John's Log

John Lillis, modified 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 12:33 AM
Created 21 Days ago at 4/7/24 10:08 PM

John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
Howdy, everyone! I love this forum so much. Long-time lurker.

I first meditated in 2018. I only did it once that year, but it left me with a blissful afterglow and the sense that meditation was important. I'd do it off and on over the following years, but really committed to a regular practice in 2022. Reading Mindfulness in Plain English was motivational, particularly the talk about the part of us that is always rejecting reality, always tensing, always defending and controlling. After hearing Daniel's interview on the Ten Percent Happier Podcast, I read MCTB and fell in love with his approach.

I started noting. I'd do my best to track the breath, noting "breathing" about every 2 seconds. When something distracted me, I'd note that too. I was comfortable going on long tangents, noting random stuff that happened without returning to the breath. I was also practicing throughout daily life.

In July 2023, I went on a 7 day retreat at Deer Park Monastery near San Diego. (That place is nice—super mushroomy, no Noble Silence, no concepts or frameworks, few dedicated practitioners, but cheap, with places to hide away and meditate, and beautiful grounds and helpful monks.) A monk told me to open my eyes as I sit, and this resolved my dullness issues. I reckon I hit the A&P—experiencing reality as super fast and immediate and being totally hyper.

Fear and sorrow soon followed, but it took me a few months to realize it may be the insight stages. I continued noting. While walking, I would use the sensations of my head as a noting anchor. I actually really hated noting with an anchor, and looking back, I probably didn't need one. It felt too contractive. I also hated watching the breath. I eventually dropped the anchor and went wherever the mind took me.

I remember a remarkable session where I started sitting, but spontaneously got up and threw myself around my apartment for an hour, contorting my face in hyperbolic grief, fear, anger, etc. It was all experienced as not-self, with the help of Ken McLeod's "Look at it _____" noting . During this period, I was generally miserable, although this is confounded by it also being my first semester of law school.

I began to experience weird, violent, highly powerful rips of energy enter my sense field and rattle around. I resisted them at first, since it felt like they'd "hit" me and destroy me. But they were harmless, and so I relaxed. It's almost like they were teaching me that there was nothing that could be hit, nothing that could be destroyed.

I also experienced all manner of involuntary movements: swaying, flinching, gasping, convulsions, burying my head, pouting, planting my hands on my face like The Scream. I had to repeatedly resolve: "For the sake of my respiratory system, I will stop gasping."

After a while of that, I would break into Equanimity and feel okay. The fear and anger would abate. And then return. And then leave, and return. The A&P would also recur—during those times, I'm sure some of my friends wondered what I was smoking. Once settled in Equanimity, I dropped noting and just watched the mind without labelling it. I was able to settle in the gentle flow of it all, without controlling where attention went, and then reality stopped and restarted on October 17, 2023.

It felt like I was in a crowded restaurant with a bunch of noisy conversations, but suddenly, everyone started whispering. Thoughts would still come and go, but they didn't yank me around like before. Even though it felt like I had "learned" a layer of the mind, a new one presented itself. I was being tugged along, moment to moment, by non-verbal attraction and aversion. Wanting this, not wanting that, being this, trying not to be that, avoiding this or grasping for that. I had an intuitive confidence that if I watched this process for long enough, it would be put to rest. It was painful! With enough time, I thought my mind could understand that. 

I kept watching the mindstream. One day, I was just laying on my bed, watching the mind, when my body got up and started doing little chores on its own. I realized that I didn't ever need to exert any control at all, and that life would continue on. This allowed me to shed a lot of resistance and guilt about my productivity. Every day no longer needed to be a wrestling match with my mind. I did not need to resist the vices I hated. I could just surrender. 

I went through the insight stages again and had another cessation on November 14. Sometimes, in daily life, I felt like the concept/image of my body would detach from my actual location, and, like, crawl around on the floor or roll around. My senses would stay normal. One day, while studying, I decided to try surrendering while in the very act of studying. Something clicked, and I experienced 10 minutes or so of seemingly no contraction. I didn't keep studying, of course; I walked around outside and checked stuff out. Everything was happening spontaneously with no obvious sense of control. I don't think it was a perfect non-dual experience, though. 

