Nihila's Log

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‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/21/23 1:40 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/21/23 1:36 PM

Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
So I figured I'd start a log after finding this amazing place. I already feel very understood and supported on here and I feel very thankful for this.

I don't do much meditation as I'm currently in a "dark night" or whatever you want to call it, often emotionally overwhelmed, and I tend to distract myself by work or other hobbies... If I do sit down and just sit it's mostly to work through emotions. I guess that can be considered some form of meditation or at least a practice of sorts so it'll have to be my practice for now until I get back into a meditating practice.

So I sat down yesterday and went into what I was feeling. It was a familiar of anger but more specifically an anger turned towards myself as self hatred. I have had alot of anger lately, that I had turned outwards in form of blame and frustration but after realizing this it lifted. I could now see how it had been driving alot of my needy behaviors throughout life. The need to please others and the need to impress more specifically. It was a sublte but very meaningful shift and later I found myself very blissful and peaceful that lasted throughout the night and morning.

Today another feeling came up that had been sort of in the background, swirling around lately. I made the decision to go into these feeling rather than push them away like I use to and I can't say I liked them at first, but I let them go through me and and soon realized it was a sort of feeling of relief mixed with excitement and at the same time guilt. Quite shocking, as I would have figured it's usually a feeling you'd want around, but I let myself feel it and my eyes just rolled back in my head and poof, back was the bliss and peacefulness. Analyzing this think it's related to a fear of bad things happening if I let go or let myself be happy, or a fear of blame if bad things happen, leading to this constant state of vigilance. Yes, wow, I think that's it... Over and out for now.
Aviva HaMakom, modified 1 Year ago at 1/21/23 10:57 PM
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Welcome. Yes, isn't it the best feeling when things just suddenly open up/dissolve/epiphanize spontaneously? The real deal of alchemy!
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/22/23 8:45 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/22/23 6:36 AM

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Thank you! Yes, it truly is.

I woke up early today, around 3-4 am. I thought I might as well meditate as I felt I wasn't going to be able to go back to sleep. I sat down and shortly noticed the feelings of disgust and went into a sort of purging, as I have done a lot of throughout my dark night. Now however I felt more able to purge than I have before, maybe because other feelings I usually have weren't in the way. Either way afterwards I layed down to try and go back to sleep and this energy entered from below. It was a very bright and light energy, radiating through me from below, like a million particles buzzing through. Thoughts of being protected arose, not sure if they're related or if it was just some projection but that's what came up. Daniel's face also appeared, as if he were the sun from telletubbies or something. It went on for some time, 30-40 minutes I think and then I fell asleep. Not sure what to make of it but it felt very good and loving.

I'm going to try to familiarize myself with the termonology and maps from Daniel's book (Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha) today, relating to the Dark Night areas specifically, as I'm not very familiar with any of this really. I feel I was kind of thrown into an awakening and dark night very spontaniously and unexpectedly and it's been very confusing and still is so if you guys have more resources of what I'm going through it's very welcomed as I feel it helps tremendously.

Cheers
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/23/23 3:01 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/22/23 2:09 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Finding myself in a sort of equanimous state atm after going through some shaking. Lots of sort of excited energy in my body recently, not very pleasant and a relief to finally get some peace from it. Don't think I've felt this normal in a very long time.

Have also read through some of the MCTB2. Some of part IV specifically about the dark night cycles. I guess looking at the past few days I seem to have gone through a cycle of sorts, with the disgust this morning (?) and fear misery the past days. It's hard to tell. It doesn't feel very cut and dry with there allways seeming to be some intense emotion present or lurking. Now though, very lessened and thank the heavens.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/23/23 12:17 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Been reading the MCTB2 all day, more on Chapter 30, 5-10. Really fascinating, and so affirming that it's not just me. I rarely read, but this has me hooked. I think it's exactly what I needed right now.
I now realize my whole coming to this forum might be an act of DfD. I remember prior to, and throughout christmas having lots of rage and frustration, being fed up with it all, leading to me reaching out for help in various ways, looking for answers... And here they are.

Couple of points I can relate to:

  • At the stage of Desire for Deliverance, we are fed up with basically everything
  • If you find yourself working on your escape plan, try to re-channel that into your inscape plan, such that you can turn attention within at the actual root of the problem in your own heart, mind, and body.
  • Somewhere in here, there can arise the tendency to try to get our lives and finances in order so that we can leave the world behind for a time and have something to come back to without having to worry about such things for a while.
Guess I have some more bottoming out to do.
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 1/23/23 3:36 PM
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The other DfD advice I found helpful is to really feel the crash as deeply as possible.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/23/23 11:05 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Thanks, advice is always appreciated. Yeah I figured I had some more bottoming out to do.

And yeah, went into it and there it was. This utter despair of frustration and sadness. Not being able to do it, just a giving up.

I went into some meditation later on. I let things be and felt things sort of dissolve and at the same time fill my mind up. It felt like riding an edge of expectation almost. I later remembered reading this post and it felt just like that. I think that's the type of sense or feeling that got me into trouble in the first place, what woke me up, what started the whole thing. I guess I have to follow it through.

I feel very at peace in this despair now, and I'll go into it more throughout today. I also feel very motivated to continue, to see what's next. Total despair, yet excited for the future. What a paradox eh.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 3:22 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 12:16 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Been taking some notes the last couple days from the MCTB2. Feel free to use, share, modify, add to, etc.

Stages of the Dark Night – Notes from MCTB2

5. Dissolution, Entrance to the Dark Night

  • Stages five through nine tend to come as a package, with one stage leading fairly quickly and naturally to the next. Stage ten, Re-observation, tends to stand out as its own distinct and often formidable entity, like the icing on a very creepy cake.
  • It doesn’t matter if we practice from this point on; once we cross the A&P, we are in the Dark Night to some degree.
  • If we do get through it without getting to the first stage of enlightenment, we will have to go through it again and again until we do.
  • There are two basic challenges that occur during the Dark Night: one emotional, the other perceptual. The emotional challenge is that our most disturbing and difficult psychological issues tend to come bubbling up to the surface with an intensity that we may never have known before.
  • Our reactivity in the face of our dark stuff can cause us and those who must deal with us staggering amounts of needless suffering.
  • This is a kind of suffering that has nothing to do with the circumstances of our life and everything to do with a basic misunderstanding of all of it.
  • In short, some of the Dark Night stages can feel like we are up serious shit creek without a paddle and headed immediately over the waterfall.
  • The frequent knee-jerk response is to try to make our minds and our world change to try to stop the suffering we are experiencing.
6. Fear

  • Fear can involve all sorts of frightening distortions of perception when sitting, accompanied by intense feelings of unease, paranoia, terror, dread, and/or “the willies”. It can even sometimes seem that our body is falling in tatters through the floor or that we are rotting away.
  • Nightmares are substantially more common in this stage.
7. Misery

