A few months ago I had an accidental kundalini awakening after some intense chakra work, internal family systems and emotional healing. It was extremely intense and after the nice parts ended, it quickly turned really bad. I was doing alright with the energeti symptoms and I was using stuff from Tara Springett's book to help heal the symptoms. Some of the techniques worked really well but others required visualizing and devoting myself to a higher power which I sruggled to do. I was making a bit of progress in manging the symptoms but I just couldn't go back to normal. In some ways the energy improved my life by forcing me to heal and change negative patterns in ly life but I was struggling to function normally.

The worst of the symptoms were the intense intrusive, and compulsive thoughts. Particularly existential ones. I stumbled across some buddhist teachings about suffering and no self and it gave me a full blown existential crisis and probably a dark night of the soul where everything was hopeless. In my worst moment and lowest point, I decided I couldn't to this any longer and simply let go of everything I had been clinging to. This included all my spiritual beliefs, all my ideas about reality, my ideas about myself and all my desires and wants. After that I felt a sense of equanimity and peace and almost all my kundalini symptoms were gone. However, I was basically a zombie. There was no one there really, just awareness, thoughts and my body running on autopilot. This lasted a few hourse with some occaisional slips back into a 'self' state where suddenly all my suffering and existential dread came back.

This has been going on a few days now. I'm more keenly aware that there isn't really a 'self' there and I can't really unsee it. Also I realised that all my spiritual beliefs and other beliefs about reality were all just fabrications I was clinging to. This even includes all stories about myself and others that gave my life meaning. Since they are all fabrications, life seems completely meaningless and I can't help but feel nihilistic. I can glimpse that there is no self in these nililistic feelings but still it's not great.

It's not all bad though. For example, when I go for a walk in nature, things are way more beautiful and almost all of my neurosis is gone. There isn't even any existential dread or nihilism because even that was some kind of clining or aversion. And most of the time there's no sense of effort or a doer of actions or a watcher of thoughts. But still even though there is barely any suffering, I don't want to stay in that state. Maybe in like 50 years but not now. There was just no meaning, motivation or personality there.

I feel like I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. There was a lot of neuroticism, trauma and unhealthy patterns and numbness before but I used to have a fun, quirky personality and had an identity that gave my life meaning. Kundalini has unfortunately amplified the neuroticism and removed the numbness and ego defense mechanisms so I can't really go back. In this new state I'm just a content zombie running on autopilot. There's no attachment to anything and no motivation to do anything. No happiness, no sadness, no fun, no humour, just a boring equanimity.

Maybe in the future this would be great I'm only 24 and I have never had a relationship, lost the few friends I had, quit my well paying tech job, and I've had to move out of my apartment back with my parents due to the scary intrusive thoughts. I did my spiritual/psychological work in order to fix my trauma and insecurities so that I could have relationships, social circle and career. Basically just to live a normal happy life. Now I don't know how to do that anymore.

Is this stream entry or just some weird depersonalization/derealisation? I used to meditate to stage 5-6 of TMI a few years ago but I quit as it didn't heal my trauma. I have done about 1 hour of vipasanna meditation in my entire life. My experience seems to line up with the progess of insight with A&P, dark night and equanimity and all that. Even those fancy graphs in mctb of body temperature, powers, pain, need for sleep match up with my experience. I have not had a fruition yet and I really don't want to. The no-self realisation is really sticking though.

How do I deal with this? Can I go back to normal or is there no going back?

This all sounds like normal A&P 4. The Arising and Passing Away – MCTB.org

No need to push forward toward SE, there is plenty of integration work that can be done right where you are. Basically post kundalini/A&P a lot of shadow psychological material starts bubbling up, like going through therapy for free   If you have a good heart about it, you can use this time to clean up you psyche. 

Having the map --- especially the sequence A&P, dissolution, fear, misery, disgust, desire for deliverance, reobservation, EQ --- is really useful because at least you will have a name/label for the kinds of state humans get stuck in as they are integrating their shadow stuff.

Remember that the goal isn't to make everything perfect, but not to feel trapped or powerless when life gets challenging. A lot of the time 90% of our problems are our _reactions_ to our problems, not the original problematic situation. Life will always be at least a little challenging, but our worries and fears --- those are always big challenges! It's possible for life to kinda be sucking for a while, but not be depressed --- just because the world is shit, it doesn't mean you have to feel like shit. But it takes a lot of psychological growth to get clear about that.

(Of course, working towards SE means doing a lot of the same training, except there is a formal meditation practice once a day. )

As for "no self" --- well, that's really a misunderstanding of buddhism. And it's a common misunderstanding after the A&P. (People usually get hung up on "no-self" and/or "emptiness".)  Buddha classically wouldn't answer "is there a self?" or he would give the old four-part non answer: that there is a self isn't true, that there is no self isn't true, that there is both a self and not a self isn't true, and there isn't something else. Self is fundamentally a mystery, just like experience itself. What is experience? What is self?