After a third trip through the insight stages, I had another cessation on December 2. This time it happened while I was washing my hands, rather than in formal meditation. Everything did itself, it seemed. Even the emotions. There was still a sense of subtle control, though. 

The next day, I went down to sit and couldn't find any contractions to investigate. This made me nervous: how the heck do I meditate now? I proceeded to massively over-effort my meditation for an hour or so. I hung out with my girlfriend later that day, and I was tense. We were walking down a hallway when I lost the ability to move in anything faster than slow motion. I couldn't think normally, either. Just locked up. It wasn't until I said goodbye and left her building that normal movement returned. I decided to stop juicing the effort so much, and just went back to my normal technique. Within a few days, the remaining contraction bubbled up and became obvious.

About a week later, I was meditating and had another non-dual experience, this one seemingly more centerless and easy. While in it, I ran into my buddy and proceeded to act all goofy. I had to lean on him to walk at a normal pace, but I was able to run on my own. At one point I kind of sunk to the ground and didn't get up, and he asked me why I'm on the floor, and I told him I didn't decide to be on the floor. I was able to get up not soon thereafter, though.

I was able to navigate my finals by just watching my mind. I didn't try to really "take control" at any point. I think that helped keep me sane. My behavior was still not up to my ideals, but it happened on its own. 

The difficult stuff about my experience was no longer the emotions. Rather, it was this burning sensation present in every moment. It was a non-verbal resistance to all experience, a rejection, a greed for something else, a fear, a desperate defense. I had a crushing grief that everyone else was secretly suffering just as much as I was, they just didn't know it.

One day in December, I felt totally depressed. Just hollow. No vigor, even though I was out with my girlfriend and her family. I was sitting in my car afterward, reading this site, when I read a post by someone claiming fourth path. They said that their path-moment came when they realized that "There is no fundamental difference between: an acute lack of self in the fourth jhana; a vague sense of self while zoning out on a long driving trip; and an acute sense of self while shameful" (paraphrasing). My mood suddenly did a 180, everything felt really nice and pristine, and everything seemed to completely do itself. This lasted for maybe six hours. I think I had been really frustrated by being unable to abolish that "vague sense of self" mode, and so this let me let go of that resistance.

I woke up the next day feeling like shit. Everything still seemed to be doing itself though, so I started to believe that I had "done it," and that this was just what it was like. I started looking into Actualism (heh heh heh). I went on another 7 day retreat in January, planning on learning the jhanas because, again, I thought I was "done." Within an hour of that retreat, though, I realized I was very much not done. I pivoted to insight. 

I was doing "drop the ball"/"do nothing" practice, which was nice, but too low-energy. I felt zoned out. I started watching the mind again about half-way through and felt reinvigorated. I felt pangs of fear—not like the hum of the Fear ñana, but more like "slowly falling into the cosmic woodchipper," as Sasha Chapin puts it. 

Toward the end, I would watch the mind and my vision would suddenly become much more panoramic, but then quickly contract again. I went through that pattern many times. "Watching the mind" felt very effortful, like I really had to hold onto this super fast zipping-around thing.

It's April now. The effort I expend has become much more subtle. It's dawned on me that it's really about knowing the moment as it is, however it is. It's not about trying to change the moment by clenching onto some elusive thing. Or vaporizing the moment through ultra-vipassana. My vision is quite panoramic, the non-doer dominates, there is a good amount of space, I don't try to control stuff. I think I've been having a cessation every few weeks.
John Lillis, modified 21 Days ago at 4/7/24 10:27 PM
Created 21 Days ago at 4/7/24 10:15 PM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
These days, my practice feels like it's about learning to trust that abiding in presence is truly and always safe.

Since middle school, I've had an urgent feeling of inadequacy regarding my work. It feels like I'm not working hard enough, and so doom is around the corner. 

