TWIM to Win, dogpile support

TWIM to Win, dogpile support Dream Walker 4/24/24 2:10 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Olivier S 4/24/24 3:45 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Bahiya Baby 4/24/24 4:44 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Martin 4/24/24 4:48 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Dream Walker 4/27/24 6:28 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Dream Walker 4/27/24 6:48 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Pepe · 4/27/24 11:29 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Martin 4/27/24 1:23 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Olivier S 4/24/24 5:06 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support ‎ ‎Nihila 4/24/24 5:26 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Robert L. 4/24/24 8:46 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Pepe · 4/25/24 8:05 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Robert L. 4/25/24 8:32 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Pepe · 4/25/24 8:53 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Robert L. 4/25/24 9:26 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Pepe · 4/27/24 12:02 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Robert L. 4/25/24 9:47 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Pepe · 4/27/24 12:14 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support shargrol 4/25/24 5:20 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Martin 4/25/24 6:35 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support JohnM 4/25/24 10:20 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Olivier S 4/26/24 7:16 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support J W 4/25/24 6:21 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Matt Jon Rousseau 4/26/24 9:08 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Dream Walker 4/27/24 6:34 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Matt Jon Rousseau 4/27/24 8:43 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Dream Walker 4/27/24 9:26 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Olivier S 4/27/24 1:40 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Bahiya Baby 4/30/24 5:36 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support shargrol 4/30/24 5:43 AM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Bahiya Baby 5/1/24 4:21 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Siavash ' 4/30/24 1:47 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Jim Smith 5/1/24 9:09 PM
RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support Geoff W 5/1/24 10:35 PM
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 2:10 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 2:10 PM

TWIM to Win, dogpile support

Posts: 1746 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
With all the popular recommendations about TWIM- 

site:www.dharmaoverground.org twim

I am curious of who and the veracity of their claims....
shrug...I kinda am ok with the general approach but fail to figure out....much
ALL Y'ALLs who are pimping TWIM, Please come forward and speak out to explain what up with your stuff.
Coolio
​​​​​​​~D
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 3:45 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 3:45 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

Posts: 958 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Daniel told me recently that some guy is apparently interested in funding research on twim retreats and their supposed efficiency, so, we might learn something from that soon! However, here's a very contrarian account.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 4:44 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 4:44 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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I am very unsure of them. I think their practice is a good introduction to meditation, I used it once briefly when I needed to introduce some metta, I have not used any of their approaches or interacted with them at all since. 

I think they make a lot of unhealthy claims about what Arahats are and aren't. I feel their understanding of Jhanas is interesting but in my experience it seems to confuse people more than the POI. I have been unconvinced of a number of TWIM "stream enterers" to be frank about it. 

There are things that I don't like about them but I don't know if I can explain them all... All I'll say is they do not pass the vibe check. My nervous system doesn't fully trust them. 
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 4:48 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 4:48 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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It's an easy technique. Most experienced meditators can probably learn it in a day. Most people who can jhana at will can probably learn it an an hour. So rather than ask people to explain it, I'd suggest that you take an hour or so and learn it. That would be faster and more informative than talking about it. 
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 5:06 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 5:06 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Also, check out the sort of transmission ceremony after Vimalaramsi passed away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=rXqI9sIc2Qk.
‎ ‎Nihila, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 5:26 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 5:26 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Love the talks that Delson Armstrong does.