  • Misery is characterized by intense feelings of sadness, grief, and loss. There can be enormous grieving in this process.
  • Energy, which may have increased a bit in Fear, may flag again during this stage
  • Concept of self and the world as being permanent, able to satisfy, and even being “me” or “mine” torn up from the roots.
  • The feelings that Misery can bring up are hard to accept for many, and our resistance to this process causes us further misery. Just as with Fear, it is common to come up with fabricated reasons to be miserable after the misery has already set in, a tail wagging the dog type of thing.
8. Disgust

  • We begin to feel completely tormented by our noisy and repetitious minds.
  • Perceiving thoughts as thoughts becomes harder and harder. Gone is the freedom that the insights of Mind and Body allowed us, though they tend to return later in Equanimity.
  • ...we can intentionally remember to see thoughts as thoughts, and it can be very helpful in this stage to note “thinking” when we have harsh thoughts.
  • It is a stage at which it is very easy to be very critical of basically anything, another case of the tail wagging the dog, in that the mind state of Disgust comes first and we then apply it to our outside world not realizing that we just did that, judging things and people harshly due to being at this stage
  • Many in Disgust will find that basically anything but the “highest and best” will annoy the crap out of them.
9. Desire for Deliverance

  • At the stage of Desire for Deliverance, we are fed up with basically everything
  • By some weird trick of this stage, it can be very hard to imagine that we are close to great stages of practice from this vantage point.
  • We can feel that, if we just go far enough out or in, we can get to something better, and the pull towards that nebulous but powerful, imagined “better” can be very strong at this stage.
  • Often this pulling feeling has a stronger component to it of running away, meaning that it can feel more like we are fleeing unpleasant things rather than being called to salvation.
  • In this stage, it is easy to identify with their [historical figures] stories and the feeling that we are similarly “called out” of our comfort zones and to something greater, farther, higher, or at least less bad.
  • If you find yourself working on your escape plan, try to re-channel that into your inscape plan, such that you can turn attention within at the actual root of the problem in your own heart, mind, and body.
  • ...honestly feel that crash, that utter devastation, that agony, that bottoming out, that despair, that longing for release, in all its down-to-earth, real, gritty humanity, allowing that plunge to happen inside you deep down, down, down. Then, investigate that, just as it is [...] So, fall. Notice it. Allow it to be. Notice it is made of sensations: feel them honestly, as well as all the reactions to those sensations. This is the key.
  • ...off the cushion, do not do anything stupid, which is to say destructive of yourself or anything else. ‘Don’t fuck up!’
  • Somewhere in here, there can arise the tendency to try to get our lives and finances in order so that we can leave the world behind for a time and have something to come back to without having to worry about such things for a while.
10. Re-observation

  • Bodily sensations of creepy revulsion, disgust, or profound existential angst may arise...
  • Re-observation is all fluff and no substance. It is like a toothless dog with a ferocious bark. It is like a hologram of a snarling demon that you can just walk right through and it can’t touch or harm you at all. There is a curious freedom when you deeply realize that you are safe in Re-observation, that you can go deep into the pit, and the pit is just fine.
  • Re-observation can take whatever issues and reactions arose in the earlier stages,[...]combine them in fiendish ways, and then crank that intensity to the next level, a level that can seem overwhelming.
  • Beware of making radical life changes that cannot be easily undone[...]based upon the temporary feelings that may arise during this stage
  • We may get the sense that we have never had such a strong emotional life, and until we get used to this new awareness of our previously subtle or unacknowledged feelings, this stage can seem overwhelming.
  • Go into them,[intense feelings] but with wisdom, with clear morality, with some sense that you can go there and be okay, with some control of what you think, say, and do.
  • The classic arc of the hero’s journey, where at some point they must enter the underworld, mirrors this part of the path. Part of the flip side of the next stage involves going there, being honest, dealing with an utterly “un-spiritual” way of being that might not fit your ideals at all.
11. Equanimity

  • Equanimity is much more about something in the relationship to and among phenomena than anything specific about the phenomena themselves. It involves a real, down-to-earth, honest humanity, a real acceptance of ourselves just as we are
  • When in Re-observation you may think, “This totally sucks! Dang, I really want to get to Equanimity!” Feeling into that yearning, being very clear and honest about how you are feeling and thinking, as well as just continuing to practice, makes it all happen.
  • Figuring out how to manage the transition from Re-observation to Equanimity is one of the big keys to practice.

Things that can help:
  • Physical excercise.
  • Yoga with a high degree of bodily awareness, as that can ground people in something other than their psychological stuff.
  • Loving-kindness practices and other brahma viharas
  • Strict vipassana and ultra-rapid noting work well for those with a high tolerance for pain. Slower noting might work for those with a bit more time and less interest in shattering themselves.
  • Psychological healing, therapy, “with a high degree of sensate mindfulness of that process to ensure it keeps producing insights.”
  • The “concentrate your ass off” strategy in the Dark Night has much to recommend it.
  • Some find that softening, opening, and accepting generate much better results than more aggressive approaches such as rapid noting or surfing fine vibrations.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 9:14 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 9:07 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Ok, I've gone through misery today, tons of despair all morning, and I'm now finding myself in disgust I think. Very interesting to watch the shift. Looking back I can see I usually let the disgust run me, but watching for the shift, being more aware as the change happened and labeling it has really stopped it in its tracks, as opposed to letting it create chaos. Wow.

I guess it wasn't DfD afterall, but so very insightful either way.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 2:06 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 2:06 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Allright, definitely finding myself in DfD now. Starting to see the cycle, and recognizing it better. Must have been DfD yesterday too because it feels the same, hopelessly frustrating, only to fall back into misery and disgust today. This I can work with. Starting to make sense of the stages.
Aviva HaMakom, modified 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 10:07 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 10:07 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I have recently been in similar territory, and if I may, I would share the single most helpful phrase about the Dark Night that I found here on the forum aside from Daniel's book, and that was advice from Shagrol (not to me, wish I could find the post) to think of this process as getting "extremely intimate with how it feels to be a human experiencing X," no matter how seemingly terrible X might be. The thing that had kept me DarkNighting continuously was my aversion to fully feeling each sensation, so I got a lot of traction from having noting labels such as "thank you" and "welcome" to difficult sensations, which I found helps them dissolve and transform.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/25/23 1:19 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/24/23 11:34 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Aviva HaMakom
I have recently been in similar territory, and if I may, I would share the single most helpful phrase about the Dark Night that I found here on the forum aside from Daniel's book, and that was advice from Shagrol (not to me, wish I could find the post) to think of this process as getting "extremely intimate with how it feels to be a human experiencing X," no matter how seemingly terrible X might be. The thing that had kept me DarkNighting continuously was my aversion to fully feeling each sensation, so I got a lot of traction from having noting labels such as "thank you" and "welcome" to difficult sensations, which I found helps them dissolve and transform.
Interesting, I will try that, thank you. My past have me very averse to most negative feelings so I think it will be very helpful.

