These vibrations are killing me

JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 7:29 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 7:28 PM

These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
Background: Practice is 3-4 hours a day - vipassana, shamata, kasina, whatever feel right at the time

About a month ago, I blipped out for a bit. This was literally like I teleported. Mind state was one way then completely something else in an instant. When I came back I was in A&P with the usual Daredevil vision looking around at the room through closed eyes. It was pretty nice. But...

Sits have gone to shit ever since. The SECOND I close my eyes now, the most intense vibrations I have ever experienced take over. Like Han Solo being encased in carbonite. Feels like I am being compressed into a ball. It's extremely strong, like I am metal and I am being tugged on my one of those giant magnets they use to lift cars at a junk yard. You get the idea. It was kind of cool at first, but it's pretty worrying now.

I haven't had too many sits I would call "good" ever since. I'm getting tugged into weird semi-dream states. No defense against it and it happens instantly. Mind is just swirling around every which way. Like "greatest hits of the self" type stuff and other random garbage. All my concentration seems gone. Disappeared.

Any ideas?

Thanks!  
T DC, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:22 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:13 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 473 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
One thought is non-linear meditative progression.  You may be getting somewhere in terms of the poi, but that won't automatically translate into better concentrated/ calm meditative states.  The whole point with the dark night in fact is that often it brings up a host of new challenges that we are suddenly forced to deal with.  Sitting with it and through it while still doing your best to remain grounded in sensations or whatever meditative object you're using might be your best bet. 

​​​​​​​"Good" sits might be out of reach, but it doesn't mean you're not still progressing.  IME the quality of any one meditation session is not as important as the greater overall trend in development toward insight, etc.
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:56 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 8:56 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
Hey thanks for the reply. I really needed to hear that. Still going and very grateful the ability to sit hasn't left along with the concentration. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 10:50 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/11/22 10:48 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
You are in the dukkha ñanas, allright. It seems to me that you still have concentration, though, because what you are describing is the dukkha ñanas with fairly good concentration in place. You are doing well. It can be a fascinating ride if you embrace it. My best wishes for your practice and wellbeing.
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:29 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:24 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 1206 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
J.P. Hamilton
Background: Practice is 3-4 hours a day - vipassana, shamata, kasina, whatever feel right at the time

About a month ago, I blipped out for a bit. This was literally like I teleported. Mind state was one way then completely something else in an instant. When I came back I was in A&P with the usual Daredevil vision looking around at the room through closed eyes. It was pretty nice. But...

Sits have gone to shit ever since. The SECOND I close my eyes now, the most intense vibrations I have ever experienced take over. Like Han Solo being encased in carbonite. Feels like I am being compressed into a ball. It's extremely strong, like I am metal and I am being tugged on my one of those giant magnets they use to lift cars at a junk yard. You get the idea. It was kind of cool at first, but it's pretty worrying now.

I haven't had too many sits I would call "good" ever since. I'm getting tugged into weird semi-dream states. No defense against it and it happens instantly. Mind is just swirling around every which way. Like "greatest hits of the self" type stuff and other random garbage. All my concentration seems gone. Disappeared.

Any ideas?

Thanks!  



This thread exemplifies of one of the things I don't understand about the POI.

As far as I can tell noting is a fairly straightforward adaptation of the Satipatthana Sutta the sutra on establishing mindfulness. Noting is a way of cultivating mindfulness. When you practice mindfulness you cannot but help get understanding in dependent origination and  the three characteristics: impermanence, dukkha, and anatta, even if you don't think consciously in those terms you still get that just from being mindful.

So why don't people just practice noting, in sitting meditation and in daily life?

From threads like this it seems to me that people are spending most their mental effort on attaining the stages of POI when they should be focusing on seeing how the three characteristics play out in their mind, how dukkha arises from attachments and aversions, how there isn't anything you can find that can be considered self, how the idea of self changes from moment to moment. You can do that right now, this very moment. You don't have to wait to reach any particular stage. You can get awakened even if you are a crappy meditator by practicing in daily life. You don't need "good" meditation sessions that fulfill someone's definition of what you should experience. What you need is persistent mindfulness and that is not dependent on a particulary type of meditation.

