Hello,
I was directed to this place by a friend who said a lot of interesting things were happening wrt awakening/attainments, as well as a good place to gain some vocabulary wrt meditation maps, etc. 

I've read through many of these threads and found a few things that resonate, but none of them sound like my awakening experience.

I'm not exactly in need of help, but thought I might (since I found myself here) tell the quick version, in hopes that it may help someone else, or who knows. As Charles Bukowski said in the Laughing Heart, "the gods will offer you chances, know them, take them."

I did not ask for or solicite my awakening. I am a lifelong atheist with almost zero "spiritual" or religious training/interest beyond what I would call artistic curiosity and entertainment value. I have read and finished exactly three books in this space, and those were really just entertainments. These were: Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson, The Impersonal Life by Joe Benner, and the book by Ouspensky about his time with gurdjieff. 
and again, these were entertainments in the pursuit of good weed and maybe some mushrooms as a twenty something. I'm now 56. 

I apologize if I offend anyone with the words and terms I will use but they have really been cobbled together in the last three months in an attempt to define my experience, and stabilize the upheaval that followed. I basically combed YouTube and watched people like Angelo Dilollo, Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang, etc, as well as done some investigations into Jung and the Buddhist and Hindu communities on Reddit. 

I had a small blissful awakening in approx 2003 that came out of nowhere, and since I didn't have a language or a background in any of it. It closed back up. I tried to make it happen again, but it didn't, and I eventually gave up thinking, this is all bullshit.

I went about my life, raising my three children, married, and running and building a plumbing, contracting business.

Approximately three months ago, it happened again. Only this time it was much much bigger, and I knew what it was. I went off like a rocket, started spilling my guts all over the Internet, shouting things like Christ is seated on the throne in the kingdom of heaven and other such nonsense. I have been a musician and a writer (as hobbies) for most of my adult life. I was fortunate enough to run into two very awesome people on a writing forum who recognized what was happening and were kind enough to very skillfully calm me down and get me pointed in the right direction. I'm happy to answer questions but don't want to bore anyone with unsolicited details. 

these are the things I'm sure of, but the reality is impossible to explain in any meaningful way, so I won't try unless asked directly. 

I was under tremendous anxiety with work and the prospect of my business going under, while sitting on the couch watching something (no idea what) when the mal-adapted ego realized that it was not the real me, and shut off. I had a week or so of really unproductive bliss and joy followed by a lot of darkness coming up and purging itself in spurts. 
It was hard but the two people I mentioned sort of tag teamed to keep me going and Infor through it. 

hallmarks of the situation today:

a seemingly limitless compassion machine. Mostly effortless perpetual mindfulness/meditation, and a knowing that as long as I limit resistance, this thing is going to complete its work, and that's about it. I know there is more to come, but I have no idea what, and even trying to wonder about it constitutes resistance. Anything like a "practice" or "system" seems completely unnecessary and even counter productive so far. The best things I've heard are "believe no thought" and "don't resist." 

​​​​​​​Don't know when the rest will land. it could be tomorrow, or on my deathbed.

I guess the main idea about meditation practice is that it gives us a way to "believe no thought" and "don't resist" in a slightly formalized way so that we take some responsibility for our further development. In otherwords, it's true that awakenings happen beyond our control --- they are sort of a gift from beyond ourself --- but there are things we can do to honor the gift and have it develop more completely.

This website/community originally came together because there were a lot of people who had some experiences, had some spiritual openings, but who also realized that consistent, gentle, daily, non-heroic practice (and wise use of meditation retreats) actually worked!   In other words, we didn't have to wait around to be blessed again with a spiritual opening, we could actually do practices that encouraged it. 

These days this website is a bit thin on people regularly practicing and reporting their progress... but there are folks that are lurking and offer help to people who are engaging in a heart-felt regular practice.

Hope you'll ask whatever questions you might have about practice --- if that interests you.

For what it's worth, I didn't really see how practice "worked" until my 40's, despite having several spotaneous awakening experiences in the previous decades. I can tell you that there was a lot of deeper and more grounded development that happened after I decided to maintain a regular practice (and go on some multi-day retreats), so I encourage you to get curious about this kind of thing if you are interested. Practice/systems provide a support for further development -- they really do -- but you kind of have to understand how they actually do this, otherwise it seems (and is) just a bunch of silly role playing or fiddling around. 

