When Molly Met Lucy

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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 6:23 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/1/12 6:01 PM

When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts

DISCLAIMER

As in my previous thread, "LSD & PCE: An Empirical Experiment", this post concerns the use of drugs as tools for further exploring consciousness. I do not recommend this path to anyone and I have no interest in glorifying the use of potentially dangerous substances, what I present here are notes which were made with the intent of trying to record as much of the phenomenological experience as possible. I do not speak for the DhO, or any of it's users, moderators, admins or the owner and the content of this post are entirely my own opinion; don't fuck with drugs unless you know exactly what you're doing, seriously, it's a high-intensity and unpredictable way to go but, questions of "good" or "bad" aside, is as valid a source of insight as any other experience. Be careful, that's all I can say. This is another long post, so if you're not into this sort of take on things then please don't waste your time. Thanks for reading.



Were it not for the years of meditation and investigating the workings of my mind, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone completely insane last night. I shit you not, never, ever have I experienced anything of this intensity; a large part of what happened literally defies explanation but I'll endeavour to present my findings as clearly as possible, and in the context of seeking the end of suffering. While obviously not what you could call a Buddhist practice, I like to think of these experiments as being aligned with "Crazy Wisdom" since my sole intent is to investigate my sensate experience and see its emptiness, luminosity and transience directly. I'll use the same sort of format as I did in my other thread, quotation of the unedited notes and then a comment on what, to me, was learned or what the general 'tone' of things were at that point. And off we go...

2207 – Cube taken orally.

2215 - Noticing mild perceptual fluctuations already but possibly down to expectation (and/or placebo effect), I’ve been planning this for the last few days and have aimed at recognizing the clear light with the intent of letting go of being. Everything is possible, nothing is impossible, the mind is a name for this flow.

These were just preliminary notes, a sort of statement of intent I jotted down as I paid attention to any apparent changes in the experience. The way in which sensing, whether with the eyes, ears or other 'door', occurred remained exactly the same as it had for the last few days, but this is complicated somewhat by a complete inability to relate the experience after a point.

2236 – slight visual contrast between whites and blacks in text on the page, increased noticing of “floaters” but they’re not being given any attention. Noticing a very subtle tension involved in trying to control the process of typing. Looking at it though, there is just fingers pressing on the keys, exquisitely soft skin against firm, smooth plastic keys, slight hesitation and trying to make sure i’m spelling correctly and expressing things clearly as possible. Sluggishness physically, but mentally bright if undefined in terms of the “where” of mentation.

That last line about "the "where" of mentation" relates to investigating any sense of location, finding the 'edges' of thoughts then seeing how the distinction was being made between the object and the clean, sensate experience of it. Looking closely at this happening, it was clear that there was no such thing as a sensation arising from anywhere, or returning to anywhere; I was still clear and contented at this point, the acid hadn't really started working yet but these small perceptual fluctuations were noted for the sake of recording as much as possible.

2242 – realizing that much of the previous commentary is based on the effects of a potent cannabis blend, as well as functioning in (something resembling) a PCE without the “wow”. Thinking about this just led to a pain in the heart area, like a pulling inwards. Noticing how the mind tries to label that as pain and as unpleasant, but it just happens and it’s gone. Does it point to a health problem? I am not concerned. I am willing to die for this and only complete submission to the experience, a blissful relaxing into what is, will wash “me” away with the continuum

When I say "(something resembling) a PCE...", I don't know how else to describe things right now, it was just a convenient label to describe the clarity and happiness evident over the last few days. There was no affective element to what I described above, I was talking about how I could observe the way that the mind tried to label that pain as unpleasant but didn't 'terminate' in the same way.

The rather dramatic sounding line at the end was an acknowledgement that there is only this moment of being alive, I was stating my intent to let go of everything that remained and if that entailed death, so be it. Sounds OTT, perhaps, but I meant it sincerely.

2254 – with the ending of a subject to the objects of “reality”, i.e. 4th path (mctb model), it may be that what’s holding “me” back is that i’m not focusing on investigating “object”. Emptiness of the object needs to be seen clearly.

Quick idea I thought I'd note.

