UFO'S and the A&P

UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/23/24 6:16 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/23/24 6:39 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/23/24 6:54 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/28/24 12:03 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/23/24 6:52 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/23/24 7:58 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/24/24 5:00 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/24/24 5:05 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 5:11 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 5:12 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 5:20 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/24/24 9:05 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/24/24 7:26 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Griffin 1/27/24 7:28 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/24/24 6:16 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/24/24 1:13 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/24/24 10:15 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/24/24 1:19 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/24/24 9:52 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Pepe · 1/24/24 9:58 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/24/24 1:34 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/24/24 1:40 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 4:58 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 4:50 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/28/24 9:57 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/28/24 10:19 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Martin 1/28/24 10:56 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P finding-oneself ♤ 1/24/24 5:03 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/25/24 8:12 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 5:28 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 1/24/24 5:40 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/24/24 5:42 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 1/25/24 3:54 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 1/25/24 4:08 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/25/24 6:36 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Siavash ' 1/25/24 3:41 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/25/24 4:46 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sam N 1/25/24 5:21 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/25/24 8:07 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/25/24 8:33 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/25/24 8:43 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/25/24 8:53 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/25/24 10:14 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sam N 1/25/24 12:16 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/25/24 4:36 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P ‎ ‎Nihila 1/25/24 4:40 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sam N 1/25/24 5:22 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Martin 1/25/24 6:36 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/25/24 7:21 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/25/24 7:29 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Martin 1/25/24 7:50 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/25/24 7:53 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Martin 1/25/24 7:57 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/25/24 8:14 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/25/24 8:15 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Martin 1/25/24 8:40 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Will G 1/26/24 3:59 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/26/24 8:25 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/27/24 10:17 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/28/24 9:35 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/28/24 11:08 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 1/28/24 11:26 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/28/24 1:12 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/28/24 1:20 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Dream Walker 1/29/24 7:35 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Stickman3 1/29/24 7:41 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/30/24 8:12 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sam N 1/31/24 8:45 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sha-Man! Geoffrey 1/31/24 10:14 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 1/31/24 4:00 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/31/24 4:36 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 1/31/24 4:39 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P shargrol 1/31/24 4:55 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Sam N 1/31/24 4:59 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Bahiya Baby 1/31/24 5:10 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 2/1/24 6:32 AM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 2/1/24 7:33 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Chris M 2/1/24 7:49 PM
RE: UFO'S and the A&P Papa Che Dusko 2/1/24 8:12 PM
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 6:16 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 6:16 PM

UFO'S and the A&P

Posts: 461 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Has anyone else here noticed similarities in the phenomenology being reported by people who see or are abducted by UFO's and the A&P?

When I read first hand accounts, as opposed to authors selling specific UFO narratives, it’s always bright lights and bliss waves, quasi-paralytic states and streams of unintelligible divine information. Even when there are aliens or crafts, those tropes of the experience are less consistent than these other phenomena. It all tends to resemble the Miracle of the Sun more than classic, pop-culture alien stuff. You can see this a lot in Jacque Vallee’s writing. (Included below.)

The accounts seem to almost always come bundled with some aspect of "Samadhi". With most of the experiences tending to be more inline with what we might call “Kundalini phenomena” than nuts and bolts spaceships abducting people. This all adds up for me as being very A&P but these people are obviously also seeing things. Now I have had some CRAZY A&P experiences, like non-functional human being type stuff, but I have never hallucinated like that, at least not without the help of psychedelics. I don’t think that’s strange as I know myself to be a much more kinesthetic person rather than visual. Does anyone here have experience with hallucinations like the above in the A&P? 

I think it’s worth pointing out that with an uptick in people organizing, going out to gaze into the night sky -sometimes for days on end- in search of alien craft and extradimensional experiences, it makes sense to me that this might lead some to develop the necessary attention to enter the A&P. 

For what it’s worth I would wager meditation has its origins in this kind of stargazing, many esoteric arts do. (See something like Star.Ships by Gordon White for reference.) I suppose there’s a lot more about this that I’m not adequately equipped to discuss at the minute, suffice to say, there seems, to me, to be an A&P cult at the heart of the UFO phenomena. A mystery cult if I might be so bold.


Here’s some Vallee:
It was the summer of 1968, about 4:00 P.M. She was driving from London to a place near Stratford to visit friends for the weekend. She had a companion in the car with her. Just outside Oxford they both saw a shining disk in the sky. They slowed and then stopped to watch it as it darted and dodged. Another car stopped to watch it, too. Eventually it sank behind the trees. 

They resumed their trip, but the really striking events took place after the disk had disappeared: During the drive between Burford and Stratford I had some startling, and to me, novel insights into what I can only describe as the Nature of Reality. They were connected in some way to this shining disk, and have had a profound effect on me, causing what is commonly known as a personality change. I won't try to explain what those insights were since almost all the religions of the world have tried to do this and have failed. (In that afternoon I changed from an agnostic to a gnostic, if that means anything at all.) However, these insights hit me like bolts from the blue, as though from outside, one after the other. I've never had a similar experience since.
The letter continues with a description of what the woman saw that evening after supper, a description that seems to come straight out of a John Fowles novel: the guests were in the sitting room, which had open French windows leading out onto the lawn, and the woman went over to the window to get a breath of fresh air. The weather, she wrote, was 'very hot and close.'