Enlightenment isn't getting a TRUE SELF and TRUE EXPERIENCE nor is it getting NO SELF and NO EXPERIENCE. If anything, it really is about basic human sanity as boring as that might sound.

Hope this helps in some way.

This kind of experience is not uncommon and not permanent.  There may be some clues that can show you that the situation is not as extreme as it seems. For example, you mention "boring equanimity" but there is no such thing as boring equanimity. The feeling of being bored is a type of dissatisfaction. Being bored sucks. That which sucks is not neutral. So you are still having normal healthy negative reactions to things like reduced emotional engagement. Also, when you go for a walk in nature, things are way more beautiful, so both positive and negative responses are working. Also, you are concerned about what it would be like to live this way for a long time and you want live a normal happy life. So your sense of self is still there, because you are still trying to protect that self, and make sure that you have a good future, which is great. 

Of course, it's clear that you have experienced a change. It's clearly a big change and those kinds of changes can be freaky. I would not want to come across as minimizing that change. I've had a similar type of experience. It freaked me out. The thing about changes is that they are ongoing. You felt one way last week, another way this week, and the chances are that you will feel some other way next week. You ask, "Can I go back to normal or is there no going back?" and the answer is both. There has never been any going back. Every day we are another day older. Our minds are constantly changing and growing. The world around us is in constant change, and time never goes backward. But that's normal. Change is normal. Change is all any of us has ever known. 

Spend time in nature. Spend time with other people. Eat well. Do some things that you normally do (books, movies, games, exercise) and let your mind catch up. 

Thanks Shagrol and Martin, that really does help.  I'm trying to go back to a normal life and hope I can.  However i read this part of the A&P essay which really disturbed me:​​​​​​​I'm scared that I'm in the 'weak equanimity' part and I'm just going to slip back into the dark night again until I reach stream entry or die. The idea of a more full-on dark night that is somehow worse than the one I went through really scares me because the one I went through was so unbelievably bad. Is this really the case or is it possible for me to live a relatively normal life?

A couple things that helped me get a better perspective on DN stuff.

There's a couple blogs compiling a lot of good stuff from posts on this forum. Well worth looking at.
https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#dissolution-fear-misery-disgust-desire-for-deliverance
https://danielpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

Also reading the MCTB stages of insight gave me a lot of good perspective on the stuff. I made my own note compilation of it that I can post.

Hope this helps.

Daniel's writing is intended to make people take this seriously... but the most extreme version of this stuff doesn't happen to everyone. He writes this way so people don't underestimate what is _possibly_ going to happen. It's better to be too careful than too naive.

But if you look at normal people's lives, they too go through periods of feeling like winners and then feeling like a loser. It's a normal cycle in humans in general and the interesting thing is that the persons material conditions don't seem to matter. A rich person gets depressed for almost no reason. A poor person seems to be fine with living in the worst slums in India. Up and down, that's they way human minds go and we all make it worse by freaking out at every step in the way.

It will be interesting to see when we have better data about how many people are post A&P. I would guess maybe 60% of the world is. Things like giving birth, extreme athletic endurance events, multiday backpacking, military service, long hospital stays... all of these normal human thing have a way of making the mind get very concentrated and possibly push it into A&P realm.  Then you add in lucid dreaming/out of body experiences and other near death experiences, those can push people into A&P realm. AND THEN you add all the drug takers who trip out and experience some very A&P like changes afterwards...

So I wouldn't be too worried. I would say that you're in good company with many of your fellow human beings.

That all said, if this makes you interested in basic meditation practice that's great, too. Basic meditation is much different than using visualizations etc. because those techniques involve intentionally manipulating what is arising with different ways of practices, interpretations, etc.  Basic meditation is just breaking down what is occuring while you sit into basic building blocks of experience: these are the sensations, these are the emotions/feelings, these are the thoughts. So it takes us back to the very basic nature of our experience, without a lot of mental elaboration or meaning making. This allows experience to be experienced with less suffering/resistance because we're not making it into a BIG DEAL, but rather having a knowable experience. Even things like "fear of the unknown" is ultimately just... "fear of the unknown".

I think my advice would be to let everything settle down and see what has changed in your life and what has stayed the same. A lot of the time our thoughts rush into to "figure out" a new experience, but really the body needs to have time to integrate what happened and be cool with it. Definitely don't rush and make big life changes etc. etc. 

Honestly, your mind will be best able to figure out what comes next when you have time to fully digest what happened and it's back in a state of calm and ease. That's the best medicine. So be very very good to yourself and give yourself the necessary time and space.

