Help with higher paths. Please - Discussion
BTW - this is not the end of practice. It's a juncture and creates new opportuinities for further realization - deepening, actually. The path seemingly has no "end," probably because... human beings.
Here is the quote - this is worth ruminating and taking on the cusion ; there is no magic text that will make you see what you want to see just because of reading it 
:
:There are various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, yet the divisionlessness of this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects.
Call it True Self. Call it no-self. Regardless, it is happening, as it always has and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. Though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur.
And this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing.
So look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception.
Spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception.
But with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish.
... The common way of looking at this is that there are zillions of sensations but we can only comprehend a limited number of them.
Except that perspective actually misses a really essential point that is strangely obvious once you think about it and yet also quite slippery, given how we are so used to not seeing things this way, or so we think.
That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.
We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves), but we actually believe that this secondary impression, this echo, this stand-in, is actually the awareness, the comprehension, when it is actually just a secondary effect from the first cause, that being the first sensation that the second sensation follows.
Said another way:
All of the sensations know themselves as and when and where they are, always have, always will, couldn't be any other way. Awareness and phenomena just always are not in a 1:1 ratio, they are actually just the same thing.
When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known.
So, just let the field in all of its richness speak for itself, including the small, central, limited copying process, and, seen thusly, the knot of perception that doesn't realize that the things already happened and already knew themselves will eventually and perhaps in stages shift to the whole thing knowing itself directly, as it actually always has but just somehow failed to know that at the level that makes the difference.
I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear sensate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight.
Dukkha is a power hog only because it fails to realize that the work was already done, that phenomena already knew themselves naturally, and so it is when that overcompensation stops that the whole thing fully knows that it shines on its own without having to do anything.
Call it True Self. Call it no-self. Regardless, it is happening, as it always has and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. Though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur.
And this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing.
So look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception.
Spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception.
But with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish.
... The common way of looking at this is that there are zillions of sensations but we can only comprehend a limited number of them.
Except that perspective actually misses a really essential point that is strangely obvious once you think about it and yet also quite slippery, given how we are so used to not seeing things this way, or so we think.
That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it.
We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves), but we actually believe that this secondary impression, this echo, this stand-in, is actually the awareness, the comprehension, when it is actually just a secondary effect from the first cause, that being the first sensation that the second sensation follows.
Said another way:
All of the sensations know themselves as and when and where they are, always have, always will, couldn't be any other way. Awareness and phenomena just always are not in a 1:1 ratio, they are actually just the same thing.
When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known.
So, just let the field in all of its richness speak for itself, including the small, central, limited copying process, and, seen thusly, the knot of perception that doesn't realize that the things already happened and already knew themselves will eventually and perhaps in stages shift to the whole thing knowing itself directly, as it actually always has but just somehow failed to know that at the level that makes the difference.
I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear sensate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight.
Dukkha is a power hog only because it fails to realize that the work was already done, that phenomena already knew themselves naturally, and so it is when that overcompensation stops that the whole thing fully knows that it shines on its own without having to do anything.
this is really good. thanks for finding/posting it.
Olivier S:
Here is the quote - this is worth ruminating and taking on the cusion ; there is no magic text that will make you see what you want to see just because of reading it :
: There are various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, yet the divisionlessness of this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. At some point there will no longer really be either option, as the thing will just be the thing, the field as the field of sensations, of manifestation, of qualities, textures, colors, and aspects. Call it True Self. Call it no-self. Regardless, it is happening, as it always has and there are various modes of attention, as there always have been and various modes of perception arising and vanishing, which may highlight various qualities over others, it seems and there is nobody to decide that this full, rich, transient, direct, interdependent, causal field is either but thoughts that it might be one or the other can still arise, as they did before and in that direct perception, the divisionlessness of it eliminates the subtle sense of some thing that is choosing modes. Though the sense of those apparent choices and decisions arising on their own may still occur. And this lack of a split, this lack of an illusion of some separate, permanent, continuous something that could truly stand outside of all of this and make such choices is seen through as part of the whole of the flickering, shimmering, transient thing. So look carefully at the patterns that seem to be deciding between those various modes and notice them and just get to know them, such that what is getting to know them and them are both clearly comprehended on their own, by themselves, aware/manifest where they are and all modes will come to be clearer about having that same quality of directness, of where-they-are-ness, in a way that eliminates finally the sense that any of those specific modes is the one true ultimate mode, but all modes are truly the thing itself, as the qualities of fundamental perceptual truth are universal and apply to all states and qualities and modes of perception and attention without exception. Spend time enjoying the nice ones if you wish, as all modes of attention reveal the universal truths if perceived clearly, so if the nice modes happen, perceive them clearly, and if the modes you don't like as much happen, perceive them clearly, though it is true that the most pleasant and unpleasant ones as well as the least interesting ones are not as easy for some to just see as they are, as our reactions of enjoyment, aversion and boredom may seem to cloud clear perception. But with clear comprehension from good practice, the fundamental truths reveal themselves, and a fluent clarity and facility in all states of manifestation becomes natural and habituated such that apparent exceptions and finally the sense of fundamental options become finer and more subtle and may eventually vanish. ... The common way of looking at this is that there are zillions of sensations but we can only comprehend a limited number of them. Except that perspective actually misses a really essential point that is strangely obvious once you think about it and yet also quite slippery, given how we are so used to not seeing things this way, or so we think. That point is that each sensation already knew itself when it arose. If it arose, then the comprehension was build into it, intrinsic to it, the same as it. We have this notion that there is some central comprehender, some liner processor of all of that stuff out there, and yet all of the stuff out there already processed itself it as it arose, as that arising was the processing, and what the seeming central processor does is to make some additional secondary impression (that is also just more sensations that are aware where they are and of themselves), but we actually believe that this secondary impression, this echo, this stand-in, is actually the awareness, the comprehension, when it is actually just a secondary effect from the first cause, that being the first sensation that the second sensation follows. Said another way: All of the sensations know themselves as and when and where they are, always have, always will, couldn't be any other way. Awareness and phenomena just always are not in a 1:1 ratio, they are actually just the same thing. When reality seems filtered through this odd secondary central processing habit, it appears that some middleman, some potentially overburdened one-at-a-time system, is perceiving them, when actually it is just making poor copies one at a time of something that is vast and rich and already comprehended itself and never really actually needed any poor copies made to already be known. So, just let the field in all of its richness speak for itself, including the small, central, limited copying process, and, seen thusly, the knot of perception that doesn't realize that the things already happened and already knew themselves will eventually and perhaps in stages shift to the whole thing knowing itself directly, as it actually always has but just somehow failed to know that at the level that makes the difference. I, for one, see no reason not to enjoy the state you are able to get into, as, done well, most such things get boring after a time, no matter how amazing, and eventually familiarity with it will, if you are lucky and when the thrill and novelty wear off, lead to better and more clear sensate comprehension, which is the first basis of insight. Dukkha is a power hog only because it fails to realize that the work was already done, that phenomena already knew themselves naturally, and so it is when that overcompensation stops that the whole thing fully knows that it shines on its own without having to do anything.