The light from the room shone in an arc of about ten feet around the window. In that area I saw, as soon as I came to the window, a strange figure. My perception of it was heightened by the state of frozen panic it produced in me. It was for me without any doubt, a demon, or devil because of my Western oriented interpretation (I imagine) of the vision or creature or animal or man, or whatever it was I saw. Like the 'Scorpion man,' as well as Pan, it had dog or goat-like legs. It was covered in silky, downy fur, dark, and glinting in the light. It was unmistakably humanoid, and to my mind malevolent. It crouched, and stared, unblinkingly, at me with light, grape-green eyes that slanted upwards and had no pupils. The eyes shone and were by far the most frightening thing about it. It was, I think retrospectively, trying to communicate with me, but my panic interfered with any message I might have received. If it had stood to its full height it would have been about four to five feet tall. It had pointed ears and a long muzzle. It gave the impression of emaciation; its hands and fingers were as thin as sticks.

Eventually, convinced that I was hallucinating, I went and sat down for a while, until the panic had subsided. Then I went to see if it was still there. It was, except that it had moved further into the shadows on the edge of the arc of light. I made sure I kept away from that door for the rest of the evening, and left the next day. I told no one. That it may have been connected with the shining disk I only realized when I saw that slide.



A case that took place in March 1958, and which was later reported in the pages of The Flying Saucer Review by French investigator Joel Mesnard, provides an opportunity to verify again the strange properties of the lights associated with the UFO phenomenon in modern as in ancient times.

The witness here is a twenty-eight-year-old French legionnaire who was on sentry duty at the Algerian camp of Bouahmama, in the desert south of Constantine. Shortly after 12:30 A.M., this man heard a whistling noise that seemed to be coming from the sky, and as he looked up he saw a very large object, about one thousand feet in diameter, coming down some 150 feet away from him.

The most remarkable thing about this object, however, was not its enormous size but the intense conical beam of emerald-green light that came down from its underside.
The recollections of the legionnaire beyond this point are vague and, by his own admission, may not correspond to reality. Instead of either firing his gun to alert others or picking up the field telephone to call his superiors, he remained staring at the object for over three-quarters of an hour.
According to this man, as interviewed by Joel Mesnard: 'The pale green and emerald colors were the most beautiful, relaxing, and fascinating colors he had ever seen.'

The object departed in the most classical way: first the whistling noise, then the rising to an altitude of about three hundred feet, and finally the climb at 'tremendous speed' toward the northwest. As the object left and the man returned to full awareness, the happy, ecstatic feeling he had experienced was replaced by sadness. He picked up the telephone and reported what he had seen to his superiors. They initially thought that the experience was a hallucination due to stress, but it is to the credit of the French military that a thorough investigation was pursued. Instead of sweeping the case under the rug (and the French Legion in Algeria had more pressing problems at that time than investigating UFO landings!), the officers went to the site, examined it carefully, found no physical evidence, resumed their questioning of the witness, and, as he kept insisting on the veracity of the event and they had no reason to doubt his truthfulness, they sent him to Paris for a more detailed examination. In Paris he was kept under observation for one week at the Val-de-Grace Military Hospital. An electroencephalogram revealed nothing unusual. The medical staff concluded that he was in a state of good mental and physical health and was not suffering from the strain of war in any unusual way.
a&p
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 6:39 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 6:36 PM

RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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YES YES YES!

I've definitely have been tracking this. (In fact, I mentioned this to Chris M. the last time we talked.)

The most recent example I came across is when Gary Nolan, in describing his "communication" with a ufo, described laying in bed with his whole body tingling and full of light and he said to himself "this is how we make contact"... and later on he described how it got to much and he wanted it to stop and it ended so abruptly "that it must have been something from beyond, things don't happen like this" (all rough quotes).  ​​​​​​​But yes, things do act like this. More specifically A&Ps act like this. 

(Wish I could link to the you tube video where he said this, but I didn't save it.)  AHA, here it is!: https://youtu.be/XR0JtbuLhPo?t=2114 
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 6:52 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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There's definitely some interesting overlap between aliens and spirituality in general. I think one fun learning from the pyschedlic community is that basically if you do enough dmt you will see other beings, but generally your cultural context shapes what you see. Like if you see angles and gods, or aliens, or machine elves. 

Also in a guru Viking episode delson Armstrong talks about how in the Yoga vasista it mentions a yogi who basically goes up and orbits the earth and periodically checks in on us and made the connection to aliens.

re shargrols communication. I recently just met a yogi who "met his guru" during his A&P and the guru spoke through him 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 6:54 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I've been trying to write an article about this for a while. I'm not much of an article writer.

The other side of it that's really interesting, given how many spontaneous spiritual awakening people we see, is how our cultural predispositions inform our experience of the A&P. A monk might see christ. In the jungle on Ayahuasca one might meet Pacha Mama... So on with UFO's. Everyone's looking at the fragments of meaning that come tumbling out as though that's the important factor not the underlying phenomenological insight. Obviously they don't have the training, or haven’t been prepared for the possibility of these experiences, so they latch onto whatever’s available.
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/23/24 7:58 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Yeah, people predictably grab onto some kind of metaphysics (some framework for why the experience "makes sense"). 
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:00 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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But there does seem to be like jungian archetypes to all this. Like you could talk to a bunch of people about this and I'd wager you're going to get a relatively small set of types of things.

on the same podcast delson mentioned one of his friends tried to see pantalji, who was legended to be a naga, and from delsons description he just saw a lizard person...
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:05 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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They aren't just grabbing onto "a metaphysics" at random from the space of all metaphysics

here is the lore when you leave the deva of our forest monastery

​​​​​​​https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/strange-creatures/mothman.htm
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:11 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Agreed they're grabbing at archetypes or worldviews they've been predisposed towards through culture. 

Generally. Like when this stuff happens to a UFO person then they start reading in all the UFO data. 

