Hi all from Helsinki, Finland.

I was not sure on which sub-forum to write, so this one seemed like the safest bet

So I am looking for advice, comraderie, mentorship. I am 46-years old and started regular sitting again about 1.5 months ago.

I first got introduced to the dharma 25 years ago, through zen. I have been doing a sitting practice every few years for few months, then I would run out of steam and stop, only to find that I come back to this reliably after some time. Now the kids (finally) moved out and I find myself with more time to dedicate doing what I want, so this time around I have had less excuses to feel frustrated, bored etc. about practicing.

I have also done a couple of decades worth of psychological work with myself and a couple of therapists, p-docs etc, so I finally feel like I am past many psychological problems and issues that I used to think I would need the practice to help with. So in a way I feel more open to practice for it's own sake which feels good. I had a "revelatory" (don't know a better word) experience during my last therapy bout a couple of years ago, where I saw quite clearly into the falsity of self and identifying as it. This lasted for a couple of weeks but then sadly faded. Still, it is an experience that gave me a lot of resolve in chasing this path.

I am now sitting twice a day for 25 minutes. I have some ex-work related back issues that make the pain levels pretty high at times, but I am working on it to extend the sitting time. Maybe my main problem at this time is settling into a given form of practice, I feel like I jump from one to another and back. For years I used to do just basic counting of breaths, as it was the first practice taught to me at the zen center where I started all those years ago. More recently I have dropped the counting as it makes my breathing very forced and artificially drawn out most of the time, and it just got also plain boring also. So I have been following the breath at the nose.

Doing this I have gotten pretty consistently to an open and still place, where my breathing slows down to almost nothing, thoughts get far to the background and overall there is a feeling of peace and space. I take this to be access concentration?

A problem here is that I am quite a tightly wired individual, and I am very prone to using too much effort and battling with judging inner voices who assess whether I am doing "well" or not. Because of this I easily end up frustrated and exhausted with practicing. Which leads to my next point about how I made a small personal discovery last week, when after having read something I decided to let go of all (or of as much as possible) effort and just be and see what happens. After a while I noticed first what I took to be dullness/sleepiness arising, but I thought to just ride it out. Weirdly enough I found ending up in a serene place that opened up, I felt like my breath (which got really slow,deep and enjoyable) was breathing me in some way and I was just following what was happening. Sounds and the feeling of the wind from an open window felt really good and nice. It was really the most blissful state I have yet encountered. But as said, I don't know what this was as the breath was really deep, as opposed to the really shallow one in AC?

Anyways, now I find myself in a weird impasse between trying and not trying, and second guessing myself whether I should follow the breath or not. I guess I would need someone to tell me the answer to that one

I feel a strong need for dharma friends, as I feel it would greatly assist in staying on course. I have just lost most interest in any kind of religion-tinted groups like zen, and when I have looked at other local groups I see a lot of practice that seems to me more like social activity or mixed up with interpersonal work, psychology, etc. I even found a movie retreat... I would like to concentrate on practicing. 

ok, sorry for the rambling post. Any tips are greatly appreciated

Good to hear that you have time for a more regular practice. I was on and off for many years and then found myself with time on my hands, like you, and it worked out really well. It's a lucky thing to have both the time and the perspective. I also think it is fantastic that you are asking questions and going at this with a broad view from the get-go. 

There are, indeed a number of ways to skin this cat. I just jumped in without much research and I turned out fine, but I wish I had known more at the start. The first thing to do might be to decide why you want to meditate. What do you hope achieve? There are many very different good answers to this question. It can be curiosity, a desire to have less suffering, a desire to have more joy, a hope to be more helpful, a drive to know the truth, a yearning to understand the world, etc. Also, it is helpful to think about what you are prepared to put up with. Some mediation techniques tend to be associated with a lot of emotional disturbance, depression, and even psychosis. Some people are robust and can roll with that. For some people, the pay-off of getting past present suffering makes such hurdles along the escape route acceptable. Some meditation techniques are very slow in terms of payoff and only contribute to changes in a very modest way. For some people, who don't see much need for change, that is fine. 

Hopefully, you will get a few different suggestions here, based on your goals. You might also get some suggestions for groups of like-minded practitioners to join. It's great that you have the chance to take your time and pick a practice that suits you. 

Thank you so much for your answer.

I hope to end suffering is the gut-level answer as to my motivation. I have suffered with depression for decades and I want to believe that I have seen quite many of the darkside demons unwillingly already, so I don't feel particularly fearful of tackling stuff head-on. That said, I have also come to respect and know quite well where my borders are, so I will try to take this as fast as I can manage, but no faster. But I have no illusion about it: only way out is through, I feel I can trust that intuition because I feel I have exhausted all the other options by now

Being realistic I am still at a beginner level, my main drive now is to get my daily sittings longer. I try to take it bit by bit.

Today's morning sit 25 minutes. I try to make up my mind before sitting on what am I pursuing this time, like "just settle in and let's see what happens, no judging" or "let's try to stay with the breath, easy and soft", but still I find changing course mid-sit from just sitting to breath and back, or from noticing the breath at the nose to a more general "expanding-contracting"-kind of noticing. I don't know if this is problem or not? I think the whole thing stems from still clinging to ideas about "getting it right", and also a feeling of wasting a sit if I somehow mess it up. 