Hi Jim! Thanks for taking the time to respond I appreciate the hell out of it.
“Are you practicing in daily life or just sitting meditation?”
I have been committed to meditation on and off the cushion. Though admittedly I have always sucked at remaining present while I work. Some days are better than others.
I appreciate all the specific mctb and interview content. This is all stuff I’ve read and reread over the last few months. But I think your bringing it up is actually rather helpful at this point. And I spent the morning relistening and reading.
"Just this, so nice, any time" - U Pandita Jr
Yeah that's what I'm gunning for.
See my other comment here on 100% capture. Because it has always been a sticky topic for me and I feel like I got at it from a good angle in the comment I just sent.
"Can you explain how to do this practice? Is it published anywhere?“
There are practices that are similar in late stages of Adidam. So you’d find similar stuff in The Dawn Horse Testament. The general territory is discussed at length in the Paradox of Instruction which was mentioned above but that doesn’t go into detail on practice.
It’s very difficult to transcribe. My teacher just showed me with transmission, started a sentence describing it and then stopped when he saw I was already doing it.
The practice if I might attempt to describe it: Basically if the witness has a shape(a vaguely human shape), relax through that shape such that it diffuses into the entirety of all sensation in a totally panoramic way that includes every aspect of the body, every aspect of sensation itself. There’s a relaxing of every single piece of the brain and nervous system from the eyes back through the midbrain, the crown and that sort of naturally unfolds throughout the whole nervous system.
It was then and still is the single most interesting meditative thing I’ve experienced. A total uncoiling of all knots in the body, like my brain stem was being gently massaged and stretched open. And that stretch, which is becoming more and more how I experience my body, is just the most natural, right, totally groovy way to be an embodied human. It feels like I magically gained the capacity to relax every element of my body and deep brain at will and more and more frequently the body just naturally relaxes itself into this very wide, very inclusive, very totally everything that is happening kind of situation.
(For what it's worth I deeply suspect and have intuited from a couple of conversations with his students that Will Johnson's Hollow Bamboo dharma ends up in this similar territory. It's also very likely that Adi Da had a very body focused means of discussing the opening of the wisdom eye. Maybe not. I actually don't know.)
Adi Da I know was very sympathetic to Buddhism, but as is common with these crazy tantric virtuosos he seemed to suspect he had something the traditions did not. All I can say is I've practiced enough of the Buddha's and Adi Da's systems that they both seem to be onto something really very remarkable.
I would be very interested in having a conversation about how different attainments stack up between different traditions and so on. Perhaps in the future on another thread.
I appreciate the hell out of it. “Are you practicing in daily life or just sitting meditation?”
I have been committed to meditation on and off the cushion. Though admittedly I have always sucked at remaining present while I work. Some days are better than others.
I appreciate all the specific mctb and interview content. This is all stuff I’ve read and reread over the last few months. But I think your bringing it up is actually rather helpful at this point. And I spent the morning relistening and reading.
"Just this, so nice, any time" - U Pandita Jr
Yeah that's what I'm gunning for.
See my other comment here on 100% capture. Because it has always been a sticky topic for me and I feel like I got at it from a good angle in the comment I just sent.
"Can you explain how to do this practice? Is it published anywhere?“
There are practices that are similar in late stages of Adidam. So you’d find similar stuff in The Dawn Horse Testament. The general territory is discussed at length in the Paradox of Instruction which was mentioned above but that doesn’t go into detail on practice.
It’s very difficult to transcribe. My teacher just showed me with transmission, started a sentence describing it and then stopped when he saw I was already doing it.
The practice if I might attempt to describe it: Basically if the witness has a shape(a vaguely human shape), relax through that shape such that it diffuses into the entirety of all sensation in a totally panoramic way that includes every aspect of the body, every aspect of sensation itself. There’s a relaxing of every single piece of the brain and nervous system from the eyes back through the midbrain, the crown and that sort of naturally unfolds throughout the whole nervous system.
