything in return. I always appreciate it, thank you.

This time I would like to bring up the question again: What teachers are out there, who are burning to teach some dhamma to simple folks like myself?
The obvious and super easy thing would just be to go to a retreat center and learn directly from the source. But I can't do that. I have too many commitments of the 'real world' to do that for a long time. That being said, I do put in a steady 1-2 hours practice every single day and I'm super motivated and serious. There must be someone out there who would love to help such a meditator regularly over email, phone or zoom or something like that. No?

I should say that I could also choose to pay for teaching as I have before. Then I would know exactly where to go. But aside from prioritizing saving money right now, making paying for it (at least a lot - 130 $ per session!) really an option, I do find it a bit strange to charge for this. I mean.. it's the dhamma. It's almost absurd to charge...or is it? Am I being an idiot? Should I pay for the guidance?

Anywho, I would like just any of you in here to help, if you feel like you wanna give it a shot. Obviously I would need someone who is pretty skilled, someone with paths and some mastery over the jhanas... But really, any regular sparring would be just what I have yearned for in quite some months now.

With rub ('love' said with japanese pronounciation),

Emil




 
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:22 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:05 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
But really, any regular sparring would be just what I have yearned for in quite some months now.

This sounds suspiciously like what you'd get if you started and posted regularly to a practice log here  emoticon
Emil Jensen, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:12 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:12 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 319 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Could be.
But using this forum as exactly that would probably be more appealing if I was looking for inputs from as many different people as I could, in sporadic and random directions all the time.

What I am looking for is something more of a marathon partner. One single person who hopefully will also gain something from a regular dhamma-sparring partner. Conversations are much more real for me face-to-face anyway. I'm terrible at writing. It's stressful, it's difficult to get everything down, it's impossible to convey as accurately.. etc
 
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:21 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:21 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Is your hope-to-be teacher from the Theravada/MCTB/practical dharma tradition?
Emil Jensen, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:26 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 7:26 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 319 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Good question. Didn't even think to mention that.

But yeah, I guess.

I have experience with:
  • Goenka type practice - did 3 years after the book (lol) with 5 retreats
  • Mahasi style noting - have done about 2 years with 2 10 day retreats and at least 1 hour of practice every morning
  • Kasina - did some months quite intensively and do it for fun here and there.
My last/first teacher Abre Fournier was very convinced that I was going through first and second path. Myself have grown super skeptical and would lean towards either the map is not true for me (hah!) or that I just don't have any attainments ^_^ I don't experience fruitions anyway, and I can't do a jhana to save my life. I'm thinking obviously I should be treated as a beginner.

My ideal dream-scenario would be a teacher that I could talk to once a week, with the aim of continously tweaking my practice to ensure that I keep up doing good work. 
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 8:01 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 8:01 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 1760 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Teachers... It's such a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

The number one problem with working with a teacher is that instantly the expectation is they will tell you what to do and how to progress. That's somewhat true, but maybe only 15% true. The progess is probably more due to the fact that (most people) don't want to show up to the next discussion saying "I didn't practice that much" --- working with a teacher mostly moves things a long because we are consistently practicing.

The number two problem is that it is very easy for a teacher to slip into a comforter/cheerleader role instead of a truth role, if there is payment or neediness by the teacher. Just like a therapist, it is very easy to unconsciously create a dependent relationship -- student dependent on motivation/analysis by therapist, therapist dependent on $ and "being seen as valuable" by the student. Then you have a client that is a patient for 10 years with no change in automony or growth. (That's why it's good for teachers to talk about their students -- not their identity, but the situation -- with other teachers so that they can get some objective feedback.)

Lastly, the assumption that there is The Way to make progress is fraught with assumption and assumption and assumption...

It's a double edge sword, but ultimately I think it's much better if the student owns their practice and tries out teachers that appeal to them. The student should hire and fire teachers freely. The student should experiment with different traditions and models/maps of practice. This all revolves around the student being responsible for creating clarity about their own interests and short term goals. 

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George S, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 8:42 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 8:42 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 2458 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Hi Emil, I don't have any experience teaching other than the stuff I post on here, but I'm happy to chat (for free!) if you want to bounce ideas around. My email is agnostic246 AT gmail DOT com
Emil Jensen, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 8:58 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 8:58 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 319 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Shargrol, I feel the damnation you speak of directly. I'm glad I had Abre for a teacher for the time I did. I really appreciated it very deeply. And even though I don't know if she's right about my attainments, I never theless did attain a higher level of practice and lots of insight which surely did result in some very significant changes in my mind and life. 

At the same time I was starting to feel frustrated with paying as soon as I felt I didn't obviously progress as much as I did in the first part of our time in that relationship. I also did feel the wanting of her prescence and her diagnosing and encouraging of me. And there was a subtle feeling of not-right to that.

I'll progress with that in mind, that it can be a double edged sword. For now I just need to slay some obstacles that I think fresh inputs and accountability will help with.

George, thanks for offering yourself up. I'll write to you on email and we can start by arranging a chat.
 
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 9:03 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 9:03 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
At the same time I was starting to feel frustrated with paying as soon as I felt I didn't obviously progress as much as I did in the first part of our time in that relationship. 