​​​​​​​It's why Jacque Vallees examples are weird. Being European, they have much less of the American cultural programming. Flying saucers are very very American. How crazy is it that one lady sees a Satyr. Yet it makes sense. The mind is making meaning out of insights into the unknown. 

​​​​​​​I don't know why but nothing says America to me more than sleek seamless polished chrome. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:12 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I would love to get some data on hallucinations during the A&P. 

​​​​​​​I reckon it does happen. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:20 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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This guy details his experience around 28mins in 

https://youtu.be/Y26iMB0r-f8?si=5sY_yaizlqZZtB8u
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 7:26 AM
Created 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 6:07 AM

RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Heh, Chicago also has a mothman: google it, e.g. Video Claims Repeated Mothman Sightings At Chicago O’Hare Airport | The Daily Caller

I guess my point is that A&P is a big event which gives a very strong (but not complete) insight into the nature of self and other, but often what is focused on is a kind of metaphysics that tries to make retain a woowoo version of reality where self and other aren't changed fundamentally. Existance becomes >spiritual< or >strange< but in these metaphysics there is still self and other as usual. 

But what lurks beneath this re-mapping is that something fundamentally has changed. The rigid walls between self and other are blurred and the (apparently oppressive) tautology of experience (I experience what I experience because I experience it; what I think is self and other is what I think of self and other because I think it's self and other) is sort of buried in the subconscious. And there is also a vague sense of powerlessness because the old egoic tricks that give us a steady stream of narcissistic feeding (the non-pathological kind) is compromised. We just can't believe the old and simple stories of what reality is and our place in it. 

And what bubbles up into consciousness are all the anxieties that come from an imperfect relationship to experience/mind. (There's the retreating from it in dissolution, the fear in fear, the misery of the obligation of it, the disgust in the imperfection of reality, the desire for deliverance and the mapping and strategizing, and the reobservation when we realize we can't escape it). 

A lot of the dark night is fundamentally jungian achetypes and individualtion, along with any remaining freudian-type repressions that need to be exposed. 

But yeah, UFOs have a lot of the shock, transformation, mythic archetype, psychological change, that A&P have. But then again, all big life shocks also have the capability to shoot people into this semi-traumatic and semi-transformative stage of development. 

So does UFO equal an A&P or does UFO potentially induce an A&P, sort of in the same way that hallucigenic drugs can induce but don't "cause" an A&P?

To throw in another curiousity, a lot of magickal workings (entity contact, channeling, scrying the ethers) also seem to induce this kind of transformation.


Right now, I'm holding the view that 1) the world is a curious place and LOTS of miraculous stuff happens subjectively, 2) the world is a curious place and sometimes miraculous stuff happens objectively (physical effects), 3) humans go through a very sloppy developmental phase between converntional/logical/operational worldviews and multi-casusal/subjective worldviews and with this transformation there is a lot of dreamy and achetypical experiences that are induced in the process, and 4) when humans go through SE the body rewires itself and while there is some of this dreamy and achetype stuff mostly it's much finer scale chakra type stuff and hard jhanas that happen.

Again, what is interesting is people tend to focus on the quality of the experience (the woowoo pre-SE, the jhanas and chackras post SE, the "emptiness" during the road to third path, the "knowing quality" during the road to fourth path... and the actual transformative change is somewhat less appreciated/understood (the blurring of self and other during A&P, etc etc.). Sort of like getting excited about what a lawnmower sounds like, instead of realizing there is a blade in there spinning at 200MPH/350KMH.
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 6:16 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Duh, this is probably obvious, but I just realized that some of the UFO and Dark Night development stuff is all about losing our inherited/familial world mapping system... and thus all of the anxieties that get triggered... and thus all of the desparate search for replacement worldviews that have a new sense of authority figures in them -- the authority of the church, of the dharma, of the gods, or the "science of enlightenment", of my guru, of my sangha, of my cult, of my club, etc. until this all settles and we can just be with reality in an open and intimate way (EQ). 

Then, with ongoing practice and acceptance and calming, the clinging/reinforcement of making a self over here and other over there momentarily stops for the first time (SE). And amazingly we don't die! Very interesting and liberating to the poor ego that thought it had to defend itself all these years...

It's also very interesting that arhat is also known as "one who does not depend on others", hinting at the psychological individuation aspect, along with the other insight stuff. 


Fun topic, thanks for conversation!
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 1:13 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Yes, shargrol brought this up to me when we last met up. I'd never heard of this or made the connection before.

Question: humans have been having A&P-like experiences since the dawn of consciousness and sentience, right? So is this another version of the skeptics' "alien encounters are normal things happening to people that are getting intrepreted by those people through the lens of current culture?" Before A&P experiences were interpreted as UFO/alien in origin, obviously by people unarmed with foreknowledge of the A&P, were these experiences interpreted as magic, witchcraft, religious visions, etc.?

Another question: are you guys saying the A&P is responsible for all UFO/alien experiences, or is it a subset of them?

Interesting topic to think about, but I'm new to it. I'll have to do some investigating to get up to speed.
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 9:05 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Bahiya Baby
This guy details his experience around 28mins in 

https://youtu.be/Y26iMB0r-f8?si=5sY_yaizlqZZtB8u

At about 4 minutes in, he talks about the classic "data download" experience which is very UFO and A&P.
https://youtu.be/Y26iMB0r-f8?t=245

Here's a time link to the guy's experience: https://youtu.be/Y26iMB0r-f8?t=1691
Sounds like it's a mostly a pre-cognition type thing for him.

Oooh and a direct contact (!): https://youtu.be/Y26iMB0r-f8?t=1780

shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 9:52 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Another dimension of this is the internal-logic that is characteristic of the dream world. That very creative almost miraculous way dreams are both clearly our and yet have elements of creativity way beyond our conscious/intentional manipulation or ability to logically formulate. 