It was then and still is the single most interesting meditative thing I’ve experienced. A total uncoiling of all knots in the body, like my brain stem was being gently massaged and stretched open. And that stretch, which is becoming more and more how I experience my body, is just the most natural, right, totally groovy way to be an embodied human. It feels like I magically gained the capacity to relax every element of my body and deep brain at will and more and more frequently the body just naturally relaxes itself into this very wide, very inclusive, very totally everything that is happening kind of situation.
(For what it's worth I deeply suspect and have intuited from a couple of conversations with his students that Will Johnson's Hollow Bamboo dharma ends up in this similar territory. It's also very likely that Adi Da had a very body focused means of discussing the opening of the wisdom eye. Maybe not. I actually don't know.)
Adi Da I know was very sympathetic to Buddhism, but as is common with these crazy tantric virtuosos he seemed to suspect he had something the traditions did not. All I can say is I've practiced enough of the Buddha's and Adi Da's systems that they both seem to be onto something really very remarkable.
I would be very interested in having a conversation about how different attainments stack up between different traditions and so on. Perhaps in the future on another thread.
Bahiya Baby
Most of it, besides some strange olfactory hindrances, has to do with mental objects back in the deep brain.
Most of it, besides some strange olfactory hindrances, has to do with mental objects back in the deep brain.
Not sure if this is what you describe but in either way nothing to worry about it. Brain through self observation and pushing buttons will see effects and later when any adjustment related to things these buttons control is needed brain will be able to act more skillfully thanks to this exposure.
For similar reasons body scanning techniques are beneficial. It is generally good idea to spend some time to from time to time have awareness on each body part. Any unrealized issues (read: energy blockades in esoteric lingo) and things brain might forgot about are being mapped and experience overall can become much better.
It would suck to have brain not knowing its buttons and suffer eg. depression not being able to self-correct its chemical ballance.
On this note it is not like there is need to consciously study these things in great detail. Just brain knowing is enough so if something happen and you are mindful of what you were doing and where and what are effects it causes it is enough.
"It sounds like you're having the experiences but aren't quite clear about the insights."
This sounds super accurate to me.
This sounds super accurate to me.
Most of the insight that really matters is just knowing which qualities are good and which bad to know which to cultivate.
Rest is conceptualization and as much as I am myself fan of right insight and right understanding down to single brain bits I must say that in practice even this is mostly pointless other than academical discussion and to maybe know that some of the canonical and commonly used conceptualizations are more harmful than helpful - which everyone knows is true but still put conceptualization allowed the place also limiting oneself with them.
It is not the point of feeling you know when you do not know.
True knowledge comes when you want to actually know how device works and put lots and lots of effort in studying it.
There is nothing bad in not being being interested in this stuff and just go right to the point, make experience nice and comfy and leave all technical details in cloud of unknowing. Inside own mind its always enough just to go by intuition and intuition works better without chains of conceptual understanding.
Say device you write on - is it really that important to know how it was build and software written, what endianess processor have or how buses verify correctness of transmitted data and which signaling methods are used? Not really, even instruction set of processor is completely transparent to like 99.9% developers let alone end users
And definitely it is not helpful to say things like that anyone who know how to use program on such device needs to know things about it and then invent bunch of nonsense about it just to appear to other people who also have no idea about as knowing something. It is ignorance.
In other words people cling to conceptualizations, mostly not even theirs and treat it as meme. (note: term "meme" originally was not about funny pictures... just like most dharma terms people use were originally about something else)
Hello Bahiya
We are all bound by the style of practice and its associated languaging that forms in our own minds. Often we dump languaging that is traditional and adopt our own languaging of practice and the direct experience that we gain in practice. This makes it difficult to communicate, but not impossible. At the risk of sounding incomprehensible, I am putting together some responses to your writing and some pieces of advice in terms of the direction that you can potentially give to your practice. I trust that you will evaluate and decide whether or not my responses and advice are relevant to you adopting that which works and simply dumping that which doesnt. My intention in writing to you isnt to challenge what you have written or debate it, but to present to you my point of view which you can do some good old fashioned 'Ehipassiko' on.
Responses
1. Think of each fetter as a connate of the mind - a sankhara. An underlying tendency that waits to be called into action by a trigger. The fetter determines the particular kind of cognitive cage that gets fashioned and then the heart gets stuffed into that cognitive cage in a set repeatable pattern called Pratitya Samutpad or Dependent origination. Thus if one is fettered then the hallmark of being fettered would be having the heart stuffed into a cage. Whether one walks around with a sense of self or as an empty container through which 'objects' simply come and go is immaterial in my opinion. these are strange perceptual configurations that have no bearing on fetters. These perceptual configurations are deliberately created in formal practice in order to create a vantage point throuugh which the mind and its activities can be observed. For us as practiotioners these perceptual configurations continue to get created .... and they keep breaking down ... a dumb mind doing gymnastics that we trained it to do, just doesnt stop doing them even though we arent practicing. In short, perceptual changes need to be completely ignored - they have no value in judging any kind of progress or lack thereof.
