Training Perception?

Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 5/16/23 1:48 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 5/16/23 1:47 AM

Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I'm interested in practicing meditation alongside exercises in perception.

To be specific, I think it's quite easy to see that perception can be measured with 3 fundamental and independent components: scope, detail & freedom.
Scope regards the boundaries of perception. Detail regards the level of scrutiny. Freedom regards freedom from presumptions/assumptions with which a person may fool themselves, rather than confirm their facts through more rigorous means.

I'm fairly new to meditation, but I think that the two exercises (the exercise below + mindfulness) may synergize well. I was hoping some curious minds might help me explore this idea.
So, this is an exercise I've come up with: whilst you're walking around, observe your surroundings by finding a previously unnoticed object, scrutinizing it's details & identifying any assumptions made about that object. Start off making singular observations until you feel you can progress to connecting two observations at a time. Once you feel you've mastered connecting two observations at a time, move onto 3 and so on...

So, if you have the time, want a bit of fun or are just curious, why not try this with me for some time? I'd really appreciate seeing how other people find the exercise.
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Year ago at 5/16/23 7:13 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 5/16/23 7:13 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 1770 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Why not make a journal and report back to us how its going week by week so we all know?
Or did you want someone else to do that for you?
Good Luck,
​​​​​​​~D
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 5/17/23 12:53 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 5/17/23 12:53 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I'm more than happy to share my progress. I think it would be very helpful if multiple people tried & reported their progress.

So far, I've found the exercise (no connecting observations yet) does increase my awareness, which has led to my usual environments (walking around the local block, for example) to have a more novel & vivid feel, and has led to what I've interpreted to be a possible improvement in focus during meditation (a more novel & vivid feel, again). Otherwise, nothing else has been explicit enough for me to note.

I've been ill for the past few weeks, but I plan to continue with the exercise once I've fully recovered & begin progressing towards connecting observations. 
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 5/25/23 10:46 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 5/25/23 10:37 PM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
So, after being sick, my meditation technique had gotten worse. I've been practicing at least 30min per day, with yoga nidra after work.

I'm not sure if there is much I can say, but I am noticing progress again. I'm not sure if I'm at, behind or beyond where I was before I got sick. My meditation technique is arguably just behind.

Nonetheless, there are 3 things that seem to be altering my perception of reality:
1. Recognizing the "now"/"real" for that which it is. It is almost as if by recognizing the present & that my immediate surroundings are happening right now & are real, the very consideration of them as something to perceive makes it easier to increase my awareness.
2. As I have been applying with every breath, a subtle curiosity towards that which I'm perceiving and not making the assumption that I know what I am perceiving or will perceive (e.g., that every breath will be the same). When one removes this assumption, it feels as if the details start to appear in greater number on their own. Sometimes it feels difficult to do this, especially during meditation; other times, it feels easy. At times, even just reminding myself to be present helps with this, but I cannot be sure if this is because of some trained association.
3. Applying & developing the 3 fundamental components of reality does seem to help with meditation technique, although I cannot yet say if it is to a large extent. It has been getting easier to apply it to my surroundings & I suspect meditation & (1) & (2) that I've listed could be part of the explanation. 

It's difficult to provide very good analysis of my experience without risking making irresponsible misinterpretations. Indeed, one of the many challenges of the mind is its propensity to hallucinate information or disregard existing information in order to attain cohesion in it's mental model or some other agenda, consciously or subconsciously. Interestingly, in my meditation, I might be experiencing this frequently as it seems my mind is trying to build it's own model when my attention or will becomes fatigued or simply out of habit. So, I try to focus on the senses purely and not let my mind get distracted by it's own generated images or schema that represent that which I should be perceiving (e.g. focusing on the image of an expanding round mass representing the rising with the breath, rather than the tactile sensation of my skin moving against the shirt or the joints in my shoulders moving). 

Now, when I apply the components to my surroundings, I can do it faster, more frequently & I sometimes do it without thinking. I don't know at which point I should progress to connecting observations, but I prefer to be conservative for now with what success I believe I've been having & to keep observing changes as they have been occurring. In particular, environments seem more detailed, less familiar as I look at them in new ways & more interesting. I am more aware of the general shapes of objects & their positions in space.

I'm curious to see if this exercise might accelerate progression with meditation or bring about other effects. I'll keep you updated. 
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Pawel K, modified 1 Year ago at 6/1/23 2:04 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/1/23 2:04 PM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
All the so called "vipassana" techniques are forms of perception practices.
Most instructions are modified to not perceive what is but rather perceive specific things which induce specific qualities - and this inducing causes stronger changes in mind faster.
Imho it is silly as if I know what quality to induce (eg. its enough to do practice for short while to notice what qualities arise) its faster to do it directly and have better results with less effort. I mean such inducing should be done all day long and if you do it like that mind will continue it at night - then you get best bung for the buck.

Anyways, true Vipassana is very specific type of perception.
Practice you invented is good enough to hone mind skills which Vipassana needs.
To really be able to do proper Vipassana you also need to practice Shamatha.
Like in case of Vipassana people confused beginner practices for proper Shamatha. It is inducing qualities to keep mind focused and not focusing mind to get qualities.

At the beginning its good to practice these practices as they are described. It is however always bad idea to force oneself despite them feeling bad. The sooner person realizes what Vipassana/Shamatha are and start using them to make meditation pure pleasure the better.