I settle in quite fast, there is the body, posture slumping almost as soon as I close my eyes, I have started to straighten back up more regularly now and not worrying about it. Although I do also feel that I have a natural bad posture where I can feel quite comfortable and still. 

I recently managed to let go of my unconscious habit of controlling my breath into long, even draws which I think was a habit from my days of counting the breaths. I feel a lot better just letting the breath do it's thing and noticing it. I bring attention to the nostrils, cool going in, not much felt coming out. My thoughts are like one-liners, I have quit interrupting them. They are slightly annoying as an occurrence but I don't fight them really anymore, just trying to bring attention back to the nose and the breath. A couple of breaths and a thought comes, couple more breaths and attention goes to ringing in ears, birds chirping outside, tingling in the body. 

Any distraction fires one voice to mock me about not doing good, another one rushes in to tell that one to cool it. I don't really identify with the thoughts anymore. I seem to have found the amount of effort suitable for reigning in the attention, it's somewhere a little bit below halfway of a line going from super-strict at the top to no-effort at the bottom, just a gentle push seems to work best. Rob Burbea's voice comes up, which is stupid because I have only ever once listened to a talk of his. 

I don't feel keen on continuing but I push on. The mind is settling but still doesn't really lock on to the breath. I hang on in there somewhere just trying to be open. Frustration ever present in the background. I have my hands in the basic mudra in my lap, and again as usual of late, their position starts to feel weird and distorted. I focus on the sensations coming from the hands and I could swear I only have maybe three fingers and they are tied into a knot around each other. The timer rings and I find the hands in a tidy mudra. Back is stiff as a board although I have been feeling way less pain during the sits lately.

A practice-related idea for your consideration...

One downside of using the breath as the meditation anchor is that everything else that shows up seems like a distraction, something to suffer though, something to endure until it goes away... 

A lot of us have used "noting" practice to establish a more consistent and ultimately productive home practice and retreats. The basic idea of noting is that you note sensations, emotions, and thoughts as the object of meditation with the goal to directly face, intimately experience, and be conscious of what is occuring. There are many ways to do this, but in general, you can just sit and then on every outbreath (so at a rate of about 10 times a minute) you label one aspect of experience that is occuring. Could be the pressure of your butt on the cushion, could be the tingling pain in your back, could be your feeling of disappointment, could be "judging thoughts" that are occuring.  So the "object of meditation" changes and is endless interesting, you are simply noting/labeling with a word something that is already occuring. 

It seems strange that something so simple could be so powerful, but it really is. Especially with regular daily practice and wise use of longer retreats.

The benefit of noting practice is that every experience becomes FUEL for practice, no matter what shows up. Good/bad, wanted/unwanted, clarity/confusion... it doesn't matter. You are directly experiencing the moment and you are maintaining enough objectivity (i.e. not going semi-conscious). Of course distractions happen, no big deal. You just _note_ the distraction and start again. The nice thing about noting is also that if you stop noting it's a good sign that you are drifting off into a trance. In which case --- you guessed it -- you just _note_ what you were tranced out about and start again.

I tried many techniques for many years before realizing the simple effectiveness of noting practice... and then I made quick progress in my 40s. I had been a classic dark night yogi up until then.

Hope this helps. I really do think it makes the difference between a lot of bland and wasted practice versus actually diving into experience and cleaning it up. Cleaning up happens not by repression or control, but rather by directly experiencing the actual content of the mind. It's almost like we have stupid lizard brain that will keep being self-destructive UNLESS we directly experience the problems caused by it. This is similar to therapy, but in meditation its about the actual texture of living rather than narrative stories we tell ourself --- but obviously those are involved too. 

Best wishes for your practice!

(just google "meditation noting practice" for all sorts of flavors/variations in this basic approach)

Sorry to hear about the depression. I've had it too in the past. It also seems to be very common among people who take up meditation. I liked your log. You are good at describing it. I'm a huge fan of Rob Burbea, by the way. You could do worse than having that voice in your head from time to time. He has a gentle, softening influence on my thought and practice. 

Shargrol's advice seems spot on, given what you are going for. Shargrol often encourages people to stick to a steady, non-heroic practice,  which is good advice, and seems to be what you are doing, so that's a good fit too. Have you read Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha?

Thank you for advice and insights @Martin and @shargrol!

The noting sounds like what I need to do, and actually I tried it already yesterday evening and this morning. As usual I seem to complicate it Am I supposed to note whatever is there after each breath, even if my attention is not caught up by anything, i.e I'm just "aware and sitting", or should I aim for noting something regardless? Or only note distractions? I found myself trying to make these distinctions while sitting.

I guess it just takes getting used to, like anything new. I found my mind trying to persuade me returning to following the breath, as it is familiar and safe to it.

MCTB, I am in the process of reading it. I feel like lot of the stuff is so high level that it's not very relevant to me at this moment, but still it is a very motivating read, and I really appreciate the de-mystifying "nuts and bolts" approach. Makes you feel like this is something doable. The chapter on the powers is very interesting to me, as I have been very interested in the western magick tradition for a long time. It's actually what brought me back to meditation practice.