2. Think in terms of upadana or appropriation. An aspect of the process through which the heart is stuffed into conceptual cages. Take two of these potential cages as examples. Rupa raga and Arupa raga. Rupa is sensorial materiality, anything that carries sensorial materiality is sensed, that which does not carry sensorial materiality cannot be sensed. A thought carries sensorial materiality thus we can sense that there is a thought tumbling around inside our head. Sankharas or constructs that construct experience cannot be sensed they are outside the realm of the sensorium. A thought of pizza can have multiple precedents and consequents. For example a gourmand may salivate some one struggling with anorexia may vomit. There are different constructs in different people's heads, different 'operators', that construct further experience. To sense something that can be sensed and identify with it, lay a claim of ownership on it, derive one's identity from it is rupa raga. To intuit the presence of an operator/sankhara/ construct that constructs and then to identify with it, lay a claim of ownership on it, derive one's identity from it is arupa raga. To be free of fetters means to no longer have the heart stuffed into these two (and other) conceptual cages. To no longer take conscious experience 'personally'. This isnt anything personal, this is just the business conducted by the sensorium. This is a cognitive change resulting in an affective outcome - a heart quality, it is not a perceptual quality. To identify with any particular configuration of awareness is rupa raga. To identify with any operator that works towards any particular configuration of awareness is arupa raga.
Advice
1. Pick up the 5 aggregates model of conscious experience and train yourself to see sensorial materiality (Rupa), Its perverted knowing (vijnana), its cognition/recognition (samjna), The movements of the heart (vedana) and inuit the presence of the operators that pervert knowing, that run congition/recognition, that move the heart (sankharas/samskaras). And track these categories of experience deeply familiarizing yourself with experience as these categories - training the mind. Seeing that each experiential moment is one particular config of these aggregates. And there is no 'you' running them.
2. Do paccavekhana/pratyavekshana (reviewing of the fetters/defilements). Set up a simple repetitive attentional task. As an illustration, pay attention to the left buttcheek, then the right nostril, then two sounds, two thoughts ... and cycle between this for one hour in each session. The rigid military discipline will reliably trigger the fetters. 'I gotta do something else' - audhatya/restlessness, 'This is happening to me' 'This one hour of drudgery is happening to me' rupa raga, 'I am the stuff that is running the show' 'I am the ability to mark time' arupa raga ... and so on. This deep familiarization with the defilements brought about by the drudgery will completely demolish all ideas or notions of being 'done' .... or maybe you actually are done! I dont know
3. Amp up concentration practice - use the breath, do the jhanas, get to the breath nimitta, do the nimitta jhanas, do tejo krtsna (fire kasina), use a mantra .... basically train concentration as an ability independent of object, and get really good at it.
I hope something here was helpful to you.
Best wishes.
We are all bound by the style of practice and its associated languaging that forms in our own minds. Often we dump languaging that is traditional and adopt our own languaging of practice and the direct experience that we gain in practice. This makes it difficult to communicate, but not impossible. At the risk of sounding incomprehensible, I am putting together some responses to your writing and some pieces of advice in terms of the direction that you can potentially give to your practice. I trust that you will evaluate and decide whether or not my responses and advice are relevant to you adopting that which works and simply dumping that which doesnt. My intention in writing to you isnt to challenge what you have written or debate it, but to present to you my point of view which you can do some good old fashioned 'Ehipassiko' on.
Responses
1. Think of each fetter as a connate of the mind - a sankhara. An underlying tendency that waits to be called into action by a trigger. The fetter determines the particular kind of cognitive cage that gets fashioned and then the heart gets stuffed into that cognitive cage in a set repeatable pattern called Pratitya Samutpad or Dependent origination. Thus if one is fettered then the hallmark of being fettered would be having the heart stuffed into a cage. Whether one walks around with a sense of self or as an empty container through which 'objects' simply come and go is immaterial in my opinion. these are strange perceptual configurations that have no bearing on fetters. These perceptual configurations are deliberately created in formal practice in order to create a vantage point throuugh which the mind and its activities can be observed. For us as practiotioners these perceptual configurations continue to get created .... and they keep breaking down ... a dumb mind doing gymnastics that we trained it to do, just doesnt stop doing them even though we arent practicing. In short, perceptual changes need to be completely ignored - they have no value in judging any kind of progress or lack thereof.
2. Think in terms of upadana or appropriation. An aspect of the process through which the heart is stuffed into conceptual cages. Take two of these potential cages as examples. Rupa raga and Arupa raga. Rupa is sensorial materiality, anything that carries sensorial materiality is sensed, that which does not carry sensorial materiality cannot be sensed. A thought carries sensorial materiality thus we can sense that there is a thought tumbling around inside our head. Sankharas or constructs that construct experience cannot be sensed they are outside the realm of the sensorium. A thought of pizza can have multiple precedents and consequents. For example a gourmand may salivate some one struggling with anorexia may vomit. There are different constructs in different people's heads, different 'operators', that construct further experience. To sense something that can be sensed and identify with it, lay a claim of ownership on it, derive one's identity from it is rupa raga. To intuit the presence of an operator/sankhara/ construct that constructs and then to identify with it, lay a claim of ownership on it, derive one's identity from it is arupa raga. To be free of fetters means to no longer have the heart stuffed into these two (and other) conceptual cages. To no longer take conscious experience 'personally'. This isnt anything personal, this is just the business conducted by the sensorium. This is a cognitive change resulting in an affective outcome - a heart quality, it is not a perceptual quality. To identify with any particular configuration of awareness is rupa raga. To identify with any operator that works towards any particular configuration of awareness is arupa raga.
Advice
1. Pick up the 5 aggregates model of conscious experience and train yourself to see sensorial materiality (Rupa), Its perverted knowing (vijnana), its cognition/recognition (samjna), The movements of the heart (vedana) and inuit the presence of the operators that pervert knowing, that run congition/recognition, that move the heart (sankharas/samskaras). And track these categories of experience deeply familiarizing yourself with experience as these categories - training the mind. Seeing that each experiential moment is one particular config of these aggregates. And there is no 'you' running them.