Basically, practice involves formally identifying those remaining areas of darkness, going into them, and purging them even more. Regular practice is much less intense (most of the time) than the spontaneous openings which send us on roller coaster rides. But it really helps clean up the mind/psyche. And the result is being able to live from a new baseline of openness, not all contracted in our little sense of self.

That said, this sort of stuff doesn't fix all our problems, despite how people/traditions market "enlightenment". We still got to go to work and dealing with family still has friction, etc etc. But we develop a kind of resilient intimacy with our life that really is rewarding. A lot of us just call it basic adult sanity, because even though there is a lot of woowoo that we go through, where we end up is in a very normal place. People who go far with this meditation stuff aren't floating in the air with light shining out of their butthole, they're actually some of the more normal and sane people you would meet. When we face and clean up our inner darkness, we don't have much to defend or much to prove to others.

So that's my sales pitch.    Welcome to DhO! 

aloha brian,

   I suspect you will keeping having revelations until you stabilize the fundamental point, the essential insight.

   Then practice will become natural and necessary for spiritual health maintenance.





gurdjieff certainly was an entertainer, though I thought ouspensky's best boolk was the psychology of man's possible evolution, before he became obsessed with "the system," which for gurdjieff was more of a lark...something to filll the minds of his followers while he had them doing meaningless activities...aka "the harmonious development of man"...

beelzebub's tales to his grandson is one of the great books of human literature, and also just entertaining science fiction...

"Then practice will become natural and necessary for spiritual health maintenance."

Shit I wish that worked on my hemorrhoids! 
Maybe they are not spiritual enough?  

perhaps you are sitting too much...

​​​​​​​maybe an o-ring on the cushion?

yes, this is what's happened. It has slowly stabilized and meditation has become essential. In retrospect I can see how a slow, gradual awakening would have been better. The upheaval of the sudden happening was terrible as well as wonderful. The bliss was incredible, but now that it has faded it's replaced by something else I can't find words for. I still have nobody I could share it with, and at first that felt terrible but as insight deepens that becomes unimportant. It is intensely personal at most levels.  It can be integrated into everyday life, and becomes a part of everything I do or say or see or hear. The less I resist the deeper it goes. The mystery opens up and life just happens. 

my sleep has changed dramatically. I sleep a couple of hours at a time and wake for an hour or so to meditation. Then sleep for a couple more hours and wake to meditation. I may not be getting as much sleep as I did before, but I feel much better. 

I slowly quit my addictions and vices and started cooking my own food, stopped eating fast food and junk food. This wasn't something I decided I needed to do, just something that became obvious at some point. 

"spiritual" practice and thought has become irrelevant and unhelpful and/or uninteresting. Reading books about it or watching videos holds nothing beyond entertainment value and I rarely want to do it. 

there is still more to come. I have no idea what exactly, but I can feel intuitively that this isn't the final stage. Which isn't really a good word "stage", there are really no stages possible in any of it. It's like a slow melting of self, leaving what always was. Sounds corny, I know, but I can't think of another way to say it.
​​​​​​​

I feel the same way, I had a very sudden spontaneous awakening too, with little to no preparation. I knew what it was when it happened but I was not ready for what came next. In retrospect, I regret not taking my mental health more serious, but I guess something like this was needed to get me out of my stubborn know-it-all mentality. Good luck to you with your continuing awakening.

There are "flat spots" (I'll call them) where progress seems to slow or even stop. Sometimes I get those thoughts that say "this is crazy" or "you're imagining the whole thing." 