BTW. Regarding perception training my personal recommendation is eyesight.
By eyesight I mean seeing better with less effort. It requires you to learn how to focus correctly. When the same focus is applied to rest of mind it causes similar improvements as in eyes - and its not just seeing sharper.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/2/23 3:50 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/2/23 3:48 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
My problem with meditation with my current understanding is that whilst it can help one to perceive truth, the perception of truth is not accompanied by knowing that which is false. Genuine understanding is only achieved through knowing that which is false and the nature by which this falseness arrives, so that one can isolate truth. Knowledge of truth through meditation is not gained through an assortment and arrangement of the facts, but through a change in one's state of consciousness which fails to provide the path by which ordinary consciousness can understand truth. Please feel totally free to disagree with me on this; I encourage the opportunity to develop understanding.

​​​​​​​
This exercise for perception is not about focusing on particular qualities, but increasing the total output of perception altogether. I'm not sure about Vipassana exactly, but focusing on particular qualities to change how one perceives the nature of reality does not equate to increasing perception of reality regardless of its nature and in the process determining its nature nonetheless.


I may be coming across as foolish, ignorant or narrow-minded. I concede that I don't know much about meditation and my opinions here are tentative and free to change and development. But, I am not here to tell others what to believe; I am here for dialogos.
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Pawel K, modified 1 Year ago at 6/2/23 10:44 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/2/23 10:44 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
This exercise for perception is not about focusing on particular qualities, but increasing the total output of perception altogether.

Didn't say it is.
I said typical vipassana practices are perception practices which are not even true to the goal of perceiving things as they are because of excessive induction of qualities (usually the so called "3C"). For something like Mahasi noting its more about act of noticing and then noticing 3C, not noticing aby other qualities.

Like for example we could define practice like Mahasi noting but say "notice how each sensation is permanent, pleasant and self" and you can be sure people would practice it like crazy if lots of people they listen to said to do it. Also would have the so called "awakening" but in this case their "THIS" (note: I use this term because I find it ridiculous as explanation for anything emoticon) would have different taste and characteristics. Imho even better - I like it better. Like when you eat hotdog and burger many times and prefer one over the other but elsewhere eat both from time to time in breaks from true food.

In fact each sensation is the same sensation - they are not regenerated anew each time in its entirety - which is insight people around these parts do not even know and I find it completely hilarious. Why they do not know is easy to tell: just run 3C noticing and see if these things come up.

 I'm not sure about Vipassana exactly, but focusing on particular qualities to change how one perceives the nature of reality does not equate to increasing perception of reality regardless of its nature and in the process determining its nature nonetheless.

Exactly my angle.
If anything inducing perception of qualities has its uses. It isn't even bad if you do not go too far in one direction and then cling to it like unenlightened fool.

My problem with meditation with my current understanding is that whilst it can help one to perceive truth, the perception of truth is not accompanied by knowing that which is false. Genuine understanding is only achieved through knowing that which is false and the nature by which this falseness arrives, so that one can isolate truth.

Imho one should not worry too much about falsehood, especially when still in sphere of unknowing.
As you accumulate views from multiple angles and can pinpoint exact places where given reasoning fails.
It is too easy to call something false when you have not enough data but what you have doesn't add up and then miss any true things about it or even create corelation in mind that anything related to it is false. Same goes for things we assume are true. In fact typical tendency of mind is to immediately segregate things as true and false just to avoid having too much stuff in your head. This tendency if go unchecked will prevent ever knowing what is really true and what is false and worldview will be very limited.

Having giant trees of knowledge you can just just like in quantum computer run thinking few times and if it most of the time (with specified threshold of certainty) says something is true or false then you can assume its your current viewpoint - and not if being true or not.

Knowledge of truth through meditation is not gained through an assortment and arrangement of the facts, but through a change in one's state of consciousness which fails to provide the path by which ordinary consciousness can understand truth. Please feel totally free to disagree with me on this; I encourage the opportunity to develop understanding.

Mind state and state of consciousness is literally visualizable, every aspect of it.

Most people fall in to fallacy of attaining state of consciousness and calling it some kind of truth - they usually do not understand single thing about how it works because it was never needed to know it. Why? Because they "attained it", usually by ascetic-like practices they went through because of emotional investment in any ad-hoc facts about it and then they call them as Truth with capital T.

In any way I am the same, just did different practices.
I however knew this would happen I would cling to my attainment and it did happen. Then I noticed it and went as far as with not clinging as to reconfigure my whole brain to not have it just to be able to get fresh perspective on the whole thing.

So I do not disagree.
I just notice that especially after having attainments it is incredibly rare to realize they are not ultimate Truth. And if anything this is exactly related to person's perception. The worse perception the more inclination to call any state of consciousness as some kind of ultimate Truth and then cling to it not even realizing clinging.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/2/23 8:55 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/2/23 8:55 PM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I hope you don't mind that my reply to you is mostly a series of questions.&nbsp;<br /><br />"Mind state and state of consciousness is literally visualizable, every aspect of it." Could you please clarify what you mean by this?<br /><br /><br />Also, do you think there are True qualities of reality? What should we even mean when we say 'quality'?<br /><br /><br />Can one see Ultimate Truth? Can they see it through the effects of meditation, and how? How do the qualities relate to ultimate truth?<br /><br /><br /><br />I currently understand truth to be only the absence of falsehood. I do not currently believe there can be another axiom from which other knowledge about truth can be derived. As a result of this, truth can only be known by identifying that which is false. What do you think of this?
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Pawel K, modified 1 Year ago at 6/3/23 2:18 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/3/23 2:18 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
"Mind state and state of consciousness is literally visualizable, every aspect of it." Could you please clarify what you mean by this?

