"The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/14/24 3:54 PM
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"The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

Posts: 359 Join Date: 1/7/14 Recent Posts
I'm surprised this hasn't been asked yet or covered anywhere. This has been a curiosity and source of confusion again and again, every time I squint at it on the ñanas chart Daniel made. I took a picture of the top left and circled it.

Further to the right it corresponds to "malkuth", from the tree of life. I did try to Google it. To no avail.

WHAT THE FUCK is this? Where did Daniel get "the waterfall" from. And whats with "malkuth", what is it? And how is there a 0.4 jhana? And if there is a 0.4, is there a 0? What's zero?

Again, this is pure curiosity but it had to be asked. Im assuming part of the answer is "it's an overly nerdy analytical chart" and "jhana 0" is just regular experience.

But that being said, the biggest mystery is calling it "the waterfall".
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/14/24 6:45 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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Well if you look at the description "It is time to meditate, my mind is a mess" and "Poor concentration, poor investigation, usually swamped by the content/stuff". I think that's just like the beginning stage of meditation where you sit and, as my favorite description goes, you realize your mind is a shrieking mad house. The jhanas are referenced 1.1, 1.2, etc. Which I think is his fractal system of the subjhanas phases of the jhanas (so like 1.4 is the dying off phase of the first jhana). So I guess 0.4 would be the equanimity phase of no-jhana? Like "It is time to meditate, my mind is a mess" seems to have a certain amount of equanimity to it (I guess  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

From wikipedia

Malkuth means Kingdom. It is associated with the realm of matter/earth and relates to the physical world, the planets and the Solar System. It is important not to think of this sephirah as "unspiritual". Even though Malkuth is the emanation "furthest" from the Divine Source, it is still on the Tree of Life and therefore has its own unique spiritual qualities.

So it seems to line up with the above interpretation
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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/14/24 7:57 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/14/24 7:40 PM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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"So I guess 0.4 would be the equanimity phase of no-jhana?" Nice catch. That makes sense.

Edit: wow. I reread both your post and the quote about malkuth. It took me a second to get what you mean. Thats intersting. I see the connection between what you said and the Wikipedia entry.
Olivier S, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 7:26 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 7:25 AM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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 The Sephirot are from the Tree of Life, from Kabbalah, mystical judaism. It is something which can be viewed as an image of the origins of the cosmos or beings, but also a map of mystical deepening, let's say. When Daniel was practicing and being obsessed about meditation theory and maps a long time ago, before writing MCTB, he had a friend who was a kabbalist, and they apparently had a back and forth conversation for a few months about the possible correspondances between the kabbalistic map and the stages of insight. That's where this comes from.  As for the .1, .2, etc., as Shaman! Geoffrey said, it's the "subphases" of the different stages.

​​​​​​​Cheers
 
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Sam N, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 7:32 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 7:30 AM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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I am familiar with The Tree of Life as interpreted by occult orders such as The Golden Dawn and then by Crowley. In their grade systems, Malkuth - being the final emanation of God - is the starting point of the aspirant (leaving aside the complete noo-b level called "neophyte" or "probationer" that isn't even on the Tree of Life). In such schemes, Malkuth corresponds the first grade (1=10) or official beginning of the magical mystery tour, starting at the bottom. Looking over Ingram's map, he has corresponded other insight stages to the ascending spheres (continuing up) in the Tree of Life: Yesod (9), Hod (8), Netzach (7)... all the way up to the first manifestation Kether (1) and beyond.

Malkuth, the 10th and final sphere in the Tree if Life, corresponds to the element Earth and to our world, which is a fragmented and fucked up place as occultists saw it. The worst aspects of Samsara as it were, and yet a reflection of Godhead (Kether, sphere 1) after another manner (I am tempted to think Nirvana in Samsara). Also, Malkuth is each Hermetic element fully materialized: Fire, Water, Air, Earth as divinity descends and degenerates further into its final and gross expression.

That is a simplification of a very elaborate and ornate scheme, but for a surprisingly clear (for an occultist) and interesting deep dive, see Crowley's Thoth Tarot and essays in Book of Thoth, starting with:
- 10 of Wands (Malkuth of Fire) - "Oppression"
- 10 of Cups (...Water) - "Satiety"
- 10 of Swords (...Air) - "Ruin"
- 10 of Disks (...Earth) - "Wealth"
T DC, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 12:48 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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The waterfall stage comes up in western buddhism (maybe via Jack Kornfield?) as an early stage of meditation in which our experience becomes chaotic and distracted, thoughts overwhelm our minds like a waterfall, etc.

Personally I have always assumed it was a western similie to the meditative chaos of cause and effect (especially given Kornfield comes from a Theravadan tradition), but apparently Daniel places it elsewhere?
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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 2:50 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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Wow thank you guys. This is great

Oliver:

"When Daniel was practicing and being obsessed about meditation theory and maps a long time ago, before writing MCTB, he had a friend who was a kabbalist, and they apparently had a back and forth conversation for a few months about the possible correspondances between the kabbalistic map and the stages of insight. That's where this comes from"

I remember Daniel referring to him as "honey bunny".

I was literally cross googling the term "waterfall" with various magickal terms but I dont know anything about these traditions. Maybe it (the waterfall name) comes from a tradition. Or maybe Daniel's friend called it that. Or both.
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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 2:54 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 2:54 PM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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@tdc

That's interesting. Considering finishing the first part of the path is "stream entry", I wonder if there are parallels there.

