RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Ben V. 2/17/22 6:42 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Ben V. 2/17/22 6:52 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Chris M 2/18/22 6:43 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Ni Nurta 2/18/22 8:53 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/18/22 2:08 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/18/22 5:26 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Daniel M. Ingram 2/19/22 8:19 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 2/21/22 5:57 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma T DC 2/21/22 10:38 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Not two, not one 2/22/22 1:48 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma T DC 2/22/22 2:42 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Ben V. 2/18/22 8:08 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Eudoxos . 2/19/22 1:40 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Not two, not one 2/22/22 4:36 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Griffin 2/22/22 3:53 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Zigg tron 2/24/22 9:40 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Conal 2/28/22 3:38 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Pepe · 2/28/22 10:07 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Conal 3/4/22 3:59 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Pepe · 3/4/22 7:16 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Zigg tron 3/4/22 11:37 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Pepe · 3/5/22 4:01 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Conal 3/7/22 11:58 AM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Pepe · 3/7/22 3:01 PM
RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma Live Football sport 3/7/22 8:56 PM
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Ben V, modified 4 Months ago at 2/17/22 6:42 PM
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Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

Posts: 394 Join Date: 3/3/15 Recent Posts
 Just saw about this discussion that will be premiered in 13 hours.

Very much looking forward to listening to this, as I'm sure many of you will too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znX6w6shQ7c
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Ben V, modified 4 Months ago at 2/17/22 6:52 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Apologies for those who may have checked the youtube video above I sent just a few minutes after I posted it! It was a medical video explaning a surgery I'm gonna get for hernias and that I was watching just before finding out the Ingram-Armstrong video. Totally sent the wrong video! 

Noting: 'Embarassament'  But laughing out loud too!

Situation corrected though. Edited with right video.

Let's get the popcorn out tomorrow when the video is premiered emoticon Two Dharma giants in discussion!
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Chris M, modified 4 Months ago at 2/18/22 6:43 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Good luck with your surgery!
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Ni Nurta, modified 4 Months ago at 2/18/22 8:53 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Timestamps look like it should be interresting podcast.
I like Daniel podcasts about all this stuff because he is always so passionate and excited about it emoticon
Thanks for posting

Oh, and have lot's of fun investigating fascinating after-surgery sensations ; )
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 2/18/22 2:08 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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I just watched the recording (the right one, not the operation; all the best wishes for your surgery, Ben!). It's great! I love the joy and companionship in the dialogue and the detailed comparisons and the openness to what is still unknown. The questions were also very skillful as usual. I love how Steve so often provides an arena for this kind of respectful and sincere meeting.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 2/18/22 5:26 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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I wonder... the friend who had said to Daniel that he seems to have gained Vajrayana results from Theravadan practice, was that Michael Taft?
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Ben V, modified 4 Months ago at 2/18/22 8:08 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Thanks Linda!

Thanks Chris!

Concerning the discussion in the video (watched the whole thing today): Really enjoyable and informative! 

Also, can't help say that I hope Analayo Bhikkhu can see this discussion and see the example of how having some different views on the Dharma does not have to lead to some kinda character assassination of the other. So much mutual respect there while still not shying away from pointing out points of disagreement.
​​​​​​​
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 4 Months ago at 2/19/22 8:19 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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It was a Western Tibetan tradition nun, actually...
Eudoxos , modified 4 Months ago at 2/19/22 1:40 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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I found this video very informative and wonderful. Especially the description about the envelope (attack/sustain/decay) of greed/hatred changes after the 2nd path, I can relate to tha much better than to the traditional accounts (50% less, for example).

An anecdote about Pa Auk jhanas (it happened a few years back, and I have a second-hand knowledge of that): a monk who was trained by Pa Auk Sayadaw had a student. The monk gave him as an exercise to prove his profficiency to enter and exit the 1st jhana 100× in a minute. So I don't think Pa Auk folks necessarily require 4 hours to consider something to be jhana.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 4 Months ago at 2/21/22 5:57 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Okay, cool. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity! I just wondered because of how Michael describes Vajrayana results. I have a hard time understanding why they wouldn't naturally be the results of Theravadan practice as well, as they seem to be where consciousness simply wants to go (or rather just goes, without any agenda). 
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 2/21/22 10:38 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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IME Vajrayana, esp Mahamudra and Dzogchen (open awareness practices), represent a top tier of practice and realization.  Go far enough down the path and you will manifest those results, regardless of tradition.  