What I always meant by this is we are bunch of single celled organisms which agreed to keep together and not let go. Our thinkin center brain creates consciousnesses which are just synchronized neurons - cells with ability to communicate with each-other well. How they do it is up to them really. If you have evolution proven way you are not gonna do too crazy stuff lightly - trying always ends with some kind of issues as anyone who did hard meditation can tell you emoticon

We neurons can agree that certain signals indicate we should restructure how this signaling is done and we should be able to follow directions. Imho all animals we use similar templates and especially mammals and especially humans (we are almost identical when it comes to some things) so if you know it you can literally reprogram your brain structurally. I have done it and reprogrammed affected by specific signaling parts of my higher brain (think in this specific case connections in white brain matter, not changing gray matter. tho there are ways to change it too) and did so to prove point to myself using what I could say someone else mind as template and overnight (maintenance period) changed from enlightened introvert to unenlightened jhana-less extrovert. Not claiming copying someone mind verbatim but merely being able to reprogram my mind. What I did was itself extremely stupid but I haven't read about it anywhere so I felt someone has to take one for the team... even if it kinda only serves to tickle my (re-configured) ego ;)

Rather ad hoc make arbitrary changes just because one can do it it is useful to reprogram brain bit by bit using visualized signaling as reference - there are signals which do not change markers on how connections flow naturally but loosen them and allow putting temporary markers. It is possible to make real-time changes in how neurons react within especially small clumps of neurons which are otherwise doing something else but borrowing them to make new consciousnesses isn't such a big deal. When you nail signaling there and it proves valid in things these neurons normally do mind is confident to move it elsewhere - to whole mind. And if that proves successful mind is more ready to reconfigure itself for good. If it knows how to program its markers for persistent mind states. Always abused this ability because it made everything so much easier. Practice was about nailing things in smaller consciousnesses without too much baggage for which I could allocate all the time during the day. Then I would not worry about having more tangible results. Just hitting right mind state for reconfiguration would trigger reconfiguration and there, changes 'attained'.

Mind states of people end up having at say 4th path (its point when person lowers learning rates in brain to lock 'attainment') are really combination of what they managed to visualize. If it is consciously instructing neurons knowing it is instructing neurons to change their markers or effects of doing practices doesn't change this whole mechanism. In fact people who are really thick headed when it comes to learning rates can spend deceased on cushion and have little to no changes in baseline mind configuration. This learning rate and experiences where you reconfigure mind can be figured out by experimentation. It has to be to make them easier to find to other people and even for ourselves to not forget it. Typically people do not mention these things because they just take these things are feeling of how practice feels like before major changes and do not put too much attention to these experiences/qualities.

Also, do you think there are True qualities of reality? What should we even mean when we say 'quality'?

The so called True with capital T qualities Buddha laid off for us are true and pragmatic but by itself neither completely true nor completely pragmatic.

Three Characteristics teachings were Buddha's attempt at leading people to Nibbana. They are as True as anti-3C I mentioned before are. It is really the same for all aspects of reality. Not to remove from wisdom of people who invented methods to attain what people attain with 3C imho what people think when they think Enlightenment before filling their mind with dogma (and most often even after) is more in-line with anti-3C. From what I can say e.g. Adwajta Vedanta monks are more aware of both Enlightenments than Buddhists are. I guess it is the result of conceit of the latter ones - unjustified pride of being on the side of the better teachings, just on basis of them being more popular.

Can one see Ultimate Truth?

That Samsara is our home and is amazing and anyone wanting to escape it has mistaken their desire for vacation with need for liberation?
Yeah, for sure, I am spiritually already an adult.
Liberation/relief is itself ultimately a fetter. It is to be seen through and become dispassionate for. Of course that doesn't mean person should remain unliberated. Desiring liberation is preventing it and in more ways people think it ever could.

I currently understand truth to be only the absence of falsehood. I do not currently believe there can be another axiom from which other knowledge about truth can be derived. As a result of this, truth can only be known by identifying that which is false. What do you think of this?

Now not sure if previous answer makes sense vs what you asked... thought you asked about like Truth, less wouldn't satisfy you emoticon

Questions when they are not defined in accordance with natures of things they relate to can demand to be clarified in terms of if they are true or false. If not defined correctly it might be they are both true and false and thusly they should be contemplated until you define your questions better. And yet even having high certainty one should still contemplate questions as if they were both true and false because ignorance is easy to creep in otherwise.

The more important and pragmatic thing than answering boolean questions is making mind not as restless when faced with such questions and with it allow oneself time to carefully analyze all facts and even when making conclusions re-analyze them and not cling to previous answers. If you cling to your truth/falsehood and facts which lower certainty arise it causes dukkha. Not only dukkha but it disallows getting both valid answers and valid questions. Also things can seem to be opposite to conclusions before analyzing them and then confirm certainty - often increase certainty in answers to some questions while adding uncertainty in others - again not being clearheaded about nature of your answers can disallow to build right kind of certainty just because things which can affect things mind clings to are immediately rejected.

In any way imho declaring things as true or false should not be taken lightly and mind ready to re-evaluate its conclusions on moment's notice. If thinking caused dukkha then fix thinking and figure out how to do it even better so its pleasant to process data.