An interesting minor thing this morning was I noticed my thumbs had come apart in my lap, and when I rejoined them it felt like somebody had put the plug back in the socket, and the "lamp came back on". As noticed earlier there have been weird sensations coming from my hands lately.

MCTB is an important read because it demystifies and deglamorizes aspects of practice. By the time you finish reading it, you should have a feeling that "this is possible" and "I won't be a glowing saint with a halo and perfect actions when I'm done". You'll also realize that many of the "states" that people call enlightenment are just experiences that come and go, even big spiritual events, even plain ordinary states, even disembodied/mental states. All of those things happen, but aren't "it" exactly. Some people hate that, some people appreciate it, only you can decide what's right for you. 

The trick with noting is there isn't a wrong thing to note, but there are common mistakes that people make. For example, if you are debating what to note you can consider noting that fact by noting "debating what to note thoughts" or more simply "debating". If you are uncertain, you can note "uncertain". If you have doubts, you can note "doubts". If you are judging your practice, "judging". When things are normal, "normal". When things are calm, "calm". When things are spacious and at peace, note "spacious" and "peace. 

If you feel a sense of looking at things, "looking". Or "hearing". Or "analyzing". Or "evaluating". Or "remembering". Or "comparing". etc. etc. etc. 

As you can see, EVERYTHING becomes fuel for practice, even the things that seem closer than close. That is why this practice strongly supports awakening.

The reason this practice is so effective is that aspects of our self that we want to call "I" are actually just more sensations, emotions, and thoughts that can be objectified as objects occuring in mind. As a result, what we assume to be an "I" gets disiedentified away as just an experience --- slowly, methodically --- and we come to a very direct realization that the I is not a sensation, an emotion, a thought, nor is it some bundling of sensations, emotions, or thoughts. There is a lot of humbling that occurs, but also a lighter sense of being. 

This is a serious practice, that should be acknowledged too. If done with too much aggression, then it can lead to dissassociation and even psychosis. If done with too little exploration, it can stagnate into just noting things that don't cut close to home, so to speak. So it's a practice for an adult that wants to be responsible and seriously pursue this stuff.

Just for fun, because you're into the magick stuff... Have you read Alan's and Duncan's experiments combining meditation and magick? I found their practice to be fun and amusing... good hearted explorations within that context. Here's a link to compilations of their work: Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine.  My practice was much more renunciate/boring, but I found a lot of joy in following along with their practice. 

@shargrol this feel quite synchronismic, yes, I am familiar with Alan & Duncan's books, I was skimming through them just a few weeks ago actually, and I have also been listening to a podcast of theirs. I just now went to your link and started to read the third book "The Urn" from the beginning, and they are talking there about their "false" awakenings they had after attending a meeting with Andrew Cohen. Their description brought to my mind an event I already shortly mentioned a couple of posts up, but as their writing was so similar to what I could say about my own experience, it really got me thinking. It would be interesting to hear your and others' opinions on it.

Something like 3-4 years ago, after some tragic family events I fell into the worst bout of depression yet, I was on sick leave for 10 months. At this time I started working with a therapist with whom I developed a very good working relationship. After a few months of this I had a "peak experience" at home while laying on the couch. I suddenly seemed to understand past trauma as essentially not-real, it was just energetic gunk made essentially by myself having clinged to the identity built on those traumas. I had always harbored this notion that if I could just get to the bottom of it all, maybe remembering some key traumatic event or something, that all the pain would suddenly come crashing down as I would finally have found "the answer" and the first reason for all of it. But now I understood that all of that trauma was not really real, it was in the past and long gone. I had just identified myself with being this traumatized person, and over the years it had become even subconsciously safe to do that and move through the world as this depressed self, because at least then I knew what to expect. 

Anyways, suddenly I saw the trauma was just gunk, mainly in my chest and throat area, and I was pretty much able to just lift it and rub it apart. It was like ash, nothing. This lead during the next few days into an expanding realization that if I was not that depressed individual, then it meant I was actually no individual at all, they were all just roles. What was "I" was this open consciousness looking at the world through my eyes. And this was by no means intellectual rationalization, but a real, gut-level understanding and feeling that this was the truth. It felt like having had heavy wet clothes on for all your life and now suddenly someone took them off and I felt so light and free. 

I remember just sitting several times on a park bench just looking at life going by me and feeling so utterly peaceful and light and just grateful that the weight was gone. All the urges to "do something with my life" which are my default state were gone. I talked this over with the therapist several times, I remember how easy it was to talk of the realization because I wasn't intellectualizing anything, I was just speaking straight from within my being somewhere.

And then I noticed the feeling starting to fade after maybe two weeks (luckily I hadn't made any claims to arahantship like A & D ). Needless to say it felt bad. Ever since I have been trying to understand what happened and how to get back? I have kept the basic understandings from the experience, but now they are more or less just theoretic. I feel hesitant to tell this story, I actually have not talked about it to anyone at this level of detail.

