How is there a magical realm beyond conditioning?

And I'm supposed to work really hard to condition my mind to be able to reach a level beyond conditioning?

This seems like magical nonsense.

How am I supposed to have faith in it?

Buddha seems like he was a smart dude but this escaping casualty seems to require a leap of faith similar to any other religious dogma.

​​​​​​​If I could brainwash myself into believing it maybe I could start conditioning myself hard to achieve it... But I can't because it's a contradiction...

Does "an experience untainted by greed, aversion, or indifference" seem possible? That might be a better way to say it.

The path is more a matter of developing a practice that trains you to drop psychological defense mechanisms and egoic clinging/narcissism and progressing over time to having simple and direct experiences, rather than the drama that we normally experience. Enlightenment isn't that different from basic sanity.

The buddha basically sat still and dropped habits of greed, aversion, and indifference as they arose in his mind. Lots and lots of times of simply dropping the egoic clinging instinct. Sure, it gets complicated (there are nana and jhanas and paths, etc etc) but it all comes back to the simple act of sitting still; letting things arise in the mind;  noticing whether greed, aversion, or indifference arises;  noticing that greed, aversion, or indifference causes suffering; and then dropping whatever the particular greed, aversion, or indifference is because you have seen directly how it causes suffering. And then it's just a matter of doing this enough to get good at it.

The dropping of conditioning isn't really more conditioning, in the same way that the dropping of insanity isn't more insanity. The dropping of insanity is sanity. The dropping of conditioning is clarity and freedom, you could say. 


It's actually pretty common to have intellectual debates about practice/maps/philosophy while sitting, but it's important to notice and note "doubt" "intellectualizing" "philosophizing" etc. when this stuff arises. Getting good at meditation is all about learning to drop the "thinking about" meditation and returning to just the doing of meditation: the noticing and noting of sensations, emotions, and thoughts as they arise.


​​​​​​​Hope this is helpful in some way.

I think you might be starting with an unhelpful question. It's sort of like never having seen under the hood of a car, and then trying to speculate what's under there, making everything work. You gotta open the hood and look around.

No conclusions are necessary at the start. And most serious practitioners don't describe their realization as a magical unconditioned realm. (Though I know some do.) 

Instead, maybe try being curious. What happens when I sit still and note the rise and fall of my breath? What happens if I notice how things come and go, and how thoughts, feelings, and sensations arise and pass beyond my conscious control? What happens if I keep playing with this according to the provided instructions? Maybe you'll learn something from experience, and have the opportunity to put it to your own words in a fresh way. 

​​​​​​​(Edited for clarity)

The Buddha's words describing results have to be taken as a hypothesis to be tested. Once you accept this hypothesis, the Buddha's further guidance is on methods to be used in order to test the hypothesis.

It takes a lot of discipline and regularity and perseverance but it is possible to do this in a finite amount of time. How much time it takes is different for different people. I have met people who have done this in months and not years. A few common attributes across these people are:

1. The willingness to be very structured and methodical. To plan their work and work their plan.
2. To aproach meditation as a very important activity but at the same time be lighthearted and playful about it.
3. To follow instructions rather than have a debate about them in their own heads

It is only the dagger of dukkha stuck in our hearts that motivates us to practice. Combine this with the company of people who seem mostly sane and rational and .... mostly .... well behaved , who say they have achieved something valuable and we have a regular consistent well planned practice.

    Deconditioning the mind is not the same as conditioning it. What the buddha wanted people to do and what buddhists actually do are often different. 

   Your mind is not what you think it is. Mind encompasses all. Your faith is just another bump in the road. The buddha doesn’t want your faith. He wants you to practice.

   You are a 98 pound weakling and the buddha is charles atlas. The buddha is a model of wakefulness, of mindfulness, and you, well…

   The buddha tells you, the prophets tell you, they are just people like you who have discovered exercise, practice, and can make their minds free of conditioning. The proofs are in their effects, and their affects.

   All we want you to do is sit quietly for fifteen minutes a day for a week. If you do that, your questions will be categorically answered. You will know.

   Simple as that.

   

Actually most people only pretend to look under the hood and exercise magical thinking.
People treat meditation practice as towing car to mechanic and waiting for it being repaired with all the effort they put in to practice being the payment for repair.

<br />How is deconditioning not more conditioning?<br /><br /><br />I've done that for months @ a time, definitely still don't know.<br /><br />Thanks for all the replies tho.&nbsp; I guess I should just let go &amp; try to meditate without necessarily trying to buy-into or understand all the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo (nibbanna, going beyond my humanness, perfect seeing, etc)

Something about a thorn to remove a thorn.

If you're referring to karma or rebirth, then I agree: that's magical thinking. You don't need to believe in it. However, people say that nibbana is a state of bliss, so it seems worth pursuing.

Nibbana may not be metaphysical but an actual neurological phenomenon. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3837242/#B25

Hi user8, yes that's what keeps me motivated.

I said:

Deconditioning the mind is not the same as conditioning it.



You said:

How is deconditioning not more conditioning?   


————————————————————


   “Cleanse the doors of perception and you will see the world as it is: Infinite.”
~william blake


   Deconditioning is a very simple idea: the removal or abatement of conditioning. But  I admit it begs the question, “what is conditioning” and the answer to that gets into some serious buddhist metaphysics.


 “Discourse on the nature of Dhamma. All that is conditioned is Impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self.