You all are very welcome to chime in with advice and such, and thank you to everyone that has so far. I feel so much clearer going through this now than before. This place is truly a blessing.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/25/23 5:06 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/25/23 4:30 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Had a couple sits this morning, with a break for a short walk inbetween.

Sit 1 (30 min)
Initially I felt this frustration closely, as this very stuck, stern, hard energy. I was attentive to it and could soon feel myself falling through into some inbetween state almost like frustration and maybe powelessness or something like that. Either way I could see that I was angry about situations in the past that I couldn't control. Very illuminating.

I took a short walk and was initially very anxious, as it usually is. Being around people, or just the possibility of meeting people makes me very anxious. On the way back though the anxious energy more or less left me and I felt very good, which was nice, because it's been a very long time since I've felt that in public.

Sit 2 (30 min)
More frustrated energy, but not like the first sit. This time it was more alive and going through me, with some shame also acompanying it. I could see total blackness around me and I and eventually I got to a place where there was like an opening in my entire torso, like a hole of blackness in the blackness. No real insight but interesting nonetheless.

I now feel myself falling into more shame or perhaps another stage of misery. Much less frustration at least.
Aviva HaMakom, modified 1 Year ago at 1/25/23 9:20 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/25/23 9:20 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Here is the website compiling Shagrol's posts, and the link is directly to some of his Dark Night advice. Solid gold.

https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#dnphysicalvsmentalpeople
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/26/23 5:21 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/25/23 11:29 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Thanks, this is very helpful. I actually think I had an important insight into re-observation yesterday that the post confirms. Had a big freakout after I had posted and it felt so unbareable. But I realized that it doesn't help. It doesn't do any good to the situation. Hysterical panic is just hysterical panic, empty.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/26/23 1:11 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/26/23 1:11 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Just had a session with a new therapist and wow, yeah I'm at a loss for words. I just feel so illuminated. We got straight to the point and just worked through it. Bap bap bap. Such a contrast to my previous therapist, which felt like just treading water each time. No fault of hers by the way, she just wasn't specialized in trauma.

There's hope!! something I haven't felt much of through this DN, but here it is finally.
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 7:55 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 7:55 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I just wrote a reply to your last post and saw that you deleted it, but I'll post it here anyway:

It's all cool, par for the course. Just get yourself grounded doing whatever it is you like to do to get grounded.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 8:31 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 8:18 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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George S
I just wrote a reply to your last post and saw that you deleted it, but I'll post it here anyway:

It's all cool, par for the course. Just get yourself grounded doing whatever it is you like to do to get grounded.
Thanks! That's reassuring.

Yeah I felt bad for sort of venting and freaking out and deleted it. Getting a bit more stable I feel... It's just overwhelming with all emotions and trauma with it. It's like a combination of excitement, misery, dread, fear, anger. All at the same time. And then the total dissolving on top of it. I guess it could be re-observation? Really didn't expect it so soon. Went through the excitement though, called my dad for a quick talk and it calmed things down quite a bit, so I'm getting better.
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 9:55 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 9:55 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Sounds like dukkha slammers. It's a sign of progress. Just don't forget to eat.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 10:10 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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I would never.
Aviva HaMakom, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 10:24 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 10:24 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I second what George said - and he is much further along than me (I am also trying to break out of the A+P/Dark Night/Touch a tiny bit of Equanimity but not yet Stream Entry and repeat loop). This is all normal for the territory. The first few go-arounds are really rough and tumultuous and it seems to get a little bit more subtle each time, because more clearing/healing/detox happens. It is like a spiral, and you can also take some steps backwards sometimes and that can ideally be accepted also without aversion (difficult!). 

Giving attention to your Earth element stuff is very helpful: good food, cute animals, friends and loved ones, favorite books, exercise, paying taxes and doing household chores.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 10:44 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 10:44 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Thanks, this normalizing is really helpful.

Oh, so the loop also contains A&P? Interesting. Maybe that's where all this excitement and other high frequency emotion is from.
Aviva HaMakom, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 11:02 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Yes, recognizing and working with this loop has been essential for me, as someone that was cycling long before knowing what meditation even really was!

You may already know about this resource, but I found reading through this compilation of Daniel's posts to be really helpful, he has tons of info in here about this exact cycling stuff (and by his own account went through it hundreds of times, and blew his life up a fair bit before knowing what was happening- that's what normalized it for me): 

https://danielpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 11:38 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/27/23 11:37 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Right, yeah I've realized that it helps alot to learn about the stages and trying to identify them. Guess I just have to surrender to the process for a while more.

Thanks, I wasn't aware. I'll definitely have a look
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 5:13 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 3:44 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Things still feeling strange, confusing and ungrounded. Yesterday was like an ego death through confusion. I took some Zyprexa I had from years ago to calm things down. It dulled me out and I had a very heavy sleep with strange dreams. Things are still calm but also still strange and confusing, childlike almost. Actually reminds me of my psychotic break I had almost 10 years ago now, in where I forgot who I was. Yeah, might be at least partly where it's from.
Allways had an aversion to investigate it, which probably means I should.

Edit: Oh yes, things returning more to normal now. Cheers both of you for your kind support.
Aviva HaMakom, modified 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 6:09 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Good morning- I am so glad that things are feeling more calm. Sending you much metta.

If there is a history of a psychotic episode (even just one, even if that one episode was drug-induced), I offer that you might want to take things extra slowly and gently. Perhaps you might even want to keep going all the way through trauma therapy and get very stable in your mind and life before establishing a time-intensive insight practice. And it would be ideal if you could work with an attained and qualified meditation teacher who has experience working with people with a mental health history (they exist, and people on this board may be able to help you find one). These practices and ideas are extremely stimulating and powerful, and life stability is a precious and delicate thing for all of us. 

I work in mental health (with my own history of mental health issues, of course) and have worked with many clients who deal with different types of psychosis. I myself had no history of psychosis but got within one hair's-breadth of a meditation-induced psychosis on my first real retreat. My work colleagues would definitely say I was in one, perhaps it is debatable. So please know that I mean my comment from the level of a peer, and I would say if you feel you are re-experiencing similar feelings to that time to make sure you have all the support possible.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 8:06 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 7:13 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Aviva HaMakom
Good morning- I am so glad that things are feeling more calm. Sending you much metta.

If there is a history of a psychotic episode (even just one, even if that one episode was drug-induced), I offer that you might want to take things extra slowly and gently. Perhaps you might even want to keep going all the way through trauma therapy and get very stable in your mind and life before establishing a time-intensive insight practice. And it would be ideal if you could work with an attained and qualified meditation teacher who has experience working with people with a mental health history (they exist, and people on this board may be able to help you find one). These practices and ideas are extremely stimulating and powerful, and life stability is a precious and delicate thing for all of us. 