Sat 2 x 30 minutes trying to come to terms with noting. I reduced the noting terms to just "touching","seeing","hearing","tasting" and "thinking". At first I tried to start with noting the breath at the abdomen "rising" and "falling", but I soon noticed there was so much happening that I didn't really have time to do that. Is it supposed to be this busy? I got to the groove pretty well this way, regardless, but yeah there weren't barely any quiet moments per se, something was going on all the time: hearing (birds outside), touching (leg pressing to the cushion), touching (itching ear), thinking (am I doing this right?), hearing (again the birds)...  30 minutes felt uncannily short, like 15 minutes, on both sits. Interesting was how towards the end I noticed some saliva on the side of my mouth, and a thought underpinned by an emotion arose, and just automatically I labeled that one "fear". Interesting.

Yeah, that's the way it works. Noting is more on the vipassina side (insight) and less samatha (tranquility), although the idea of calmly and patiently noting also creates some tranquility too. So noting is more "busy" than awarness of the breath. But what happens -- like you noticed -- is that by diving into the details of lived experience, you also get these little clues on the semi-/unconsious stuff like subtle fears, resistances, etc.  And yes, it's wonderfully active meditation so time can go quickly. (And a trick for the future: even things like boredom and "nothing much happening" actually has a lot of thoughts/emotions/sensations associated with it, so when you hit "slow times" during meditation keep looking into it. What makes slow "slow"? What makes boredom "boredom"? etc.)

Sure, this sort of thing is very commonly reported here. And I've experienced it in several ways myself. These sort of spiritual insights seem to happen by all of a sudden being able to objective aspects of experience that were previously identified with as "me". So in the same way that maybe a teenager learns the difference between "being angry" and "having anger" --- in other words, learning that emotions are not "me" but occur within "me" --- there are different levels of having this same kind of insight through therapy and meditation practice. In therapy, the focus is often on separation from our stories/thoughts. And in therapy and ESPECIALLY meditation, this kind of insight occurs at the level of somatic processing related to the felt sense of "I", which is really hard to describe but it creates more sensitivity and more freedom.

Since you're reading MCTB, pay particular attention to the kind of pure experiences are especially associated with "Equanimity" progress of insight stage. I suspect you'll see the connection. (A&P also has aspects of this, but it sounds to me more like Equanimity)

The common reason people fall out of equanimity is that they overly identify with the very things that mark this stage. Almost "holding on too tightly". They identify with being calm, clear, sensitive, fluid/low-friction, ease, peace....  Equanimity is a great experience but it is also another experience that has to be (moderately) disidentified with.  Instead of "I am calm, ease, at please" a meditation needs to see/say "I am experiencing calm, ease, peace". This little difference then provokes the deeper consideration -- if everything that is experience is within "I", then what IS the I? As you can see, this is an even deeper probing that goes beyond the state of equanimity and this is what leads past false awakenings and into true awakenings. All of this is described in more detail in MCTB.

Hope this helps in some way. 

This sounds similar to experiences that I've had recently -- I guess I wouldn't categorize myself as depressed, exactly, but I've had some deep cathartic experiences related to early emotional trauma, and in my case the releases have "stuck", a month onward.

I don't know that much about your experience, but what struck me about your description is how the "peaceful and light" feeling was something that came to you, following this epiphany, and then gradually faded again. Presumably, the departure of this happy feeling then re-revealed the bad, depressive state that had been there all along. And now you're trying to recover this happy feeling, to lay it on top of the bad again.

In light of my own experience, I'm inclined to say this depiction of the situation is backwards: that the peace and light are closer to a state that is given -- what is there in the absense of anything else. It's the depressive heaviness that is "on top", that is only there because it is constantly being re-created by the work of emotional and psychological habit. You had a moment where you were able to stop "doing" it, but the habits are strong, and they brought that feeling back.

One of the many things to note in meditation is the workings of these habits. We start with sensations and move on from there, and it isn't long at all before you arrive at noting emotions and the "actions" of the mind. And that's where you start to see the habits repeating themselves, and with any luck are able to remind yourself that you don't need to be doing any of that.

My apologies if this is very off! I don't feel comfortable telling other people what they should be doing during meditation, but your framing of the issue was very familiar to me, and I thought this might be a useful perspective.

@shargrol thanks so much again, I think I am getting the hang of noting now. And yes, I think you are very right about holding on too tightly to the experience of insight I described, there was probably quite a lot of fear of losing what was "gained", as the sense of relief was so great compared to what was before. 

Thanks for your insights. And please don't apologise, I feel it's great and a blessing to be able to share these experiences, views and insights.

Noting continues. My usual hindrances of judging myself, impatience and doubt are surfasing reliably. The noting does help with moving past the thoughts as something comes in through the other senses the next second. I have found that you get this different kind of concentrated feeling from doing noting, it's more of a "flow". Still I find that I start to get "automated" with some recurring sensations, and note them beforehand, like just when an in-breath is going to happen I already note "feeling". Gotta stay vigilant I guess.

I don't understand what happened with my physical pains that used to be the greatest problem with my practice; 6 weeks ago I was in agony with neck and back pains after 10 minutes of sitting, now 30 minutes is physically ok? I am not complaining though, just wondering.