I still just notice those thoughts and sink back into the soup. No longer irritated by them but just watching them come and go. I get the small emotional hit of reaction then with some effort, instead of pushing them away or "stuffing them down" just sit with them, and they go. 

lately there have been inclings of ideas to initiate a more formal sitting practice. Well, not formal in the sense of time or place, but more posture. It might just be my thoughts throwing up something to distract me, but I keep getting "signs" that it might be more important than I originally thought. Maybe it will bring something else? I don't know. 

but when I hit one of these "flat spots" it bubbles up and I notice things that might be pointing that direction. 

almost all of my meditation practice is in the laying position for concentration. Sometimes mindfullness from there and sometimes concentration•which started with kasina but I've since not needed the light because I can see the shape or focal point without it in the haze behind the eyelids. Not the colors and morphing patterns, but a focal point I can stay on or redirect to. 

otherwise I try to practice mindfullness constantly while awake. While driving, sitting, listening, talking, working, chores. 

does anyone feel that sitting upright is "different" or might add a new dimension?

I'd recommend you read this - 

4-the-arising-and-passing-away

The whole book is good and free!
You are descibing the A&P stage and then the following stages....might as well learn them as you will continue to cycle thru them most likely.
​​​​​​​
Good Luck,
~D

Thanks. Good time to read this. 

I am very against any ideas which sound like "don't resist".
Lots and lots of issues with such ideas.

I am more "don't make general statements which will guide you" and "each case should be taken separately and investigated thoroughly because there might be nuances in it which makes previous solutions to seemingly similar cases not be such a good idea" kind of guy ;)

In fact there are cases where it is absolute resistance which is the right solution and there are cases where it has to be specific amount of resistance - not too little but not too much. Then of course there exist cases where as little resistance as possible is the right way. It all depends.


It is nice to improve habits.
My personal recommendation is however to unlink anything from lifestyle from your mood or presumed spiritual progress and not give in compelling arguments about causal relations because the whole manic episode you have might just as well go the other way and then the same tendencies will compell you to reinforce bad habits - as in additional reason to cling to idea of influence of one things to the other. It is much better to separate out your behavior out of conditions and just improve it like that, separately. That way you loose additional reasons for your lows and highs to influence your behavior. And this is especially important because actually healthy lifestyle acts more slowly to improve things than damage done by bad lifestyle.

Otherwise you say there is some awakenings or something but I don't really see what from and what to you are awakening. It all sounds like meditation induced trip. Not that there is anything wrong with that but imho it is good to keep that perspective at the back of your mind and use it to scale down any ractions you might have to what you think is happening

I may have given the impression otherwise, but I am right in the pocket you are talking about. I couldn't have been high from meditation because I never meditated.

How do you define meditation?

There are different intepretations as to what counts as meditation and what counts as something else.
To me it is neither just sitting nor sitting with method (eg. how shamatha or vipassana are described) but specifically the prosess of automatic optimalization based on loss function.

I see where you’re going, and yeah, I like and understand your definition. That’s exactly what it feels like. At this point I have a very broad definition, you nailed it the way you put it.I recently read Daniel’s book and in the “spontaneous awakening” model he says something very similar, and expresses some skepticism about “spontaneous awakenings.” Something like: if you go back and look carefully you’d probably find there was some kind of “practice” going on, even if the practitioner was unaware of it. 
Before the switch flipped I wasn’t unaware of “meditation.” I knew that people could apparently watch themselves think kind of like a movie. I understood the concept (sort of) and had heard people describe it here and there. The few times I’d tried ended in a few seconds, or maybe a minute. I was always artistic and had this artists notion that good art just came from the ether somewhere. Like Bukowski’s notion of “don’t try.”Just wait for it to come. Like, if “the gods” sort of picked you, they’d give you a nugget you could run with. 
I can also see how a person could think things like “this is god” or something/someone/the universe is directing this, but I understand that thought is ALSO a thought. Not that I don’t frequently get caught in thought or emotions, I do. There is very little identification with them left. Most of the big things have fallen away but the subtle things are harder but just as important. 
I read some of your comments about “systems” being bs, and agree. Not because they are totally unhelpful but they can become a trap very easily. From the beginning I’ve had this intuitive sense to stay away from systems or organized practices. What we’re doing is unbinding the layers of conditioning (or whatever word you want to use), and the only teacher that can teach this is you yourself. The level of intimacy is so personal that nobody and nothing could navigate it for or even with you. Not saying people can’t recognize where you’re at and point at things, they can and do all the time. And as you are ready to understand them, you do. 
Appreciate you poking me. It’s been helpful. 