Discussion of Vajrayana vs Theravada easily verges on a crossmapping rabbit hole / dumpster fire, but personally I found genuine Vajrayana results to be much farther down the path than 4th Path as commonly understood around here.  Whether that perception alligns with a traditional Theravadan 4 path map is another story.
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Months ago at 2/22/22 1:48 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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TDC, dare I ask what is "4th Path as commonly understood around here" and what are "genuine Vajrayana results"?  emoticon. Asked in friendship - could be an interesting discussion!

Malcolm
T DC, modified 4 Months ago at 2/22/22 2:42 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 2/22/22 2:21 AM

RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Could be interesting,  could be a rabbit hole dumpster fire.  ;) 

 Seems like a major thread digression though, maybe just send me a pm if you're interested.

Edit:  So IMO definining terms is a losing battle because our experiences vary wildly and there is limited agreement to begin with.  But actually what I'm saying is pretty straightforward: the path continues long beyond MCTB 4th path (however you define it); Vajarayana practices and results represent a kind of ultimate fruition of insight; and regardless of specific practice, if you progress significantly beyond 4th path mctb, you will get into vajrayana territory.  Does that help?
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Not two, not one, modified 4 Months ago at 2/22/22 4:36 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Halfway through ... another interesting point in the podcast is why people can have slightly different experiences at different paths.  From observation, I have seen people achieve insights in different orders, and this can make their paths look quite different, although they seem to all add up to the same thing in the end.

This variation is obviously affected by biology, prior experience, living situation and the like.  But I would also hypothesise that training methods and the associated three-door phenomenology has an impact. Mahasi-style noting is all about impermance, but other practices may promote stream entry through other doors.  Logically, there are nine possible combinations of first and second path insight doors (e.g. (1) Not-self: Not-self; (2) Not-Self: Impermance: etc). 

So the road to third could have nine alternative routes with quite different experienes.  Although I sometimes wonder whether Second path is always Not-self (anyone want to chip in on that?).  But that would still leave three quite different experiences.

My own experience was Not-self: Not-self.  Most here go through the Impermanence door first.

Food for thought. emoticon

Malcolm
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Griffin, modified 4 Months ago at 2/22/22 3:53 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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I wish Daniel phenomenologically questioned Delson about his claims of complete eradication of restlesness and worry, like he did with Garry Weber.
Zigg tron, modified 4 Months ago at 2/24/22 9:40 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Great discussion.  It's such a privilege to hear details of the four path model from people who have openly experienced it.

It's made me wonder about depth of experience in each of the paths. I'm reminded of an analogy that Shaila Catherine used to describe the depth of possible experiences discussed in the jhana world. (paraphrasing) She said it could be like a stone that skips across ponds.  The stone just needs to touch the water to get wet - it doesnt need to sink to the deepest depths. She said this is a way that "light" and "deep" jhanas could be viewed.  SO.. I wonder if paths could have a similar explanation.  I have heard numerous times that Zen folk talk about this or that person having a "deep" kensho or satori. Implying that there are not so deep kensho or satori.  I've generally felt this may have translated to this person got to 3rd or 4th path - but maybe there is another dimension to this.

I also feel like the skipping stone analogy could apply to the stages of the progress of insight. I've heard Dan Ingram talk about the fractal nature of the stages.  I've also experienced this - like there area quick light transitions happening through the stages all the time, like in minutes or seconds, and they happen inside bigger ones that last days and weeks, and they are inside bigger ones inside months and years.  

I hope that they both discuss practice as an Arhat in the next discussion.  I might try and petition Guru Viking to ask this.  Somehow? The what now question.  Delson is one of the few people that has a good online dharma talk about what to do as an Arahant, and Ingram talks pretty openly about his magickal etc practices.  But I think they both view the Arhat as the end of that particular path in a way.  Whereas someone like Jeffrey Martin has tracked the paths into 9 "locations" and says something like 'of course people at different stages of the path feel like that's as far as it goes, you couldnt know the further depths without experiencing them'.  And he's not alone in expressing similar sentiment.  I would love to hear this discussed in the next discussion - maybe with alternative views bought in for debate.

Delson Armstrong Day 9: The Arahant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWJanEntOqs
Conal, modified 4 Months ago at 2/28/22 3:38 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Thanks for this Ben,

I agree with the comments that it was a very interesting discussion. 

One big difference between these two traditions and the way that they describe path attainment and fruition was not really brought out though.  This is the central importance given in TWIM to seeing the links of dependent origination.  Delson did mention DO at one stage, of course, but it wasn't expanded on.  In TWIM the attainment of Stream Entry (for example) is accompanied by seeing the links of dependent origination.  These are sometimes seen directly after coming out of cessation for the first time and are definitely seen, or seen more clearly, on fruition (which usually occurs about 2 days later, if you continue to practise).  For second path, you see the 12 links twice (two lots straight after each other), for third path, three times and for fourth path four times.  This is all explained in "The Path to Nibbana" by David Johnson.  On page 73 of this he states "The Buddha describes the seeing of the links of dependent origination as the door to Nibbāna. He says that one who sees the links will definitely see the three signs of impermanence, suffering, and non-self, but one who only sees the three signs will not automatically see dependent origination."