I work in mental health (with my own history of mental health issues, of course) and have worked with many clients who deal with different types of psychosis. I myself had no history of psychosis but got within one hair's-breadth of a meditation-induced psychosis on my first real retreat. My work colleagues would definitely say I was in one, perhaps it is debatable. So please know that I mean my comment from the level of a peer, and I would say if you feel you are re-experiencing similar feelings to that time to make sure you have all the support possible.


Thanks. I take no offence, I appreciate it.

Yes I'm trying to go slow and work mostly on the emotional level, however these things just seem to happen. I think it was triggered by mentioning it in my last session. She asked a bit about it and I think that's why it's bubbling up again. I'm thinking I'll bring it up with her in my next session. I have brought it up with her, asked for an earlier session and she's going to try and make time.

We also resolved an issue about me not feeling I deserved to be free. Might also be related.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 1:33 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Allright, did some journaling to hash things out and work through the feelings and it helped alot. Feeling quite allright and don't feel that weird blame when I relate to things atm, so I think I might have struck the root of at least that. Hoping it doesn't reappear. Feels kinda like halfway between happy and misery, so might be more to it but I don't feel weird and confused and dissolving at least. Therapist moved our time up a couple days too, so that's also nice.
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 8:58 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Actually reminds me of my psychotic break I had almost 10 years ago now, in where I forgot who I was.

Happens to me all the time! It's only a psychotic break if you tell a muggle about it, otherwise it's just another interesting meditation experience ;) I actually enjoy it now. The key is getting out of your head and back into your body, and the trauma work like Aviva says.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/28/23 11:20 PM
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Hah, that's a fair point.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 1/30/23 12:50 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 1/30/23 10:22 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Haven't felt like writing much last couple days. Finding myself in EQ as of this afternoon after a couple days of struggling. Still processing some dukkha stuff but am blissful at the same time. Therapy tomorrow morning, let's see what it brings.

Edit: also, my emotional/subtle body feels and have felt strangely out of allignment throughout a large part of my DN. Kind of like this. It's like what I assume should be at the middle of my spine (wasn't very aware of my interior state prior to DN) has been shifted to the left. It's very confusing to feel properly, as it's so shifted and I actively have to "open up" the left side to access the feels. But also then there are things going on in the right side aswell, which makes it even more confusing. Any insight highly appreciated.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/1/23 7:36 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/1/23 7:36 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Realizing more and more how disgust stage has a tendency of running me. I realize when it happens now thanks to MCTB2, but I don't know what to do about it, and then I eventually purge and things start to return to normal (I have a real aversion to vomiting due to conditioning). I realize it's probably running alot of the old psychotic patterns that resurfaced recently aswell, sheesh what a trip life is sometimes.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/1/23 12:25 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/1/23 11:52 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Went through some really tough basic/core fear feeling that I've been avoiding for a long time, and I think I'm in A&P now. Very high energy, excited, some bottom of spine pain etc. Haven't been here in a looong time, but feels good for a change not cycling the dukkha constantly. Now, what to do here? Investigate?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/2/23 10:10 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Great big ol' dissolution today. Meditation felt meaningless, generally very tired. Did feel kind of like I'm sitting on an iceberg of some volcanic force just bubbling and rumbling underneith me.

Did change therapist yesterday as I didn't click very well with her. Reminded me of my mother, which isn't a good thing. New one feels more warm and pleasant. Hoping it works out.
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 2/3/23 9:38 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Yeah, you could get excited about it ... or you could investigate it emoticon

If I get excited about A&P, it gets stronger.
If I focus on it, it gets longer.
If I ignore it, it gets shorter.

That's the results of my investigations to date.

I'm interested to find out what your investigations might yield ...
George S, modified 1 Year ago at 2/3/23 9:41 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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I know this is serious, but I couldn't help laughing. My first therapist had the same name as my mother! It was great for the first three years, then I moved away and things got weird. Freud probably could have told me on day one that would happen. Trust your gut emoticon
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/3/23 10:17 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/3/23 10:17 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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George S
Yeah, you could get excited about it ... or you could investigate it emoticon

If I get excited about A&P, it gets stronger.
If I focus on it, it gets longer.
If I ignore it, it gets shorter.

That's the results of my investigations to date.

I'm interested to find out what your investigations might yield ...
Can't say I found much insight, it was nice although short lasting. some sense of center and ability to focus, and some positive feelings. Felt social and talked with a friend that also is finding himself in A&P. Warned him about what might be around the corner. Showed him some of the MCTB insight stuff and he seemed almost even more evangelical than before...lol.


George S
I know this is serious, but I couldn't help laughing. My first therapist had the same name as my mother! It was great for the first three years, then I moved away and things got weird. Freud probably could have told me on day one that would happen. Trust your gut emoticon
lmao, that's funny.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/4/23 2:17 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Call with new therapist today, felt much better. Great fit so far. Touched on a few things and voila, anger and misery. Haven't felt that in a little while, guess it was about time. Feels like things are happening at least, in motion.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/4/23 2:51 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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I'm realizing that I'm somehow able to, maybe as a consequence of meditating more and relaxing my defenses, much easier dive into emotions than before, rather than looping and analyzing them. Good stuff.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/8/23 9:34 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/8/23 9:34 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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More DN stuff being dealt with last few days. Not much of note. Getting the hang of disgust stage better and better, and other emotions seems to deepen more and more. Meditation hasn't been great, but I do try to sit with whatever is.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/10/23 11:26 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Yesterday was intense, creepy crawlies and feelings of being horrified. More creepy crawlies today, but with some intense anger and frustration instead. I guess this is the re-observation? Sucks big time either way and I couldn't get much work done. Physical activity/work is fine though, but listening to people, and transcribing what they say? Yuck.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/10/23 2:09 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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A while back, shortly after reading about the insight cycle stages and dark night, I fell into dissolution after insight practice.
Being the capricious type that I am, I stubbornly dissolved to run through to EQ as fast as possible, and not stand up until I did.
So I did! Took about 20 minutes.

Funny thing is, when I after that experience again read about the insight cycle...  I had missed forgotten one, and not experienced it!?
I also ran through them much faster than I should have been able to, all things considered, especially that I have not attained stream entry (SE).

Goes to show how much expectation can script your experience.
Knowing this, having heard Dhammarato debate Ingram whether or not the dark night is unavoidable, I expect to always meditate from EQ, and simply "don't touch the hot stove" when a hindrance arrives.

This is to say, if you are meditating and experiencing a hindrance, and let your attention investigate it, it just might magnify and turn into a DN experience.
...So dissolve the hindrance, and pick a neutral object to meditate on.

I apologize if this doesn't resonate for you, or sounds insultingly simple, but it really has worked for me, and it just might reduce your suffering too.