BTW. Here I gave the same answer few time with different words and it is the same as in previous post. Dropping false things quickly is just mind with dukkha way to optimize what it thinks about seeing thinking as precious resource because not a lot of it can be performed. Optimize how brains do thinking and desire to have tangible answers will cease. Now it might seem I have pretty high confidence level in dharma - high confidence is not an issue, trying to force it without much valid insights and clinging to having it no matter what as to ignore blunders mind does to keep itself certain is an issue. Also a fetter and one which is hardest to overcome completely - in fact it always demand treating it as not-yet removed.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/3/23 11:02 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/3/23 11:02 PM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I'm having some difficulty understanding all your writing, personally. You seem to have a perspective quite unique to that of which I've encountered before, so I want to understand what you're saying as much as possible. Although, I should always want to understand what anyone is saying as much as possible if my aim is communication


​​​​​​​If you are like me, you develop a dense internal organization of ideas just by your nature. This is Ti in Jungian terms, not that I deem it a valid construct. Nonetheless, if you are like this, I believe you might be able to help me understand your perspective if you can outline the hierarchical organization of your ideas (axioms, rules of inference, etc.) Do you think you could explain the relevant parts of your ontology, so to speak, in this way?
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/9/23 2:52 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/9/23 2:50 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
It has now been a little while since my last update.

Since then, I found my meditation sessions were too long & this had caused me to backtrack in technique. So after stopping 45min, I was doing 10-15min a session & now doing 20min again. I wonder if it is ever wise just to stop a session if it isn't going well & you're only creating bad habits. I'm more confident now that the perception exercise does benefit meditation, as long as you do it & meditation together consistently & with good technique.

I have some suspicion that the 3 characteristics help to enhance certain aspects of development related to at least some part of truth, but I haven't yet investigated their metaphysical grounding.

I am much more away of the space that objects around me occupy & their movements. I find it much easier to direct my attention towards my surroundings. I do not get as much novelty as before, but the novelty largely seems related to how well I practice removing the assumption that a thing will be the same as it previously was (which seems related to impermanence). The novelty seems stronger if I can practice this removal whilst watching the breath during meditation.

It doesn't feel like I'm at the point I was before I got sick. At the same time, I may be looking into the past with rose-colored glasses. I think I see why people prefer to meditate 20min at a time, based on what I've heard. It seems to fit comfortably in terms of effect & difficulty. I would like to progress to 30min, but I don't want to backtrack again.

I'm not sure how effective the perception exercise is in improving the first component of perception - scope. I spend most of the time on the second 2 components. I might have to consider putting less effort into the second 2 components in order to balance the 3 components by performing the exercise more rapidly.

I currently find that after 5 applications of the exercise (5 times through each component), I experience sufficient fatigue to feel the need to stop. This is still quite close to where I was originally. It might be due to the backtracking in meditation or inconsistency or balancing of components or I need to push to 6.

​​​​​​​Finally, my last observation is that I perform the exercise subconsciously to a lower degree of performance, which makes things much more pleasurable as I move around. A concern I have is that I'm only practicing the components to my immediate sensory surroundings, which may only lead to an improvement in sensory awareness. I think it is worth pursuing the connection of observations to possibly go into a more abstract realm of awareness, but there I am still restricted my immediate surroundings under these parameters of the exercise.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/9/23 9:39 PM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/9/23 9:36 PM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
A quick update after yesterday. So, I didn't do the perception exercise for 2 days as rest & after a 30 minute mindfulness outside in the morning, I felt it was quite easy to do 6 iterations.

I see a stronger connection now between impermanence & removing the assumption of 'stasis', so to speak. I think when one practices this to the point of understanding the truth of it, i.e., validating it, then maybe seeing 'impermanence' is the effect. It also seems to possibly increase one's scope naturally... not sure... The only trouble i have is that I feel I am forcing the removal of the assumption sometimes.

I'm quite confident that (a) doing the exercise immediately after meditation makes it easier & (b) it enhances the effects of meditation regarding how you perceive your immediate surroundings, although the effects are temporary.

Seeing things as 'now'/'real' also seems to help enhance the novelty related to impermanence & removing the assumption of 'stasis'. I think I need to practice doing this & also practicing mindfulness throughout the day to some level, to help achieve the 'now'/'real' sensation & possibly improve 'impermanence' - assuming this is a correct interpretation.

Finally, I think doing 20min regularly, with 30min every now and then is a good idea for me. 30min feels better than 20min, but I don't think I'm ready to do it regularly.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/19/23 7:41 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/19/23 7:41 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I've been consistent, meditating twice every day from 10-30min per session. I think I'm stronger on the observation that meditation helps the perception exercise, and the perception exercise helps meditation.

Not really much progress since my last post. Doing 6 iterations now. Taking break days for the perception exercise but not meditation, to avoid fatigue building up.

Sleep is proving extremely essential for this experiment.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/24/23 8:12 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/24/23 8:12 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I've been fairly busy as of late; not much time to meditate & my focus isn't the same.

I think I've been too eager to try to remove assumptions that I've been ignoring the first necessary basis upon which an object attains existence in one's perception. I was reluctant to follow the paths precisely based on what I consider to be an incompleteness of what meditation can achieve. I am still reluctant, but now have a better sense of what the first paths provide & think that they are consistent with my 'conception' of reality.

I'll see how that goes & report back later
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 2:15 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 2:15 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
"Mind state and state of consciousness is literally visualizable, every aspect of it." Could you please clarify what you mean by this?