This would make a good separate topic - how much should a teacher be credited with in regard to a student's progress/lack of progress? How should we define progress/lack of progress?
Chrollo X, modified 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 11:41 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/2/22 11:39 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 56 Join Date: 1/11/22 Recent Posts
Hey Emil, this resource might be a good fit: https://collaborativedharma.com/
In particular, I think Santtu might be helpful as he works with the jhanas. I saw him one time, and he only takes dana, no flat rate. 
Emil Jensen, modified 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 8:52 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 8:52 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 319 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Chris, that's a complex topic :p
I know that very I got something very directly out of Abres teaching, as she straight up pointed out things to notice that I hadn't until then. She saw that I was not seeing something and told me to look. So a lot of credit to her on that one. But I would never wanna keep track of that, so...


Thanks, Chrollo. That's really interesting! Didn't know something like that existed. Looking forward to checking it out further.
 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 9:30 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 9:29 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"Am I being an idiot?"

emoticon I didnt wanna say it to you, but now that you brought it up ... emoticon emoticon 

Best wishes Emilo me bro!

p.s. "When the student is ready" ... to me means; can't stand that Dukkha, not a minute longer and is ready to apply itself to a method that looks like the only, last raft, available in this deep ocean of tsunami dukkha. To hold onto it as if it is both the Path and the Destination, as if there is nothing else in the entire universe but that raft and never will be. There are no attainments, nothing to gain but this fucking unfolding moment! emoticon 
Maybe a bit less dramatic but something like that emoticon Only then is the student ready! emoticon 
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 11:37 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 11:37 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 1760 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Heh Papa, I think you are right... usually it's when the student says "fuck it, I don't know who to trust but I'm just going to practice myself as best as I can..." that's when the teacher appears. emoticon
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 12:10 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 12:10 PM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 6428 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I could use a sparring partner. I have a little pod, which is awesome, but lately I find that we have fallen into the same trap that Shargrol talked about with regard to teachers. 

Please email me at linda@orulv.se if you wish - and then remind me in my log! I suck at checking my private inboxes. 
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David Matte, modified 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 4:44 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/3/22 4:44 PM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 99 Join Date: 8/3/19 Recent Posts
Hey Emil!

I'm not a teacher but I feel I can offer some kind of congenial comradeship on this path.

I'm "4th path" and have been for a few years now. I think I've had a bit of an usual  path which hasn't been totally based on meditation. That said, I am still familiar with MCTB, mahasi noting, and have experience with the 8 jhanas.

I love to talk one-on-one with other practitioners about their path and practise. I always learn so much from these sorts of conversations — they're my favourite conversations to have.

If you wish to connect, my e-mail is: Matte(dot)David(at)Gmail(dot)com
Edward, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 12:48 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 12:48 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 113 Join Date: 6/10/19 Recent Posts
Having friends to talk to about this stuff is really valuable.
Wanting or needing a teacher implies you want to be infantilised which isn't helpful.
I agree, don't waste your money again. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 3:48 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 3:48 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Hi Linda! Would you mind elaborating a bit more about that trap you have fallen into regarding a teacher emoticon You don't have to name anyone but just the issue so we all maybe learn from it. Thank you. 

It's ok if you don't feel like elaborating on this.
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 6:36 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 6:36 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 4417 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Wanting or needing a teacher implies you want to be infantilised...

This is silly, Edward. I've had several teachers over the years and I wasn't interested in anything but learning something I didn't know and having some one-on-one coaching. 
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Dream Walker, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 6:50 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 6:50 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 1430 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Chris M

This would make a good separate topic - how much should a teacher be credited with in regard to a student's progress/lack of progress? How should we define progress/lack of progress?

I've always thought it would be fun to charge people per attainment with it progressively getting more expensive.....lol
At lest it would curb people's overestimating their progress, maybe. Defining progress was the hurdle i didn't care to contimplate plus overestimating students to clean them out when I wanted some easy money. lol
That's why I don't charge, I'm not wanting to be as evil as I can think yet.
;P
~D
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Dream Walker, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 6:57 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 6:57 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 1430 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
I'd chat with you if you want some free coaching. See If we click and what not.
I'm a little busy with health issues and am coaching another but what the hell, free to run away on both sides if it's not working.
Say yes or no and we can try a vid after the weekend.
Good Luck,
~D
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 9:07 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 9:07 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 6428 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Oh, it's not with any teacher! I just meant that what Shargrol talked about when he was talking about teachers, that has happened with my little group of dharma friends. It's like we are now a support group instead of sparring partners. That can be awesome too, in its own ways, but there's a risk that we are supporting each other's excuses for bad practice. 

I haven't had any long enough one-on-one sessions with a teacher for a long time, so I haven't had any chance to develop that kind of co-dependence with a teacher. The very brief sessions that I do have sometimes are supportive for sure, but they also won't let me cheat in any way, so that's good. I have naver paid for teachings so I have no personal experience as to whether or not that would make any difference. 
Emil Jensen, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 9:43 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 9:43 AM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 319 Join Date: 7/16/20 Recent Posts
 Wow, I be getting on some dhamma dates now. A little overwhelming but OK! I asked for it :p

Linda, I'm writing you an email - I shall try and remember to remind you in your log. If I forget, perhaps you can remind me? Heh..

Matte, I'm also writing you an email.

Sleep Walker... sorry, fuck. Had to go back and check again - Dream walker! emoticon Yeah, let's by all means dive into it. If you're experienced with coaching I'm happy to see if you run away after talking to me.

For all you dhamma daters out there, feel free to also write to my personal direct email: e.stillhoff@gmail.com.

See you soon, dhamma friends 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 12:09 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/4/22 12:09 PM

RE: Guidance missed. O' teacher, where art thou?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Thanks for the reply Linda. I see what you mean. 

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