2. Do paccavekhana/pratyavekshana (reviewing of the fetters/defilements). Set up a simple repetitive attentional task. As an illustration, pay attention to the left buttcheek, then the right nostril, then two sounds, two thoughts ... and cycle between this for one hour in each session. The rigid military discipline will reliably trigger the fetters. 'I gotta do something else' - audhatya/restlessness, 'This is happening to me' 'This one hour of drudgery is happening to me' rupa raga, 'I am the stuff that is running the show' 'I am the ability to mark time' arupa raga ... and so on. This deep familiarization with the defilements brought about by the drudgery will completely demolish all ideas or notions of being 'done' .... or maybe you actually are done! I dont know
3. Amp up concentration practice - use the breath, do the jhanas, get to the breath nimitta, do the nimitta jhanas, do tejo krtsna (fire kasina), use a mantra .... basically train concentration as an ability independent of object, and get really good at it.
I hope something here was helpful to you.
Best wishes.
I can't speak for other forms of Buddhism, but yes probably.
I'd say Buddha's original attainment is da best.
From all Buddhist traditions only Mahayana captures qbit of it by adding lots and lots... padding. Though I believe Buddha himself couldn't really give it to people and Theravada is the realization of all the Buddha's teachings after he started teaching - i.e. Buddha's new cycle and actual "Buddhism".
Real Bodhisattvas figured out Buddha's hidden messages and realized what can be done.
Now Vajrayana I am pretty certain is mix of different stuff and more like taking all sorts of things, mostly from Hindus traditions but also some regional and slapping "Buddhism" on to itself and then declared "we are superior, we have all Ultimate realizations". It resembles more what Buddha would be at should he didn't have certain realization... but then he would never go seek because he would be a king. Probably splendid king but nothing more.
In any way I was a Bodhisattva so I know everything about everything and then some.
Was because these things one has to be complete for them to take full effect. Otherwise its no different than the so called Hinayana. I do not use it in derogatory term, just indicating sacrifice Bodhisattva must make which isn't part of Hinayana. None of the people who are using these terms as Hinayana in derogatory way have any rights to do so - but then again that is what you get when you put bunch of people enlightened less than flat worm in to tradition which openly considers itself superior - and it does exactly because of these people. Enlightened people on the level needed for Mahayana come very rarely and most who are fettered will only get the wrong message thinking they are already superior just because they make dishonest ritual and call it Bodhicitta which isn't at all what it should be. At the very least Mahayana has not lost its focus completely and advanced people do sacrifices even if partial because doing it is embedded in the "vibe" of the tradition so when someone get's to level where they can experience it they will know what to do.
Also... given how Vajrayana seems to have gotten the same wrong superiority complex and cranked it to 11 or even more Bhumis - which doesn't make any sense - just to claim superiority. It is obvious what it is. Always have to jump more hoops to get to the source of their dharmas.
So no, Vajrayana is not the superior Buddhism. It isn't Buddhism at all. More like some kind of Joga or something. Which isn't wrong by itself but out of respect to Lord Buddha it has to be pointed out. Not that normal people have any reason to have respect to Buddha anyways. There has to be direct transmission for there to be reason for there to be any reason for the respect. And at least people like you do have only respect to Vajrayana so that's at least good. There is value for traditions like these too, Vajrayana introduced lots of good stuff from older teachings which by itself were not bad. Especially in today's interconnected world where we have open dharma market they serve as hub for those teachings for people who like Vajrayana itself cling to Buddhism because it was claimed to be superior.
Edit: apologies, this is misleading. I mean "yes, probably there are other forms of Buddhism, and perhaps even other spiritual traditions entirely, which can lead to full Awakening". Though there may be truly vast differences in the efficacy of these forms compared to Vajrayana Buddhism.
FYI for Buddha it was never about "efficacy" but "completeness".
It usually was for all the gurus in India. And it really is the real origin of Vajrayana.
Again: nothing wrong with these teachings. You should however be aware Vajrayana is NOT real Buddhism and if you want real Buddhism go to Theravada and if you want real Nibbana go to Buddha.
That said if you never felt these differences and just focus on "efficacy" then you should not bother. In Vajrayana you are in the right for you company
BTW. Pragmatic dharma is not Theravada!
More like more modern efficient Theravada methods without proper focus thorough.
Like if you already took small vehicle and made toy vehicle out of it. Some skilled people at least put engines in it and have a blast with it
And I totally understand it, there is a time and place for this stage too. It after all already is being on the path, just not at the finish as it might seem to untrained eyes.
Agreed, and then taking a global view, let's keep in mind that demographically speaking: Christianity 2.5 billion, Islam 1.9 B, Hinduism 1.2B, Buddhism 500m, Folk Religions 400m, and then countless other denominations and spiritual vehicles and non-denominational practice schools, etc., and secular approaches within the remaining 1.2B non-affiliate, many with their own complex practices and all that (Source: Pew Research Institute). One should probably assume that, as has been the case with other areas of human activity such as agriculture, the arts, the sciences, equally highly refined versions of the whole contemplative thing can be found in many other places than the indian sub-continent and related areas of expension of buddhism, though there may be some unevenness... That is my view anyways
It seems I'm one of very few whose practice was heavily influenced by MCTB and the DhO from a pretty early stage, and who then moved on to practice I believe authentic Vajrayana Buddhism (including Dzogchen), in that I have a close personal relationship with a Vajrayana guru who is part of a lineage and was authorized by his teachers. I can also speak from experience of having achieved the various paths described in MCTB, at least up to 3rd. Throughout all of this I've been living as a lay person with a full-time job.