@shargrol I read through MTCB2's chapters on Equanimity and Re-observation again. A lot of the things about EQ sounded familiar: "Strangely, some may find the openness, ease, and spaciousness of Equanimity disconcerting, disorienting, or ungrounding, particularly if they have spent a lot of time being in significantly more contracted modes of being. This may cause some to then retreat into those more contracted modes, such as the Dark Night, as that sort of familiar discomfort may actually be more comfortable to them in some strange way than the ease and openness of Equanimity until they get used to it ... The early parts of Equanimity (ñ11.j1) can feel very familiar and “normal”, like we have remembered something simple and good from our childhood. If we felt weary of the world in the Dark Night, we may suddenly find that the world is just fine and we may even become more engaged with and excited about it than before ... Equanimity is like now coasting along on an easy, open, flat, straight road in a beautifully scenic area with no finish line to cross, no specific goal in mind, just effortlessly coasting and enjoying the scenery." 

And about Re-observation, especially: "This stage can mimic or perhaps manifest as some degree of clinical depression."

I have often thought about how depression (Dark Night and Re-observation?) and the depressed self have become so familiar and safe that one automatically falls back on that default mode of being, as it is in a way so easy to be there because you know the surroundings so well. I guess it's become even hardwired to the brain after decades of dwelling there, so it's no wonder it has such a big gravitational pull. On the other hand, I don't really feel like I would have "dropped" down back to depression, actually a lot of those issues are quite firmly behind me now, in big part thanks to the aforementioned "experience" I had. My default mind state for the past few years has been more like some kind of blandness towards questions of meaning, personhood and the future, but I don't feel like I am struggling nearly as much with the big emotional issues as I used to. 

But what I am really wondering here is how is it possible (or is it?) that I would be going through insight stages as my meditation and practice experience is very meager and sporadic? Am I just seeing things and equivalences here, when there actually are none? I have thought (maybe naively) that these are things you go through only on a practice path?

My best guess is that the surface experience of the nanas is very common, but the deeper wisdom/knowledge doesn't usually happen without intent, practice, meditation. In other words, simply experiencing fear, misery, disgust, desire for deliverance, reobservation, and equanimity isn't extremely rare... but understanding what those things are is much more rare.

For example, most of the time, people sort of know that they "are afraid" and maybe can objectify it a little by noticing I "have fear"... but rarely understand that "fear is simply fear, made up of these particular sensations, emotions, and thoughts. it is neither exactly who I am nor completely unrelated to what I am. fear arises so it will pass. I know I could be experiencing something totally different a minute from now. I am not defined by fear" etc. 

​​​​​​​So a surface/deep dynamic is probably the best way to think of it.

It is helpful to draw a distinction between being in fear (being in equanimity) versus gaining the knowledge of the thing.

This nana or knowledge comes about through very structured methodical cultivation of observation skills. It doesnt come about otherwise. And its not a question of how much time one may have spent as compared to somebody else. Its a question of does one have a sufficiently high level of skill in order to gain knowledge and thus wisdom and thus dispassion towards the workings of the mind.

All phenomenological details are relevant only when one is actually doing the practice from which the map has emerged.

Generally, the more intentionally structured and methodical one is, the faster the results. And even here its not about comparing to somebody else.

Continuing sitting, 30 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes in the evening.

I realized I am at the same junction where I've been several times in the past. Doubt and striving start to lift their heads after few weeks of steady practice, and I find myself bogged down with thoughts about "I should do better and more" and nagging at myself for being such a wimp. Then my answer is doubling down and forcing, and that just makes everything harder and harder until I quit.

I toned down the noting as I realized I was using the fast noting as a fly swap, not letting anything really come and go, but hitting them on the head as soon as they even hinted at emerging. And this is just what I like and understand (not in a good way): get stuff done, boom boom boom, strive and do do do. I think I am such a tightly wound individual, that what I think of "taking it easy" is actually pretty busy going.

So the goal is now to get past this first "bog", and I think I need to do almost nothing for that. At least this is a solution I have not tried out yet. 

This is where noting is especially powerful because it is so direct and yet can be so gentle. You don't want to try to change anything, just let it arise as it will. Let doubts arise, the the desire to force things to arise, the desire to just do nothing arise, let striving arise, let anything at all show up.

And then simply try to label one aspect of the experience at a slow/moderate pace.

The intention is not to get rid of anything, improve anything, protect anything, unbury anything... it's simply to see what is happening clearly (vipassina = clear seeing/special seeing).

Over time, the body/mind realizes what is truly helpful and what is an unhelpful old habit. You don't need to force/change anything, the bodymind knows once it sees clearly but most of the time we're operating so instinctually and so fast that we never quite realize what we're doing. Sitting practice allows the opportunity for all of these habitual reactions to show up, but in a setting where we can look closely and intimately feel what is going on.

You're on the right path. The trick is to develop a gentle but consistent daily practice. There is nothing tricky about meditation, but it takes a lot of practice and experience to master these basics.

Thanks once again. I will keep pushing on, gently.

It sounds like you recognize a pattern. That in itself is great. Also, if you always quit at around this point, then by not quitting, you will be in unexplored territory, as you say, which is pretty interesting.  

Yes, not quitting shall be the main goal for now

Nothing much happening, continuing to sit 2 x 30 minutes/day. Mainly just sitting and mostly only noting clearly seen/heard thoughts, inner talk and maybe related feelings if I catch a glimpse of them. Trying to notice on a broader scale, though. There has been a lot of mental chatter going on the past few days, I try not to mind that. My collapsing posture has become somewhat of an annoyance, mostly because it impedes the breath after a certain point. I straighten it out a few times during a sit.