​​​​​​​(EDIT: which is mentioned later in the video, too.)
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Pepe ·, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 9:58 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Not a very productive conversation IMO, just for reference  Daniel Ingram - UFOs & Awakening (ETP 001)
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 10:15 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I would be hesitant to say that any vision, entity, etc is caused by the A&P. Like people see this stuff on DMT all the time but don't necessarily get the perceptual upgrades afterwards. It's seems like a regular hallucination of entities hah. 

The brain downloads I think are interesting though. I only came across this idea recently, and I didn't know it was an alien or ap thing. It puts the quaran story into an interesting light. 
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 1:19 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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So what, then, is the relationship between the A&P and these experiences that's being asserted by these folks? If it's not causal in either direction, that is.

EDIT: Is it as simple as some UFO/alien experience descriptions sound like A&P experiences?

I'm really interested in understanding why you guys are so excited by this topic.
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 1:34 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I went to Google's Bard LLM and asked it about this stuff, just to see what it would come up with. Here's its response to my question "What is the connection between alien contact experiences and the meditation stage called "The Arising and Passing Away?"

Bard said:

The connection between alien contact experiences and the meditation stage called "Arising and Passing Away" is a fascinating and multifaceted one, but it's important to acknowledge that it's also subjective and open to interpretation. Here are some potential ways they might be linked:Similarities in experience:

  • Non-ordinary states of consciousness: Both alien contact experiences and deep meditation can involve altered states of consciousness, characterized by vivid perceptions, feelings of detachment from the body, and a sense of expanded awareness. This can lead to a feeling of encountering something beyond the ordinary, which might be interpreted as alien contact.
  • Focus on impermanence: The "Arising and Passing Away" stage in meditation emphasizes the impermanent nature of all phenomena, including thoughts, feelings, and even our sense of self. Some alien contact narratives also touch on this theme, depicting civilizations or beings that operate on different time scales or have a different relationship to time altogether.
  • Mystical experiences: Both practices can lead to profound and ineffable experiences that defy conventional explanation. These experiences can be deeply transformative and reshape one's worldview, potentially including their understanding of reality and the possibility of extraterrestrial life.


Psychological interpretations:


  • Projection and interpretation: Some argue that alien contact experiences, particularly those occurring during meditation, might be projections of the mind's own internal states and expectations. The "Arising and Passing Away" stage, by focusing on impermanence, can loosen the grip on familiar patterns of thought, potentially making one more susceptible to interpreting internal phenomena as external encounters.
  • Seeking meaning: Humans have a natural tendency to seek meaning and explanation for the unknown. When confronted with an unsettling or disorienting experience like altered states of consciousness, some individuals might interpret it as contact with alien intelligence, especially if they have prior interest in the subject.


Spiritual interpretations:


  • Connecting with higher consciousness: Some spiritual traditions believe that alien contact experiences can be a form of communication with higher beings or dimensions of consciousness. The "Arising and Passing Away" stage can be seen as a pathway to accessing these higher realms, where contact with other intelligences might be possible.
  • Expanding awareness: Both practices can lead to a greater understanding of the interconnectedness of all things. This expanded awareness might include a sense of connection to other beings, both earthly and extraterrestrial, blurring the lines between self and other.


It's important to remember that there is no scientific consensus on the validity of alien contact experiences, and their interpretation is highly subjective. However, the parallels between these two seemingly disparate experiences highlight the profound and transformative potential of both meditation and the human quest for meaning in the face of the unknown.

Ultimately, the connection between alien contact and the "Arising and Passing Away" stage is a matter of individual exploration and interpretation. Whether you see them as directly linked or as separate yet resonant experiences, both can offer valuable insights into the nature of consciousness, reality, and our place within it.
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 1:40 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Just for fun, asked ChatGPT4 the same question, and it responded with this:
​​​​​​​
​​​​​​​The "Arising and Passing Away" (A&P) is a specific stage in the progress of insight meditation as described in Theravada Buddhist practice. This stage is known for its intense and often exhilarating experiences, including visions, raptures, and a profound sense of understanding or insight.

The connection between alien contact experiences and the A&P stage is not a mainstream scientific or psychological viewpoint but rather falls within the realm of speculative, anecdotal, or interpretive theories. Here are a few ways this connection might be made:

1. **Altered States of Consciousness**: Both the A&P stage and alleged alien contact experiences involve altered states of consciousness. The A&P stage can induce intense visionary experiences, which might be subjectively interpreted as contact with otherworldly beings or realms.

2. **Psychological Interpretations**: From a psychological standpoint, intense meditation experiences, including the A&P, can trigger a range of hallucinatory or visionary experiences. These might be interpreted by the experiencer in various ways, including as encounters with aliens, based on their personal beliefs or cultural influences.

3. **Cultural and Personal Beliefs**: The interpretation of these experiences is heavily influenced by an individual's cultural background and personal beliefs. In cultures or among individuals where there is a belief in aliens or extraterrestrial life, intense meditative experiences might be more likely to be interpreted in that context.

4. **Neurological Factors**: There is also a possibility that certain neurological changes or activations that occur during intense meditation stages like the A&P can lead to experiences that are interpreted as alien encounters. This is a speculative connection and would require more scientific research to be substantiated.

It's important to note that these connections are largely speculative and not widely accepted in mainstream psychology or neuroscience. They are more often discussed in the context of spiritual, new age, or paranormal theories. As always, experiences and interpretations of this nature are deeply subjective and can vary greatly from person to person.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 4:58 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Mostly I am curious about the effects of A&P experiences on culture and throughout history. For example: in the last millenia how many people had "Spontaneous Spiritual Awakenings"? How many of those awakenings lead to cults, religions, art, etc and how have these people and their experiences shaped our culture through time?