“Bhikkhus, whether Tathāgatas appear or do not appear, there is this established element of Dhamma, this fixed law of Dhamma: All that is conditioned is impermanent. A Tathāgata fully awakens to this, and fully understands it. So awakened and thus understanding, he announces, points out, declares, establishes, expounds, explains, and clarifies it: All that is conditioned is impermanent. (Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā’ti)

“Bhikkhus, whether Tathāgatas appear or do not appear, there is this established condition of Dhamma, this fixed law of Dhamma: All that is conditioned is unsatisfactory. A Tathāgata fully awakens to this, and fully understands it. So awakened and thus understanding, he announces, points out, declares, establishes, expounds, explains, and clarifies it: All that is conditioned is unsatisfactory. (Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’ti)

“Bhikkhus, whether Tathāgatas appear or do not appear, there is this established condition of Dhamma, this fixed law of Dhamma: All Dhammas are without self. A Tathāgata fully awakens to this, and fully understands it. So awakened and understanding, he announces, points out, declares, establishes, expounds, explains, and clarifies it: All Dhammas are without self.” (Sabbe dhammā anattā’ti.)



   Conditioning involves identification and clinging. All thinking involves identification and clinging. Even “I am clinging, I am identifying” involves clinging and identification. All self consciousness, all commentary and judgment, all deliberate effort to control events or solve problems, all involve identification.

   The function of meditation is to reveal this conditioning to us, not to immediately attain nibbana. As it gradually dawns on us that all our thinking is spinning our wheels and revving our engines we can begin to cool out.

   Your question as to why deconditioning isn’t conditioning comes into play at this point, when you are sitting and you begin to realize that your thinking is both pathological and out of control. In meditation we observe our thoughts and at first they are chaotic and ungovernable. Or they are whatever you find them to be but actually sitting with a quiet mind is not immediately achievable.  And this is what is meant by conditioning, this ongoing stream of self-consciousness, self-identification and clinging that “self” cannot control.

=========================




I said:


All we want you to do is sit quietly for fifteen minutes a day for a week. If you do that, your questions will be categorically answered. You will know. 


you said:

I've done that for months @ a time, definitely still don't know.
Thanks for all the replies tho. I guess I should just let go & try to meditate without necessarily trying to buy-into or understand all the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo (nibbanna, going beyond my humanness, perfect seeing, etc)



———————————————————


From meditating you know the condition of your mind. That it identifies and clings, that your thinking is not in the controll of any self. You have direct experience of these conditions. Every day for months at a time.

One may make spiritual progress in many ways, often by leaps and bounds, but meditation is gradual, like exercising muscles. Your muscles don’t immediately get big when you start practicing, they don’t immediately get small when you stop. 

Meditate for your long term mental and emotional health. For the good of the planet. For the sake of your spiritual companions.


This is not to say there isn’t the magical, wonderful, blissful experience you have had dangled before you. Mumon said that the buddha “sold dog’s head for mutton” and there’s a good deal of razzle dazzle, chicanery and fireworks implied and even delivered, pretty much as a grand joke. We amuse ourselves with metaphysics during the long slow process of cooling out, but it is the daily practice and its gradual extension to every aspect of our lives that is the true transformation.

Without “greed, aversion and indifference” we live  lives of kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity.

tony asks:

How is there a magical realm beyond conditioning?

And I'm supposed to work really hard to condition my mind to be able to reach a level beyond conditioning?

==============================

​​​​​​​

The answers seem to add up to "no" and"no." But I really want to say with enthusiasm yes! and yes!


This is the magical realm! Stop jabbering and wake up! The aware are ever grateful.

And mindfulness is hard work. We're all about clinging to sleep, sex, food (the big three). It's hard to detach, to unplug, to settle down and meditate. We are so used to performing tasks and receiving our pellets that sittting idle seems sinful: we should be grabbing everything we can while we can.

Of course, the red pill is always available. There's wine, women and song (beer, the old lady, tv).

And yes, it takes faith to practice when there seems to be no progress and no progress is actually kind of the goal.

The problem here is that practicing for the sake of the reward is self defeating. You only strengthen the ego by practicing with much desire.

So your conclusion that you should set aside the metaphysics and just practice is correct. But when the fruits of practice begin to accumulate, the metaphysics will make sense and be helpful. Studying the suttas and the literature will give you the language and concepts to make sense of your meditative experiences as they occur.

There are simple, correct answers to these questions that actually do contradict each other. In nonduality this does not lead to confusion.

Have faith and practice if that seems right to you intuitively. Or take the red pill as most do and don't worry about it. 




here's a sufi quote:


Spiritual knowledge is nothing but this: that there is a constant longing in the heart of man to have something of its origin, to experience something of its original state, the state of peace and joy which has been disturbed, and yet is sought after throughout its whole life, and never can cease to be sought after until the real source has at length been realized. What was it in the wilderness that gave peace and joy? What was it that came to us in the forest, the solitude? In either case it was nothing else but the depth of our own life, which is silent like the depths of the great sea, so silent and still. It is the surface of the sea that makes waves and roaring breakers; the depth is silent. So the depth of our own being is silent also.

And this all-pervading, unbroken, inseparable, unlimited, ever-present, omnipotent silence unites with our silence like the meeting of flames. Something goes out from the depths of our being to receive something from there, which comes to meet us; our eyes cannot see and our ears cannot hear and our mind cannot perceive because it is beyond mind, thought, and comprehension. It is the meeting of the soul and the Spirit.from Volume VII, In an Eastern Rose Garden, Silence
by hazrat inayat khan
 

The Buddha said come and see for yourself. You are not asked to believe you are asked to experience and once you have touched the unconditioned you will believe IMO.