May you indulge in bright nights soon.
May you be free of all suffering.
May you know true bliss.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/10/23 2:48 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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Thank you for your kind words.
Everyone's differenty. Some carry alot of dark stuff, some much less. I wish I could breeze through it, but things need to unfold more slowly when they're heavily repressed, just the way it is.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/10/23 3:42 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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For what it's worth, I have heavy amounts of repressed stuff too.
I find EMDR started from the 4th jhana is great for that. Provides a safe feeling coupled with easy concentration, which allows processing of repressed stuff that would usually have me dissociate like crazy.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 6:48 AM
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I mean it sounds like a great strategy, unfortunately I don't find myself in 4th very often, and when I do it usually lasts for maybe a day at most.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 12:23 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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@nihila Any way we can support you with dark night? emoticon

I assume you realize, the honored arch-mystic Sir Daniel Ingram offers (free!) dharma consultations if you will ask through DM's?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 1:02 PM
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I mean if anyone knows why my energy-spine feels like it's shifted like this I'd be forever in your debt, lol. Otherwise I think I'm managing ok, it just feels slow. Appreciate you asking though.

Oh, I did not know that. I might take him up on that at some point.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 2:53 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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You will be forever in my debt, then emoticon

What you are describing is the Ida (left and feminine) energy channel. The middle and main is Sushumna, the right is Pingala (masculine).

Combine repressed masculine traits (which many humans have) with A&P and you have the reason you feel the shift.

..as to the cure, well, my energy science is not developed enough to advice you intelligently. I venture to guess doing masculine activities might help.
If the energy stays up constantly, it can be rolled down to the base of the spine, by feeling your tailbone, and creating a feeling of downward rolling, as if the energy was a snake coiling back down and around a branch.

How long ago was your arising and passing away (A &  P) ?

If you describe further symptoms, we might assist you better.
Consider talking to Ingram!
I can also ask a teacher that has taught me well about general energy, if you would like? (and provide further symptoms).
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 2:51 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/the-three-fundamental-nadis
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:07 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:03 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Oh my god, thank you. Yes, now I am forever in your debt, lol.

(You can edit the post and delete the HTML code to fix it. )

As for symptoms, my entrance to dark night was in early 2018, but the energy channel opened later, perhaps late 2019, or 2020. I had realized in a memory from my childhood that I was angry, relating to a rejection I believe. Something released and the morning after I woke up feeling out of balance, with my left side sort of open and vulnerable. I find there's a lot of emotional energy in there (like fear/excitement/shock type feelings) and It's hard to work through like that. Awareness and investigation helps though.

I allways thought something had to be wrong, so this is such a relief lol, wow.

I don't feel like I had a traditional A&P, but I had a direct insight into my non existance, sort of by grace or accident after quitting my job, which was what kickstarted my DN. I did however have a psychotic break in 2015 and that was sort of A&P like.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:35 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:24 PM

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This is so wild, I've actually had the answer 'Ida' pop up as a thought when investigating it before, but always brushed it off as a name from my past, which also didn't make much sense. NOW however it makes perfect sense, lmao.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:30 PM
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Feels like for me it's more shifted to the left, like it's attached at the hip bone completely to the left, but I might just be overthinking it too.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:57 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 3:57 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Ahh I see where the name Nihila is from then!

1. What was happening before your dark night began?
2. What was happening right before the time of the psychotic break?
3. When you investigate that left side, what thoughts, sights, sounds, sensations arise? Like if you just sense it, and allow your mind to run free?
4. Have you ever done any kind of energy work? (tai chi, qi gong, kundalini yoga etc)
5. What is your main type of meditation practice currently? Insight might not be the best tool for this. At least if that imbalance is throwing off your practice, might be better to remedy that first.

- You might like to try the Ho'Oponopono prayer to heal the imbalance in that left side. It's very gentle but also effective, has a metta feel to it.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/11/23 4:04 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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No, not overthinking it, trust your senses.

If I understand what you say correctly, it corresponds to the lateral cutaneous nerve... Which originates at the L2 vertebrae... Which corresponds in chakras to the sacral chakra... Which is said to be related to creativity, sexuality, sensuality, play etc.

This could also completely miss the mark and be irrelevant, I can't know. You might  like to see zygotebody.com, remove everything except bones and nerves, that can sometimes illiuminate energetic phenomena and trigger points.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 4:20 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:37 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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1. What was happening before your dark night began?
I was pretty depressed at the time having recently fucked up at work and quit that, gone off a mixture of meds a few months before, because I felt they weren't working very well. I was just in my appartment listening to mooji in the background doing other things. I remember tuning in to what he said for some reason and he said something like "Take that feeling to it's end" or "follow that thought to it's end" or something to that effect. I had been experimenting with opening up my body-mind, sort of in a vipassana way I guess, and I thought I'd apply it and just try it. In a moment I just opened up and let go of everything and suddenly I realized "Oh, I know nothing, I AM NOTHING" I could see that it had allways been true, and I was laughing hysterically. It felt like something was sort of shifted inside out, like what I saw as me had totally shifted. I think it might also be an effect of this "no sense of center" DN effect. I also dropped into some dark, loving, oneness states off and on listening to him the day(s) after, not sure. Then things started getting intense and weird lol.
2. What was happening right before the time of the psychotic break?
It was drug induced, maybe six months after breaking up with an abusive ex. I was basically running from everything at that point. I was doing therapy, but I didn't really engage properly. I was at a friends appartment with his roommate. I was sitting with his roommate while my friend was in the shower. We were on a combination of things, MDMA, speed, cannabis. We talked about drugs and he wanted to know what heroin felt like. I told him "it's like the hug you never got as a child", then he gave me a hug and I felt really uncomfortable and scared like I hadn't felt before. (Later realized it was a fear of abandonment) I think it might have to do with a repressed trauma I've been told about by my parents, relating to a hug. Not sure, but probably.
3. When you investigate that left side, what thoughts, sights, sounds, sensations arise? Like if you just sense it, and allow your mind to run free?
I'll have to investigate and update later
4. Have you ever done any kind of energy work? (tai chi, qi gong, kundalini yoga etc)
Nope
5. What is your main type of meditation practice currently? Insight might not be the best tool for this. At least if that imbalance is throwing off your practice, might be better to remedy that first.
I usually just sit with whatever is, trying to be aware of the energy in my body and investigating it. Alternatively just sit with focus on breath.

I should perhaps say too that there's been lots of purging from there too (left side), this disgust, vomiting type purging.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 8:36 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 5:25 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I could also describe it as this line going through my entire left side, from my leg to my temple sort of. Like a 2-3 inch band going up my left side. I think there's alot of fear in it. I went into it this morning and there was lots of shaking fear/horror type feeling...