As far as I can tell, one of the things people like about POI is that they can use the stages to compare themselves to other people, they know who is "better" and who is "worse" and where they fit in ... some day in the future. But that doesn't help you let go of attachments and aversions and make you mindful in the present moment. It gets you sucked in to attachments and aversions and distracted by hopes for the future. It is counterproductive.

So my advice is to watch your mind, noting is a fine way to do that, and notice when dukkha arises and how it fades, notice how you don't control your thoughts emotions impulses sensations or your sense of self, they aren't you or yours etc.

Don't worry about if your meditation is good or not, if you have vibrations, you can go out for a walk and watch your mind (practice noting) just as well as when you are sitting in a quiet room.

Your first concern should be watching your mind not attaining stages in meditation.
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:42 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:42 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
I think you're right. I went through 3 months of DN earlier this year and it was very rough. Much different this time, so I guess I didn't really put it together. But now that I think about it, it all fits. Been a tad moody lately emoticon Best wishes for your practice and wellbeing as well. Thank you so much for replying.
George S, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:52 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 5:49 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 2555 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Big insights and "discontinuities" tend to open up the psyche and release deeper layers of suffering and clinging. Hence progress often feels like practice has gotten more challenging. That is to say, it's a positive sign emoticon

With the intense vibrations and physical-energetic effects deep relaxation is the key, but in practice that often means figuring out the subtle ways in which one is resisting the process. Sometimes that means less time sitting and more time exercising, doing grounding activities and generally taking care of yourself. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Sometimes fully immersing oneself in a nondual experience of the vibration can help (if there is no perceiver of the experience then there is nothing to resist it!) But the opposite can also work - widening the scope of awareness until the harsh vibrations get subsumed into a broader and smoother energy field. It’s good to experiment, be creative and see what works for you.

But it’s important to note that it is a healing process which can take years or even decades, so it’s good to recalibrate your expectations and try to just flow with whatever experience is showing up in the present moment. Most experiences are bearable moment-by-moment. It’s only when we extrapolate them that they become an unbearable problem (what if it doesn’t go away?) which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. That in itself is a valuable insight into how we create our own suffering by resisting physical/emotional pain and projecting a time-based identity onto it.
George S, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:18 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:13 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 2555 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Jim Smith

As far as I can tell, one of the things people like about POI is that they can use the stages to compare themselves to other people, they know who is "better" and who is "worse" and where they fit in ... some day in the future.

​​​​​​​Jim, without meaning to be controversial and derail JP’s thread, I wonder how much this is true of others and how much might be projection.

Of course I used to be a very progress/comparison-driven meditator and, whilst I like to think I’m less like that these days, I could be projecting myself!

It’s just that I’ve noticed you voicing similar sentiments in the past, so maybe there is something to reflect on there. Or maybe not, in which case please excuse me, it’s just me.
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:17 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:17 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
George S
With the intense vibrations and physical-energetic effects deep relaxation is the key, but in practice that often means figuring out the subtle ways in which one is resisting the process. Sometimes that means less time sitting and more time exercising, doing grounding activities and generally taking care of yourself. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Sometimes fully immersing oneself in a nondual experience of the vibration can help (if there is no perceiver of the experience then there is nothing to resist it!) But the opposite can also work - widening the scope of awareness until the harsh vibrations get subsumed into a broader and smoother energy field. It’s good to experiment, be creative and see what works for you.

