Hello All,

1st post on DhO. I think I'm in 3 characteristics territory and looking for a little help/guidance. I finished a 10-day Goenka retreat a week ago and starting about day 5 I've been "battling" some very intense pain in my right neck, shoulder/scapula (trap, rhomboids, levator scapulae), upper arm, which seems like classic 3 characteristics as described in MCTB. I've had pain in this quadrant of my body for over 15 years now and it feels as though my body is working through the energy/tension that is associated with this discomfort. I mentioned this to the Assistant Teacher on the retreat and he recommended not reading too much into it, reminding me they are only just sensations, and to continue past these areas as best I could utilizing the technique (body sensations head-to-toe). This is fine, and probably the perfect recommendation big picture-wise, but the sensations can be so intense that I'm constantly brought back to them and I try to watch with as much equanimity/acceptance/surrender as possible. Almost all of my sits now are characterized by my neck starting to twist, twitch, stretch, bend, etc. as the sensations move around and a few times I've had sensations that have moved in a way that seem to indicate some sort of final release but this has not happened (there is definitely a lot of fear present [increased heart beat, shortened breath] when this starts happening which makes it difficult to just sit as this "final crescendo" starts materializing). I realize that there is a lot of craving for some sort of finality to this pain that I've had for so many years and aversion to the discomfort. I'm trying my best to maintain equanimity, just watch, and let things unfold but am having trouble pushing through to the other side. Any suggestions, tips, insight, encouragement, etc. that anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

thanks
-kyle

Hey Kyle,

I'm not an expert, so take it all with a grain of salt. Awesome that you're posting here. I just recently joined too.

I have no idea what territory you're in, but I don't know how much it really matters anyway.

It seems like this stuff is a little bit unclear in the Goenka tradition (from my experience, and where I did most of my sits so far). But, what I recall Goenka says is that whatever arises in the mind, you just notice it equanimously, and then come back to the sensations on the body. So, when craving arises, just notice: "this is craving" then back to sensations on the body. When frustration or troubles or pain or aversion arises, just notice: "this is frustration" or "this is pain." If it arises again, you notice it again. It seems to me that this is very similar to "noting" practice, but Goenka never calls it "noting" because he doesn't want you to actually say the words in your head. All these things in the mind also arise and pass on their own.

What helps me is questioning the belief that there is an "other side" to push through too? Is there an "other side"? Or is it all just an "unfolding now"? The belief that there is an "other side" may be what keeps you from seeing craving as just craving and aversion as just aversion. Or perhaps the aversion and craving are what keep you in the belief that there's an "other side." Or perhaps the craving and aversion ARE the illusion of an other side.

Anyway, it sounds to me like you're on the right track. "Patiently and persistently, patiently and persistently..." Practice really helps. Keep practicing.

Good luck. Maybe someone else with some more experience might jump in too.

- Daniel

kyle,

there's no 'final resolution' that has to happen to the pain encountered on the path, though it frequently tapers off, or even drops away, often unexpectedly. in the meantime, it is natural to want pain to go away, and i echo daniel johnson's advice above about noticing the aversion to it or the craving for its resolution as a part of insight practice. keep working at it diligently, with a kind of zestful ease, and let us know what happens next.

tarin

While seemingly contradictory advice, I say screw equanimity at this point.

The There Characteristics stage responds well to speed and precision, and speed and precision regarding anything, including aversion and wanting pain to go away.

Of course you want it to go away. That's normal. See that process as it is, with all the sensations, rapidly, clearly, quickly, and look for anything that smacks of even a hint of a vibration, flicker, pause, or any discontinuities anywhere in any object: thought, physical, anything. Noting can really help reality begin to crack, and that's what you need.

Helpful?

Daniel

Thanks for the suggestion Daniel. Would you mind giving me a little guidance as far as a noting practice I can implement? I've received instructions from Shinzen Young on noting TOUCH every 5 seconds when doing body sensation practice, although this is not what I've been doing. If I'm going to implement noting practice (rather than the Goenka-style body-scan/physical sensations I've been doing) with speed and precision as you suggest, should I be noting more things than just TOUCH and more often than every 5 seconds? If so, what else should I be noting and how quickly? My guess as to your response, would be everything and as quickly as possible, but I just want to make sure that is correct and see if you have any other recommendations. Also, is it helpful/ok to just keep my attention in one place in the body rather than scan up and down? i.e. if there is a bunch of stuff going on in my upper right quadrant can i just stay there and note quickly and precisely? Thanks.