Edit: Preceeded by anger mostly (and disgust). I think it's rooted in some fear of blame or something. Feeling threatened is a part of it. Also the band type of feeling subsided afterwards, and now it's back to being attached at the left hip again, this energy channel, more dormant and going down along my leg, and up to my temple, but not along the body, rather more just around in it in the area.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 11:25 AM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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That's a lot to go through. You have my sympathy and compassion.

To summarize, you are currently battling the dark night, have a history of (repressed) trauma, a shifted energy spine/overactive Ida nadi, and your meditation practice is daily, short duration breath observation or investigation of whatever is arising for you. 

To tell you the truth, I don't know what the right course of action is here. Some say to end the DN you have to attain a fruition, like StreamEntry.
Then again, I don't know what kind of concentration you have, given you are bothered by the Ida nadi.
Furthermore, a history of trauma increases the risk of adverse effects from insight practice.

Now I don't want to hijack you thread or anything, but I suggest we tag and ask some wiser people.
I think Freya had kundalini awakening too, and might know what to do about that Ida nadi.
You can also tag @ Daniel Ingram, he might have ideas I know nothing of.
What do you say?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 1:00 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 12:04 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I mean yeah, anything that can help I feel like, cause progress is slow and these seem like pretty esoteric problems, lol. Hijack away.

I can say concentration isn't great, for the reasons you mentioned and DN in general I guess. When I'm in A&P or EQ it's better. A&P good, EQ still off due to imbalance I feel, but still better than in 3rd. Investigation into energy helps alot though, and getting out of the house also helps to clear my mind.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 1:13 PM
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RE: Nihila's Log

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@danielmingram Honored archmystic, if you have a moment to spare, would you chime in with your perspective, sir?

Nihila encountered dark night after listening to Mooji (of all people!) caused A&P to start.
History of repressed and largely unresolved trauma.
Later psychotic break caused a "shift of the energy spine to the left" ; overactive Ida nadi. Feels associated with emotions of fear and misery.
Morality trip appears decently together.
Daily practice is breath observation or vipassana like investigation (assume short duration).

- What is the wisest course of action for this scenario? Intensive insight meditation until SE to end DN or resolve trauma first? Something else a better idea?
I fear our friend Nihila wont progress with the practice currently described.

@freya You had kundalini phenomena, right? How did SE affect that? Would you happen to have any advice on an overactive Ida nadi, and how to heal it?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 1:40 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 1:37 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
Psychotic break was earlier (2015), Mooji A&P event was 2018. Ida Nadi imbalance stuff started ~2020.

I should add I work with trauma specialized therapist, just started around christmas.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/039/539/praygecover.jpg
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 1:47 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 1:47 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I stand corrected.
What modality of therapy is that?
What was happening around the Ida nadi imbalance? Maybe I got confused.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:01 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:01 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
but the energy channel opened later, perhaps late 2019, or 2020. I had realized in a memory from my childhood that I was angry, relating to a rejection I believe. Something released and the morning after I woke up feeling out of balance, with my left side sort of open and vulnerable.
From earlier post.

I have no idea, it's through betterhelp. There's nothing about modality on her information page, but I could ask.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:21 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:21 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Sorry if I forget and mix things up, I cannot brain these days. Am quitting caffeine and feeling like my head is full of porridge.

What modality is important! Many modalities do next to nothing for major trauma. If it's talk therapy, there is a good chance it wont provide full cure.
I hate to sound so pessimistic, it's just that I  dont want you to waste time, money and suffering like I did.
They say their stuff is "evidence based" and then they have evidence that 10% show some reduction in symptoms...
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:34 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:34 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Hah, you're good. I just wanted to get things correct.

I am licensed in the UK with 11 years of professional work experience. I have experience in helping clients with stress and anxiety, relationship issues, family conflicts, & trauma and abuse. I believe in treating everyone with respect, sensitivity, and compassion. I will tailor our dialog and treatment plan to meet your unique and specific needs. Taking the first step to sign up for therapy can take courage and I am proud of you for getting started!

That's what's on there. I could ask if she does any specific modality. What, other than EMDR I presume, would you recommend?
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:37 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 2:37 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Hey, looks like you are getting good support, but just adding two suggestions to the mix: Tara Springett's Healing Kundalini Symptoms book, and Shift into Freedom, by Loch Kelly. 

Also, definitely take it easy with this stuff, and remember to balance the Seven Factors skillfully.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 3:00 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 3:00 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Hi Daniel, thanks I'll have a look at those.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/039/539/praygecover.jpg
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 3:44 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 3:42 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Chances are she is a talk-therapy type, if she has not loudly and proudly proclaimed what modality she uses to cure trauma, and given you a decent diagnosis and prognosis.

Short answer blanket recommendation? For you: Internal family systems. Haven't tried it myself, but it's one of the main modalities for trauma that people actually report working deeply and long term. Can also be done remote, as betterhelp is.
Doesn't seem to have the "hangover" that EMDR often gives. That can be brutal and stop progress for many.

Longer answer? Depends on your predisposition  - if you are a kinesthetic type learner, or analytical, or something else.
Also depends on your availability of a skilled therapist that you trust. If you have a virtuouso of some modality, that will matter more than the specific modality they provide.
The main ones are internal family systems (IFS), EMDR, somatic experiencing and if you can find someone who really knows their stuff, hypnotherapy can also work for trauma.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 3:45 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 3:45 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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May the devil take that HTML formatting error stuff.

It will learn to respect MY AUTHOROTAH!!!
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 4:00 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/12/23 4:00 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Very cool. I'll take that into consideration. I'll ask my therapist aswell what she uses. Thank you so much for all your support.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/13/23 4:53 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/13/23 10:19 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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So I had another session with my therapist today. 2nd session with her. I asked about modality and she said she works "Existentially", mentioning something about working with worry and nervousness. And that she also works philosophically, and also somatically, talking about the breath and how trauma is stored in the body. So no modality, but there is the essence of it I guess.

We also went into spirituality. Talked a bit about my awakening and I mentioned the dark night to her. I asked if she was willing to read about it and she was very positive to it. I sent her the MCTB2 and told her to read the insight stages and she went straight into it after our session.

Lots going on today so I'm basically spent. Disgust/dfd stage making me feel crazy all day basically. Otherwise not much of note.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/14/23 11:25 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/14/23 11:25 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Met some of the anger yesterday, and it quickly turned to tears. Very subtle but also very powerful. Bliss followed, have continued throughout today too. Some more Dfd stuff dealt with today, and more peace followed.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/14/23 2:10 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/14/23 2:03 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Had a couple short sits this evening. 2x ~20min

First sit I got into some past experiences and a couple connections appeared that I hadn't seen before and it felt like something released.

Second sit I just sat and eventually found this total stillness. Never experienced stillness like that before, like completely consistent stillness. There's usually alot of energy moving around in my body but it just stopped. Very exciting and very cool. 3 months ago I couldn't even get myself to meditate.