Recently, I had an essay due, and I had this vivid experience of being totally powerless to work on it for a few days straight. I would surrender, that wouldn't work. I'd try to grip and control as hard as I could, and that wouldn't work. I'd rest and rest and rest and then try to work, and that wouldn't work. It simply seemed impossible to work on this thing. I had to wait until the panic hammer dropped. And once it dropped, I began work effortlessly and spontaneously, and the thing wrote itself.

I've been afraid that this surrender stuff is the cause of my procrastination. I've somewhat quelled this, at least on the not-unconscious level, by repeatedly seeing that contraction doesn't help.
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All I've ever wanted to do is control my behavior. That's why I got into meditation, really. I thought it'd let me work harder, be kinder. I really care about being moral! So it's very frustrating when I don't meet my standards for morality—mostly in the form of not working hard enough.

Yesterday I realized that I was operating on the assumption that what "I" cared about was what the anxious voice in my head cared about. That there was a conflict between "my true desire" and my body which petulantly refused to follow my values. Rather than make any conclusions about my "true values," I could simply accept not knowing what I actually want, be present, and see what happens naturally.

Thanks to Bahiya Babe for encouraging me to start this log. 
Martin, modified 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 10:22 AM
Created 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 10:22 AM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 807 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
That's great detail! You really seem to have a natural sensitivity to the anatta stuff. 

I'm curious about the cessations you mention. What are they like? What ceases?

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John Lillis, modified 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 11:07 AM
Created 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 10:59 AM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
Hi Martin, thanks for reading.

My first few cessations were not so remarkable. I'd be engrossed in meditation, and then suddenly, in the next moment, I was left with the sense that time just skipped. It felt like waking up from unconsciousness; like the mind restarting. I have no memory of the gap. 

More recently, my cessations have gained a "what the fuck" factor. For one, I remember watching one thing happen, then the next, then I saw something much more complete and alarming, and then the next moment felt like "returning from nonexistence." Like I forgot who I am, and it takes a second to remember. 

It's totally possible that the feeling of "returning from nonexistence" is 100% fake and scripted. It all just happens so fast. But as far as I can tell, the practice instructions are the same regardless, so I'm not too concerned.
Martin, modified 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 11:28 AM
Created 21 Days ago at 4/8/24 11:28 AM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 807 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Thanks! That's helpful.

​​​​​​​I'm just curious about the different ways cessations are experienced. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 4/8/24 8:41 PM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/8/24 8:41 PM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 469 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
What was experience like after this first cessation, day by day, how did you feel, what was different about experience?

During subsequent insight stages, what was different about passing through them from the first time?
John Lillis, modified 20 Days ago at 4/8/24 10:21 PM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/8/24 9:54 PM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
Sorry, I can't reliably recall how I felt on the subsequent days. The paragraph about the whispering restaurant captures my day-before to day-after experience. In Equanimity, I was able to watch sensations directly and see them flux, and that became my baseline after the cessation. Vision was more panoramic, I think.

After that point, dark nights were less about being in an angry/anxious/sorrowful mood (and being identified with that mood) and more about putting up with the discomfort of the raw ñana sensations in the body and in 3D space. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 12:45 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/8/24 11:22 PM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 469 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Ok, there was nothing significant about the week after the first cessation, besides this whispering restaurant situation? How do you experience the Nanas or Jhanas? What was your experience of meditation like? 

See, I think cessations while important are also fairly nebulous. I never view reported cessations, on there own, as evidence of anything, it's what follows them that I find to be most diagnostic, in my own experience it's really not the cessations that I'm after.

I'm definitely reading a lot of a&p, dark night and eq stuff but it's hard to know. I hope you keep posting. Keeping a log over the last year or so has been of great benefit to me and I really think it's a wonderful addition to a meditators practice !!

Keeping a log is very powerful because we can transcend any reliance on dharma lingo and through shared communication arrive at a deeper understanding of practice and where we're at. 