From what I remember of reading MCTB, Daniel doesn't talk much about dependent origination and he describes atainment of path specifically in relation to the three charachteristics.

Conal
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Pepe ·, modified 4 Months ago at 2/28/22 10:07 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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MCTB2 - Dependent Origination
MCTB2 - Dependent Origination Revisited 

Not only connects the 3Cs with DO but also some differences on how DO is experienced at different paths.
Conal, modified 3 Months ago at 3/4/22 3:59 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Hi Pepe,

Thanks for that.  I see that I should have checked before posting! 

It's strange it doesn't get mentioned when he is describing path attainment and fruition but I can see that he has a good understanding of the links and this has clearly come about in conjunction with attaining the paths.  I still find it strange that both traditions describe path attainment and fruition so differently.  Perhaps you will tend to see what you expect to see, but I think the practice you have been doing has a strong influence too.  I have experience of both noting and TWIM and it's TWIM that has worked best for me. 

​​​​​​​I expect that some techniques may work better for some personality types than others, but it may also have something to do with how rational an approach seems to be.  Noting never really made sense to me in the same way that TWIM does, so maybe that gave me greater certainty of obtaining results.  I think the "relax" step in TWIM is a very important one.  It may be implicit in other techniques but bringing it to the fore, such as they do in TWIM, has a profound affect on the practice.

One other thing that strikes me when reading these passages and also when listening to Daniel in the podcast is his use of the term "fruition".  In TWIM you have one fruition for each path, whereas Daniel talks about multiple fruitions, so it seems that he is using the word differently.

Conal
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago at 3/4/22 7:16 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Hi Conal,

I would say that Daniel Ingram's point (generally agreed by other seasoned meditators, AFAIK) is that DO is seen more clear with each path attainment, while in SE it's not that clear, thus it's better for begginers to focus instead in the 3Cs. That said, The Three Doors chapter detailed phenomenological description has no parallel in contemporary dharma texts.  Probably you'll find interesting Ingram's DhO post: Conformity knowledge is actually in many ways as or more important than the Fruitions. If you want to know more about Fruitions, there's a whole section in Daniel Ingram's best posts compilation dedicated to them. I highly recommend it's reading. 

Regarding TWIM, which I have practiced in the past and have read the two books plus Vimalaramsi's pdfs, I find the "relax" step problematic, because all the instructions and descriptions point towards a 'release' (my word) of tensions, instead of a dynamic combination of 'releasing' and 'allowing/accepting'.  How could real Equanimity prevail if you're always manipulating your experience? IIRC, it's said in the books that relax+smile steps become automatic once in the formless jhanas. That could be either that 'releasing' subconsciously turns into 'acceptance', or that the manipulation becomes so ingrained by that moment that the TWIM yogi cannot tell the difference. If you can get paths that way, it's all good, of course! But ultimately, the end result is beefed-up with lots of samatha. Thus the differences between Daniel's and Delson's descriptions.
Zigg tron, modified 3 Months ago at 3/4/22 11:37 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Fruitions

I've always thought when Dan Ingram was referring to the multiplt fruitions mentioned above that he was talking about experiencing the same level of fruition over and over again for each path and not stating each path had multiple fruitions that were necessary.  Eg stream entry fruition can be had over and over (with some variation or similarity) but it's not necessary to have multiple before moving onto the next path.  I've definitely heard other practitioners talk about it this way.  So I dont think there was some difference between Delson and Dan on this point.

Relax

I have not taken this instruction in the way described above. It is an act of acceptance, it is an act of letting go of manipulations present that are often not even noticed until I relax.  So it has seemed to me to be quite the opposite of the above description.  It is a letting go and falling into, calm, more present, more open, less tense, less stuff, ease. I've come to take this process for granted and even forgotten where it came from. It actually had a significant impact on my practice and general wellbeing and really lends itself to jhana practice and other similar things Im doing.  I had this realisation recently - i dont need to do anything to be aware/present, the awareness/presence is always there, just let go.  It probably came after months of the release of "relax"
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago at 3/5/22 4:01 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Well, Vimalaramsi's instructions aren't particularly of "an act of acceptance, an act of letting go of manipulations". I read:

(1) release gross tensions;
(2) release subtle tensions (related only to craving, not to aversion);
(3) cultivate a positive mind-state

The Anapanasati Sutta: A Practical Guide to Mindfulness of Breathing and Tranquil Wisdom Meditation by the Venerable U Vimalaramsi, pages 41-43