​​​​​​​

It's onto radical noting or noticing (when appropriate). This is much easier when I'm alone. I'm trying to bring it into every aspect of my life, but I get caught up in "roles" when I'm with others. Employees, the family, business meetings. I notice in interactions that I've lost it and gotten caught, and bring it back. I wonder if people notice I'm acting weird, or staring, or whatever, and I "notice" that thought as well. 

the last few days it starts as soon as I wake up and have even noticed the "noting" impulse in sleep, or that hazy in between phase of sleep, not quite dreaming, not fully awake. Trying to remember not to decide or conclude anything about anything. How far can it go? I don't know. How far will it go? I don't know. Where will it end? I don't know. How long will it take? As long as it takes. How will I know when it's done? I don't know. 

​​​​​​​

All day yesterday a feeling of existential dread/fear. I kept pushing with radical noting with half hour sits in between. Felt like I was punching above my weight until the mind punched back. Sat in the evening and at about an hour or so broke through something. I'm not going to try and decide what it was but there were flashing lights and pulsing and then strange hallucinations. It lasted for maybe a minute. I wasn't afraid while in it. I went with it. But when I sat up I was afraid. I hadn't realized I was hallucinating until I stopped. Then there was a feeling of fear, like, holy shit there is darkness in there. I got up and got a drink of water. I was afraid to sit again for a little while for the first time ever. Then I got the idea that I needed to get back on the horse (after being thrown) right away. Sat for another hour and could feel myself approach the edges of it but never going over. Don't know if I was holding back or what. I've continued this morning with noting, trying not to let any thought go unnoticed or unexamined. I keep interrupting thoughts as they start and letting them fade. Sometimes there's nothing under them and sometimes there's that fear/dread. I try to stay with the emotion/feeling as long as possible.

More fear and dread this morning. There are so many things in ordinary life to attach to but it feels bigger than THOSE things should be. 

I tried to sit this morning but it was no good. I was afraid and every little sensation was blown out proportion. 

So if you were to sit anyway, wouldn't that help you understand what's going on?

I just couldn't this morning. Took a shower and went to work.<br />while driving I went right back into dread/fear. I literally at times felt like I was going to have a panic attack but just keep denying that feeling as another thought. The gloves are definitely off right now. It goes between "you're going to crash into something/someone, that mole n your neck might be cancer (I know it's not), your sick cat is going to die", trying to attach to something. I keep reifying to "that's a story/thought". Keep noting.<br />then it says "you're doing great! You're making so much progress" but that is also a thought.<br /><br />i know I will sit again. I have to. I just couldn't this morning.<br />​​​​​​​

If you recently had a big awakening event it's not uncommon to be confronted with things like this. I remember my first encounter with this territory, and after trying to rid myself of this crazy aversive feelings in all my old ways without any form of luck I just had to surrender to it and allow it to be there, sort of take me over. It was new and a bit scary, but it was over in an instant and was unexpectedly uneventful. Just old stuff needing to be experienced.

I'm not sure if this is the case for you or if this is even DN territory but perhaps some food for thought. Good luck.

Yeah, back last July. Before that a smaller one in 2003. I had no practice or anything so dont know "what happens next" beyond what I read or listen too or learn here from others.
and you know, it can be a hodgepodge of ideas all pulled from everywhere.
​​​​​​​

Definitely consider reading the insight stages 4-10 from the MCTB if you haven't. Helped me tremendously with getting a grip on and normalise "what happens next" as I felt like I was going crazy.