Hey George, really appreciate the reply. Lots of solid, grounding advice there. Thank you. Yeah, I have kind of been hitting it from multiple angles. Just letting it take over and do its thing. Going wide and around it, looking for subtle contractions, burning it with the fires of vipassana, etc. emoticon All kinds of stuff. There is a forced vibe to it which makes it kind of scary - but possibly that's a pointer to something. Not at all like what people describe with A&P, but just as intense. 
George S, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:26 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:25 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 2555 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
I think of anything vibrational or energetic (piti) as "A&P territory". When I started practicing I would pass though A&P in minutes. Later on, as I got into deeper strata of mind, I could be "stuck in A&P" for months at a time.
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:50 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 6:50 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
George S
I think of anything vibrational or energetic (piti) as "A&P territory". When I started practicing I would pass though A&P in minutes. Later on, as I got into deeper strata of mind, I could be "stuck in A&P" for months at a time.
I am similar I think. A&P is sort of a default starting place or something? I am not super knowledgable of POI. But it's always (until now) shown up a certain way. Ahh who knows? I feel better just talking with you about it. Thank you so much.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 9:15 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 9:15 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Jim, I think your advice is very valid, but I think you might be misunderstanding what it is that people do when they are navigating the PoI. Sometimes the changes between ñanas are so confusing that focusing on the 3C:s can be difficult. The approach that worked so well for it suddenly doesn't work at all, because suddenly we see reality from a different angle. The navigation is something that we do in order to be able to do what you suggest that we do. Does that make any sense? We are not trying to move further along the cycle, really, but trying to stand firmly on a ground that is shaking and changing. 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 9:20 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 9:20 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
I've had LOTS of vibrations in a variety of ñanas. Around the time of stream entry, I could usually recognize the ñanas from the vibrations as they differed from ñana to ñana. Thanks to that, I knew what biases I needed to look out for as those differed from ñana to ñana as well. 
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 12:44 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 12:44 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 1470 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Jim Smith
This thread exemplifies of one of the things I don't understand about the POI. As far as I can tell noting is a fairly straightforward adaptation of the Satipatthana Sutta the sutra on establishing mindfulness. Noting is a way of cultivating mindfulness. When you practice mindfulness you cannot but help get understanding in dependent origination and  the three characteristics: impermanence, dukkha, and anatta, even if you don't think consciously in those terms you still get that just from being mindful. So why don't people just practice noting, in sitting meditation and in daily life? From threads like this it seems to me that people are spending most their mental effort on attaining the stages of POI when they should be focusing on seeing how the three characteristics play out in their mind, how dukkha arises from attachments and aversions, how there isn't anything you can find that can be considered self, how the idea of self changes from moment to moment. You can do that right now, this very moment. You don't have to wait to reach any particular stage. You can get awakened even if you are a crappy meditator by practicing in daily life. You don't need "good" meditation sessions that fulfill someone's definition of what you should experience. What you need is persistent mindfulness and that is not dependent on a particulary type of meditation. As far as I can tell, one of the things people like about POI is that they can use the stages to compare themselves to other people, they know who is "better" and who is "worse" and where they fit in ... some day in the future. But that doesn't help you let go of attachments and aversions and make you mindful in the present moment. It gets you sucked in to attachments and aversions and distracted by hopes for the future. It is counterproductive. So my advice is to watch your mind, noting is a fine way to do that, and notice when dukkha arises and how it fades, notice how you don't control your thoughts emotions impulses sensations or your sense of self, they aren't you or yours etc. Don't worry about if your meditation is good or not, if you have vibrations, you can go out for a walk and watch your mind (practice noting) just as well as when you are sitting in a quiet room. Your first concern should be watching your mind not attaining stages in meditation.
Wow Jim. Do you have an axe to grind?
Here we have a person asking politely for advice, and notice that he has only 9 posts, and what do you do? You call him out based on your own projections and then try to shame him or being 'guilty' of your accusations that are your own interpretations of his post.

Below I have taken your own words and added my own projections to illistrate my point. Please take it with a light heart as that is how it is meant.