RECOGNIZE
RELEASE
RELAX
RE-SMILE
RETURN
REPEAT

RELEASE: When a feeling or thought arises, the meditator RELEASES it, let’s it be there without giving anymore attention to it. The content of the distraction is not important at all, but the mechanics of HOW it arose are  important! Just let go of any tightness around it; let it be there without placing attention on it. Without attention, the tightness passes away. Mindfulness then reminds the meditator to;

RELAX: After releasing the feeling or sensation, and allowing it to be without trying to control it, there is a subtle, barely noticeable tension within mind/body. This is why a RELAX [TRANQUILIZATION] step is being pointed out by the Buddha in his meditation instructions. PLEASE, DON’T SKIP THIS STEP! It would be like not putting oil in a car so the motor can run smoothly. The important Pali word here is ‘pas’sambaya’. The word specifically means ‘to tranquilize’ and appears as ‘an action to be performed’ as described in the suttas and is not ‘a general kind of relaxed or tranquilized feeling’ that can arise with other kinds of meditations. This point is sometimes mis-understood in translation which then changes the end result! Without performing this step of relaxation every time in the cycle of meditation, the meditator will not experience a close-up view of the ceasing (cessation) of the tension caused by craving or feel that relief as the tightness is relaxed. Note that craving always first manifests as a tightness or tension in both one’s mind and body. One has a momentary opportunity to see and experience the true nature and relief of cessation (of tightness and suffering) while performing the RELEASE/RELAX steps. Mindfulness moves on with a recollection the meditator should then.

​​​​​​​RE-SMILE: If you have listened to the Dhamma talks at www.dhammasukha.org you might remember hearing about how smiling is an important aspect for the meditation. Learning to smile with mind and raising slightly the corners of the mouth helps mind to be observant, alert and agile. Getting serious, tensing up or frowning causes mind to become heavy and one’s mindfulness becomes dull and slow. One’s insights become more difficult to see, thus slowing down one’s understanding of Dhamma. Imagine, for a moment, the young Bodhisatta resting under the Rose Apple Tree as a young boy. He was not serious and tense when he attained a pleasant abiding [jhana] and had deep insights with a light mind. Want to see clearly? It’s easy! Just lighten up, have fun exploring and smile! Smiling leads us to a happier more interesting practice. If the meditator forgets to Release/Relax, rather than punishing or criticizing oneself, be kind, re-smile and start again. Keeping up one’s humor, sense of fun exploration and recycling is important. After re-smiling, mindfulness recalls the next step.
Conal, modified 3 Months ago at 3/7/22 11:58 AM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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Well, I would see it as the combination of release and relax that achieves this.  There is certainly a letting go of manipulations in the release step, and you have to accept that the hindrance has drawn your attention away to do so.

Thanks for the links, by the way, Pepe.  You're a fount of knowledge.  I think they use the term "craving" in TWIM as shorthand for craving/aversion, as they are both different sides of the same coin.  Page 61 of "The path to nibbana" states "When you react to your wandering mind with aversion (“I don’t like this!”), the reaction itself is the craving you are trying to remove.", for example, and this section makes it clear that it is the hindrances (which include restlessness/craving), that are being addressed.

Zigg, yes, the links that Pepe provided describe the use of the term fruitions in this way.  I don't know if repeating fruitions like this is something that would happen when following the TWIM proceedure and I don't know how it differs from Niroda.  Maybe they are both the same.  In any case, it's clear that progressing pathwise makes it easier to experience nirvana, which is a truism, I suppose!

Conal
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Pepe ·, modified 3 Months ago at 3/7/22 3:01 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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I think they use the term "craving" in TWIM as shorthand for craving/aversion, as they are both different sides of the same coin.  Page 61 of "The path to nibbana" states "When you react to your wandering mind with aversion (“I don’t like this!”), the reaction itself is the craving you are trying to remove.", for example, and this section makes it clear that it is the hindrances (which include restlessness/craving), that are being addressed.

Yes Conal, that makes sense. Thanks!  While one may infer that by "let it be there without placing attention on it" it means don't stick with the tension just released / don't re-objectify what has passed-away, it may be interpreted also as 'ignore what remains and then search for subtle tensions' related ultimately to the I. I'm not against releasing tensions or cultivating positive mind-states. And even the smile step can release subtler tensions too, IME. That's all good. Maybe 'manipulation' has a negative connotation. Let me say instead that there's a clear choice in 'guiding', 're-directing' or 'handling' of the perception within the 6Rs cycle, and that explains the end result.   
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Live Football sport, modified 3 Months ago at 3/7/22 8:56 PM
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RE: Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss the Dhamma

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thank for share pro

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