2304 – sound is crisp and clear, just hearing. Seeing happens at the same time, as do all the other senses, but each could be said to be like a stream which comes from and leads back to the ocean of pure consciousness. They can be called “streams” but they are never experienced apart from the “ocean”, mind is all that seems to keep the separate by it’s own inherent process of distinction.

The acid still wasn't making any noticeable difference to how things were, this just sounded like a nice way to phrase what was happening.

2308 – being repeatedly told i was selfish and manipulative, i became so, but this also led to the development of selflessness and sincerity as antidotes to those behaviours. I didn’t realize that until just now

Insight into a personal issue which was resolved in that moment.

2314 – definite increase in tactile sensitivity, the previously smooth feeling monitor now seems to have a texture of it’s own, a roughness from the dirt which hasn’t been cleaned away properly. Having cleaned the screen with cleaning stuff, there is a rainbow like covering of individual pearls of liquid. They clearly show how the seemingly solid background colour of the site i’m currently viewing is actually made up of the entire spectrum being refracted to conform to this one idea of a “colour”.

Seeing how solid colours are made up of the same spectrum, only seen with the eye and nowhere else.

2341 – half tab “pink pacha” (known to be 100% MDMA)

2351 – increase in ‘spaciousness’ of the visual field, clarity, size seems affected, the keys seem smaller than earlier. Marked clarity. Memory seems slightly affected, but not overly so. Control is dissolving entirely.

I misjudged my timings...thinking that the LSD wasn't very strong I decided to take just over half of the pill. How very wrong I was... From here, the notes become increasingly confused but I'll present them as I wrote them, bearing in mind that I'm not posting this as a "trip report" or anything about glorifying recreational drug use.

Its just a matter of being interested, attentive, present, mindful of things.

The answer really is only here, in the brain of this body, in the neural connections which were laid out before consciousness even arose. I’m looking to an “outside” when both that and an “inside” are only distinctions of one taste, the philosophers stone is truly in the “mind”.


Having just gone outside with the dog, a more pronounced visual distortion is present but also includes any sense of “me” as existing as those fluctuations in perception . The sensuousness of everything is quite simply exquisite. I looked at the branches on the trees and saw them expand like drops of ink being dropped into the waters of the clear light of awareness, colours spreading outwards from a central point, fractal in nature. This “inkblot” effect then spread out to the sky itself, sky and cloud roll into one. This all sounds really out there and poetic but i’m still trying...the point is that i’m still trying when it should be let go of.


0018 – peak trip, i think. Very blissful, very very sensuous with the added rolling, add to that the green, coffee and we’re smiling inanely. Trying to keep quiet rather than talking too much, noticing the initial bruxism of the pills but nothing major.


0020 – remembering to write about how light is refracted on everything, the rainbow qualities, the spectrum of colours, this could be a metaphor for the range of submodalities in each sense, the rainbow-like spectrum of possible sensation within sensation.


The scent of this bud of grass is exquisite, heavenly perfection in an instant of pure apperception
I mean to take as many notes as i can and take advantage of the selfless nature of how mdma makes me want to write more information down, it’s almost like, (but remembering it’s an almost), the addition of another stimulant makes it more fun to try to capture as much of the increased clarity in sensing as possible. A flood of ideas trying to be formulated into little units of sense. Confused trains of thought. Random snatches of coherence.
No need to conceptualize, just recognize. The beauty of words is apparent. The reflection of light from the smouldering joint on the backs of the fingers is splendid. No moment to cling to. No time. Just.


Turning attention back to the body, sense of solidifying or at least cohering of aggregates, the easiest way to describe it without thinking too much about it deliberately. None of this comes from anywhere, nothing goes anywhere. I just adore language and writing this stuff down. A burst of bliss in the solar plexus, knowing how incoherent and disjointed these writings will seem, but recognizing that even once the drug has ceased to alter the chemistry of the brain, the recognition itself of this clarity, the light itself, lux in extension. Ah, splitting sentence to note that this cognition of what “light in extension” also refers to, LUX or LVX, the Divine Light. Same thing, different metaphor for this underlying experience; i wanted to say “structure” but the recognition of that mental process releases it and “structure” is known as being only a thought.


