Path vs. fruition

End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

Path vs. fruition

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Mahasi Sayadaw claims that path moments and fruition moments are temporally linked, and so one gets path, and then one gets fruition right after, and so the distinction between them is more-or-less doctrinal, as you don't encounter people walking around with path but without fruition (for any stage of enlightenment.) Also cf. MCTB.

I believe the Visuddhimagga claims the same, but I could be mistaken.

On the other hand, I have read something by Bhante V (which I can't find at the moment) which implies that the two are practically distinct, and that you can encounter a person who has path but not fruition.

I also read an excerpt from Bhante G's "Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English" (which I only have an online preview of at the moment) that explicitly claims that the two are different, and that the path moment is the beginning of the eradication or partial eradication of the fetters (specific to the stage of enlightenment) that the fruition moment severs. Thus, a person may e.g. have entered the path to stream entry, beginning to eliminate the first three fetters, but the process is only completed at the fruition of stream entry. And then, presumably, a person can enter the path to sakadagami, beginning to eliminate the next two fetters, which will only count as partially severed at the fruition of sakadagami.

The suttas describe eight types of noble persons, viz a person on the path to, and having attained the fruit of, each stage of enlightenment, but I am not aware that a clear explanation of the meaning of that is given, and so in principle it does not decide between either view.

Does anyone have a reference to an elaboration of the perspective I have just attributed to Bhante V / Bhante G? Do any other authors support that perspective besides those two?

EDIT: For clarity, I am interested in references, rather than discussion.
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Eric Bause, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 186 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Hi EiS,

I cannot remember ever coming across anything that splits Path immediatley being followed by Fruition into two more or less distinct things separated by some interval in time. I did read that Bhante V book recently, but pretty much put it aside without giving it much consideration.

This brief four-page PDF, which includes references to various suttas, the Visuddhimagga and the writings of the Ven. Ledi Sayadaw, indicates that Path is always followed by Fruition. I find it logical and compelling, and succint to boot; Its last sentence reads:

An Introductory Course on Early Buddhism by Bro. Chan Khoon San:
So it is not possible for one to attain the Path (Magga) and not experience the Fruition (Phala) immediately. The Supramundane Dhamma is akaliko ─ immediately effective.


I hope this is of use.

Eric
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Here's the Bhante V reference I had in mind.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ven_Vimalaramsi_THE_GREAT_DISCOURSE_ON_ORIGINATION.htm

BV: Okay. Tonight you get something a little bit different. This is from the Digha Nikaya, Sutta number fifteen, The Great Discourse on Origination.

DN: 1. `THUS HAVE I HEARD. Once the Lord was staying among the Kurus. There is a market town there called Kammadhamma. And the Venerable Ananda came to the Lord, saluted him, sat down to one side, and said: 'It is wonderful, Lord, it is marvellous how profound this dependent origination is, and how profound it appears! And yet it appears to me as clear as clear!'

BV: Now what happened was that Ananda was a sotapanna. But he hadn't had the fruition of sotapanna. When fruition occurs, you see dependent origination very, very, clearly, and that's what just happened to him. So, that's why he came to the Buddha and he was talking like this.
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Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
A link to a conversation with Culadasa which may relate.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2980
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Daniel M. Ingram, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 3166 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Just a brief bit of reality testing:

I personally don't know anyone who has had Path but not Fruition, though I know people who can't repeat it after they got Fruition.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
My guess is that writers who entertain the possibility of path without fruition may have a different idea of what path is than writers who don't. (Bhante V, for example.)
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Eric Bause, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 186 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
End in Sight:
My guess is that writers who entertain the possibility of path without fruition may have a different idea of what path is than writers who don't. (Bhante V, for example.)


EiS, I think you've hit the nail on the head with this...I say this with confidence that you and I both attribute the same meaning to "nail".
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James Yen, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 270 Join Date: 9/6/09 Recent Posts
Hi End In Sight,

Sure, I have references aplenty.

Here the 8 individuals in the Ariyan Sangha are graded by strength of their Indriya:

Monks, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties. One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is practising for the realisation of the fruit of arahantship; if still weaker, one is a non-returner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realisation of the fruit of non-returning; if still weaker, one is a once-returner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realisation of the fruit of once-returning; if still weaker, one is a stream-enterer; if still weaker, one is practising for the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry.


http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=121689574513398

Here, gifts are being spoken of as being given to those on the way to witnessing Stream-Entry:

‘An offering to one on the way to witnessing the fruit of stream-entry can be expected to repay incalculably; what could I say of an offering to a stream-enterer?’


http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/swiftpair.pdf

Here is Piya Tan's exposition of the concept, he claims that one enters the path to stream entry on achievement of the fourth purification (2nd Nana), one becomes a Cula Sotapanna a la Visuddhimagga.

The one's on the way to achieving Stream Entry (said to be incapable of dying without attaining it) are referred to as Dhamma-Followers or Faith-Followers here:

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/16.7-Anicca-Cakkhu-S-s25.1-piya.pdf

If you want to google more you can try these terms:

Truth Follower, Dhammanusari, Dhammanusarin, Faith-Follower, Dhamma-Follower, Conviction-Follower, follower through faith, wisdom follower (idk lawl), saddhanusari

For suttic references try:

The Alagaddupama Sutta:

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have abandoned the three fetters, with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are all once-returners who, on returning only one more time to this world, will make an ending to stress. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have abandoned the three fetters, are all stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers and conviction-followers [18] are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html

and the Kitagiri Sutta.

Finally, all of them seem to be graded by Indriya:

“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. These are the five faculties. One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is a non-returner; if still weaker, a once-returner; if still weaker, a stream-enterer; if still weaker, a Dhamma-follower; if still weaker, a faith-follower.”


http://www.thedhamma.com/definition.htm

Last but not least, if you would like some suttic concepts of the dark night, try googling: dukkha-patipada.

Be well.
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jenny v birkett, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Path vs. fruition

Posts: 9 Join Date: 3/2/10 Recent Posts
Keminda Thera writes about how path and fruition are distinct in detail. See below link to download a pdf of his book Path, Fruit and Nibbhana.

http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/path-fruit-and-nibbana/