Rob Green
I thought fruition was like synonymous for awakening. Not super familiar with the theory.
The theory says fruition is stream entry.
So some people just accept it as a definition rather than understanding what the process of awakening is.
Ron Crouch explains that
fruition is stream entry because it undermines identity view:
As you reflect on it you see that there was something truly amazing about that moment. In that instant everything disappeared, including you. It was a moment of complete non-occurrence, the absolute opposite of everything that has ever happened in your life up to this moment, because it could not really be said to have happened to you. No doubt, it is a weird realization, but there it is. Following the experience of this absolute nothing is what my teacher aptly calls a “bliss wave.” For some time following this moment of alighting upon Nirvana you feel really relaxed and fresh. These two experiences, seeing that you disappeared and that you also feel great because of it, lead to a very important discovery that will shape how you view yourself from this point forward. You begin to understand in a very deep way that there really is something to this whole idea that the cravings of a “self” are the root of suffering. When it was gone, even for an instant, life suddenly got much better.
(There is more on this subject at the link.)
But as a practical matter, based on what experiencers say and what Daniel wote (see my previous post above), fruition does not always give a person insight into identity view.
In
this video Daniel says:
So it would be if someone said to me, "Oh yeah, I've got a car." And I said, "Ok, let me see your car." And they took me out back, and there was a burned out old shell of a car on blocks. And you can call it a car, maybe, but it doesn't do all the things a car is supposed to do. And there are actually things that do what cars are supposed to do.
And so linguistically, I think of stream entry as a question of function. If it doesn't function like stream entry, well then pragmatically or practically, it's not stream entry, just like a burned out shell of a car is not a car. And so if whatever you think of a stream entry is not performing like stream entry should perform, with natural cycling, with rapid access to states, with hopefully repeat fruition, maybe even multiples, maybe even if you're lucky duration, and clear presentation of doors that eventually become easily distinguished from random state shifts or random formless realm things. Then, there's no point in calling that stream entry, because it's not doing what stream entry should do.
It looks to me like Daniel isn't talking about identity view, but if you believe removing identity view is the main ingredient in stream entry (and that is something the vast majority of Buddhists believe), then the sentiment applies. If "stream entry" doesn't remove identity view, it's just like a burnt out shell of car is not a car.
It's a short video here is the full transcript:
Hey.
Welcome to a video about diagnosing stream entry.
Well, I routinely get questions which are basically, "Will you diagnose me?" or "See if I have stream entry." or "Confirm that this is stream entry" or "What do you think of this experience, was that stream entry?"
Regardless of the specifics, there are four basic cases.
The first is they do not have stream entry, and some person on a forum, or me, or whoever else says, you don't have stream entry. Ok. Good. No problem.
The next case is they do have stream entry, and someone says, you have stream entry. Okay. Now you can identify with an attainment or whatever, or maybe that can cause some hiccups. Not that much of a problem.
The next case is that they do have street entry and someone says, you do not have stream entry. Well, they have stream entry so while that can cause a little bit of confusion, it's relatively minimal, and the attainment is what it is, regardless of whether or not someone calls it that.
But the last case is the serious problem, and that's where they do not have stream entry and someone says: you have stream entry. And in this case, they've just been totally screwed if they believe that.
And not only have they been screwed, they will go around spreading this crazy to other people and they will call things like the arising and passing away, which is by far the most common mimic, stream entry. And they will call equanimity stream entry. And they will call some momentary opening into some formless realm or something else stream entry. Or a momentary taste of boundless consciousness or boundless space or nothingness, or neither perception or non perception, they will call that stream entry.
But stream entry should perform like stream entry. It should do all the things that stream entry should do. and if it doesn't do that well, then what is it?
So it would be if someone said to me, "Oh yeah, I've got a car." And I said, "Ok, let me see your car." And they took me out back, and there was a burned out old shell of a car on blocks. And you can call it a car, maybe, but it doesn't do all the things a car is supposed to do. And there are actually things that do what cars are supposed to do.
And so linguistically, I think of stream entry as a question of function. If it doesn't function like stream entry, well then pragmatically or practically, it's not stream entry, just like a burned out shell of a car is not a car. And so if whatever you think of a stream entry is not performing like stream entry should perform, with natural cycling, with rapid access to states, with hopefully repeat fruition, maybe even multiples, maybe even if you're lucky duration, and clear presentation of doors that eventually become easily distinguished from random state shifts or random formless realm things. Then, there's no point in calling that stream entry, because it's not doing what stream entry should do.
So I hope this video has helped, and I hope that there is a whole lot more terminological sobriety and skepticism and reasonable performance testing in the world of path and state and stage diagnosis.
Good luck.
Practice well.
Best wishes.
Thank you.
Shinzen Young says that
most of his students awaken gradually. Based on his description it seems to me they are not awakening from fruition. Fruition happens in an instant, there is (supposedly) a dramatic change - that isn't gradual.
When it happens suddenly and dramatically you’re in seventh heaven. It’s like after the first experience of love, you’ll never be the same. However, for most people who’ve studied with me it doesn’t happen that way. What does happen is that the person gradually works through the things that get in the way of enlightenment, but so gradually that they might not notice. What typically happens is that over a period of years, and indeed decades, within that person the craving, aversion, and unconsciousness—the mula kleshas (the fundamental “impurities”), get worked through. But because all this is happening gradually they’re acclimatizing as it’s occurring and they may not realize how far they’ve come. That’s why I like telling the story about the samurai.
This samurai went to the Zen temple on the mountain and lived there for many years. He didn’t seem to be getting anything out of the practice. So he said to the Master, “I think I need to leave. Nothing’s happening as a result of this practice.” So the master said, “Okay. Go.” As he was coming down the hill one of his former comrades, a fellow samurai, saw him in the tattered robes of a Buddhist monk, which is equivalent to a glorified beggar from a samurai’s point of view, and he said, “How could you be so undignified to join the counter-culture of Buddhist beggars?” and he spit on him. Now in the old days the samurais were extremely proud. Any insult to their personal dignity meant a fight to the death. So the monk who had formerly been a samurai just walked on and after he’d walked a certain distance, it occurred to him that not only did he not need to kill this guy, he wasn’t even angry.
When people practice noting, they go through the process Shinzen describes and they can lose identity view. But sometimes this happens long after fruition not during fruition. So my advice to everyone is to keep noting, but don't worry about the progress of insight, it isn't necessary to go through those stages and not everyone does. Focus your attention on
observing the activity of your mind not on stages that might or might not occur and might not live up to the hype.