+1

Start here: 4. The Arising and Passing Away – MCTB.org

Thanks all.
I recently read Daniel's book
and keep it on my phone. I suspect I'm in a and p and have been for a while. The hallucinations really threw me for a minute but I had a long two hour sit this afternoon, followed by a nice clean 1/2 hour sit this evening. The long one got me really humming by the end. Buzzing in my arms and hands and it really went deep. Thankfully no hallucinations.
I Can't really describe the content of the hallucinations but it was scary and the feeling with it were dark as fuck. I mean, way darker than I imagined anything could be inside me. It wasn't specific thoughts or images just a kind of jerking, buzzing, burning feeling with swirling hyper fast spinning. I think it was all mental but I was alone so I'm not sure. The feeling of existential fear came when I realized I had been hallucinating and hadn't realized it. Had me spooned all day. 

the dread and fear are gone, but who knows, they may come back tmorrow.

im just glad I got through a couple sits with no more hallucinations. Maybe if they happen again it won't be as bad because I will have had them before,
​​​​​​​

I paused my meditation for a full week when I got hallucinations. My wife, who doesn't meditate, said, "If you are seeing things that aren't there, maybe you should back off a bit." Seemed sensible. For a while, I was pretty conscientious about not driving too fast. If things got uncomfortably weird, I took my foot off the gas. Some days with no meditation, some days or weeks with shorter meditations. I never found any difficulty getting back up to speed. 

+1

​​​​​​​When difficult stuff happens, go much slower. Don't necessarily stop, but at least go slower and maybe pause for a while. The body/mind needs time to digest and incorporate weird/strong/difficult experiences.

​​​​​​​A lot of times people will push hard and "try to get through it" or "try to fix it with more practice" but this is going faster, not slower. Usually it's a way to avoid things by rushing through them. Meditation practice definitely requires times of slowing down and not rushing.

Reread it as you go thru the stages of POI
Really?
Then you discribe your (finger quote) "hallucinations"
​​​​​
Reread the following link please- you will find that your decriptions match quite well.

progress-of-insight/6-fear

Good luck,
​​​​​​​~D

Ha ha, thanks. The fear is gone this morning. I had a nightmare last night and have been dreaming way more recently.
but in the nightmare, which should have been scary,
I found I wasn't scared. I wasn't brave or the hero either, but just sort of watched terrible things happening and thought something like "I hope that doesn't happen to me." 

​​​​​​​

Thanks. Yeah I had this feeling like I was going to bust through it. But I see how that can be avoidance too. Like I could just get it all out of the way real quick. 

​​​​​​​there is no way I processed all of the fear that was in there. I would be fooling myself to think so. 

In the shower stretching my legs in order to alleviate the lower back pain I've been having the weird pseudo yoga posses started again. Arching the back, then down into Asian squats, then other weird shit, I realized I'd been here before. It was like deja vu almost. Earlier on I went through this but had no idea why. I read chapters you guys posted from MCTB and further on, and it really landed that I'm going to keep going around this wheel until I get to the bottom of it all, each stage repeated until it's done. 

that connection hadn't dawned on me until today. I was looking at it in a much more linear way. 
Some of you are probably thinking, "well duh..." ha ha, but it really hadn't occurred to me even though Daniel, in his book, says it very clearly over and over.

​​​​​​​

Bliss has come back but not the wild uncontrolled bliss of just after the experience. A calmer more comfortable bliss. A sense of oneness and love, a deeper understanding of others. A lot of insights, both subtle, and more bold. now that I understand this is cycle and will arise and pass and arise again there isn't the temptation to hold it or grasp it, to keep it from leaving. 

​​​​​​​listening to disco music in headphones while shopping, I had to stop myself from dancing in the aisle. Because, I really can't dance and people don't need to see that. 

Very good insight. It is usually like this, up, down and around the dukkha nanas for a while.

Sounds like you entered equanimity nana. It is indeed very calm and comfortable.

I didn't get a chance to respond to this before I got run off last time. Hopefully the moderators can restrain themselves from waving their anal hygiene appliances at me.


I found your reply here  interesting because I am much the same. Without following any program, method or aim I have limited my vices to the essential ones and have learned to cook my own wholesome vegetarian food from natural ingredients. I also spend a good bit of my time daily in wholly natural surroundings, me and my dog.

I say "I limit" and "I spend" time but it isn't like that, is it? Time spends me, time limits me. "I do nothing and the world is transformed" as the tao te ching says. 