Note: this all sounds very, very jumbled up and stream-of-consciousness, which is what it is, but the disjointed nature of the writing is down to the continual shift in attention from one thing to the next. Real time trip reporting, from a 'candyflipping' quarter of the way to infinity.


Noticing how this stream of experiencing cannot be represented accurately at all, there’s too much happening for this body to be able to report it accurately and the limitations of words, combined with my continued emphasis on trying to be clear about this stuff, makes it difficult to really “grasp” anything as an object. Even thought drifts away, i’m just trying, trying to write down whatever comes to mind in whatever order it decides to appear. Compassion, care, love, empathy, different ways of describing a general pattern of sensation with slight variation? I could say “i am that” but it would be false.


Trying to ascertain, in a moment of clarity, what is the difference between “normal” and this clarity right here, actuality. Only after the sense data passes through the “sense door” to be “perceived”, i.e. decoded and interpreted by the brain and nervous system, does anything in the experience of it change. There is an acuity of the senses, certainly, along with a sense of mental “refinement” at the same time, but the actual sensate experience isn’t any different.

Ideas and thoughts are fractal. If i try to reflect on any of them or hold onto them, they vanish to be replaced seamlessly by another.


Recognizing the clear light, it is present in seeing. It is seeing itself. In hearing, it is the sound itself, formless and without concept. Unless I continually recognize the clear light (it’s current 0101) I drift off into heavy, unsatisfying feelings which seem to just drop away, literally, from the body. This clarity and it’s continual noticing, which is effortless, could be described as being eternal; it’s as though mental processes are being held under some sort of lens of awareness or attention. Pulled off in directions like streaks of light.


Nervous system as receiver for an infinitude of chaotic signals, prismatic and disjointed, interdependent and immediate. No way of coordinating this entire experience and expressing it other than if i could give you a 100% sensate snapshop, a formation of my experience on a frame by frame basis. I continue to see, hear, feel, smell and taste in the same way, more clearly if attention is directed to it, but the sensate experience remains identical. Any perceptual distortions occur after the point of sense contact.


Complete discontinuity in any sense of time, no moment-to-moment basis for thought, but i’m still trying to be clear in these instants where i can communicate it.


0110 approx. 2nd half of pill – seriously, seriously gone now.

Blissful though, it’s exquisite. These notes will seem like nonsense in the morning, but i care not. This is a record and nothing more. Notes.


What remains unchanged here? I can’t express it well as i would like, but even though i’m struggling to write this down and form strings of words. That point is immediately seen to be illusory too, there is nothing unchanging, awareness is all there is. I literally can’t get the words to come together here and i’m grinning to myself.


Its noticing that any attempt to convey this inevitably fails since words are static, experience dynamic. What the fuck is it that continually experiences?! Thought after thought, after thought, no single being there to find. I don’t have the language abilities yet to be able to convey this experience accurately. Each sensation is all that there is in that moment, a rational mind cannot understand this flow of information. Trying to present a sensate experience is really difficult. Whatever it is that experiences all of this as awareness, it is not a single, fixed entity called “me”


Kaleidoscope,
Single word notes or simple phrases to describe this
Simultaneous,
Possible nightmare, possible dreamland, both only in the mind

This is not enlightenment, but it peels back the skin
Reveals the dance of sensation, simultaneously perceived,
Too disorientating to be of use if you were to live this way all the time,

0211 – no point in trying to communicate the last hour or so of experience, leaving fingers to type the words leads to nothing sensible or coherent,

There is still hearing and seeing as normal, the senses continue to do their thing. Frames
Frames.
Unable to write this now.
Have i been looking for meaning still? Record the thought of that although it won’t make sense tomorrow. I have never been so utterly tripping hard in my entire life, this is just impossible to describe.0218. still hitting hard
0226 – seems more introspective
Still just fleeting snaps
Broken up poetry
No words at all describe this. Literally
Chaos. Completely no joining up of anything in any way, all gone.
Hoping that these fragments of words will at least indicate some of the utter hilariousness, which is also quite terrifying at the same time, of this complete lack of continuity.
Using this sentence as an anchor point to return to but experience is just so seamless that it’s impossible to describe.
“I” literally have no point of reference,
These seem like little mental loops of anxiety if you get caught up in them.
Notice it. Let it happen. It’s fine.
0344 – madness before this note.