You might be able to circumvent that collapsing posture, by having your arms across chest, with index fingers under armpit, palms held against ribs.
It can also be easier to hold a straight spine with this posture, if you sit with your back pressed firmly against a wall.

This is a posture from kundalini yoga, and I apologize for forgetting the fancy-name of it. It's also really good for deepening and slowing breathing, thus it can be first aid for panic attacks and overwhelming emotions.

Burmese posture and seiza/kneeling with cushions can also make it easier to keep the back straight.

Thanks, I will give it a try. Seiza is actually the only posture I am able to pull off, I have this structural abnormality in my right hip joint, that makes the outer rotation of the femur very restricted.

Thought this might be helpful to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pm-uZyH5Zk
Using ample pillows was a gamechanger for my seiza.
He also has many videos about fixing hip congenital hip issues without surgery.

That link looks like just what I need, thanks!

@aeon I tried the "hands in armpits"-posture, and although it did help with keeping more upright, it fatigued my upper back more, I guess from the added weight of the arms. But, adding just a single pillow more under my hands in my lap seems to have worked wonders, I didn't adjust my posture once this morning! Funny how little things make a big difference. I am an ex-harbour crane operator, and 15 years of that job wreaked havoc on my back and neck, so that is why I fidget so much with all of this physical part. 

Hahaha, Mara, I am not fooled by your promises!

If you feel up for regaining healthy posture, or getting out of pain caused by it, have a look at Simple Mobility Method by Tom Morrison.
I swear it has helped me overcome so much pain, it's insane to even think about.
Pain meaning screaming-can't-sleep-can't-move type of pain.
I had that crouched upper back and the neck pain it brings too, and SMM sorted me out with diligent application.
I know mobility work is like brushing teeth, but best believe it's better to preempt this sort of stuff than wait until the pain comes to get you in old age.
Morality training like this is so important.

I'm gonna check it out. Flong and sexible. I like this guys vibe. 

We just moved to a new apartment, and that caused me to miss my first day of practice. I was back in the saddle today though.

I started to experiment with metta meditation last weekend I think it was. I have been thinking about giving it a shot for a long time, because I often read it helps with procrastination and feelings of worthlessness etc., but haven't gotten around to it because, paradoxically, it has felt like "not real meditation" and thus a waste of time. Go figure.

However, I just started out trying it, feeling clumsy and self-aware [sic], but kept at it and weirdly enough the first 30 minute sit resulted in quite a quick and effortless decent into something resembling access concentration. I have now been able to reproduce this shift several times. I explain this to myself thus: by not concentrating on any "technique" that my self/ego/mind can see as a thing to "get better at" or "do well at", I get around that "too much effort" hurdle, and my mind settles quite easily into a concentrative state. I'm not sure but it seems to work.

I have noticed that after the concentration deepens and opens up, hanging on to the metta becomes in some ways feeling a bit anxious, which is weird, but I have then just let go of that effort and just let the AC happen. Today there was some giggly feeling rising up also, I felt like bursting out into laughter, maybe that was piti? Anyways, this way of doing it feels better than all the rest up until now, so maybe I will just explore it more for the time being.

Metta is such a delightful meditation object, isn't it?
In reading about TWIM, I learned they say the brahma-viharas(metta) can take you all the way to enlightenment; they are a valid path and what the buddha originally taught.

I hear you on the "not real meditation" feeling tho xD I figured I could bypass that by using the feeling of metta as an object for insight practice.
Observing impermanence/flux in that feeling makes it gradually increase too. Win-win.

Still going at it. The move threw my schedules off a bit, but I have still sat every day. I am going back and forth between "just sitting", noting and metta. Metta seems to calm my mind the best, maybe ten minutes of staying with it and I switch to just sitting. At that point it metta starts to feel forced for some reason? I don't know, I find myself feeling guilty for not "having" a single set practice and not sticking to it. But at least I still sit. Following the breath is the worst for me, it throws me straight into control mode and forced, heavy effort.

My mind seems to be getting more and more all over the place, or maybe I am just noticing it more? I have gotten very familiar with all the different voices that pretty much every time seem to make an appearance: the one who worries about how much time is left on the timer, the one who criticises everybody else, the one who second guesses what is right and wrong in meditation, the one who oversees all the others... they are getting quite boring and annoying to hang out with. I notice a strong preference for the sits that result in AC-kind of tranquility, and I also notice worrying about having that preference. Overall I worry a lot.

The other day there was a particularly grueling session, as soon as I started I knew it was going to be hell. My whole being wanted to just get up and stop, the body hurt like hell. In the end I was just going "who is suffering?" in my head, and after the timer bell finally went off I had some weird fractal visions of empty space and a really empty moment. 