Pragmatic Dharma is not quite Theravada though.
It is obvious to anyone who can see.
Also why quit at 3rd?
It will always bother you with "what if?" questions...
That said you can always attain it later, maybe more correctly with less struggling and more fun. I guess that is your plan.
My experience has been that Vajrayana works, and works on a level way beyond what one is likely to attain through the Theravada-influenced practice style typically discussed on the DhO. If one is interested in achieving the most profound peace of mind and freedom from limitations possible (i.e. the highest of higher paths), it may be worth delving into. But of course what works best will depend on the individual.
If you believe these are highest of highest paths then good for you.
I believe they got something, though not sure at the moment if anything I didn't figure out already.
Maybe its good time to check what they got.
I checked this "thigle" thing today in like 5-10 minute meditation. It for whatever reason happens spontaneously from time to time over the years, especially lately. Not sure if its natural or visualization/transmission I picked up scanning some Vajrayana monk too hard or what. I close eyes and its there if I keep focus in specific way.
Rainbows normally are just circular rainbows - without any fancy glowing colors. Can be made glowing with the same tech as I use to make any color super vibrant and pleasant.
When focusing on them trying to see inside I can see they are on edges of cornea of giant eye (kinda saw this eyes a lot over years - it likes to look at me I guess... hope it likes what it sees
). Then I saw eye transforming in to Rinnegan (specific modificaton to cornea and color) and then eye changed again to more normal and positioned itself seeing up and out of eye from pupil there came Vajra... Kinda like that thing:
And it was absolute still like in vajra-like meditative stabilization. Absolutely stable unmoving, perfect implementation.
I figured that one out already years ago. It is evolutionary trait which was more useful in the past for perception and at the same time power savings. It reduces brain activity while providing better spatial resolution and motion detection.
What this visualization is trying to tell me anyways... that I hold Vajra in my third eye or what?
Hopefully you are good at mind state visualization. Vajrayana kinda seems to need it a lot...
Skimming through MCTB2 draft edition and found this Daniel's quote relevant for pragmatic dharma's paths up to 4th.
In other words you do not think about sense of self or any silly things but note sensations like literal madman all day long. You do it until EVERYTHING you experience is made from single sensations which your mind is let to experiences only through noticing them. Anything less won't do. Less doing noticing and more having the same noticing happens the better - then again at 3rd path no one can be confused about mind doing all that stuff by itself or have any issues with self anyways.
The way I did it near end of 3rd path was trying to come up with focus state which would be aware of all sensations. The same way of practice as improved my eyesight - I would not control eyes or process of seeing but would nudge mind to introduce errors in how brain would do seeing to hopefully introduce positive change which mind would hopefully notice and likewise all the noting/noticing. Of course I would not introduce any corrections because how would I? Idea for mind doing this refining processes is the way to go. Likewise I would mindfully assess how well mind was noticing and if it would slack I would observe small changes to wake mind up and remind itself to be more diligent. From time to time mind would change something how it focuses to notice more stuff eg. I would notice that some things appear as one blurry mess notices as one sensation and mind would be reminded it has to notice each individual sensations and not composite experiences as one thing.
Description-wise it is easier to say "I" did, "I" practiced noticing, etc. but definitions of these things change along with practice. If mind-state fluctuates between the so called self mode and no-self mode then definitions what "doing" means. In this case person has to be mindful enough to notice how things in no-self are done and if noticing performance is superior and do them the same exact thing when there is self and ignore if it is self mode or no-self mode and just drill practice ALL DAY LONG using this more correct way with idea that it is still not it and should be improved when it itself happens perfectly.
And I'll rephrase it again: you are supposed to be mindful in all instances mind state changes to more "enlightened" and when it shifts back down to less enlightened you are supposed to ignore all that jazz and have only things from the more enlightened mind state happen in exactly the same way. If you see you are doing something and it comes with all this sense of self jazz you just refuse to do it and try again with correct enlightened way. If that doesn't like work at all then you fall back to doing practice normally but then you note "I actually know nothing about how to do it and me doing this practice normally if utter FAILURE" and having noted that next time you have no-self state you like or whatever you are this time more mindful to notice relevant aspects of how things happen here to be able to if next time you are thrown out of this better mind state to be able to do things in this way despite being in worse mind state.
At 3rd path I had zero self states and zero no-self states because I fixed the whole damn issue before that but I would have times when noticing would happen and when my mind was cloudy enough it would get lost in intricaties of sensations and would start merge experiences. The idea was to notice all experiences as streams of individual sensations which all last for single moment and during that arise and pass away. I would also practice other stuff which had nothing to do with noting so not all day long one practice but the idea was to always hone this skill of noticing doing anything and I would note failures in being mindful on this level very often. Like when I was more practicing concentration I would still note failing to notice individual sensations and otherwise notice individual sensations. Concentration and jhana practices are pretty good environment to practice mindfulness anyways and noticing what from jhanas are made makes it later to induce jhanas easily.