What I always meant by this is we are bunch of single celled organisms which agreed to keep together and not let go. Our thinkin center brain creates consciousnesses which are just synchronized neurons - cells with ability to communicate with each-other well. How they do it is up to them really. If you have evolution proven way you are not gonna do too crazy stuff lightly - trying always ends with some kind of issues as anyone who did hard meditation can tell you emoticon

We neurons can agree that certain signals indicate we should restructure how this signaling is done and we should be able to follow directions. Imho all animals we use similar templates and especially mammals and especially humans (we are almost identical when it comes to some things) so if you know it you can literally reprogram your brain structurally. I have done it and reprogrammed affected by specific signaling parts of my higher brain (think in this specific case connections in white brain matter, not changing gray matter. tho there are ways to change it too) and did so to prove point to myself using what I could say someone else mind as template and overnight (maintenance period) changed from enlightened introvert to unenlightened jhana-less extrovert. Not claiming copying someone mind verbatim but merely being able to reprogram my mind. What I did was itself extremely stupid but I haven't read about it anywhere so I felt someone has to take one for the team... even if it kinda only serves to tickle my (re-configured) ego ;)

Rather ad hoc make arbitrary changes just because one can do it it is useful to reprogram brain bit by bit using visualized signaling as reference - there are signals which do not change markers on how connections flow naturally but loosen them and allow putting temporary markers. It is possible to make real-time changes in how neurons react within especially small clumps of neurons which are otherwise doing something else but borrowing them to make new consciousnesses isn't such a big deal. When you nail signaling there and it proves valid in things these neurons normally do mind is confident to move it elsewhere - to whole mind. And if that proves successful mind is more ready to reconfigure itself for good. If it knows how to program its markers for persistent mind states. Always abused this ability because it made everything so much easier. Practice was about nailing things in smaller consciousnesses without too much baggage for which I could allocate all the time during the day. Then I would not worry about having more tangible results. Just hitting right mind state for reconfiguration would trigger reconfiguration and there, changes 'attained'.

Mind states of people end up having at say 4th path (its point when person lowers learning rates in brain to lock 'attainment') are really combination of what they managed to visualize. If it is consciously instructing neurons knowing it is instructing neurons to change their markers or effects of doing practices doesn't change this whole mechanism. In fact people who are really thick headed when it comes to learning rates can spend deceased on cushion and have little to no changes in baseline mind configuration. This learning rate and experiences where you reconfigure mind can be figured out by experimentation. It has to be to make them easier to find to other people and even for ourselves to not forget it. Typically people do not mention these things because they just take these things are feeling of how practice feels like before major changes and do not put too much attention to these experiences/qualities.

Also, do you think there are True qualities of reality? What should we even mean when we say 'quality'?

The so called True with capital T qualities Buddha laid off for us are true and pragmatic but by itself neither completely true nor completely pragmatic.

Three Characteristics teachings were Buddha's attempt at leading people to Nibbana. They are as True as anti-3C I mentioned before are. It is really the same for all aspects of reality. Not to remove from wisdom of people who invented methods to attain what people attain with 3C imho what people think when they think Enlightenment before filling their mind with dogma (and most often even after) is more in-line with anti-3C. From what I can say e.g. Adwajta Vedanta monks are more aware of both Enlightenments than Buddhists are. I guess it is the result of conceit of the latter ones - unjustified pride of being on the side of the better teachings, just on basis of them being more popular.

Can one see Ultimate Truth?

That Samsara is our home and is amazing and anyone wanting to escape it has mistaken their desire for vacation with need for liberation?
Yeah, for sure, I am spiritually already an adult.
Liberation/relief is itself ultimately a fetter. It is to be seen through and become dispassionate for. Of course that doesn't mean person should remain unliberated. Desiring liberation is preventing it and in more ways people think it ever could.

I currently understand truth to be only the absence of falsehood. I do not currently believe there can be another axiom from which other knowledge about truth can be derived. As a result of this, truth can only be known by identifying that which is false. What do you think of this?

Now not sure if previous answer makes sense vs what you asked... thought you asked about like Truth, less wouldn't satisfy you emoticon

Questions when they are not defined in accordance with natures of things they relate to can demand to be clarified in terms of if they are true or false. If not defined correctly it might be they are both true and false and thusly they should be contemplated until you define your questions better. And yet even having high certainty one should still contemplate questions as if they were both true and false because ignorance is easy to creep in otherwise.

The more important and pragmatic thing than answering boolean questions is making mind not as restless when faced with such questions and with it allow oneself time to carefully analyze all facts and even when making conclusions re-analyze them and not cling to previous answers. If you cling to your truth/falsehood and facts which lower certainty arise it causes dukkha. Not only dukkha but it disallows getting both valid answers and valid questions. Also things can seem to be opposite to conclusions before analyzing them and then confirm certainty - often increase certainty in answers to some questions while adding uncertainty in others - again not being clearheaded about nature of your answers can disallow to build right kind of certainty just because things which can affect things mind clings to are immediately rejected.

In any way imho declaring things as true or false should not be taken lightly and mind ready to re-evaluate its conclusions on moment's notice. If thinking caused dukkha then fix thinking and figure out how to do it even better so its pleasant to process data.

BTW. Here I gave the same answer few time with different words and it is the same as in previous post. Dropping false things quickly is just mind with dukkha way to optimize what it thinks about seeing thinking as precious resource because not a lot of it can be performed. Optimize how brains do thinking and desire to have tangible answers will cease. Now it might seem I have pretty high confidence level in dharma - high confidence is not an issue, trying to force it without much valid insights and clinging to having it no matter what as to ignore blunders mind does to keep itself certain is an issue. Also a fetter and one which is hardest to overcome completely - in fact it always demand treating it as not-yet removed.
So you can visualize the structure of your own hardware & in doing so, reconfigure it? How do you sense your own hardware? Do you simply look for markers? Is this something you could always do?

How much control do you have over this process?