​​​​​​​One more question. If you're having a cessation every few weeks. What is the build up to that like? 
John Lillis, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 12:43 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 12:43 AM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
I wouldn't say that there was nothing significant about the following days. Rather, I can't recall with confidence; this all happened quite quickly and it all blends together. The restaurant analogy was my attempt to describe a dramatic shift in my mental software.

I do remember sitting down and trying out concentration meditation soon after the cessation and getting a pretty intense body buzz. On a separate day, I tried it out and "I" melded with the nice sensations so that my head felt like a bliss-brick. I'm not sure how that'd be categorized. I quickly went back to insight and haven't made a serious effort to cultivate the jhanas. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 12:48 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 12:47 AM

RE: John's Log

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I just updated my last message with another question. I shall add some more here too !!

​​​​​​​What is your experience with the jhanas? Do you find you have access to them? Can you sit and call them up? Have you explored the formless jhanas?
John Lillis, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 1:42 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 1:22 AM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
@bahiyababy
The ñanas are much less obvious than they used to be. They don't dominate attention. Fear feels like a subtle hum of terror-sensations. The A&P is harder to miss—it feels like a sudden explosion, some half-real currents of energy swirling around, a little extra energy and enthusiasm and pleasure. If I'm tired, though, my body can feel a little weary of that energy, like a slight burn-out. I think I've experienced Misery as heartbreak-y feelings somewhere in the field recently, but I can't recall. (I don't really track these things, sorry.) Sometimes my hands or lips will feel huge—that's Mind and Body, right? I've experienced the A&P to Fear cycle in the run-up to every cessation so far. 

I make some pretty big claims in this post, so I understand and appreciate your questioning. But as far as I know, my place on the maps doesn't really make a difference technique-wise, right? 

Edit: Also, have you had any experiences with procrastination on the path? Or, more generally, being afraid of losing motivation for something as you surrender?
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 1:41 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 1:41 AM

RE: John's Log

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That's a great question. Yes and no, in my opinion, what is most important is regular dialogue and pointing out instruction and that can largely be done with minimal mapping. Technique can change a lot over time, if often in just very subtle ways. At some point "do nothing" might be enough, we might consider that an advanced practice, yet, a month later we might find ourselves needing to do something more directed, more fundamental. It all shifts and changes. 

On the other side of things there are specific techniques, or even approaches to meditation that I have found useful throughout the stages. Get peripheral during the DN, read Shargrol's EQ stuff when in EQ, etc. The nice thing about keeping a log here is you don't always have to rely on yourself to map (or not map). There's always weird stuff, like the weird meta darknight that can happen in equanimity and beyond first path the sort of fractalling Nanas can be pretty odd. 

By what I've read you've done some great meditation. That's awesome. I commend you for that. I think few people really go this way and I'm always delighted to see people make a commitment to practice. 

I'm not much of a diagnostician. So I'm not actually trying to find out where you're at "on the maps" as much as I'm trying to find out "where you're at". If I thought I could deduce where you are on the maps I would undoubtedly be wrong as I almost always am when I map myself. emoticon 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 5:01 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 1:43 AM

RE: John's Log

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Also, have you had any experiences with procrastination on the path? Or, more generally, being afraid of losing motivation for something as you surrender?

Yeah, it's natural. 

The loosening of attachment can have some very odd effects... but most of the odd effects are fear about losing the attachment or astonishment that we managed to live so long obsessing over such a silly thing. 

I am currently procrastinating !! ;) I have been for months emoticon
Martin, modified 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 11:47 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 4/9/24 11:47 AM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 807 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
This is an interesting area. On one hand, it is logical to be afraid of losing motivation for something as you surrender, on the other hand, there is nothing to fear on the other side of surrender (that being the point of surrender).

If motivation for practice decreases proportionally with suffering, there is no problem. I think many people practice, learn/change, and then move on to another life focus. That's fine. If a person doesn't prefer awakening, there is nothing inherently better about being awakened. This does not apply when someone is stuck in an unpleasant part of the POI. A person in that position would want to keep going. But, if suffering is greatly reduced, then the motivation to get it all the way to zero might not be as high as the motivation for other pursuits. Rob Burbea talks about this a lot. (If anyone is interested, I will hunt down one of the talks.)