I myself went as manic as this to start notice so much as my brain processes all sensual experiences in batches during pulses and noticed each individual "projectors of qualities" (parts of sensations which dealt with actual sensual qualities) so sensations within sensations which were actually describing these sensations how they actually felt. I because I always assumes mindfulness is not practice but something that should be there 100% and because mindfulness has to be working all the time I would play with interrupting mind during moment where qualities were to be applied (note: instantaneous cessations are 2nd path skill, at least I practiced and mastered this stuff at 2nd path) to then induce activity of sensations with different qualities (or as I would literally call them at the time 'projectors' - btw. how these operate can be noticed just by observing them and their sensations) and would play with this while trying to maintain stellar mindfulness of each sensation and noting all failures to do so moving more focus on part where failures happened. Each small sensation in sensate field would not be too small to conclude "there is nothing more fundamental than this level". More like on some level no sensation noticed was seen as anything than inability to see it deeper. The goal would not be to reach any relief but just to notice as much as possible and being mindful at 11 all day long. Of course I would not keep it up on that level all the time but the point was to note "FAILURE" when I would not and do better next time starting with HERE AND NOW resuming practice immediately.
It is how you get to "technical 4th path".
Nothing else will do. I mean maybe mixing "mind state visualization" with it is not part of it but eventually when all this noticing is drilled in to brain it should be something which should be easily done. If not then sensations are not noticed well enough. Why I always point out all the things 4th pather should be able to see and do... all the while I actually think even fluidly interrupting mind and inducing injecting qualities to cause mind to rewire itself in seconds is still only "wontly of praise" because one can slack off even more. No relief for Arhats from noting. It is only viable attitude for 4th path. Imho when someone doesn't keep this level of practice after 4th path they sided from 4th to some practice failure. Of course after you live at 4th path it is easy to pick it up but its is only when you keep this level of Noble Eightfold Path you are "worthy of praise" and therefore an Arhat. Not for a moment think its something to do and forget about whole thing. This is 6/7th fetter mentality.
Now go and forget yourself in noticing sensation and then not forget to note forgetting yourself as it was failure in your mindfulness which needs to be corrected because you should be mindful of literally EVERYTHNG and EVERY MOMENT YOU ARE ALIVE, all individual sensations and all sensations which make sensations arise as they arise, literally everything. This the goal. Not for 4th path but for your life. 4th path is just hindrance you should not desire and desiring it should be noted... again as failure not to be ever repeated again. Also note any thoughts "I am at path X " or how close you are and how long it will take to get path as failures just as any thoughts about this whole thing. It is not the point what path person is but how mindful he/she is during whole day. Even when going to sleep you should notice sensations as to notice how mind goes to sleep, what sensations arise then.
If you do not believe me sent email to Daniel Ingram and ask if you should wonder about what to do to get 4th path or instead notice sensations. I never sent such email to our overlord but I am pretty sure what his response would be ;)
BTW. This noticing should not only be flawless (and by flawless I mean all instances of noticing sensations are composite experiences but were noted as only whole package and more basic components were not notices as separate sensations). It should also be relaxed. Notice all stress you put yourself through and relax maintaining mindfulness. If its too stressful it isn't the right mindfulness. It should be as relaxed as if you experienced jhanas. In fact it is only 4th path when mindfulness is like pure most refined jhana, relaxed and itself pleasure.
Hopefully by this post you realized 4th path has nothing to do with sense of self or even attaining 4th path and has all to do with having (so attaining - through right practices) stellar mindfulness.
ps. If you often note "impatience" related with how much more time to 4th path attainment which break your mindfulness and concentration then put thought/answer "definitely more than 10 years when stupid thoughts like these arise and break my focus". Tested it, it works
For five years of my practice I was mostly a One-Technique Freak, and that technique was noticing—or noting—how sensations flicker. I would do so as often as I could—basically whenever I didn’t have to be doing something that required concentration on the specifics of my life. I would be riding an elevator, just trying to see when I could feel each foot, or lying down to sleep and noticing how many times I could experience the sensations of my breath in each second. I also tried to notice this quality of experience for every single sensation that occurred during my formal practice.
In other words you do not think about sense of self or any silly things but note sensations like literal madman all day long. You do it until EVERYTHING you experience is made from single sensations which your mind is let to experiences only through noticing them. Anything less won't do. Less doing noticing and more having the same noticing happens the better - then again at 3rd path no one can be confused about mind doing all that stuff by itself or have any issues with self anyways.
The way I did it near end of 3rd path was trying to come up with focus state which would be aware of all sensations. The same way of practice as improved my eyesight - I would not control eyes or process of seeing but would nudge mind to introduce errors in how brain would do seeing to hopefully introduce positive change which mind would hopefully notice and likewise all the noting/noticing. Of course I would not introduce any corrections because how would I? Idea for mind doing this refining processes is the way to go. Likewise I would mindfully assess how well mind was noticing and if it would slack I would observe small changes to wake mind up and remind itself to be more diligent. From time to time mind would change something how it focuses to notice more stuff eg. I would notice that some things appear as one blurry mess notices as one sensation and mind would be reminded it has to notice each individual sensations and not composite experiences as one thing.
Description-wise it is easier to say "I" did, "I" practiced noticing, etc. but definitions of these things change along with practice. If mind-state fluctuates between the so called self mode and no-self mode then definitions what "doing" means. In this case person has to be mindful enough to notice how things in no-self are done and if noticing performance is superior and do them the same exact thing when there is self and ignore if it is self mode or no-self mode and just drill practice ALL DAY LONG using this more correct way with idea that it is still not it and should be improved when it itself happens perfectly.