On another note, I think the Nadi stuff has been somewhat balanced. I did a lot of purging yesterday from the place of imbalance, and I think that resolved some stuff, coupled with therapy and some inner work. Don't feel as unbalanced today, rather very together and stable compared to normal.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 12:29 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 12:22 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Not much of note last few days, but a couple things.

- Breath work
I don't do much of it, but might take it up more after trying it yesterday. It seemed to help me work through some fear energy as it's very subsided today compared to yesterday.

- Integration of A&P insight (Non existance/self as nothingness)

It seems it's not fully integrated yet. Figured it would come later but it seems to be related to the left nadi stuff.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 1:26 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 1:26 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Sorry if this is me repeating myself, I cant really think straight, but are you aware that streamentry is the proper end to Dark nighting?
Once you attain the fruition and path, you can call up the various insight states at will.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 2:22 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 2:22 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Sure, I figure it will end at some point. I haven't really read much on the latter stages as it's not really that relevant to me atm.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 2:31 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/17/23 2:30 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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In other words, if it's true that you will be cycling through dark night stages until you attain stream entry (which is what I remember reading in MCTB ),
then you are at risk of suffering for the rest of your life and most of your time, if you do not attain stream entry.

If stream entry generally takes 10-14 days of focused retreat time to attain, I would argue this is relevant to you.

Could be that I am wrong, or remember wrong, but thought you should know.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 8:44 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 8:44 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Thanks, I'm not too worried about it.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 11:35 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 11:35 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Why not? How are you not worried? What are you then?

Dark nighting sucks very hard, we both know from experience. If someone (Ingram) who has talked to hundreds if not thousands at this point says the overarching pattern is for people who have crossed the A&P (as we both have) is to be stuck in perpetual dark night nanas, with temporary EQ being the best outcome - how is this not worrying to you?
Do you have some hack to unfucking the DN that you would like to share? Because I really want there to be one!
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 12:15 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 12:08 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I'm making progress and I have a path forward so I'm not worried about making it through.

Why are you so worried?
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 2:53 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 2:53 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
My friend, I tell you this with all the metta in me: I am not trying to discourage you or say that what you are doing is wrong.
Therapy and meditation are both great things, and I have done plenty of both myself.
What I am trying to say is what you are doing might not be enough to put a permanent end to the suffering of the dark night.



The following is from MCTB2 page 394

" Once we have crossed the Arising and Passing Away (and
if we don't suddenly die or get severe brain damage due to
some unfortunate life circumstances), we shall enter insight
stages five through ten regardless of whether we want to. It
doesn't matter if we practice from this point on; once we
cross the A&P, we are in the Dark Night to some degree
and
become what is sometimes called a “Dark Night yogi”, or
simply “darknighter”, until we figure out how to get through
it. If we do get through it without getting to the first stage of
enlightenment, we will have to go through it again and
again until we do. I mean this in the most absolute terms. It
appears to be a hardwired part of human physiology as far
as I can tell. I have a very large and growing body of case
studies and a wealth of shared experiences
among
meditation friends and acquaintances to back this up, and I
am not alone. Tens of thousands of meditators have noticed
these stages in their own practice and countless teachers
have noticed them also.
As the meditation teacher Sean Pritchard says, some
skillful teachers will at least give meditators a heads-up
after the A&P that what might be coming next can be
challenging, and that on the other side of it is good stuff,
namely Equanimity. Even if they don't explicitly use thesemaps or specific stage labels, I will assert the odds are that
most practitioners will do much better if warned ahead of
time about what is about to happen after they cross the A&P. "
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 2:58 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 2:58 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
To give you the full story, I have done large amounts, hundreds of hours of each of positive psychology, gestalt therapy, hypnotherapy, lefkoe method, EMDR, energetic unblocking and Ho'oponopono prayer. Add in creative and exotic attempts at medication, ranging all the way from classic antipsychotics, through psychedelic microdosing, bioidentical hormones, even goddamn therapeutic frog venom called kambo.

NOTHING made the agonizing depression go away for more than a few days or hours, it ALWAYS returned.
Imagine investing 3000$ to learn to do self therapy, only to have ALL the progress you thought you made reverse entirely, leaving you in more despair than ever.

Sometimes in life, you can do everything right, and still fail. Sometimes you can do things wrong, and perceive yourself to be making progress.

Now what HAS worked is wet vipassana. If I do 1-2 hours of vipassana started from the 4th jhana, I can stay in equanimity and actually think and function.

This is why I'm worried for you. If you miss this point like I did, you stand to suffer needlessly.
Do the right thing, with the right method or tool, for the right reason.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 3:03 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 3:03 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
How do you know what I'm doing isn't enough? And even if it's not, why this that a problem for you?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 3:18 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 3:18 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
thanks for your concern but frankly this sounds more like a you problem.
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Aeon , modified 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 3:40 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/18/23 3:40 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 212 Join Date: 1/31/23 Recent Posts
Of course I don't know if it's enough. From what I gather, people hit stream entry spontaneously without ever meditating. For all I know, you could be such a person, and I do hope that is the case.
Chances are you are among the vast majority who needs a retreat of some sort, to attain stream entry and end the dark night.

Clearly it's not a problem to ME. It's your problem. Your dark night, you spiritual quest, all yours.
I only want you to not suffer like I did, and thus I take the time to tell you about the solution I have found. In my experience, this forum and MCTB is the only place you will be informed fully about the dark night. No psychologists, therapists or doctors will ever be able to offer you this perspective.

Could be it works differently for you. Could be you can solve the dark night in a different way. Who is to say there is only one way? Dhammarato talked about avoiding hindrances during vipassana meditation could have you skip the whole dark night. I want that to be true.

I think we are talking past each other at this point, and I feel like you don't really read what I write anyway.
Wish you all the best going forward.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 2/19/23 7:50 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 2/19/23 6:12 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
to give a somewhat proper reply to what you said:

Aeon ........
Clearly it's not a problem to ME. It's your problem. Your dark night, you spiritual quest, all yours. 

Great. We're on the same page there.

Aeon ........
I only want you to not suffer like I did

That sounds like your problem.

Aeon ........
I think we are talking past each other at this point, and I feel like you don't really read what I write anyway.

I read it, I just don't respond as you're just spewing advice at me that I'm already aware of, and/or didn't ask for/want/need.

Again, you wanting my suffering to end is your problem, not mine.

Advice is allways welcome if you're seeing something that I'm missing, but this ain't it.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/1/23 1:59 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/1/23 11:20 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
Haven't updated in a while since not that much interesting is going on. More DN stuff. Making some interesting progress into the emotions though. Anger and powerlessness I think are big ones in my ego structure and I'm realizing more and more that just feeling them (and others) purely without story is so key.