Look at the ecstacy of St Francis or the transverberation of St Teresa of Avila. This is very impactful stuff. Certainly in the case of St Francis he led a very active life. He lived by this experience. It shaped him, his followers and the world through him. On the flip side they basically locked Teresa away because she was so far out. I find it a captivating thing to look at yet also immensely tragic. We have some understanding of this experience, now, that was not available to many of these historical figures and isn't available to many people who are going through it in the present day. What does it mean if many of the people having these experiences in the present day are "saying it's Aliens"?

One can make the argument that the UFO experience may not be the A&P experience. From my point of view, in the same way we might try to trace the origins of a mystery tradition in the experience of a certain drug by the representations found in the frescoes they left behind. I'm looking at the phenomenological aspects of reports and seeing if they line up with the A&P. Purely for shits and giggles. Where it gets interesting to me. Is from what I can see the A&P kinesthetics are more common throughout the experiences than little grey men. The people who give the accounts really stress the felt, kinesthetic shifts and tend to describe them in ways that align with the A&P experience. If these were meditators recounting a practice to me I would be preparing them for what comes next you know. It really sank home when I watched the videos, because I could feel the A&P qualities dripping off the people as they spoke. My nervous system said "hey, you have experienced this too." Unfortunately I felt that they were using a UFO worldview to try and explain a profound experience they were having. So, in a sense, UFO's were solving for A&P. Or A&P induced "UFO".

Some general things I think are mostly true:
I reckon most UFO encounters that fall into the shape I have loosely outlined here are almost all A&P experiences with stronger visionary aspects than is usual. 
I think people have A&P experiences, I think that's pretty natural, where it gets weird is in the ways the experiences are assimilated, understood and then disseminated into our culture.

I'm not saying that if UFO's are the A&P that they're also not "real".

A scatter gun of random ideas that I suppose are a bit more conspiracy than the angles I've been primarily interested in. 
-What's the difference between a UFO and a UAP?
-There's a lot of weird plasma research being done.
-What was The Miracle of The Sun?
-The UFO abductee community is very culty
-How many people are really having these experiences?
-Could an A&P experience be induced in someone and why, for what cause?
-Could UAP's be natural phenomena?

---
Question: humans have been having A&P-like experiences since the dawn of consciousness and sentience, right? So is this another version of the skeptics' "alien encounters are normal things happening to people that are getting intrepreted by those people through the lens of current culture?" Before A&P experiences were interpreted as UFO/alien in origin, obviously by people unarmed with foreknowledge of the A&P, were these experiences interpreted as magic, witchcraft, religious visions, etc.?

Yes, 100%. Jacque Vallee links ufo experiences to medieval accounts of fairy abductions. They're remarkably similar and the phenomenology or the kinesthetic experiences have commonality where the visual details may not. I would argue these experiences underpinned some of the ancient mystery traditions too. Though obviously throughout europe and the levant drugs were involved in at least some of them. 
​​​​​​​
Another dimension of this is the internal-logic that is characteristic of the dream world. That very creative almost miraculous way dreams are both clearly our and yet have elements of creativity way beyond our conscious/intentional manipulation or ability to logically formulate.

Can the A&P induce dream phenomena in "waking" life? This is a big question that I am asking. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 4:50 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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The Miracle of The Sun stuff is awesome. 

De Marchi authored several books on the subject, such as The True Story of Fátima. They include a number of witness descriptions:
  • "The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceedingly swift and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat." —  Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the Catholic newspaper Ordem.[27]
  • "The silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy grey light, was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds [.. The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands [...] people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they." —  Reporter for the Lisbon newspaper O Dia.[26]
  • "The sun's disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body, for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl when suddenly a clamor was heard from all the people. The sun, whirling, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was terrible." —  De Marchi attributes this description to Almeida Garrett, Professor of Natural Sciences at Coimbra University.[28] Theologian Father Stanley L. Jaki wrote that it was actually given by José Almeida Garrett, a young lawyer, and is often mistakenly attributed to his father, a professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra,[16] named Gonçalo de Almeida Garrett.[29]
  • "As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendor. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent firewheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colors of the rainbow and sending forth multicolored flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes. The immense multitude, overcome by the evidence of such a tremendous prodigy, threw themselves on their knees." —  Manuel Formigão, a professor at the seminary at Santarém, and a priest.[28]
  • "I feel incapable of describing what I saw. I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes. Looking like a ball of snow, revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zig-zag, menacing the earth. Terrified, I ran and hid myself among the people, who were weeping and expecting the end of the world at any moment." —  Rev. Joaquim Lourenço, describing his boyhood experience in Alburitel, 18 kilometres (11 mi) from Fátima.[30]
  • "On that day of October 13, 1917, without remembering the predictions of the children, I was enchanted by a remarkable spectacle in the sky of a kind I had never seen before. I saw it from this veranda" —  Portuguese poet Afonso Lopes Vieira.[31]
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finding-oneself ♤, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:03 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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This is a super interesting topic and I'd also noticed and assumed the connection before.

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html?m=1

I read this article the other day. Its interesting because it talks about nuts-and-bolts, vs. "High strangeness" as they call it. Which sounds similar to this topic of a&p.
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:12 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I'm praying (sic) this does not become a typical UFO/UAP topic. I think the A&P angle related to assumed alien encounters raises fascinating questions, as has been described up-topic. But a "yes/no" topic on the alien or non-alien nature of UFO/UAP doesn't belong on DhO.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:28 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Agreed. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:40 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I like the way Kenneth Folk describes experiences. As in any experience; An experience is an experience and its intensity can go from 1-10 on a slider. 1 being very weak and 10 being "WOW".