And I'll rephrase it again: you are supposed to be mindful in all instances mind state changes to more "enlightened" and when it shifts back down to less enlightened you are supposed to ignore all that jazz and have only things from the more enlightened mind state happen in exactly the same way. If you see you are doing something and it comes with all this sense of self jazz you just refuse to do it and try again with correct enlightened way. If that doesn't like work at all then you fall back to doing practice normally but then you note "I actually know nothing about how to do it and me doing this practice normally if utter FAILURE" and having noted that next time you have no-self state you like or whatever you are this time more mindful to notice relevant aspects of how things happen here to be able to if next time you are thrown out of this better mind state to be able to do things in this way despite being in worse mind state.
At 3rd path I had zero self states and zero no-self states because I fixed the whole damn issue before that but I would have times when noticing would happen and when my mind was cloudy enough it would get lost in intricaties of sensations and would start merge experiences. The idea was to notice all experiences as streams of individual sensations which all last for single moment and during that arise and pass away. I would also practice other stuff which had nothing to do with noting so not all day long one practice but the idea was to always hone this skill of noticing doing anything and I would note failures in being mindful on this level very often. Like when I was more practicing concentration I would still note failing to notice individual sensations and otherwise notice individual sensations. Concentration and jhana practices are pretty good environment to practice mindfulness anyways and noticing what from jhanas are made makes it later to induce jhanas easily.
I myself went as manic as this to start notice so much as my brain processes all sensual experiences in batches during pulses and noticed each individual "projectors of qualities" (parts of sensations which dealt with actual sensual qualities) so sensations within sensations which were actually describing these sensations how they actually felt. I because I always assumes mindfulness is not practice but something that should be there 100% and because mindfulness has to be working all the time I would play with interrupting mind during moment where qualities were to be applied (note: instantaneous cessations are 2nd path skill, at least I practiced and mastered this stuff at 2nd path) to then induce activity of sensations with different qualities (or as I would literally call them at the time 'projectors' - btw. how these operate can be noticed just by observing them and their sensations) and would play with this while trying to maintain stellar mindfulness of each sensation and noting all failures to do so moving more focus on part where failures happened. Each small sensation in sensate field would not be too small to conclude "there is nothing more fundamental than this level". More like on some level no sensation noticed was seen as anything than inability to see it deeper. The goal would not be to reach any relief but just to notice as much as possible and being mindful at 11 all day long. Of course I would not keep it up on that level all the time but the point was to note "FAILURE" when I would not and do better next time starting with HERE AND NOW resuming practice immediately.
It is how you get to "technical 4th path".
Nothing else will do. I mean maybe mixing "mind state visualization" with it is not part of it but eventually when all this noticing is drilled in to brain it should be something which should be easily done. If not then sensations are not noticed well enough. Why I always point out all the things 4th pather should be able to see and do... all the while I actually think even fluidly interrupting mind and inducing injecting qualities to cause mind to rewire itself in seconds is still only "wontly of praise" because one can slack off even more. No relief for Arhats from noting. It is only viable attitude for 4th path. Imho when someone doesn't keep this level of practice after 4th path they sided from 4th to some practice failure. Of course after you live at 4th path it is easy to pick it up but its is only when you keep this level of Noble Eightfold Path you are "worthy of praise" and therefore an Arhat. Not for a moment think its something to do and forget about whole thing. This is 6/7th fetter mentality.
Now go and forget yourself in noticing sensation and then not forget to note forgetting yourself as it was failure in your mindfulness which needs to be corrected because you should be mindful of literally EVERYTHNG and EVERY MOMENT YOU ARE ALIVE, all individual sensations and all sensations which make sensations arise as they arise, literally everything. This the goal. Not for 4th path but for your life. 4th path is just hindrance you should not desire and desiring it should be noted... again as failure not to be ever repeated again. Also note any thoughts "I am at path X " or how close you are and how long it will take to get path as failures just as any thoughts about this whole thing. It is not the point what path person is but how mindful he/she is during whole day. Even when going to sleep you should notice sensations as to notice how mind goes to sleep, what sensations arise then.
If you do not believe me sent email to Daniel Ingram and ask if you should wonder about what to do to get 4th path or instead notice sensations. I never sent such email to our overlord but I am pretty sure what his response would be ;)
BTW. This noticing should not only be flawless (and by flawless I mean all instances of noticing sensations are composite experiences but were noted as only whole package and more basic components were not notices as separate sensations). It should also be relaxed. Notice all stress you put yourself through and relax maintaining mindfulness. If its too stressful it isn't the right mindfulness. It should be as relaxed as if you experienced jhanas. In fact it is only 4th path when mindfulness is like pure most refined jhana, relaxed and itself pleasure.
Hopefully by this post you realized 4th path has nothing to do with sense of self or even attaining 4th path and has all to do with having (so attaining - through right practices) stellar mindfulness.
ps. If you often note "impatience" related with how much more time to 4th path attainment which break your mindfulness and concentration then put thought/answer "definitely more than 10 years when stupid thoughts like these arise and break my focus". Tested it, it works
Sometimes it feels like I’ve been through a billion paths and haven’t made any progress at all.
I suggest doing some serious sitting with and noodling on this comment. What did you call "progress?" Did you really ever need to make progress? Does anyone?
Bahiya Baby
Sunshine and rainbows
Sunshine and rainbows
Ima pretty disillusioned with this "reality" ;)
Also good advice: do not fill your mind with any the so called "emptiness" or anything that pops in to your mind really.
Instead be smart and use sandboxed environments and run thorough Vipassana on it. It is what Vipassana is for you know... at some point it all get's more streamlined when you fill your mind with good habits, then you can pretend you fill mind with stuff and it will even feel totally real.
Until that happens be extremely careful of anything you find on internets and run it in sandboxed with all debug features enabled ;)