I have also been thinking about a particular experience I had years ago. In the middle of a work day I had this moment where I suddenly felt I had stepped into a different universe. I was just where I was but there was none of the usual unconscious predicting the brain does to make you feel like it's pretty obvious what is what and what is likely to happen next. I felt excited, more awake than ever and almost terrified because everything around me was new and I had absolutely no idea what was going to happen next, I would just have to see what was going to happen. Basically I felt I was in the world but it was making itself anew moment by moment and it just felt extremely "alive". Could this have been an A&P event is what I seem to be asking myself. It lasted for maybe 20 seconds but was so powerful that the experience has stayed vivid in my mind. I find I keep on thinking about this kind of things because of the strong pull I feel like having to "finding the answer", other people around me seem to do just fine without the constant pull to find the answers, I am just wondering why I find myself in this limbo where practice seems like the only way out, I really feel like there has been some threshold of not going back broken at some point, but I just can't seem to pinpoint it. I don't know why pinpointing it feels necessary to me.

An initial experience of Equanimity can have this effect. Wonderfully open and direct experience of the present moment. For dark night yogis especially, the first time they stumble onto that, it is very profound --- suddenly a whole different way of relating to life is experienced.

@shargrol thanks!

I am back to noting. Trying to stick to something. I feel like I am getting a bit better glimpses at emotions and the way they rise from thoughts and memories. Also looking at how awareness jumps from one changing thing to another endlessly. Sometimes the rate of noticing gets so fast that I drop the labeling and just try to experience what is happening. I only wish I could use more time to practice, but at the moment there are too many things going on in life. 

If nothing else, at least I am reaping some basic psychological benefits from sitting, I am not as reactive to circumstances as without practice. This by itself makes it very worthwhile.

Noting. Today I noticed how memories of people (for example) seem to be only very rough and crass avatars of the one they refer to, like kid's drawings. Is there something similar in this as in the way that I have noticed incoming sounds played back by the mind in lower bitrate and lower volume? Like that what the mind deals with is just a simple doodle of reality? I may be wrong and maybe this is just confusion.

There seems to be a "noting AC" that happens after I get settled in, as said earlier I drop the noting after the experiencing becomes too wide or fast or inclusive, and then I just sit there noticing the experience. The boundaries of the body become somewhat fluid and I feel like there is just a given amount of perception at a time, like I am not able to experience everything at once; it goes here and then there and then to something else, but there does seem to be a motion and something "taking turns". I don't know how to describe it. 

Why is this "noting AC" different to the other kind of AC that I seem to reach at times when attepting to follow the breath for example? Maybe any of this is not AC at all, hah hah, maybe I am just dreaming   It is keeping me interested, that is something.

EDIT. after reading some other recent posts here I am starting to wonder whether my "AC" is just dullness? I find I have started to fear the "dreaded dullness", I worry about it! Would it be better to just keep on noting even after it feels too slow to catch everything?

You're not confused, Niklas. In my experience, this is how the mind works. The models it creates from past experiences and future projections are not perfect reproductions but rather crude versions that are just recognizable enough. I think of them as icons, like the little images that represent files on my computer desktop. This is a good insight to explore and the ramifications are important.

Thanks so much @Chris M for reaffirming this! I notice that sitting by myself without a group or teacher I get paranoid about what is what and what is not

"Dullness" and "fear of dullness" should just be noted as such. If you can note, you have enough attention - that's the beauty of noting practice. You get consistent feedback on whether you are being/are capable of being mindful. And if you aren't, no big deal, just note the thing that took away mindfulness. Zoning out and then noting dullness, again and again, is actually fine practice. Sometimes sits are like that, no big deal. Keep practicing, straight ahead!

It's very easy to find some experience and make a demon about it. The ego (limited/contracted sense of self) wants constant drama and problems, because then it can "fix it". This is true all along, but it starts becomeing very subtle in more advanced practice... The ego can look for things (slowness, mild dullness, ease, peacefulness) and say those things are evidence that I'm not doing enough, not trying hard enough. But really what is happening is the ego is trying to reinforce it's sense of being essential. The ego gets threatened when the sense of self becomes thinned out. That's why the ego freaks out when things get slow, easy, enjoyable, peaceful... if there is no drama or problem, the ego doesn't need to exist!

This is sneaky stuff and it really does become quite subtle.

It seems like folks coming from the The Mind Illumininated perspective are always a little too freaked out about the spectre of dullness... But if you aware of dullness then "you" are not suffering from dullness, you are the awareness that is aware of dullness. It's a subtle but important point. You are not what you experience, what you experience are simply experiences. The knowing of experiences is you. You are unawake to the extent that you identify with what arises in experience.

@shargrol thanks so much once again

Yes, my fear of dullness also comes from reading the MI Maybe that kind of practice is better for more loosely wired personalities, but as I am all about control and worry, it's probably best to do something else. 

Your words about the subtle ways the ego tries to be important resonate very much with me. It is a cunning beast. I feel like I know that it can't be controlled, and that the only way would be to just let go of it all, but somehow it is still way too much in the foreground, although I feel truly and deeply tired and worn out from watching it's charade year after year.

My big insight after the long bout of depression and therapy, that I mentioned a few posts ago, was exactly about the fact that all the striving of the ego to control everything is not me, that it's just the "action figure" (as Paul Hedderman calls it) trying to make itself the all important center of the universe, despite the fact that it is doomed to fail from the very beginning. During those couple of weeks I truly knew and felt this truth as a living fact, now my words feel like just intellectualizing. This feeling, or memory, of having seen and then the curtains having closed again is what keeps driving me, but it is also frustrating. 