-kyle

Any object that you can stay with is good: pain, pleasure, thoughts, breath, touching, your nose, whatever. All objects reveal the truth of things, so go with whatever is easy and work on the subtle stuff as you get better.

Notes I have used to good effect:
rising
falling
thinking
wandering
seeing
hearing
feeling
touching
pain
bliss
fear
doubt
tired

there are many others, but that's the major ones I used most of the time. When things get faster, I just use "dat", and when things get even faster, I just use the mind tap itself as the note, if that makes sense, like the hit or contact between attention and object.

Note fast: 1-10 per second is a good start. Notice vibrations any way you can, with any object that you can, with any technique, focus or whatever. Stretch the limits of your perception and your ability to perceive clearly to see sensations arise and vanish. That is key. Consistency, particularly at the end and beginning of the breath, as well as on transitions such as staring and ending a sit, walking, going through doors, eating, brushing your teeth, getting up, going to bed, etc. all help. More momentum helps.

When on retreat, practicing as if every single second that gets by without at least noticing something come and go is a tragedy and a waste of a great opportunity will get you far. Read Tarin's Reformed Slacker's Guide to Stream Entry (ask him for the link): it is good, solid, hard-won advice.

I don't think it matters so much where you put your attention as what you do with it: penetrate the Three Characteristics of something, anything, and eventually everything at the same time: that's the way the game is played.

Hello everyone,
it's my first post here on The Dharma Overground. I just wanted to share my experience and say thanks to Daniel and the others for the advice on this topic.

I've been sitting for about 3+ hours a day since december 30th, as I'm going on another 10-day Goenka retreat next wednesday (been meditating for 2h/day since july '09 when did my first 10 day retreat). And for a cuple of weeks 3C has hitting me pretty damm hard and I was loosing my faith already. Besides practically everything describe in MCTB (pain in the neck, back, jaws, feeling feverish, dark emotions, despair, etc.) I was also experiencing loss of apetite, nausea, some minor diahreia, and the feeling that I would be stuck in the stage forever: as my mind was slow and really confused. After franticly reading MCTB and this topic, I decided to sit no matter how painful, frustrating, and confused I was; and today, after sitting with the mess that was my body and mind for 6 hours I finally hit early A&P. I know it's no big deal, and that I may fall back, but it was a huge relieve anyway. I may even get stuck in 3C for a while longer in retreat, but at least I know that it is possible to break thought! I intend to practice as suggested ''every single second that gets by without at least noticing something come and go is a tragedy and a waste of a great opportunity''; let's see what happens!


I must say, however, that if 3C was like this, I'm frightend alredy by the dark night.

Dear Kyle,
regarding this pain you described, I wonder if the chapter about 'difficult problems and insistent visitors' on Jack Kornfield's A Path with Heart could be helpful. Remember that these things may take time, effort, aceptance and surrender. I wish you good luck!


--

By the way, after my last post I went to sleep, only to wake after 3 hours with my body filled with energy and restlessness. After lying awake for about 3 hours trying to breath calmly and profoundly I gave up trying to sleep and manage to do so only a cuple of hours later (at 6 a.m.). During this time I experienced heavy floating of bodily temperature and a tight fiery pain in the crown chakra. I can imagine that this is a expectable normal (?) early kundalini event, but it was also very unsettling. Any tips on how to handle these sort of phenomena, especially on retreat? (On Jack Kornfield's book he mentions some skilful ways to do so, but none of them is possible during retreat (like jogging, sexual orgasms, heavy food, and so on...)

As to handling things: don't freak out no matter what. Just realize it is just more stuff. Tell your teachers about it if you think they are advanced, stable, sane, accomplished, open, helpful people. Otherwise, just notice the sensations that make it up and realize that it will pass and some other weird ass thing might or might not show up next. Keep practicing no matter what, fine tuning your factors such as equanimity, energy, concentration, investigation, tranquility, etc. they swing out of balance in one way or another, which is normal.

The first few times we go through strange things, they seem like a big deal. After thousands of them, they are just more noise most of the time.

Helpful?

Daniel