Hello friends,

I am new to this site, and please forgive me if this has already been discussed (and point me to the thread).

My initial (considered) reaction to what I take this place to be is: wonderful! and also caution.

I trust the instincts of the realized practitioners and scholars who are not "out." Many of these people are themselves great teachers and good people. I am very curious what leads them to their way, and suspect it has to do with what they have learned actually works to support others' practices unfolding. As a friend recently wrote to me, regarding a discussion we were having along these lines, not myself, "public claims to enlightenment can come accross as arrogant and raise red flags just as much as they may inspire or uplift others."

On the other hand, isn't it true that in the initial buddha's sangha attainments (if genuine! still today it is grounds for total expulsion from the monastery to make a false claim to an attainment, considered worse than murdering another human.) were to some degree openly discussed. I'm thinking of how Ananda wasn't able to contribute in meetings after the buddha's death unless he managed to attain arahantship. This makes sense to me, because attainments are titles that (ideally) say: here is a person who is mature, and kind, and wise.

I think it's an open question whether or not it is appropriate to use such titles, especially on an online forum as opposed to a physical community. You're only going to ever prove your attainment by touching the heart of someone else, and that doesn't need to be public or private, and will probably also take time and concerted efforts. Also, there are ways of claiming attainments and talking about the path that are non-traditional, tailored to each person in a particular situation. For example, just saying "you know, I don't feel jealosy anymore." To say this may touch another's heart much more than using an obscure pali title.

There is much to be said for finding a community, retreat center, monastery, or daily life practice oriented sangha, with a good teacher and doing the practice in association with a real teacher. My sense is that the creators of this site would agree, and yet they are still passionate about DhO.

I wont write more here and now, and I do wish this was better thought-out and organized. I guess the main points that I'd like to see discussed are about the pros and cons of discussing such sensitive matters as one's own and others spiritual life long-distance. And I'd like help in exploring- in a calm and careful way- the issue of secrecy versus the candor it seems this site encourages.

With genuine respect for the vision statement of this site. I look forward to reading your thoughts, and trying to respond.

Skillful means.

It is a sad irony that simply being content in every moment requires such diligent investigation.

The idea that simply being contented would require sincere effort is not well understood by an egoic mind. The notion of undertaking effort to become 'enlightened' and walk down the path of the spiritual masters appeals to it.

Dogen Zenji says: "When we open our mouths, it is filled with Dharma"

I think that you can throw ideas like 'He's enlightened, he's not, she's almost there, that dude will never get it' out the window.
When you read the DHO, read each word with diligent attention, and if there's a practice or claim you come across that seems worthwhile - TEST IT FOR YOURSELF.

"titles" can be a good or a bad thing, they can inspire practice or cause revulsion at perceived arrogance, as you correctly note. But the spiritual path, if followed with utmost diligence, cuts through samsara and sankhara, regardless of how you perceive those who have undertaken the same journey.

I don't see a downside to an internet forum to discuss vipassana/enlightenment practices... do you?
Its just another sangha. Real life sanghas have one set of problems (stress, competition, bureaucracy, $$$$, sex), and an online forum has another set (anonymity, no accountability, stress, trolling, etc.)

It seems the DHO is a pretty healthy sangha, as far as i can evaluate. People here really are practicing the science of buddhism to their utmost ability




Very wise. The spiritual path appeals to our sense of self-betterment, not self-destruction, and this is a really tricky issue for lots of people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism

skillful means indeed.

"I don't see a downside to an internet forum to discuss vipassana/enlightenment practices... do you?
Its just another sangha. Real life sanghas have one set of problems (stress, competition, bureaucracy, $$$$, sex), and an online forum has another set (anonymity, no accountability, stress, trolling, etc.)"

I don't see a downside for such discussion.

I DO see an upside to being conscious of those shadow sides, in any organization. I was curious to hear others' thoughts on what those might be, as a way of learning more about this place beyond my own private thoughts. Thanks for listing some you see. What have others learned in this organization? I've been impressed the more I explore DhO, so although I'm raising these issues, it's more out of curiosity and my own thinking than about judgementalness. If there's a downside to such discussions that I consider or intuit, it's that in my experience there's a lot that can be a lot of miscommunication simply due to communicating not in person. It's that experience that is the source of my hesitation, I suppose. But, I'm also excited to meet an interesting sangha that seems nice and sincere. I will see as I "test it for myself" and I am still curious to read more responses to this thread.

Indeed...and yet, on an internet forum such as this, there is very little personal profit or status that can come from such claims, which might change the calculation for whether or not it is skillful to make such claims.



Or by guiding someone to the same attainment...

Reasons I can think of for using Pali titles:

* Indicating a linked set of changes to personality and experience, rather then enumerating them
* Trying to relate one's experience to the suttas, so as to benefit from the suttas' advice which is specific to various stages of enlightenment
* Treating the stages of enlightenment as real and attainable so as to support a practice aimed at attaining them
* Trying to link other attainments (e.g. jhanas) to what the suttas say in order to better understand what they are and what to do with them

I think there are additional complications involved in making public (non-internet) claims about one's meditative attainments, and so there can be reasons not to do it during the public question-and-answer period at the local sangha and yet to do it here.

In general, I suspect my opinion about the value of making those claims here will pretty much echo everyone else's here: if people describe their attainments explicitly, that can be a guide for others who are interested in attaining those things, and the requirement for "explicit description" keeps people clear on what precisely is involved in those attainments, and what isn't. Linking attainments to words for them (such as Pali names, or names from other traditions) is merely convenient.

I took up a formal meditation practice after reading such claims (in MCTB ), because precise and detailed claims about what is possible were good motivation for me, whereas vague claims would not have convinced me that meditation was likely to lead to anything useful...though claims made for meditation probably do not influence the effects of meditation, they influence the assessment that I made of the sort of effects that were likely.

My current thoughts...

The only way to "guide someone else to the same attainment" is by touching their heart, I think.

There is a wide variety of ways this can look. The key is not how it looks, but that it comes from an open (realized/attained) heart. In some situations, it will be helpful to hear teachings in one way, and in other situations, in another way. The spirit of the buddha underlying it is what's shared.

I know what you mean, "End in Sight," about how MCTB technical-ness inspired you to practice whereas "vaguer" teachings did not. For my younger brother, it was the same. For him, seeing maps, stages, experiences, etcetera somehow gave him more confidence and interest in the path.

In my practice, the maps have been distantly inspiring/helpful. I am grateful that my teachers, although they for the most part no doubt were studied in suttas, didn't encourage me to evaluate my practice. The goal was always just to see what was arising, with balance, for what it is. The path unfolds naturally by doing this, with no need for evaluating- except insofar as it may be skillful means to inspire one, or to give a sense of context for what is happening. There can be value, I think, in suffering NOT knowing what's happening! However, I think there can also be an intuitive sense for what some experience may be, and then it can be helpful to have a word for it, as we strive for it.

I believe it is an extremely important message that awakening is possible. However, what makes it possible is training to relate to life wisely, and that is only ever realized by genuine practice, which is pathless. Paradoxical? Not really. I think that it's as simple as relaxing deeply the heart. A tense heart thinks it has to get somewhere, attain something, and all those other activities that are rooted in greed, hatred, and delusion.