There can be a degree of depersonalization after big events (including giving birth, going to war, being in a car crash, etc etc) which is how the mind protects itself after a big event. This is a kind of no-self experience. It's totally normal and should pass naturally in time. (Sometimes spiritual people cling to it as a kind of new truth and you can see how this kind of spiritual clinging isn't that helpful. There is an element of truth to the no-self experience, but it isn't the complete picture, so clinging prevents integrating it and developing further insights.) 

Hopefully you'll be good to yourself and the dust will settle down on this big event.

Remember that if you are having a lot of difficulties, there are therapists that are familiar with this territory and they can be very helpful. Meditation teachers can also help but be wary if they advise "keep going even stronger" because these people are loony You have time to let things chill out for now. And as always, be critical about advice you get -- especially from me and the rest of the internet -- because we're not there with you. It's important to learn to trust yourself and take care of yourself despite what "experts" say. 

​​​​​​​Best wishes!!

Thanks Shagrol. Honestly, your replies have helped me so much at the moment.

Yeah I definitely don't want to rush things.

​​​​​​​I'm still kind of scared because Ingram calls it the standard pattern that I will keep falling into dark nights. I get thhat A&P happens in a lot of people but mine was unbelievably intense so I it feels like there will be repercussions. It's like my neurotic thoughts are still kind of there worrying about shit. Is there any way to avoid the dark night stuff?

Andrew --

You won't like my advice because it's the same as it was on your last (and very similar) topic. Stop worrying about this stuff. Stop doing it. And for God's sake, stop reading about it. Go do life-affirming things. Enjoy yourself by doing positive and interesting things. Eat more cheeseburgers. See more movies. Take walks. Read fun books. Pet dogs and cats.

Seriously.

Chris' advice is very good.

You might try a metta practice. Basically try to find people in your life you admire, love, are friends with and visualize them happy (you could even do cute animals!). If you're feeling up to it, you can do it for yourself, but some people have a hard time doing that, so if it's hard, start with someone else that's easier. Then try to say thoughts like "may so and so be happy. May they be peaceful. May they be safe. May they avoid the worst things in life." Etc. you don't have to use those specific ones, just come up with more general phrases of well being. The trick though is to really wish those things for those people (this is why it's important to start with people you genuinely do want to be happy!). As you do this, see if you can see the mind relax a little. See if feelings of warmth and love can be given space to come (sometimes it might happen, sometimes it might not. That is normal). 

This is a great practice, because a lot of intrusive thoughts are just conditioned ways of seeing the world, that may not be helpful. When you do metta, over long enough periods of time, you're reconditioning your thoughts to be well nice to others and to yourself. Then they are not as big of problems. 

​​​​​​​Hope you find this helpful!

What tends to happen here on DhO is that no matter what someone describes, whatever their predicament, folks suggest more meditation practice. The issue in this case is that Andrew isn't really in a good place from which to practice. He needs to gain his footing - in his life. He could probably use therapy, and it's very likely that therapy will be far more helpful to Andrew than anything like meditation practice. In my estimation, practice and anything to do with practice, is likely to continue Andrew's slide.

Stop sliding, Andrew.

Well Andrew if you do decide on trying to find a therapist, I know at least in the US, it can be pretty tricky sometimes with insurance, finding a good therapist who is taking patients, etc. I have someone I have worked with who helped me after my kundalini stuff and is pretty good with spiritual stuff (at least to me he was, but this is obviously a broad topic). If you DM me, I'd be happy to give you his contact info. And if for whatever logistical reason it doesn't work out, I'm sure he would be happy to give you pointers or referrals for helping you find another good therapist.

Let me know you've messaged me in this thread though. I haven't used the messaging system on here much, so I'm not sure if it gives me a notification or anything like that. 

Thank Chris, Yeah I have been reading and worrying about this stuff much less. I've been eating cheeseburgers, going for walks, watching movies which have helped. I did actuallly pet a cat today and it followed me around for a good 10 minutes during my walk

Metta does help sometimes as a lot of my existential thoughts were self centered. If there's one thing this ordeal has taught me, its that I need to be more compassionate. Although I do agree with Chris that I probably shouldn't do too much practice.

As for therapy, I don't really think western therapy understands kundalini as well. I'm part of a kundalini support group which is run by a kundalini therapist but I don't know how much of that is going to help.

As for my slide, I am certainly doing much better than I was a few days ago. My existential worries have definitely gotten better and I feel more like myself (whatever that means). There's the worry that i might have another dark night which I think is legit but i guess thinking about it too much isn't going to help. I usually post on here because when I am in a negative state, I don't really have people to talk to that understand this stuff except for you guys hence the posting.

​​​​​​​I really appreciate the answers.

Just like many so did I "slip back" into DN from low EQ. This happens only because there is "fear of falling back to DN" and "hoping to stay in EQ and hoping to nail that SE sucker!"  Both of these are clinging!