The violent version of a stream is a raging river, and a waterfall is an even more extreme, and vertical, version.
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 3:34 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 3:34 PM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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(There is a tibetian model for stages of meditation that use the river to ocean analogy. I'm sure some googling would find it.) 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 4:04 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 3:59 PM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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I always found 0.4 most obvious as a new path/path-cycle emerges. It can be a frustrating limbo to be in when you're used to having good concentration.

I always found Kabbalah odd. Like there's a lot of magic to the hebrew language. It's one of these no vowel languages that can have near infinite multi-dimensional meanings and yet Victorian occultists thought instead the gematria was where it's at. It never clicked with me, a shame really, there must be great beauty to it. 
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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 5:32 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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@bahiyababy

"I always found 0.4 most obvious as a new path/path-cycle emerges. It can be a frustrating limbo to be in when you're used to having good concentration."

That's absolutely fascinating. Its nice to know, ahead of time. As soon as I begin 2nd path I'm gonna pay attention.
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 5:57 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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Okay Im going to hijack this for a personal question. I've always been confused about the cycling post stream entry. From my understanding, it seems like review generally starts at the A&P, but it's never been clear to me what really happens after review. So what you're saying is you basically go to waterfall, then presumably mind and body, cause and effect, and three characteristics. Then you hit like a different level of A&P? (I was reading Olivier's logs where he was talking about the rainbow vision). Is this right? Then when people talk about the cycling, is it because you're cycling on the last path "levels" of stuff before going through the current path "levels" or are people cycling through the current path "levels"?
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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/15/24 7:31 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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Please, hijack away friend

Maybe someone more experienced could answer.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/16/24 7:11 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/16/24 7:11 AM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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After attaining path, say You've got SE, then you enter into a review phase. 

When in review things are really cool and you like cycle from A&P through Nana's to EQ and that sort of repeats. 

It can be very jarring, for me anyway, when a new path starts, often because I've grown attached to the review cycle and reentering the early Nana's feels kind of weird and clunky. Though these days it's not a big deal. 

Now, path-cycles are when a full path occurs, you move through all the stages of a path, but dont attain a dramatic reduction in suffering. It just kind of cycles. 

Like I'm going through path cycles at the minute that occur a few times a day and there are also cycles that seem to move by at a slower rate. Everything's super fractal, cycles within cycles, like some vast coruscating jewel lens apparatus. I have very little attachment to Nana's these days and I have grown super accustomed to the cycling so I don't notice it much. The intensity diminishes as you integrate it all. That being said when I do get mad or blissed out it does tend to correspond to the Nana I'm in. Or so it seems.

​​​​​​​At least that's how I understand things.
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/16/24 8:08 AM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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Muchos gracias Bahiya! 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 1/20/24 4:52 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/20/24 4:52 PM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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finding-oneself *
Please, hijack away friend

Maybe someone more experienced could answer.


You wanna see something funny emoticon me somewhere between the 1st and 2nd path believeing I figured it all out! LOL emoticon 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bDHkwkfoWo
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finding oneself, modified 2 Months ago at 1/20/24 6:24 PM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

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Nice emoticon LOL thanks for sharing that 
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/21/24 6:18 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/21/24 6:18 AM

RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

Posts: 2378 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Bahiya Baby
After attaining path, say You've got SE, then you enter into a review phase. 

When in review things are really cool and you like cycle from A&P through Nana's to EQ and that sort of repeats. 

It can be very jarring, for me anyway, when a new path starts, often because I've grown attached to the review cycle and reentering the early Nana's feels kind of weird and clunky. Though these days it's not a big deal. 

Now, path-cycles are when a full path occurs, you move through all the stages of a path, but dont attain a dramatic reduction in suffering. It just kind of cycles. 

Like I'm going through path cycles at the minute that occur a few times a day and there are also cycles that seem to move by at a slower rate. Everything's super fractal, cycles within cycles, like some vast coruscating jewel lens apparatus. I have very little attachment to Nana's these days and I have grown super accustomed to the cycling so I don't notice it much. The intensity diminishes as you integrate it all. That being said when I do get mad or blissed out it does tend to correspond to the Nana I'm in. Or so it seems.

​​​​​​​At least that's how I understand things.

Nicely said. Kenneth Folk described early cycling (starting at A&P) as Review A and full cycling (starting at M&B, C&E, 3CsS, etc.) as Review B. (Those are probably good search terms if you're obsessed with this.) When the nanas start hitting harder, you are probably in the territory of working toward the next path.

Note in general, to no one in particular: Please don't be one of those people who looks for this patten and tries to retroactively convince themselves they have had SE. Don't even worry about SE. Worry about your ability to actually do the practice today, in your next sit. Being able to sit for an hour and be mindful for an hour is the copper standard of a practioner. Being able to do the practice for a day of walking and sitting and eating and peeing and pooping is the silver standard. Being able to do it for days on retreat is the gold standard. If you think convincing yourself or claiming SE will get you anything, I'm sorry to say there are no SE certificates nor SE merit badges nor SE halos that get awarded. emoticon 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/21/24 6:37 AM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

Posts: 457 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
You can't game the system. You can not do it. It is tempting to think you can because there are maps and models. 

You don't do the progress of insight, you don't even do insight, it just happens. 

The only thing you can do is relax and investigate your reality. 

---

​​​​​​​Perhaps we could do a DO stream enterer of the month calendar. Complete with sexy monk regalia. 
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/21/24 8:40 AM
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RE: "The Waterfall?" Jhana 0.4??? Huh?

Posts: 351 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Jack, I want you to draw me like one of your Dakinis

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