I incorporated some 6R stuff for a while, I liked it. Especially the resmile part, keeps things light and not so serious.
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 8:46 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/24/24 8:46 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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I read the books and have been utilizing the technique over the last 6 months or so. I found the progression throught the jhanas and brahmaviharas to be accurate to the teachings. I've had several email exchanges with David Johnson, and he was down to earth and very helpful. I've never been to their retreat center, so I can't vouch for that. I agree with Martin, easy to learn, and worth seeing for yourself. 
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 8:05 AM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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IMO, 6Rs is an useful tool off-cushion, and on-cushion too though ñana dependent. The thing is that by creating a habit of always relaxing & releasing you are also creating a habit of subtle avoiding unpleasant stuff. That is, if I want to go deep (or at least solve blockages) I need to plunge into that stuff and experience it, observing what is "inherently" unpleasant and what are beliefs about it unpleasantness.
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 8:32 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 8:32 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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In my experience the relaxation into the experience occurs whether that experience is pleasant or unpleasant. There is no avoidance of experience, there is relaxation into all experience. The clinging to the experience, or aversion to the experience is what is released. The tension associated with the experience is released whether pleasant or unpleasant. There is no avoidance. I can see where it could become an issue though, that would be where some guidance would be helpful.
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 8:53 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 8:53 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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If that were to be the case, why don't they call it "surrender" instead of "relaxation"? 
If they release the clinging to the experience, how can they get the first couple of jhanas?
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 9:26 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 9:26 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Because 6 R's sounds better than 5 R's and an S? The jhana comes from meditation on the loving kindness at first and then moves on through the other brahmaviharas as you progress. The 6 Rs is what you do when you realize that experience has drawn you away from the concentration object.
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 9:47 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 9:47 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Just to be clear. I am not affiliated with TWIM or Dhammasukha. I am not a teacher. My answers are based only on my experience, not on expertise regarding their teachings. If you want to get into a discussion on semantics of surrender vs. relaxation, send an email to one of their teachers. I do not know why they don't call it surrender instead of relaxation, though, they may have their reasons. Whether it is an important distinction? Not in my practice.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 5:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 5:17 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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It will be interesting to see how the TWIM tradition goes. For me, from afar, it rubs me the wrong way. Both Bante Vimalaramsi and Culadasa - may they rest in peace - gave me a similar feeling with their idealized method/system and reports of students being blamed for when the system didn't work as described. Time will tell and it's completely possible that it is helpful/works for some and not for others... and my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

May every practioner have ownership over their own practice and listen to their own conscience.
May every practioner refrain from giving their power away to teachers or institutions.
​​​​​​​May every practioner mature and find more autonomy.
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J W, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 6:21 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 6:21 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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I don't know anything about TWIM or TMI, but I do know about the 1990's video game series TIM (The Incredible Machine) :

Endless fun, great soundtrack, engaging gameplay>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Machine


Sorry to go against shargol's ​​​​​​​wishes that every practioner mature.
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 6:35 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 6:35 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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It can be helpful to separate the Dhamma Sukha tradition and organization from the TWIM technique. Just because someone presents a technique in a package of other things, does not mean that anyone is obliged to adopt the whole package. For example, I think that even the Buddha was wrong about a boatload of stuff, but his teachings are valuable, nonetheless. 

People can be very happy with a self-contained package, which is described by a single person or organization and which is internally consistent. That's basically what a religion is, and religions have been some of the most successful systems of thought ever. I'm totally for them when they work for people. 

But another framework is that of a toolbox. A yogi can pick up and practice various tools (techniques) and see how well they work. Then they can put those down and try others. But the tools remain in the box and can be taken out and used again when they occasion fits. You can do this without much concern for where the tools came from. 
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JohnM, modified 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 10:20 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/25/24 10:17 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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I couldn't agree more with shargrol and Martin. I've had the privilege of working extensively with MCTB, TMI, and TWIM systems (in that order) and meeting their respective developers in person (Daniel, Culadasa) and online (Bhante V and the teachers he trained).

What helped these systems come together for me was having a mentor for several years who was familiar with all three systems. I'd done Mahasi for decades, supercharged by meeting Daniel in 2018, started TMI in 2019 until 2021, and then my mentor switched me over to TWIM. I subsequently worked with Delson and other teachers, and enjoyed significant breakthroughs last year thanks to them.

It was the ability to cultivate and adapt all those skill sets as a progression that made the difference for me. Having also been sucked into what became a personality cult (under the guise of so-called Vajrayana) for two decades before all this, I can attest to the importance of taking charge of my own practice and not blindly following someone else's model of what worked for them.