Your post exemplifies of one of the things I don't understand about rudeness. As far as I can tell politeness is a fairly straightforward adaptation of the 8 fold path. Right speach is a way of cultivating morality. When you practice politeness you cannot but help get understanding in right speach and right action and  morality , even if you don't think consciously in those terms you still get that just from being polite. So why don't people just practice morality, in sitting meditation and in daily life? From posts like this it seems to me that people are spending most their mental effort on attaining concentration and wisdom when they should be focusing on seeing how the other parts of the 8 fold path play out in their mind, how dukkha arises from ignoring the other parts of the 8 fold path, how there isn't anything you can find that can be considered self but we still need to act towards others as if they have a self that can be disrespected, how the practice of politeness gives you the opportunity to learn loving kindness from moment to moment. You can do that right now, this very moment. You don't have to wait to reach any particular stage. You can get morality even if you are a crappy meditator by practicing in daily life. You don't need politeness that fulfills someone's definition of what you should experience. What you need is persistent morality training and that is not dependent on a particulary type of meditation. As far as I can tell, one of the things people like about the 8 fold path is that they can use the stages to compare themselves to other people, they know who is "better" and who is "worse" and where their morality fits in ... some day in the future. But that doesn't help you let go of attachments and aversions and make you moral in the present moment. It gets you sucked in to attachments and aversions and distracted by hopes for future kindness. It is counterproductive. So my advice is to watch your mind, morality training is a fine way to do that, and notice when dukkha arises from your actions, notice how you don't control your thoughts emotions impulses sensations without morality training, they spontainously arise without effort etc. Don't worry about if your not always perfect, if you have been rude, you can do your best to fix it and watch your mind (practice morality) just as well as when you are working on concentration and wisdom. Your first concern should be good karma not attaining stages in meditation.
Best wishes,
​​​​​​​~D
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 2:27 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 2:27 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
Miscommunication maybe emoticon Everyone has been very helpful.
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 2:40 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 2:40 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 491 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Jim's post didn't strike me as rude at all. I just read it as an alternate take. That's not to say that the OP couldn't have been upset by Jim's post, so I am not saying you are wrong. It's just interesting that the same black marks on the same light blue background can point to different things for different people. 
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 2:48 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/12/22 2:48 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 21 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Investigate what is making the moment "unpleasant". Find the dukha that is making your experience a negative one. The vibrations are just vibrations. It's the reaction/tension/aversion/clinging/dukha that I'd recommend investigating. That little unpleasant tension that always seems to be there. It can be intense or very subtle. There's gold at the end of that rainbow!!
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 8/13/22 7:52 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/13/22 7:50 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 1470 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Martin- Jim's post didn't strike me as rude at all
Please reread the relevent part -
Dream Walker- Below I have taken your own words and added my own projections to illistrate my point. Please take it with a light heart as that is how it is meant.
The point I am trying to make, that apparently you missed, is that when people project upon others - you get a lot of B.S.
Martin- It's just interesting that the same black marks on the same light blue background can point to different things for different people. 
I could not agree more, especially if they skip over relevent portions. (smiles) ~D ​​​​​​​
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 9:12 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/14/22 9:12 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
Robert L.
Investigate what is making the moment "unpleasant". Find the dukha that is making your experience a negative one. The vibrations are just vibrations. It's the reaction/tension/aversion/clinging/dukha that I'd recommend investigating. That little unpleasant tension that always seems to be there. It can be intense or very subtle. There's gold at the end of that rainbow!!
I guess it's not that it "unpleasant" as much as a fear that it is persisting. It just keeps going. This feels like I'm peaking on 5g of shrooms, but without that nice release at the end emoticon If I am honest, there is also fear that I have meditated myself into a corner - somehow the brain is now conditioned to just make these chemicals that are doing this. I know! It's silly, but I was hoping someone else might have experienced something similar - or just a "yeah that happened to me, it went away after awhile" lol
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 8/15/22 6:49 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/15/22 6:49 AM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 21 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
I went through a period where the vibrations were very intense. So much so, that I considered making an appointment with a neurologist. Those vibrations changed as I practiced. The fear is aversion, which is a form of resistance. The more you resist or push away at something, the worse it can get. Like a feedback loop. Those vibrations are there, so except and embrace them. Don't try to make them go away, just let them do their thing. If you feel you have meditated yourself into a corner, you must think that you have some control over how all this progresses. Let go of that assumption. The sense of control is an illusion, just a thought to make the ego feel better. Be kinder to yourself, have more fun, use your intuition, embrace your emotions, don't push them away. Fear is ok. Vibrations are ok. Not knowing what to do next is ok. emoticon
JP Is, modified 1 Month ago at 8/15/22 5:16 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 8/15/22 5:16 PM

RE: These vibrations are killing me

Posts: 12 Join Date: 11/3/21 Recent Posts
Robert L.
...you must think that you have some control over how all this progresses. Let go of that assumption.
A good reminder. Whew what a relief! emoticon