My own worldview doesn't disagree with this, necessarily, as it is not something I have thought about in depth; however, I think it may prove to be a challenge to my worldview. I operate more on the intuition that the mind shapes the brain, rather than that the brain shapes the mind - though neither way, 100%. In this way, I don't see reconfiguration of literal neurons as a logical way to truly improve the mind as a cognitive or a priori 'structure'. Maybe it is consistent with my worldview, if you consider the brain as a boundary algebra of the mind, like Venn Diagrams or George Spencer Brown's Laws of Form. This would make sense if you believe what you might call a metaphysical 'superstition' that the universe has a structure very similar to a brain and is a boundary algebra. 
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 3:09 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 3:09 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
Focusing on just mind wandering, I think I saw some improvements after just one sessions (post-meditation). I was too eager before. 

Would I be right in saying that overcoming dullness requires longer sessions?
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 7:18 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 4:44 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
So, I have been listening to the TMI audiobook on youtube. Today I have done 2 30min sessions just focusing on stage 2. Many of the phenomonelogical effects that were fading started coming back today. I think longer & more humble sessions will help me progress.

Many thoughts have occurred to me as a result of listening to the audiobook & seeing the correspondence between the perception exercise and concentration meditation. Connecting observations named as a way to overcome strong dullness seemed to have hit some key in my mind.

I should note that my aim here is to reconcile certain metaphysical ideas from other sources with that of buddhism, to reach an understanding of how they interact & the underlying principles. The perception exercise is something I've devised, perhaps very 'amateurishly', to help me with this. 

So, I think working with one observation helps one progress with stage 2. Connecting observations helps reduce strong dullness. So maybe, meditation and the perception exercise have a synergy that helps each one and the practitioner of each to progress faster in each one. Intuitively, this is not a surprising correspondence. So, I now have the view that - maybe / hypothetical - concentration meditation creates focus, vipassana & the 3C direct attention to see through certain illusions, but the perception exercise is applied to see through illusion altogether & understand what the illusions consist of. Focus helps with this. So, I should start looking into practicing insight meditation.

Then, a couple ideas I want to note down on how to improve progress with the perception exercise. 1. maybe it isn't enough to practice with sensory environment, but to apply to actual problems & situations relevant to your life - i.e. apply it somewhat practically; 2. maybe focus on attaining accuracy when doing the perception exercise & being accurate throughout the day (another opportunity to apply the perception exercise); 3. Recognizing how inaccuracies arise from failures to perceive in one of the 3 fundamental ways to a sufficient degree

My thoughts on how accuracy relates to my worldview will need some time to develop.


*P.S. Ni Nurta, I didn't put this into an edit of my previous post in case you don't notice the edit: What do you think of the progression from a pattern-based model of reality to a higher level in which principles are identified at the heart of patterns? I say this because you seem fairly preoccupied with patterns
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Pawel K, modified 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 8:24 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/25/23 8:24 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
How do you sense your own hardware?

I call my method as "touch visualization" - basics can be found in https://www.scribd.com/document/56072917/New-Energy-Ways-NEW-Manual
From what I remember from two decades ago it was about some energy but it is really about improving connections between consciousnesses to pass visualized touch. I guess the name "touch visualization" was from there but it might be how I called that.

To sense something in your mind you need to have exchanges with it - in this case touch it.
The what and how you touch affects the results. To simplify it in my mind I think of "qualities" eg. 2nd jhana has very specific blend of qualities of piti and sukha and touching part of mind with this quality makes it shift to 2nd jhana. This is useless simplification but simple techniques can be used to get hang of it.

Imho good practice target is you hand. First meditate on hand to really touch all parts of it, be able to move your awareness through each finger and physical detail of it feeling pressure moving along with your awareness until this feels totally natural. The awareness can be thought of being able to touch your hand - you experience it as pressure - touch.

Inducing jhana - it is about touching hand with jhana. It might not be always so straightforward as to just touch hand with jhanic awareness. For one you need to have your awareness have given jhana and it needs to not be overpowered by hands current experience. What worked for me was assuming this: jhana is already there in my hand and I just need to find other experience of hand than is jhanic. At this stage it is imho best to forego specific details about 2nd jhana and just try to find any jhanic experience of hand. This is because jhana-to-jhana shifts are way easier than non-jhana to any jhana and non-jhana to specific higher jhana are the hardest. Therefore when you find 'jhanic' experience the 2nd jhana experience will be easier to nail down.

So you touch hand with visualized touch and if its distinctly non-jhanic (read normal feeling) then you shifts your focus a little in some direction trying to find the jhanic experience. Not trying to make current non-jhanic experience become jhanic but find different experience of hand which is jhanic.

Is this something you could always do?

Nope.
I mean basics of visualized touch are pretty straightforward but it requires going through your whole body to make it sensitive and respond to visualized touch.
Inducing specific qualities like jhanas is more nuanced as I described. It gets much easier from the kind of 'no mind' states where you do not have 'normal' body experiences. It is more complicated... but also it is all touchy feely method so while complicated it is just something to have fun discovering.

So you can visualize the structure of your own hardware & in doing so, reconfigure it?

With right concentration and qualities and clear communication as to what structure it is possible to reconfigure structure in one swoop during the night - which is something I tested. I screwed my brain and had to work my way through to what resembles my 'normality' which I still didn't manage to fully do since 2020 when experiment took place. I am kinda more interested in my methods and models than my attainments so I lost them to prove the point to myself. No biggie though, insight I still had and having insight getting nice mind states is no issue emoticon

Otherwise small persistent corrections are best way forward mixed with other practices to steer mind on good tracks. Also there are many ways to approximate visualized experiences without making persistent changes and rely on brain self-optimizing itself. Like if you visualize given configuration in temporal fashion then eventually connections will be created and neurons will move if necessary for given configuration be more optimal to what you do.