If the experience was in the form of a fantasy about aliens then it was around 1-5 and could be "just this thinking" or "what an amazing book this could be!"

If the experience is "so vivid and intense, very real!" then the slider is at 10, full-on intensity and we "normally" react with "WOW" and go on making a huge thing out of it! 

We humans do react strongly to novelty. Thats ok. But what are the body sensations associated with this "WOW experience" and what is the feeling tone? (unpacking it with vipassana)
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/24/24 5:42 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Right. Awesome. 

​​​​​​​I've had Wows at 10. They're usually very physical. Could someone have a Wow at 10 that manifests with hallucinations ?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 3:54 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Bahiya Baby
Right. Awesome. 

​​​​​​​I've had Wows at 10. They're usually very physical. Could someone have a Wow at 10 that manifests with hallucinations ?


And those physical wows are not "hallucinations"? emoticon As in "mental fabrications" emoticon  They do feel/seem very real don't they! emoticon However, we have NO WAY to verify them as being "real" or "not-real". We just don't know.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 4:08 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I guess the sense of REALNESS and OWNERSHIP is a good one to investigate when such strong experiences arise. Feels so intense and real and this is happening to me! 

So I go into it to unpack it all ... what is going on here? I look ... first things first ... any body sensations? ... feeling tones? ... mind images? ... any thinking? ... and then loop it around and see how these aspects reinforce each other to make all this experience feel like its real and that I own it.

This is for experiences that might "go on in time" ... there is a sense of a narrative in it.

There is no way to apply this if one is having an A&P Event with strong "hallucinations". This anyway happens fast and its gone, leaving us with a strong impression of it, which we then might roll on and on and on ... emoticon NOW one can use the noting apparatus to unpack this experience of remembering and reimagining the already passed away A&P Event. 

​​​​​​​Realness and Ownership. Investigate it!
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 6:36 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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One of the interesting thing to me about A&P is that they are often associated with strangeness like precognition, lucid dreams, seeing things in the room while eyes are closed, out of body experiences, sychronicities, plus all the vortex/kundalini energy stuff. I'm not saying the A&P is the woowoo stuff, just there is a strong coorellation with these things.

And of course, the UFO encounter stuff has a lot of these elements too. I'm not saying the UFO stuff is the A&P, just that all of these types of experiences seem to be coorellated. 

It's always intrigued me about why UFO encounters happen at night. Statistically it's heavily heavily skewed night time. And A&P dreams are very very common. 


I for one welcome our interstellar multidimensional neighbors. emoticon
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:07 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I have another question:

How do we diagnose specific experiences as the A&P? What is the difference between an A&P experience and a run-of-the-mill hallucination/lucid dream/vision/etc.? Is it enough for an experience to sound like the A&P, or are there more objective criteria we can apply? What would the criteria be?
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:33 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I'd say having the perceptual shifts afterwards. Like are things now flickering and strobing? Are emotions less solid and more lava lampy, etc. 
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:43 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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But.... many legitimate A&P experiences do not lead to noticeable shifts of any kind. I think there's a spectrum of A&P experience. Maybe we should ignore the low-level ones for this discussion.
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:53 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Really? I don't doubt you. But is it possible to basically get up to the A&P and not break through to the dukkha nanas? Or are you saying that they do break through but somehow things still seem the same? (That seems quite weird to me because there was such a huge shift in the solidity of emotions)
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 10:14 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I'm saying that the effects of crossing the A&P differ by person. Also, if you're not aware of or practicing under the progress of insight, it's easy to miss it altogether. In Zen, which I started my practice in, these things are dismissed, even frowned on, by roshis and teachers. So yes, it varies. So, we can see how this might play into the correlation between A&P and other similar experiences. 
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Sam N, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 12:16 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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This is an interesting topic; as it happens Michael Taft's recent podcast touches on UFO/UAP's at 34:19
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/deconstructing-yourself/id1240056193?i=1000642562953
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Siavash ', modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 3:41 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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shargrol
...
It's always intrigued me about why UFO encounters happen at night. Statistically it's heavily heavily skewed night time. And A&P dreams are very very common. 
...



Maybe the pattern of energies change at night? Maybe moon has a role in this change?
Super interesting subject!

Although it's very interesting to think about these subjects, and "solve" them, but I think if you solve it and find the (an?) answer, the beauty of it would vanish. Its mystery makes it beautiful and interesting.
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 4:36 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I think what makes it a ufo is the fact that it is unexplainable by definition. So I have no hope for getting an answer. emoticon
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 4:40 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 4:46 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Sure, there are things we don't or can't know but oh man, there is enormous beauty in knowing how this world is put together. it's beautiful that we have the wherewithall to learn, to figure out, to understand so much.. My practice was this way - an exploration of the good, the bad, all of this. The curiosity drove me,

I suppose I'm not in the "mystery is beauty" camp. 
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Sam N, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 5:21 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I think many of the nighttime experiences could also be attributed to parasomnias such as Rem Sleep Paralysis. Another interesting angle is that UFO/UAP's are faerie experiences of space-age humans. On that note, even if we had hard proof of extra terrestrial (or temporal) craft / tech, I don't think we could account for the bizarre array of alien experiences without recourse to something like fairies or spiritual phenomena.
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Sam N, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 5:22 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Love RAW!
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 6:36 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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If everything is A&P, then nothing is A&P. 

