Todo MCTB-2 readings

Todo, modified 2 Months ago at 3/20/24 5:04 PM
Created 2 Months ago at 3/20/24 5:04 PM

Todo MCTB-2 readings

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"We reasoned some sort of  non-dual wisdom arising from direct experience was the only way to go"
Yes! Just direct experience! No added fabrications!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 3/21/24 10:32 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/21/24 10:32 PM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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... emoticon and the "direct experience" is NOT a fabrication of the mind? emoticon 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 7:53 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 7:53 AM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Good question, Papa. Isn't every experience a fabrication of the mind?
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 8:56 AM
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RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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From MCTB-2:
​​​​​​​“Some people say there is mind. I say there is no mind, but never mind! Heh, heh, heh!”
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 8:58 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 8:58 AM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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From the Dhammapada:
​​​​​​​
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts, suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 10:14 AM
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RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Isn't every experience a fabrication of the mind?
I am going to step into the minefield here:

Mind is the sixth sense door. What it perceives is thought. If this is correct, the first, direct, raw impression of any sense door could be said to be "not fabricated". Anything added to it could be called "a fabrication".

Scientists would tell us that even that first "impression" is the result of a lot of processing but that's not what our first person perspective tells us.

Phenomenologically speaking the unfabricated can only be that first contact. Anything prior to that is speculative.

Please do me a favor, show where the above is wrong so I could learn and refine my understanding.
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 3:23 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 3:23 PM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Where are all the things you perceive created? You aren't capable of direct perception because your brain/mind is caged inside your skull and not in direct contact with the things you see, hear, feel, taste, etc. The processing taking place is the mind making sense of the electrochemical information it receives from sense organs via nerve channels.

So, again, where are all the things you perceive being created? I'm with Papa and the Dhammapada. The mind does it, and what a marvelous thing it is!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 4:11 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 4:10 PM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Chris M
Good question, Papa. Isn't every experience a fabrication of the mind?
Yeah well emoticon I can't get out of it (so to speak) to validate this so ... "don't know" would be most acurate answer but if we assume all is mind than "all is mind". 

As one Tibetan dude once said "the whole view fake" (like all of it) so don't worry be happy now emoticon It's all good. 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 5:13 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 5:13 PM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Bob Marley quote!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 5:23 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 5:22 PM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Chris M
Bob Marley quote!


Nope! emoticon Boddy McFerrin quote! emoticon 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 5:47 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/22/24 5:47 PM

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Yeah - my error!

Bob Marley said, "Don't worry 'bout a thing. Every little thing's gonna be alright"
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 3/23/24 9:07 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/23/24 9:07 AM

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Chris, 
sorry I am not sure how to quote you in my reply as you seem all to do so well. 

My point is that the scientists probably know somehow what they are talking about but I can't know it for sure for myself, from first person perspective. How could I? I don't even know that I have a brain! 

Does this make sense? 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/23/24 9:20 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/23/24 9:19 AM

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As a human being, and as a practical matter, I think you have a brain. I also think you have a mind. I'm skeptical of the science in this area, as the scientists regularly disagree and often change their views on consciousness and "what is reality"-type phenomena.
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 3/23/24 1:58 PM
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RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Training in morality is the first & the last training. 
Yes! This is simply Huge but often neglected!
​​​​​​​
How many posts on the DHO deal with this subject compared to posts dealing with other things.  Including such esoteric subjects such as talking with the dead & remembering past lives?
Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 3/27/24 11:52 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/27/24 11:52 PM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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It seems that what Chris (& others here) call "mind" is what I would call "awareness" while what I was referring to as mind is the sense organ that senses "thoughts".
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 3/28/24 8:16 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/28/24 7:57 AM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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It seems that what Chris (& others here) call "mind" is what I would call "awareness" while what I was referring to as mind is the sense organ that senses "thoughts".

My not-so-clear attempt at clarity:

Mind is that which is aware and that which has awareness as part of its nature. Be careful not to confuse "mind" with "brain." I see the brain as a sense organ (a physical object that can process incoming sense data), and I see the mind as a conceptually non-physical, virtually infinite capability to produce awareness, self-awareness, sentience, consciousness, thought, emotions, objects, self, etc. Currently, science claims no physical correlates between the brain and the mind/consciousness. Consciousness, the purview of the mind, and for which there are many theories, remains a mystery.
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Stirling Campbell, modified 1 Month ago at 3/28/24 10:46 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 3/28/24 10:44 AM

RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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Todo It seems that what Chris (& others here) call "mind" is what I would call "awareness" while what I was referring to as mind is the sense organ that senses "thoughts".

Seems like a good place for this:

To my mind, the principal obstacle to a deep integration of Buddhist insight and scientific discovery is the uncritical acceptance among many scientists—and increasingly the general public—of the metaphysical principles of scientific materialism. The fundamental belief of this scientific materialism is that the whole of reality consists only of space-time and matter-energy, and their emergent properties. This implies that the only true causation is physical causation, that there are no nonphysical influences in the universe. When applied to human existence, this worldview implies that subjective experience is either physical—despite all evidence to the contrary—or doesn’t exist at all, which is simply insulting to our intelligence. As the philosopher John R. Searle states in his book The Rediscovery of the Mind, “Earlier materialists argued that there aren’t any such things as separate mental phenomena, because mental phenomena are identical with brain states. More recent materialists argue that there aren’t any such things as separate mental phenomena because they are not identical with brain states. I find this pattern very revealing, and what it reveals is an urge to get rid of mental phenomena at any cost. It is commonplace nowadays to equate the mind with the brain, or to insist that the mind is nothing more than a function of the brain. But this is merely a metaphysical belief that has never been validated through scientific research. While the mind and brain are clearly correlated in precise ways that have been revealed through advances in cognitive neuroscience, the exact nature of those correlations remains a mystery. This mystery, however, is veiled by the illusion of knowledge that the mind-body problem has already been solved. But, while all other branches of modern science have focused on the direct observation of the natural phenomena they seek to understand, the cognitive sciences have insisted on avoiding such direct observation of mental phenomena. The simple reason for this choice is that subjectively experienced mental processes and states of consciousness do not fit within the materialist paradigm that has dominated science since the beginning of the 20th century. - B. Allan Wallace, from "Six Questions for B. Alan Wallace"

https://tricycle.org/article/six-questions-b-alan-wallace/

Todo, modified 1 Month ago at 3/28/24 3:00 PM
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RE: Todo MCTB-2 readings

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From MCTB2:
"Since I just used this dangerous term “mind”, I should quickly mention that it cannot be located. I'm certainly not talking about the brain, which we have never experienced, since the standard for insight practices is what we can directly experience."

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