Daniel really put me on to this when he suggested I practice like I was alone on a deserted island. Having skilled guides who didn't have a vested interest in outcomes was also critical in taking me to the place where the magic could occur. Developing the ability to simultaneously take direction and think for myself set me free. A work in progress but so grateful!
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 7:16 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 7:16 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Nice !
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 9:08 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/26/24 9:08 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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I'm not sure ,hose Delson Armstrong  claims are quite out there. Respectfully I can't buy all those claims he makes. . 
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:28 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:28 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Martin
  1. It's an easy technique.
  2. Most experienced meditators can probably learn it in a day.
  3. Most people who can jhana at will can probably learn it an an hour.
  4. So rather than ask people to explain it, I'd suggest that you take an hour or so and learn it.
  5. That would be faster and more informative than talking about it. 
Ok,
Could you link to something that supports your suppositions?
What are the 6Rs?
I'm not adverse to learning new things, no one yet has explained or linked to "whatever 'IT" is"
Can anyone simply state the general easy technique? I get there is some combined metta mix with concentration and insight from other threads but not here.
Thanks.
~D
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:34 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:34 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Matt Jon Rousseau
  1. I'm not sure ,
  2. hose Delson Armstrong  claims are quite out there.
  3. Respectfully I can't buy all those claims he makes. . 
  1. I am not sure about being sure either...
  2. "Out there" ....out where? Exactly what claims?
  3. I can not buy the lack of claims that are not made. Perhaps you could offer an example?
~D
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:48 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 6:48 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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WHAT ARE THE 6Rs?
  1. The 6Rs are steps
  2. which evolve into one fluid motion
  3. becoming a new wholesome habitual tendency
  4. that relieves any dis-ease in mind and body.
  5. This cycle begins when mindfulness remembers the 6Rs which are:
1.         Recognize
2.         Release
3.         Relax
4.         Re-Smile
5.         Return
6.         Repeat

  1. Steps, ok
  2. all 6 at once....um ok
  3. I like the claim, wholesome sounds wholesome
  4. dis-ease or uneasyness I will guess
  5. Mindfulness is not noticing mindfulness remembering the cycle yet. Not my mindfullness, just it....
I am going to dig in deeper and try to get past the marketing intro.... LINK-
https://www.dhammasukha.org/the-6rs
Worth being curious, always.
​​​​​​​~D
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 8:43 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 8:43 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

Posts: 172 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Dream Walker
Matt Jon Rousseau
  1. I'm not sure ,
  2. hose Delson Armstrong  claims are quite out there.
  3. Respectfully I can't buy all those claims he makes. . 
  1. I am not sure about being sure either...
  2. "Out there" ....out where? Exactly what claims?
  3. I can not buy the lack of claims that are not made. Perhaps you could offer an example?
~D

On YouTube.  He ( Delson Armstrong )claimed many students achieved a complete loss and freedom for the desire of sex after a few days practice.  He thinks he remembers past lives with quite specifitey ,even claiming he hung out with bhante Vilimaransi  in his past lives .. he says he communicated  with entities also. Many of this was on the YouTube channel Guru viking.    To me ,these claims could be confusion . He could be lucid dreaming .   I Don't know what to make out of the sex drive thing
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Dream Walker, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 9:26 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 9:26 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Matt Jon Rousseau
Dream Walker
Matt Jon Rousseau
  1. I'm not sure ,
  2. hose Delson Armstrong  claims are quite out there.
  3. Respectfully I can't buy all those claims he makes. . 
  1. I am not sure about being sure either...
  2. "Out there" ....out where? Exactly what claims?
  3. I can not buy the lack of claims that are not made. Perhaps you could offer an example?
~D

On YouTube.  He ( Delson Armstrong )claimed many students
  1. achieved a complete loss and freedom for the desire of sex after a few days practice.
  2.   He thinks he remembers past lives with quite specifitey ,even claiming he hung out with bhante Vilimaransi  in his past lives ..
  3. he says he communicated  with entities also.
  4. To me ,these claims could be confusion . He could be lucid dreaming .   I Don't know what to make out of the sex drive thing
  1. I don't know if I would call sexlessness an achievement. To each their own.
  2. Cool, whatevers....I can hardly remember this life in detail.
  3. typical to those who delve deep in meditation. Usefulness might be a better measurement.
  4. Ya, could be lots of things. There are lots of claims of many stuff. It really comes down to doing it vs opinions of not doing it.
I tend to have opinions only of what I have experienced, then really don't believe myself to much either. 
Lots of data points.....historically and otherwise, shared experiences, who knows the capitol T truth. 
As to whether Delson personally experienced stuff??? Who knows.....I'm gonna just keep on sitting and not worry to much about it.
~D
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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 11:29 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 11:29 AM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 12:02 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Pepe ·, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 12:14 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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All good! Each to his own
Martin, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 1:23 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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 Martin: "So rather than ask people to explain it, I'd suggest that you take an hour or so and learn it. That would be faster and more informative than talking about it. "
Dream: "Could you link to something that supports your suppositions?"