Meditation has fallen off due to freakouts and the need for control. Still, investigation into what's going on inside is still happening so it's better than nothing I suppose.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/2/23 3:42 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/2/23 3:42 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
I noticed yesterday after this realization into the anger and powerlessness that when I was outside there was no desire to control. There was this old momentum of wanting to control/change things, but there was no real desire to. Like there were no connection between the two (hearts desire and control). It was pretty nice.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/7/23 3:11 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/7/23 3:11 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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I think the weird left-side-of-my-body stuff may have been solved. It's only been a few hours, but feels like my body is more integrated and whole, as opposed to before. Seems to just have been a fear that I could relate back to when I had my A&P. I don't think it was actually related to any nadi stuff, rather some extreme states that came with my first encounter with fear stage.

Meditation isn't entirely back to what it was, but trying to sit whenever I'm not too overwhelmed.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/10/23 7:28 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/10/23 7:28 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
More DN stuff being dealt with. Been noticing alot of my energy seem to have a magnetic pull sort of? Not sure if it's like this or it's something else but I can feel energy wanting to align with east and west. Is this a thing or am I just imagining things?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 4:57 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 4:57 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Have had this feeling on and off the last few weeks that I can't really put my finger on. It's this sort of burning, bright white fire almost. It's very dysphoric, like it's the complete opposite of bliss. Thinking back it's been present to some degree for the last couple years. But more the last few weeks.

Meditation is back,not to a large degree, but I do sit.
Meaninglessness has also been present a lot lately, might be that I'm just tired, or burnt out, but could also be the other way around I suppose. Trying to get a lot of sleep and rest and eat well.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 8:15 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 8:15 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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A couple weeks ago I had a good cry, short but was able to access it at least. Today I was able to again. Have been waiting and hoping for this for a long time, and it's been a long time since I had before last week. Finally feels like I'm making some progress with my emotional health. I sort of feel like I have nothing to lose at this point, so why not just burn through stuff.
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A K D, modified 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 9:30 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 9:30 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Hello Nihila, I go through cycles weeks or months in length where there is contraction and then a spontaneous release or heart opening which generally involves a lot of tears and gratitude. It's bittersweet, but I think that this is a natural feedback loop of sorts: a way for our body/mind to recalibrate and release all of the pent up stress of life. I hope your cry left you feeling a bit more settled, open, loving, happy - the afterglow can be really lovely like clean air after a thunderstorm. Sounds like a healthy development emoticon
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 11:07 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/14/23 11:07 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Hi A K D,

Thank you, it is indeed bittersweet and well needed. I think it's been many years for me, hopefully not as long until next.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 1:20 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 1:20 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
Think I'm making some progress on the Nadi imbalance. I said a few posts back that I thought it wasn't related to the nadi's, but I now think it definitly is. Have been feeling this knot of joy/bliss in the left side of my throat for a good while, and I never thought much of it, as it would be almost outside of my neck but feeling into the joy has seemed to balance things. And reading more about the nadi's the left side is apparently related to the emotions and joy especially. Man I can't even begin to describe the suffering this imbalance has caused me. Emotions going haywire, combined with "powers" or whatever, emotions going into other people etc. It's really made me suicidal at times, feeling that I have no control over it. I guess that's kind of like what borderline is like. Man what a fucking trip life can be, sheesh.
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 4:40 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 4:40 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 2567 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Nihila, since you mentioned feeling suicidal -- are you getting the support you need?  
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 6:09 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 5:32 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
Not really, I mean for the normal muggle stuff I do, but for the esoteric stuff that I can't discuss with most people, that's kinda what bothers me the most whenever I'm feeling suicidal. Tried reaching out to Daniel but he's likely busy so I haven't gotten an answer yet.
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 8:29 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/26/23 8:29 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 2567 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Nihila . Think I'm making some progress on the Nadi imbalance. I said a few posts back that I thought it wasn't related to the nadi's, but I now think it definitly is. Have been feeling this knot of joy/bliss in the left side of my throat for a good while, and I never thought much of it, as it would be almost outside of my neck but feeling into the joy has seemed to balance things. And reading more about the nadi's the left side is apparently related to the emotions and joy especially. Man I can't even begin to describe the suffering this imbalance has caused me. Emotions going haywire, combined with "powers" or whatever, emotions going into other people etc. It's really made me suicidal at times, feeling that I have no control over it. I guess that's kind of like what borderline is like. Man what a fucking trip life can be, sheesh.
Is there a question you want to ask this forum about energies/powers/emotions?
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/27/23 3:13 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/27/23 3:13 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 351 Join Date: 1/19/23 Recent Posts
shargrol
Is there a question you want to ask this forum about energies/powers/emotions?

There are questions I'd like to ask, but I'd prefer if I could DM someone. Could I DM you perhaps? I might make a thread but I'd really love if I could DM someone with some experience.
shargrol, modified 1 Year ago at 3/27/23 6:15 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/27/23 6:09 AM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 2567 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
The problem is, I can't promise I'll have good answers, I've just had my own experiences. That's the benefit of posting more publically, you get feedback from others who have gone through something similar.

Remember, your post can still can be somewhat censored and not go into the detail you want to keep private. In fact, it's a really good skill to learn how to ask these sorts of sanitized questions --- that will be useful when you are asking teachers in more formal settings about practice. I don't recommend sharing private stuff with someone else until you know them really well. There are too many examples of cult-like teachers using private confessions to coerse/blackmail students.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Year ago at 3/27/23 1:16 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 3/27/23 1:16 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

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Sure, fair enough. Yeah, that's a good point. I don't plan on going into any detail, not yet anyways. I just felt it was esoteric enough that I wanted a second opinion before proceeding, or perhaps hoping to get some refferrals or pointers as all this is very new to me.

Anyways, I might post in the thread I made regarding powers already then. Appreciate your support and thoughtfulness.
Freya , modified 11 Months ago at 8/3/23 11:31 PM
Created 11 Months ago at 8/3/23 11:27 PM

RE: Nihila's Log

Posts: 64 Join Date: 8/15/21 Recent Posts
@freya You had kundalini phenomena, right? How did SE affect that? Would you happen to have any advice on an overactive Ida nadi, and how to heal it?
Hi I just saw this notification. 

Post SE I was able to sit in Clear Light (the most subtlest level of mind and what the aim of the practice of highest yoga Tantra is), within this experience clairsentience & extra sensory perception opened. Then the more fierce energy turned into the most beautiful dance - a force beyond me moved my body into a beautiful movement of dance, yoga & Qigong and many mudras. 

I try not to give advice as the meditator is usually the one who knows best but clearing the channels is classic - 9 point breathing, empty body and visualising Central Chanel meditations - get a Mayhayan teacher to show you. 
 
I wouldn’t advise insight until SE, for me post SE was a really intense time with the energy and still is. My journey hasn’t followed what is laid out in MCTB, I’ve seen some similarities, but my experience is different.  Good luck.

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