Thought generally is unhelpful; in a way that itself is the central insight. We are self actualizing, we grow as an embryo does, unfolding new limbs and organs without any plan or knowledge.The less we resist the more effective and successful the process. And there is no end to it. I'll be learning to eat and cook better until the day I die. Like suszuki roshi used to say, everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement.  I sleep a couple of hours and then meditate or read an hour, typically. Usually I'm up at dawn and out with the dog or working.

As for practices and books, these are part of the apparatus of enlightenment. Like in a gymnasiium you have rings and bars and horses and ropes and weights. Enlightenment is a slow, natural process of maturation: "great talents ripen late" says the tao te ching. Practices and books are not useful for learning, but they are useful for teaching. That is, one can be taught to be free from practices and books through their use.

The sufis teach their young students to read "the literature," a vast collection of stories, poems and spiritual romances, as well as the koran. It is accepted that the students will not comprehend the esoteric meanings but it is hoped that over time as insights occur to the aspirant that the stories and verses will provide context, and broaden those insights. Mastering this lore allows one to share the broad cultural context and universality of truth with others. If they are open to it. Of course these insights are universal which is to say common and many want them to be special for one reason or another, fame and fortune, pride and prejudice. Their very commonaity is what tends to be rejected. Pride goeth with orthodoxy.

Enlightenment has a steep learning curve. At the beginning it is profoundly transformative but as time goes on transformation becomes gradual at best.  You rocket into space at great speed but once you are up there faster and faster doesn't mean much relative to nothing to compare and no resistance. Another metaphor: the surface of the ocean is very active and frothy but the depths are very calm and very very deep.



Inevitably, that reminds me of a joke. Two young black men crossing a bridge and one says. I got to piss. The other says me too so they stand there next to each other and let their penises out to piss in the river below. One says to the other, damn that river is cold. The other replies, yeah and it deep too.

Yes!!!

I sit a half hour at a time. ususally twice a day. While sitting I empty my mind and as thoughts enter I immediately let them go without letting them proliferate. This is "thinking no thought" as I understand it, just noticing breath and heart and bird song and clock ticj and thinking nothing about any of it, letting go immediately any thoughts that arise. Often after I sit I do additional lying down meditation.

​​​​​​​I sit on a pillow cross legged and long practice has convince me that this posture greatly facilitates meditation. I used to prepare for meditation, try to get my mind right first but I find that simply sitting cross legged for a minute puts me right there. I suppose the habitual posture induces a pavlovian response, but I'm also thinking that the position is itself very basic to the human organism, as are standing, walking and lying down. Each tends to support a characteristic type of mental energy.

I think you wil find if you formally sit in meditation daily it won't be long before you realize that the posture itself is making it easier.

terry --


In the spirit of comradery and liking that you're back ... and as a prophylactic measure... here's an imaginary roll of toilet paper for emergency use - just in case an anal appliance shows up 

Ha ha, yes, "everything is perfect but there is a lot of room for improvement" is a good way to put it. It took a long time for the sense that the universe, or god, or life, or energy, was moving or controlling it from somewhere. It wasn't that I was religious in any way, just that things seemed to come from the ether as it was needed, in an uncanny way, or with unbelievably perfect timing. Then one day the idea presented itself that that wasn't true. At first it was scary. The thought that I was utterly on my own. It felt like a safety net disappeared. Like I had been doing the trapeze, thinking there was a net, and looked down and there wasn't one. Took a few days or weeks to get used to. I was talking to a friend who helps, and I told him this, and he said something like "yeah, it's fun to believe there is some mysterious force guiding you, but there isn't."

at that point all I could do was laugh about the whole thing. And in the next few days it was completely gone. So gone that it's weird to even write about it now. I look back at that version of me and feel such a sympathy. How much that guy needed the safety net at the time. It's weird. 

layers peel off with insights sometimes slowly and sometimes suddenly. I have no idea or sense of where the bottom is, or if there even is a bottom. I know intellectually that people like Daniel Ingram say there is, but it seems like if I start to believe or want that, or hope for it, there is still something in me that can latch onto it and bind me in some strange way. 

​​​​​​​I keep my ears open for teachings, and I try things. I'm doing more sitting meditation, and walking meditation, and standing meditation. I don't notice a big difference in the energy of them, but maybe something subtle, not sure.