The world is complex and nuanced and made up of much more than 16 insight stages. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 7:21 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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The world is complex and nuanced and made up of much more than 16 insight stages. 

This is an interesting statement because it's open ended yet still comes across very reductionist. 

It can be true and yet one may still find it fascinating to do the kind of work organisations like the EPRC are doing. It can be true and yet one might want to study and use the POI to help understand the human condition and give support to people struggling to deal with the experiences they're having. 

Given how useful meditation and the POI were to me in greatly reducing the suffering I experienced and given the amount of people I know, not just here on this forum, that have done the same, I wouldn't be inclined to undervalue the usefulness of this particular model. 

Also given how wild some of my own A&P experiences have been and how wild some of my friends A&P experiences have been. I think there's great value in investigating the experience and looking at similar experiences people report throughout history and in our culture. This sort of stuff, it goes without saying, is fun for me and intellectually stimulating. (and potentially part of academic and therapeutic work I may do)

The world can be utterly mysterious and yet models can still be useful. 

If everyone is suffering then nobody is suffering... right? ;)

Or if i were to be cheeky about it...

Nothing is A&P and Everything is A&P
Both nothing and everything are A&P
​​​​​​​Neither nothing nor everything are A&P
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 7:29 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Nothing is A&P and Everything is A&P
Both nothing and everything are A&P
​​​​​​​Neither nothing nor everything are A&P

yeah I don't think nagarjuna was a map guy...
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 7:50 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I have had some extremely wild meditative and meditative-adjacent experiences, including full-on realistic hallucinations as well as your usual melting, merging, and bathing in celestial light. I had a country road appear in the middle of my house, across which a guy I had never seen before walked, pausing the middle of the road to turn and ask me, "What has changed?" I can't tell you how many times I've woken up in the middle of the night to find my body being torn into streams of colored particles in a boundless void. When it comes to intensity, I think I get it. 

My point is that I think it is reductionist to call all of those weird and wonderful things plain old "A&P." Some lined up with that stage of insight. Some did not. Based on those experiences of my own, I'd be reluctant to appropriate the weird and wonderful experiences of everyone in history, in all its glorious and terrifying religious and spiritual traditions, under the heading "A&P." I'd be even more reluctant to extend that to every possibly hallucinatory experience by people not involved in a spiritual endeavor. 

I am not arguing that, because the world is mysterious, models are of no use. I am arguing that, for models to be of use, they have to have boundaries. The POI is a good model. It cannot, however, explain all of subjective experience. 
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 7:53 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Man all I got is lame siddhi shit...
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 7:57 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Of course, I could just be nuts, too ;-)
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:14 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Awesome, very cool experiences. I really appreciate you sharing that. 
My point is that I think it is reductionist to call all of those weird and wonderful things plain old "A&P."

It was not my intention to do that, nor do I think I have to be honest. It was a bit of a "hey look at these interesting correlations I've noticed."

When I say A&P, as best I can understand it, I am talking about a set of neurological phenomena that I personally think are fairly normal and common to human experience but can be quite wild and potentially disorienting for people. I think it is possible for people to have POI experiences without being meditators and that doing so when separate from supportive, understanding communities may be rather difficult for them to deal with. I don't think there's anything special about the A&P in terms of "spirituality". I think it is fundamentally a mode of attention. Obviously a potentially profound one and in our terms it may lead to "spiritual insight" but in a meat and potatoes neurological sense its still a biological reality. 

I understand that saying all this stuff is A&P is reductionist but I have to stick a linguistic linchpin somewhere to have a conversation at all and I will make it very clear... Here's the controversial statement I suppose. I am talking about the POI as a biological reality, intrinsic to human experience. A facet of the nervous system. Be ye meditator or nae. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:15 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I am definitely nuts. Pecans. 
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 1/25/24 8:40 PM
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That makes sense. 
Will G, modified 2 Months ago at 1/26/24 3:59 AM
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How much explanatory power is there really in identifying something as being A&P beyond providing reassurance to a small subset of people who have observed the validity of the model in their own experience? Until people study the model in more detail, perhaps learn to manipulate or interrupt it, describe what's going on at the level of the brain, etc. it isn't much less mysterious to label something A&P than UFO. It basically has as much explanatory power as astrology, and this is coming from someone who has observed these cycles rather consistently in my own experience for many years.
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/26/24 8:25 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Will G, I think the point is that there are things human beings experience that may be explained/described by a not-well-known phenomenon. It's not definitive and, like Martin says, I don't think it can be pinned down. But it's a new entry in the sweepstakes aimed at describing the roots of alien encounters.
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Griffin, modified 2 Months ago at 1/27/24 7:28 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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A lot of the dark night is fundamentally jungian achetypes and individualtion, along with any remaining freudian-type repressions that need to be exposed. 
Is there by any chance some source that goes into details about parallels between DN and Jung/Freud etc.?
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/27/24 10:17 AM
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Not that I'm aware of, that's just my personal conjecture/coorelation. Let us/me know if you find anything good.
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 9:35 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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That dream Daniel describes in MCTB, in which a witch zaps him in to a million pieces with a wand - it happens in alien encounters too.

