Householder duties or meditation?

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Tony Norris, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 4:34 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 4:34 AM

Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 55 Join Date: 6/9/23 Recent Posts
Which should be prioritized or is it a false dichotomy?
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Jim Smith, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 5:47 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 5:47 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 1750 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Tony Norris
Which should be prioritized or is it a false dichotomy?


In my opinion I would say it depends on the specifics of the situation. Sometimes one might have higher priority sometimes the other depending on exactly what is going on.

Can you do your householder duties mindfully?
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 6:54 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 6:45 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 2523 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
We have to be responsible adults. If meditation helps with that, great. If we're avoiding our responsibilities by blindly believing that meditation will fix everything... that's not so good. Meditation supports waking up to your own life, to waking up IN your own life. So it's a good idea to make your life as good as it can be. 

Most of the problems/challenges we have in life --- sleep, food, clothes, housing, education, career, physical health, relationships --- are not directly meditation related, so sitting in meditation and hoping that everything will be fixed is not a very good strategy. Mental health is definitely related/supported by meditation, but mental health is also a lot easier if sleep, food, clothing, housing, education, career, physical health, and relationships are good. emoticon There are more direct ways of working on mental health through different therapies/counciling, too. 

The best strategy is to work directly on reponsibilities/problems in our own life. Don't be intimidated by big projects or big goals. It's okay to be inspired by big ideas, but day to day it's important to focus on the smallest next step that needs to be done. Then the next smallest step. We all need to train ourselves to get good at "what is the next smallest step I can take to make progress on this?" And then take that step right away. You might find there are 5 small steps you can do. Do them, and the path ahead will become even clearer. And sometimes it's not something we can do right away, sometimes it's more research that needs to be done, sometimes it's asking for specific advice from people who are doing/living what we want to do/live. We can't know everything about how to create a good life, we need to ask others for information/advice along the way.

(Be very brave in talking with other people, this really is the fastest way to learn and eventually make progress. Just be respectful and try not to waste people's time. Be as prepared as you can be before you ask your questions.)

You can create a good life with a lot of small steps. It's up to you to decide how to spend your time and live your life. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 8:41 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 8:41 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 2860 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Before awakening
chop wood carry water. 
After awakening 
chop wood carry water. 
During the practice of awakening,
chop wood carry water. 
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 8:42 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 8:42 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

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much more concise than me emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 8:49 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 8:49 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 2860 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Ha! emoticon You do talk a lot! Just look at the blog Pepe compiled for you! emoticon emoticon oh my, it's getting thicker and thicker! 

Just kidding! Hope to read that book of yorn soon! emoticon 
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Pawel K, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 9:44 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 9:31 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

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Household duties is an activity you do and meditation is something which happens (when you let it)... why the assumption of mutual exclusivity between the two?

Can you describe what you think "meditation" means?
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Tony Norris, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 10:12 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 10:12 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 55 Join Date: 6/9/23 Recent Posts
Meditation is sitting down in quiet and observe your brain and eventually... I dunno it's supposed to be good for you like broccoli, I've never getting much of a big bang hence why I keep quitting.
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 12:25 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 10:17 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

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What are you going to trust, people telling you that you "should" do something... or your own actual experience?
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Pawel K, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 3:38 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 3:38 PM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Meditation is not about what you do but what you not do.
There is impulse to act - if it arises and doesn't already feel like jhana let it pass. If it does you are mindful of it, nothing else.
If you actually act you develop non-meditation and if you let it pass and are mindful of jhana you develop meditation.

Also when you notice sensations it is not only one way experience. Notice them while meditating and they will relatively quicker learn what meditation is. Notice them when you are not meditating and your gaze will be like hindrance. It takes forever to have quote on quote "you" learn what meditation is.

It makes some sense to make internal issue expressed externally like you do - be there doing stuff or be mindful meditating. The solution is to fold it inside and be in the world while meditating. I am also convinced once you do it you will realize there is enough of time as it is for having fun with formal meditation. Quality over quantity emoticon
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Tony Norris, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 4:12 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 4:12 PM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 55 Join Date: 6/9/23 Recent Posts
shargrol
What are you going to trust, people telling you that you "should" do something... or your own actual experience?


Both probably, other people have perspective I don't
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Tony Norris, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 4:16 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 4:16 PM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

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Ni Nurta Meditation is not about what you do but what you not do. There is impulse to act - if it arises and doesn't already feel like jhana let it pass. If it does you are mindful of it, nothing else. If you actually act you develop non-meditation and if you let it pass and are mindful of jhana you develop meditation. Also when you notice sensations it is not only one way experience. Notice them while meditating and they will relatively quicker learn what meditation is. Notice them when you are not meditating and your gaze will be like hindrance. It takes forever to have quote on quote "you" learn what meditation is. It makes some sense to make internal issue expressed externally like you do - be there doing stuff or be mindful meditating. The solution is to fold it inside and be in the world while meditating. I am also convinced once you do it you will realize there is enough of time as it is for having fun with formal meditation. Quality over quantity emoticon


I don't know what jhana is, only know of it.