There are touch qualities to ease applying these temporal configuration changes. It doesn't feel like something is moving inside your brain but more that signals go from place to place through other places. Repeats stimuli of this kind leads to reduction of intermediate steps. 

Do you simply look for markers?

Qualities which arise when 'touching' part of mind can be thought of markers.
Of interest are any qualities of blockades - when you cannot continuously move through part of body which are of different types. Usually some kind of dullness but can also be aversion and even strong tastes which can at times be pleasant when you try to push though but still won't let you though. That NEW pdf describes these.

Otherwise other types of markers if you will are just normal qualities which arise. For example all nanas have specific qualities. It isn't that different to normal vipassana/noting which is itself different way to 'touch' experiences.

How much control do you have over this process?

Moving neurons?
If my concentration is stellar it feels real-time. They kinda cannot move but if they disconnect which causes strange click-like sensations they then can move very slowly and then when they settle it feels like they connect. No need to do it in real time though. Clear instructions is what seems to do the job.

This is what seems like single neuron moving.
If that sounds totally fake - I am not sure it isn't. I certainly have skills to visualize all these effects.

The only hint of realness is permanence of effects of such operations. If you move neuron which you feel communicate something between parts of mind then this communication won't happen. It will also feel much more significant than merely attempting to suppress activity on said neuron/node.

My own worldview doesn't disagree with this, necessarily, as it is not something I have thought about in depth; however, I think it may prove to be a challenge to my worldview. I operate more on the intuition that the mind shapes the brain, rather than that the brain shapes the mind - though neither way, 100%. In this way, I don't see reconfiguration of literal neurons as a logical way to truly improve the mind as a cognitive or a priori 'structure'. Maybe it is consistent with my worldview, if you consider the brain as a boundary algebra of the mind, like Venn Diagrams or George Spencer Brown's Laws of Form.

Imho mind is an emergent phenomena from structure. It doesn't need to be only physical though.

The effort in the practice is not willy-willy reconfiguring neurons but discovering mind and improving it. Same as any practice really and imho other meditation practices are still very useful. Some aspects of them can be skipped and/or not relied on for everything. Like for example at 3rd path rather than going through bazillion fruitions handling found issues one by one as they arise.

This would make sense if you believe what you might call a metaphysical 'superstition' that the universe has a structure very similar to a brain and is a boundary algebra.

Imho visualized touch is compatible with the universe.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 6/26/23 3:59 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 6/26/23 3:59 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta
How do you sense your own hardware?

I call my method as "touch visualization" - basics can be found in https://www.scribd.com/document/56072917/New-Energy-Ways-NEW-Manual
From what I remember from two decades ago it was about some energy but it is really about improving connections between consciousnesses to pass visualized touch. I guess the name "touch visualization" was from there but it might be how I called that.

To sense something in your mind you need to have exchanges with it - in this case touch it.
The what and how you touch affects the results. To simplify it in my mind I think of "qualities" eg. 2nd jhana has very specific blend of qualities of piti and sukha and touching part of mind with this quality makes it shift to 2nd jhana. This is useless simplification but simple techniques can be used to get hang of it.

Imho good practice target is you hand. First meditate on hand to really touch all parts of it, be able to move your awareness through each finger and physical detail of it feeling pressure moving along with your awareness until this feels totally natural. The awareness can be thought of being able to touch your hand - you experience it as pressure - touch.

Inducing jhana - it is about touching hand with jhana. It might not be always so straightforward as to just touch hand with jhanic awareness. For one you need to have your awareness have given jhana and it needs to not be overpowered by hands current experience. What worked for me was assuming this: jhana is already there in my hand and I just need to find other experience of hand than is jhanic. At this stage it is imho best to forego specific details about 2nd jhana and just try to find any jhanic experience of hand. This is because jhana-to-jhana shifts are way easier than non-jhana to any jhana and non-jhana to specific higher jhana are the hardest. Therefore when you find 'jhanic' experience the 2nd jhana experience will be easier to nail down.

So you touch hand with visualized touch and if its distinctly non-jhanic (read normal feeling) then you shifts your focus a little in some direction trying to find the jhanic experience. Not trying to make current non-jhanic experience become jhanic but find different experience of hand which is jhanic.

Is this something you could always do?

Nope.
I mean basics of visualized touch are pretty straightforward but it requires going through your whole body to make it sensitive and respond to visualized touch.
Inducing specific qualities like jhanas is more nuanced as I described. It gets much easier from the kind of 'no mind' states where you do not have 'normal' body experiences. It is more complicated... but also it is all touchy feely method so while complicated it is just something to have fun discovering.

So you can visualize the structure of your own hardware & in doing so, reconfigure it?

With right concentration and qualities and clear communication as to what structure it is possible to reconfigure structure in one swoop during the night - which is something I tested. I screwed my brain and had to work my way through to what resembles my 'normality' which I still didn't manage to fully do since 2020 when experiment took place. I am kinda more interested in my methods and models than my attainments so I lost them to prove the point to myself. No biggie though, insight I still had and having insight getting nice mind states is no issue emoticon

Otherwise small persistent corrections are best way forward mixed with other practices to steer mind on good tracks. Also there are many ways to approximate visualized experiences without making persistent changes and rely on brain self-optimizing itself. Like if you visualize given configuration in temporal fashion then eventually connections will be created and neurons will move if necessary for given configuration be more optimal to what you do.

There are touch qualities to ease applying these temporal configuration changes. It doesn't feel like something is moving inside your brain but more that signals go from place to place through other places. Repeats stimuli of this kind leads to reduction of intermediate steps. 