"Far down the road appeared a cloud of grey dust, and suddenly emerging from that dust cloud was a huge black horse ridden by a huge witch dressed in black. She pulled out a wand and pointed it at us, and a blinding bolt of white light flew from the wand and my entire world exploded into fragments flying around the room where I had been sleeping, as at this point it makes sense to me to think of myself as awake, just totally blown apart with my body flying around the room in something like sparks"

Vallee says that clouds and smoke are common features of old visitations of the folklore kind, before modern UFO stories started emerging. Wand-like instruments are common, and there are accounts of being zapped into fragments by aliens.
Can't remember right now which book I read it in, possibly a John Mack one.
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 9:57 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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St Teresa..... "It pleased our Lord that I should see the following vision a number of times. I saw an angel near me, on the left side, in bodily form. This I am not wont to see, save very rarely.... In this vision it pleased the Lord that I should see it thus. He was not tall, but short, marvellously beautiful, with a face which shone as though he were one of the highest of the angels, who seem to be all of fire: they must be those whom we call Seraphim.... I saw in his hands a long golden spear, and at the point of the iron there seemed to be a little fire. This I thought that he thrust several times into my heart, and that it penetrated to my entrails. When he drew out the spear he seemed to be drawing them with it, leaving me all on fire with a wondrous love for God. The pain was so great that it caused me to utter several moans; and yet so exceeding sweet is this greatest of pains that it is impossible to desire to be rid of it, or for the soul to be content with less than God."

Also quite similar to some alien encounters.

I would be interested to see how many mystics don't do it on pure contemplation alone, but have help from some form of spirit being along the way. It's supposed to be all practice, right? However I can imagine issues with people wanting to encounter beings that give them a boost, and it goes all wrong.
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 10:19 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Yeah I'd hate for an angel to show up and start stabbing me. You'd just have to sit there saying "unpleasant unpleasant unpleasant" and he would think you're an idiot!
Martin, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 10:56 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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You might be interested in Rob Burbea's talks on the imaginal. He reported that a lion more-or-less possessed his body and that, later, the lion came back and ate his liver, which he found to be healing. 
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 11:08 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Thing about A&P visions - correct me if I'm wrong - is that they don't leave burn marks on the ground, implants, radiation sickness or bits of material that can be taken to a lab.
Or is that true? Have monks of yore been left with miraculous objects and other such physical things - holy relics?

(Granting that the idea here might be that there is no great distinction between physical and mental.)
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 11:26 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Thing about A&P visions - correct me if I'm wrong - is that they don't leave burn marks on the ground, implants, radiation sickness or bits of material that can be taken to a lab.

​​​​​​​Once again, let's not turn this topic into an "are there or aren't there aliens" one. This is about the A&P and how it can manifest in so many different ways.  Not about UFO/UAPs being evidence, or not, of aliens.

Thanks.
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 12:03 PM
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It's looking like secular governmental institutions are going to end up saying the same things as religious institutions :-)
Wonder what the Vatican has got?
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 1:12 PM
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Well, can A&P manifest with physical stuff, is the question I'm asking there.
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/28/24 1:20 PM
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Did anyone have any owl, as in the bird, encounter relative to their A&P?
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Dream Walker, modified 2 Months ago at 1/29/24 7:35 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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A fun book to read regarding abduction is -

The Professor and the Madman: A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of the Oxford English Dictionary
by Simon Winchester

The fascinating part, is that the person in prison continued to have abductions by the "Irish" instead of Aliens. His accounts are funny and sad, when automobiles became a common thing then his abductions incorporated being taken and drove around by "Irish". 
I have not found such amazing descriptions of the past with that alternative narrative especially incorporating new modes of transportation while imprisoned during the advent of autos.
fun stuff, especially considering he was also the number 1 contributor to the creation of the first dictionary
~D
Stickman3, modified 2 Months ago at 1/29/24 7:41 AM
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I've heard of chariots in the sky, and galleons, but never Paddies in cars :-)
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/30/24 8:12 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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This is an interesting guru Viking interview for this thread

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3mD7ZG9jdnJPNUsozDnPmE?si=NekV_YSOQOaaKtzvRVHtqA 

basically this guy kept getting vision after vision of gurus (years apart) of like Jesus, gurus, and lamas. And what's interesting is he switches spiritual paths a ton (like Christian, Sufi a few times, Tibetan Buddhism, studied under osho), finds a new teacher, and then seems (to me at least) to end up in some sort of a spiritual crisis eventually. He even got to a place (at least) once where he felt like there was nothing to do and everything around him felt super clear. I find it a bit sad, because in the podcast he openly questions if enlightenment is a real thing and what it would even mean, after a lifetime of searching for something. 
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Sam N, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 8:45 AM
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It's iteresting that all his visions and dreams impelled him to find some one, some group, some thing outside of himself. At the risk of psychologizing his drive, it seems he had a strong need to belong which makes sense given his childhood. I guess we can all relate to some of that. But it didn't seem sad to me that he was skeptical about The Big E. Honestly I found the pocast really tedious :-) I definitely won't be listening to part 2.
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 10:14 AM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Oh yeah it was a bit tedious for sure. But I think both the presentation and outcomes are a bit of a warning against buying into the content of visions too much. Then the quest for spirituality just becomes another one of the mind's stories. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 4:00 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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I've JUST NOW seen an alien!!!
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 4:36 PM
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It's aliens all the way down.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 4:39 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Or up! emoticon 
shargrol, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 4:55 PM
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Sam N, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 4:59 PM
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What is the sound of one alien clapping?
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Bahiya Baby, modified 2 Months ago at 1/31/24 5:10 PM
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RE: UFO'S and the A&P

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Nanu nanu 

Calling occupants of interplanetary craft

https://youtu.be/wQgKdwQ56EM?si=iciB_4SCqo0xdMHe
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 2/1/24 6:32 AM
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​​​​​​​
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 2/1/24 7:33 PM
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The last time you posted such a large photo you blocked Tim's entire log! 
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Chris M, modified 2 Months ago at 2/1/24 7:49 PM
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So I managed to constipate Tim's log?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 2 Months ago at 2/1/24 8:12 PM
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