There is some value from sitting thru the urge to act but the satisfaction from it isn't very strong.  Ok, I tried to keep my obsessions & compulsions @ bay for 20 minutes, now what?  Maybe I'm too greedy to want more than just that but I want more than just that.
shargrol, modified 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 5:30 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/16/23 5:30 PM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 2523 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
What if you studied that greediness some more?

That's the value of meditation: all the things that appear to kick you off the cushion are probably urges/reactions that also appear in your off-cushion life and probably mess things up there as well. 

That's the sort of stuff that keeps people sitting. They stop believing their reactivity and instead start investigating it. And they realize, shit this reactivity happens all the time... and the reactivity starts to be less attractive and life gets better... but it takes that investigation, that curiousity.

It's more than just sitting. If sitting was the important thing, then chickens would be enlightened. emoticon
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Pawel K, modified 9 Months ago at 9/17/23 10:34 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/17/23 10:34 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 1172 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
Hello again,

Knowing beforehand wouldn't even be helpful. Just another thing to confuse you is meditation while it isn't.

Meditation isn't about satisfaction. It should lack any desire for satisfaction, relief or any such hindrances. Lack not as in suppression but just lack these. Remember some happy days from the past where things just were all good and you felt happy without hint of needing anything to change to the point you only realized it after it ended. Meditation is like this. Most normal mundane neutral experience if you remove all the desire for satisfaction/relief becomes meditation and is very pleasant in most normal and equanimous way possible.

BTW. This isn't about any surrender or anything like that.
You do not surrender your will - your just choose to not react to stuff to which reacting is seen as unskillful. There is subtle but very important difference. Actually not subtle at all - meditation in a way feels like extreme resistance toward any hindrances. Not in blocking them but just not letting them through by consciously deciding no such actions should be made.

From the point of view of actual meditation there is that side of experience - it is a mirror.
On this other side, of the observer, is where things happen and there is actual consciousness of it all. Not having experiences of hindrances is conscious decision. If it feels like you cannot change decision of how some experience arises - you just look at wrong side. Trying to change image in the mirror is silly emoticon

To reiterate this important point: what happens in the field of experience - that side you experience it on is not where you make changes. There is other side where you are already conscious of making decisions to literally react to given experiences of hindrances. If it feels disconnected look for it. There s also difference between this and just noticing sensations as they happen in the mirror - rather than waiting for part of brain to figure out what it is supposed to do why not change it consciously? Consciousness do not bite if you do not bump in to their mirror reflection emoticon

Topic of meditation, various types of jhanas, paths, etc. is inexhaustible - oh the things that mind can do, amazing! Still it feels all the same where it comes to how good it feels and how non-dukkha it all feels. There is really nothing to attain other than being able to impress oneself with "progress" in making things look nothing like they looked before and having obscure insights and skills of how to change experiences emoticon

Meditation is however simple when it comes to being in meditation. Only beginnings are jittery and when you faulter and forget what is the goal. It is worth it to learn it. It is for all intents and purposes IS the liberation Buddha talked about.

Metta Fruitions,
Ni
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terry, modified 9 Months ago at 9/17/23 4:25 PM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/17/23 4:25 PM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
shargrol


It's more than just sitting. If sitting was the important thing, then chickens would be enlightened. emoticon


Chickens are enlightened. One may study with chickens and learn important life lessons. All animals, insects, trees, grasses, waves clouds...it's all enlightened.

After all, the stock pickin' chicken routinely beat the experts.


Meditation is a householder duty.


Just sitting we stop interfering and begin to appreciate.



from "boogie music" by canned heat:

​​​​​​​(You must make Boogie Music an essential factor in the life of all
Presenting this song to the world, we must then explain it, justify our position by formulating a definition of Boogie Music and setting forth its main principles in such a way that all may understand instantly that their souls, their lives and every relation with every other human being in every circumstance depends on Boogie Music and the right comprehension and right application thereof)
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terry, modified 9 Months ago at 9/18/23 12:06 AM
Created 9 Months ago at 9/18/23 12:05 AM

RE: Householder duties or meditation?

Posts: 2531 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta


Meditation is however simple when it comes to being in meditation. Only beginnings are jittery and when you faulter and forget what is the goal. It is worth it to learn it. It is for all intents and purposes IS the liberation Buddha talked about.

Metta Fruitions,
Ni






​​​​​​​yes!

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