The thing that keeps me meditating and enquiring is the beauty of it. Meditation itself can be ridiculously beautiful, like a trip to an art gallery. But, in particular, the off-the-cushion stuff, of seeing the world unfold, grows in richness as practice deepens. Seeing both the projector and the screen with increasing clarity is like receiving an unending series of tiny, beautiful gifts. I think that, if you turn to that side of it, motivation will take care of itself. 
John Lillis, modified 17 Days ago at 4/12/24 1:32 AM
Created 17 Days ago at 4/12/24 1:32 AM

RE: John's Log

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Bahiya and Martin, thank you for the beautiful and insightful replies. 
John Lillis, modified 10 Days ago at 4/19/24 4:03 PM
Created 10 Days ago at 4/18/24 7:44 PM

RE: John's Log

Posts: 17 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
Hey folks. The doubt-wave has subsided, and I'm feeling very safe in presence. Things are often more vivid than I thought possible. Sometimes the dualistic tension is quite annoying. I had a particularly strong Disgust experience a couple days ago.

I recently joined Twitter and found some quotes on the theme of surrender.

Adyashanti
"The desire to control is, ultimately, our unwillingness to just be awake."

"Life sustains itself. Let go of the ego and life takes care of itself through you."

Alan Watts
"No amount of anxiety makes any difference to anything that is going to happen."

Joe Hudson
"Shame is the lock that holds the chains of bad habits in place."

Kali Banks
"Give up the idea of having problems."

Robert Adams
"Never be frightened again by anything. If I can make this perfectly clear to you. Never allow anything in this world to ever frighten you. Allow things to unfold as they may. Just watch and observe, hold on to the truth. Happiness will come of its own accord."

"In Western psychology, we're told that you never give up. We are taught to keep on fighting. But there is nothing to fight, and the only thing you're giving up is your ego. Western psychology has never gone beyond this. Therefore they do not know of life beyond this."

Kaviji
"Surrender is the end
Of the self
That wants to barter its way
Through life."

"The closer you get to the flame
The more of yourself
You must throw into the fire."

"If you realized
That fighting it
Only feeds the pain
You would stop fighting it
And start loving it."

"It’s amazing
How much of our personal suffering
Comes from our argument
With the way we are."

Lao Tsu
"When the ancient Masters said, 'If you want to be given everything, give everything up,' they weren't using empty phrases."

"The Tao never does anything, yet through it all things are done."

"Those who try to control, who use force to protect their power, go against the direction of the Tao."

"Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself?"

Jacob Black
"You don’t have to solve your problems to set down your burden."

Roger Thisdell
"First, I tried to change reality.
Second, I tried to simply understand reality.
Third, I stopped trying to do either.
And then life revealed itself to itself as itself."

Nick Cammarata
"You’re being told the story of your life, and any resistance to the present moment of experience just clogs the system and causes suffering; the story doesn’t want to be interfered with."

EditTwo interesting experiences that I forgot to mention—
  • About a month ago, I was in the Target parking lot when I totally forgot absolutely anything about who I am. It was like that normal hum of aliveness stopped cold. It felt like a huge relief! It felt like that aliveness, that "me" energy, that human energy was none other than SUFFERING. The ego quickly came back online, and I was left with a sense that it'd be just so nice to return to that void. I didn't register this as a cessation then, but looking back I think it was.
  • While on my last meditation retreat, I was putting on a sock when suddenly there was absolute and eternal silence and stillness for about half a second. There was no "me" to register this experience. It just happened. There wasn't a sense of it happening; there was no time. Eternal. Silence. There was still perception in some minimal way; there was still seeing of the sock being put on. I'm guessing that was a perfect glimpse of non-duality. In the half a second later, "I" came back into existence. I started defending myself against reality again. It left me with the sense that there was a good way to go before I could drop all those defenses. And that normal experience had so much pain.