You don't fall back into DN because you didn't know how to stay in EQ but for not seeing all the aspects of the DN. So you go back to school the DN! No skipping classes in this Dhamma school! Pay attention to what is actually happening! Note matter of fact experience! Fear of falling back into DN! What does this feel like? Any body sensations associated with it? Any other mind images? Investigate in a simple way; note matter of fact experience arise-passing. 

Yiu can do this once a day for 45 minutes (1-5 notes a second) and then the rest of the day do what Chris suggests pet the cat! 

Papa, as I understand it, Andrew was not practicing any formal meditation so it's not the case that hew was already using Daniel's techniques and missed some stuff in DN so just needs to mop up. I would not recommend that Andrew take up meditation now.

Andrew, this is unlikely to be a good time to start. You probably need to chill out for a while, and possibly talk to a therapist if things don't clear up on their own. Then, when you are feeling really robust again, you might want to start a meditation practice. Noting practice is part of the approach taught in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and, quoting from Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha:

this book and the path presented in it are not for those who at this time find that they are unstable spiritual seekers. Meditation at the levels I am about to describe requires a baseline mental and material stability; and with respect to the latter, not necessarily wealth or even a 401(k), but ethically acquired requisites such as food and a safe, conducive shelter. You must have your psychological trip very together to be able to handle and integrate the intense techniques, side effects, and results I am about to discuss. 

Exactly as I have been saying to Andrew for about a week now. Happy to see someone agrees instead of just suggesting some new technique to a person who is obviously not ready for meditation right now.

Oh I see. My bad. Was not following it all. Ignore what I wrote above as that advice indeed is for folks already practicing this stuff. 

It's all going to be just fine. 

My A&P event happened to me out of the blue back in 1999. I suddenly saw all of the universe as I was laying on this planet. Glued by gravity to this planet while laying on it staring at the vast universe! Etc ...

But I started meditating first in 2009. Between that 1999 event and 2008 I was just socialising and petting the cat  

Hey Andrew, I hope you have gotten better in the meantime! 

Sounds like a rough time that you are going through but be assured things will stabilize again, you just have to give it time. Having dealt with these difficulties myself, I could share a few things that have been helpful for me. 

Therapy: Usually trauma oriented/somatic based practices that are resource oriented help to deal with the psychological and energetic side of things. In that regard I would like to recommend "Somatic Experiencing"  and "Cranio Sacral Biodynamics" - Somatic Experiencing works by tapping slowly into what's causing the suffering and over time your system will learn how to navigate through distressing situations, it will also provide you with a bunch of great resources that you can apply to feel safe and nourished. Cranio Sacral Biodynamics is a hands on practice that will help your body to find its center of gravity/stability again. As with everything in psychotherapy, success is mostly dependent on the relationship between you and your therapist, therefore you should try a couple of different therapists. Later on in the future, when you feel a bit more stable you could look into Attachment Therapy, more specifically the Ideal Parent Figure Protocol. What is so nice about it is that it is an integrative approach to treatment as it draws from different schools of psychotherapy, meaning that you will be working with different aspects of your mind. Each of these modalities have their own place. I would suggest to start with Somatic Experiencing and after a couple of sessions, when you feel ready for it you could try Cranio Sacral Biodynamics. 

Emotional Regulation: The next advice that I am going to give is drawn from Dialectic Behavioral Therapy - have a skill list at hand. After these shifts your system might go through some emotional dysregulation, it's useful to know at least a handful of skills that you can use when shit is about to hit the fan. Try to figure out what helps you. It could be something small like cleaing the kitchen, all the way up to taking a hot bath. At best you want to have that list in your wallet and you want to trust it. Some of the things that have worked for me: Cleaning, Sitting in nature, Bineural Beats, Hot bath 

Socializing: Meet people that you like on a regular basis, no matter how shitty you feel. As humans we regulate the best around others 

Avoid stimulants like coffeeine and work out regularly. You could also start practicing Taiji but only when things have stabilized a bit more and you want to pracitce movements rather than standing positions (Taiji is a great way to get you grounded - try and see if it works for you, if it does not and you feel dysregulated, don't dismiss it entirely, just give it a few more weeks/months then try it again).

Oh and stop reading about anything Dharma related, the disgust can be quite big, no need to fuel the fire 

If you want a private consultation send me a message. I hope I could help you a bit. 

Thanks Chris and Martin. yeah I'm definitely going to take a long break from meditation until I get better, although a part of me is itching to start doing hardcore practice one day . Reading some of these posts has definitely inspired me.

Thanks nervous bee,
I actually have some extensive experience with Internal family systems therapy that I have combined with somatic methods and that has really been helping me lately. I might look into cranial sacral biodynamics though as it sounds quite interesting.

Hot bath and intense exercise are my go to's when shit hits the fan. I try to spend as much time in nature as I can which also helps.