If I understand you correctly, you are asking for a link to an explanation of why explanations are not the best option here. With some work, we could turn this into a decent Monty Python skit :-)

To answer your question, I don't know of any such link. Even if I did, I wouldn't want to post it because I don't really care about whether or not what I said is supported or, in fact, even right. I look at our conversations here not as debates, but as experience sharing. For me, what other meditators, such as yourself, say about their experiences is really useful. Theoretical arguments drawing on various supports are also useful but not in the same context. I don't want to mix the two up. I also don't want to take a position because, as you know, positions are the seeds of suffering, and I'm just not into suffering. The closest to taking a position that I will go is to tell you what I am thinking right now, with the caveat that my thoughts are temporary, not really satisfactory, and do not come from a self who will be here to talk about them later. 

I don't have TWIM in my standard rotation because I like other concentration practices more. But I often recommend it for people who are looking for an accessible concentration practice because it is more structured and reliable, and easier to get a handle on, than other concentration practices (like Leigh Basington, Beth Upton, and Ajahn Brahm). Also, when I practice it, I really grokked metta. If I want to call up metta now, I use the insight that I gained through TWIM to do so. That's pretty handy. Thanks, Bante V!

Separately, I don't agree with Bhante Vimalaramsi's interpretations of the suttas in this regard. I don't think there is support for the 6Rs in the early texts. Also, I do not find some of Delson Armstrong's stories and reports credible within my own framework of understanding of how the world works, so I don't look to the Dhamma Sukha organization for anything beyond the TWIM technique. 
 
Olivier S, modified 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 1:40 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 4/27/24 1:40 PM

RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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The whole transmission of power based on past life experiences with vimalaramsi struck me as extraordinarily m,ushroomy, tbh, and I enjoy mushrooms sometimes, but in this case, they smell fishy.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 4/30/24 5:36 AM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Lord knows I've done a few fishy mushrooms in my time !! 
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 4/30/24 5:43 AM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Technically, the use of unverifiable claims to legitimize authority is not mushroomy it's culty. 
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Siavash ', modified 1 Month ago at 4/30/24 1:47 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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I wonder what these people would say and do, if they were in a war zone, and they were beaten up, humiliated, their family members were killed and tortured in front of their eyes. Would they still be talking about these freedom from emotions?

It reminds me of Thich Nhat Hanh when he was talking about his anger, sadness, etc.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 4:21 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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Some cults have great dharma. (Some better than others) 
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Jim Smith, modified 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 9:09 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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It's possible to use wholesome states like metta without clinging.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities ...

The Buddha taught his students to use samatha practices to prepare for vipassana. In the anapanasati sutta he teaches producing joy, happiness, and gladdening the mind as preparation before practicing vipassana. 

https://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/7.13-Anapanasati-S-m118-piya.pdf

4 Stages of practice in the Ᾱnâpāna,sati Sutta: A recap
...
The 16 steps of ānâpāna,sati as satipaṭṭhāna
the 12 steps for getting into dhyana (mental absorption)—samatha
1. contemplation of the body [§24]
step 1—knowing a long breath
step 2—knowing a short breath
step 3—experiencing the whole breath (or whole “body”)
step 4—calming the breath (bodily formations)
2. contemplation of feelings: Entry into dhyana [§25]
step 5—experiencing zest [joy]
step 6—experiencing happiness
step 7—experiencing mental formation (zest and happiness)
step 8—calming both mental formations
3. contemplation of the mind [§26]
step 9—experiencing the mind
step 10—gladdening the mind (shining the meditation sign, nimitta)
step 11—concentrating the mind (sustaining the sign)
step 12—freeing the mind
the 4 steps to take after emerging from dhyana—vipassanā
4. contemplation of dharmas [§27]
step 13—contemplating impermanence (anicca)
step 14—contemplating fading away (of lust) (virāga)
step 15—contemplating cessation (of suffering) (nirodha)
step 16—contemplating letting go (of defilements) (paṭinissagga)
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Geoff W, modified 1 Month ago at 5/1/24 10:35 PM
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RE: TWIM to Win, dogpile support

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At the end of the day TWIM is basically a concentration practice using the metta 'feeling' as the object, no? At least that's as far as I interpreted it when I half heartedly practiced it. I'm out of the loop on claims or problems with the org or any of that, but the practice itself seems pretty innocuous.

they have the 6Rs... Tara Brach has Rain... and the green grass grows all around

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