I think I can see the point of noting, I want to believe that after I watch the show going on in the mind for long enough that it must at some point get so boring and preposterous that the crowd will have had enough and they will just turn off the lights and go home. 

The nice thing about ego is that it is "the stick that stirs the fire eventually gets burned away by the fire". In other words, ego isn't really an enemy but it just needs to be used in the right way.

Most meditation practices give the intellectual/busy mind something to do (watch the breath, visualize a scene, note with a verbal label) as a way of using the ego to reveal the ego. All of these practice seem so simple initially, but it becomes clear that after a single minute, the selfish mind gets bored and forgets to watch, visualize, note --- and we need to start again. Starting again doesn't mean we're meditating wrong, not at all! A good sit could be 100 times of begin distracted and 101 times of starting again. That means we practiced waking up 101 times in a sit -- that's good practice.

Meditation basically replaces a childish form of ego with something more mature. The childish form is always looking for personal status, identity, and a sense of feeling "strong" because it unconsciously feels weak, unacknowledged, and unsupported. Even though we're adults, our inner self still feels like it isn't enough. It feels wounded in the present by a past that is no longer here. It worries about a future that hasn't happened and may never happen. It can't handle the fact that there are always some uncertainities in the present moment. Meditation replaces this ego with something grounded in reality. The mature ego can let the past be in the past and can handle uncertainity in the present and knows that the future is unknown in a way that is beyond the mind of a child. The mature ego has a basic level of sanity that is unavailable to the childish ego.

When we sit in meditation, we're safe and completely free to experience the simplicity of this moment... but our childish ego comes up with old undigested problems or new problems about the present moment. If we believe those problems, then we're trapped. But if we are mindful enough to see how these arises as thoughts, visions, emotions, sensations that are basically unconnected with our actual experience of sitting quietly in a room (they are a kind of psychological trance) then slowly we'll see the emptiness of those "problems". Thoughts, visions, emotions, sensations arise and pass --- but that doesn't mean we need to make them into problems.

This work has to be at the experiential level -- knowing the theory doesn't do anything. Reading about it gives us a language to talk about it, but it doesn't give us any actual new skills. All of this has to be experienced many many times in mindfulness otherwise we don't really replace our childish ego with something more mature and grounded in reality. To get good at meditation, we need to have an attitude where we can "fail" many many many many times. Ego is going to trick us many times and we can't take it personally. 

We have to understand that the body itself needs to be trained to drop old habits, but the only way to do that is through lots of low effort experiences. It's just like learning to physically balance. We can't "decide" to balance and we can't make ourself balance by "thinking". And "trying really hard" to balance doesn't help us learn any faster. If anything we just need to have an easy and playful attitude. We have to stand on an narrow beam and gently try to balance and know that we're going to fall many many many many times. Eventually we balance a little longer and a little longer... and it's not something we "decide to do", no the body just _knows_ somehow.

This is exactly the same thing with meditation. We need lots of gentle practice, lots of falling, but eventually we learn a whole new way of balancing --- which is rooted in the body itself, not the intellectual mind.

Keep going!

Yeah, and sometimes the crowd stays around and just enjoys the preposterious show, knowing it is just a preposterous show.    The show isn't the problem, not really. It's the vain and grumpy attitude of the crowd. A meditation learns to have a sense of humor about the show of their mind.  Kenneth Folk once said "my super power is that I don't believe my thoughts".

Looks like it's been three weeks since I last updated this. I have been sitting daily and noting, although because of life changes I have only been able to do one session/day for the most part. 

The practice feels in some ways boring but I still do it. I seem to get that "10% happier" ala Sam Harris -effect; I am probably slightly more fun to be around with. Nothing exceptional has come up, except this morning I noticed this under current of thought going on beneath or behind the more obvious nagging and commenting voices. It was so subtle somehow that I found it really hard to note it? I mean I could follow it going on but making a mental-verbal note of it seemed almost impossible. Would that be the "one who notes" himself? I dunno, but i have been wondering that there must be that one "voice" who notes the others? Who is that? ...or maybe I was just confused

I have been sitting once a day in the mornings. I even bought a real nice quality zafu to sit on, until now I have been sitting on an old basketball Practice feels somehow "hazy", I sit down and note or do shikantaza, but it's usually pretty messy, thoughts flying here and there and nagging and second guessing going on. I have noticed a lot of thoughts about death, fear and anger coming up in my day-to-day life, which is not very nice, but somewhat to my own surprise they don't stick that well. Not much to say.

I've heard in Sweden that Finns can't suffer from depression if they do bastu and then jump into ice cold water afterwards! uh oh! Not something for me but I'm planning to try it out!  

​​​​​​​Best wishes with your practice and welcome to DhO! 

Thanks! I can actually vouch for cold water swimming/showers and sauna as very good dopamin boosters

I have been sitting every morning, time has come down to 20 minutes, because of practical family issues. I am "just sitting". Nothing fancy has happened, mostly I just have come to notice how every time I sit down it is different. Sure there are the cornerstones of "me"; nagging, time-guessing, the exalted one... but every day is really a different one seemed like an insight at the time but now seems laughable. But yes, I am just sitting.