Do you simply look for markers?

Qualities which arise when 'touching' part of mind can be thought of markers.
Of interest are any qualities of blockades - when you cannot continuously move through part of body which are of different types. Usually some kind of dullness but can also be aversion and even strong tastes which can at times be pleasant when you try to push though but still won't let you though. That NEW pdf describes these.

Otherwise other types of markers if you will are just normal qualities which arise. For example all nanas have specific qualities. It isn't that different to normal vipassana/noting which is itself different way to 'touch' experiences.

How much control do you have over this process?

Moving neurons?
If my concentration is stellar it feels real-time. They kinda cannot move but if they disconnect which causes strange click-like sensations they then can move very slowly and then when they settle it feels like they connect. No need to do it in real time though. Clear instructions is what seems to do the job.

This is what seems like single neuron moving.
If that sounds totally fake - I am not sure it isn't. I certainly have skills to visualize all these effects.

The only hint of realness is permanence of effects of such operations. If you move neuron which you feel communicate something between parts of mind then this communication won't happen. It will also feel much more significant than merely attempting to suppress activity on said neuron/node.

My own worldview doesn't disagree with this, necessarily, as it is not something I have thought about in depth; however, I think it may prove to be a challenge to my worldview. I operate more on the intuition that the mind shapes the brain, rather than that the brain shapes the mind - though neither way, 100%. In this way, I don't see reconfiguration of literal neurons as a logical way to truly improve the mind as a cognitive or a priori 'structure'. Maybe it is consistent with my worldview, if you consider the brain as a boundary algebra of the mind, like Venn Diagrams or George Spencer Brown's Laws of Form.

Imho mind is an emergent phenomena from structure. It doesn't need to be only physical though.

The effort in the practice is not willy-willy reconfiguring neurons but discovering mind and improving it. Same as any practice really and imho other meditation practices are still very useful. Some aspects of them can be skipped and/or not relied on for everything. Like for example at 3rd path rather than going through bazillion fruitions handling found issues one by one as they arise.

This would make sense if you believe what you might call a metaphysical 'superstition' that the universe has a structure very similar to a brain and is a boundary algebra.

Imho visualized touch is compatible with the universe.

Interesting!! What would you say is the purpose & effect of touch visualization?
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 7/9/23 1:09 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 7/9/23 12:45 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
I have made some meaningful progress since my last update.
I decided about 2 weeks ago to attempt to do 10 iterations of perception (I'm going to refer to the 3 components as this for now), 5 days a week. I would do this for ~4 weeks / a month, then look at my progress.

I've been meditating 2-4 hours daily for a while now, which has led to significant progress. I am slowly meandering the path towards greater concentration. I can't say exactly what stage I am at, as I find myself applying techniques from many stages in a level of experimentation, but I am confident that I am well past stage 2 now, most of the time. Practicing longer meditation whilst not having amazing technique, I believe, has been beneficial, as it has shown me a vast variety of experiences thus far, helping me slowly progress with what I can only say is a feeling of satisfication at this point.

One thing I guess I have been struggling with is the bombardment of intellectual insights that has been occurring. I make a voice memo of the insight, but find it hard to get back to practice. Today, eventually I reasoned upto the conclusion that it would be more beneficial in the long run to let go of intellectual insights during the practice.

As for the perception exercise, I am wanting to adjust it. This goes against my original commitment to a degree, but I believe my understanding of it has developed & in so doing, illuminated a better alternative method. Originally, I would randomly select an object in my environment to carefully inspect. Then, as this was an exercise I found most convenient to do whilst walking, I would start recognizing assumptions for some time after the object was no longer within my field of view. However, if one applies this exercise to one's environment, allowing the re-examination of an object, or some feature of it potentially not examined carefully enough / not considered for examination (which is usually the case), then they might be losing one of the benefits of the exercise.

Here's an example: You look at a building & you examine the features of the building as much as you can. Let's say the building is at a distance, so you realize you had made assumption that all the windows would be the same size/shape. Your scope of attention then increases to include this feature, and you then inspect the feature to find something that was previously missed (maybe one window was larger than the rest, or not even a window!). This process even seems to have some resemblance to the process by which one can find a pattern in a problem (an anecdote based on vague & intuitive recollection). Patterns are a specific set of relationships between percepts of abstract separation and proximity that can help the observer determine relevance of new observations with respect to the problem. In some ways, socratic questioning can operate similarly in making you explore something again. The only problem is when the person you question by means of re-examining that taken for granted has taken something for granted & doesn't want to risk detaching themselves from it emoticon

Nonetheless, I have found meditation to elicit greater ease in the application of perception with these principles. It is not surprising. I look forward to reaching access concentration at some point in the future, so that I can begin to understand how insight meditation works & see if that is beneficial to this exercise, also.
Mind Body Spirit, modified 1 Year ago at 8/19/23 4:40 AM
Created 1 Year ago at 8/19/23 4:39 AM

RE: Training Perception?

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/28/23 Recent Posts
Life got extremely busy, but I did commit to the exercise for exactly one month. It's not much, but I definitely saw myself applying the general techniques outside of the practice & to great benefit. It's been a while since I stopped, but now after a break, I feel I can see some fairly categorical differences from when I was practicing versus now. I intend to start this experiment again in about a week and based on what seemed to be progress with the one month experiment, I will try to go for 3 months this time. Of course, I'd like to do more than 3 months, but I'm setting this goal for now.

​​​​​​​The effects are quite distinct from meditation, but they have a powerful synergy - each benefitting the other. I'm looking forward to round 2.

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