Between 0211 and around 0500, I literally am unable to communicate what happened. All I can say is that the senses continued to operate cleanly, as they are and without any distortion but I was forced to confront some serious psychological stuff which hadn't been dealt with. It was exciting, terrifying, sublime and completely indescribable but revealed a lot of deep insights which I'm still trying to integrate, however today, and obviously with the after-effects of a combination like LSD and MDMA being taken into consideration, I have remained in the most stable, direct and clean PCE I've experienced since that five day thing last year. We'll see how things play out in the next few days, there's the typical 'comedown' from MDMA which usually comes about 48 hours after so it'll be interesting to see how that works.

Hopefully the completely disjointed and chaotic nature of these notes will indicate that this experience is not for everyone, and a person less experienced with their own mind could very easily end up lost in there. I am deadly serious when I say that this should not be attempted without major study into the chemicals involved, and a shitload of hardcore meditation practice; it was unstable to the point of near-psychosis at times and I do not recommend it, although it was an educational experience for me and I will comment further over the coming days.

EDIT: In light of recent comments by another DhO user, I feel I should clarify my use of the words "psychosis" and "near-psychosis". Using this wikipedia article as the basis for this clarification, the specific psychosis-like conditions encountered related to the definition of "thought disorder" given here:

Thought disorder describes an underlying disturbance to conscious thought and is classified largely by its effects on speech and writing. Affected persons show loosening of associations, that is, a disconnection and disorganization of the semantic content of speech and writing. In the severe form speech becomes incomprehensible and it is known as "word-salad".


This, to me, pretty much hits the nail on the head as a way of describing how my writing became less structured, yet did not descend into "word-salad" since even the faux-poetic turns of phrase still make sense and convey the point I was trying to make at the time. Perhaps using the word "psychosis" could be considered a tad over-dramatic, but I chose the word to convey how serious I am about the potential risks involved in these sorts of experiments.

Quickly examining the other possible signs and symptoms of psychosis, just so as to be clear and avoid any suggestions of mental illness being precipitated by this experience: I did not experience any hallucinations per se, perceptual distortions were observed when looking at the clouds and leaves on a tree, but at no point were they mistaken for "reality"'; at no point did I become delusional, I was fully aware that this entire experience was being brought about by the ingestion of a drug; at no point did catatonia occur, I remained awake and endeavoured to communicate my experience as clearly as possible.

I'd also like to add that I posted this report the following day and purposely didn't comment too much on it, although I will be editing and updating the comments in the coming days, as well as posting some notes written down the following day with a much stronger emphasis on this within a meditative context. Please do not construe my reports of this sort of experiment as either an encouragement, or a glorification of the use of drugs; what I choose to do is my responsibility, I post these notes as I know that there are people who are interested in this particular way of gaining insight, and in the general spirit of "taking one for the team", so to speak.
End in Sight, modified 10 Years ago at 7/1/12 7:36 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/1/12 7:36 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
What would you say the practical benefits of this sort of chemical experimentation are, as you've experienced them (both in this account as well as the previous one you posted)?
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 7/2/12 4:21 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/2/12 4:21 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
What would you say the practical benefits of this sort of chemical experimentation are, as you've experienced them (both in this account as well as the previous one you posted)?

The main practical benefit for me is the ability to experience the mind behaving in a completely different way; I know that it's possible to do this through various non-chemical methods but I've always had a fascination with this particular area. These sorts of experiments have also provided some deep and profound insights into the nature of experience, they've made metaphors crystal clear experientially, like understanding what the "clear light of awareness" actually is and how I've had access to "rigpa" for quite some time now, or how the same aspect of experience is described in other traditions.

I suspect that consciousness is just a chemical process happening in the brain [1] and that this process can be affected in various ways, which can lead to an entirely different experience of "reality" and even permanent change in the way the brain functions. It's those "various ways" which are of most interest to me, and the only way I can ever really understand them is to do it myself, hence my freestyle approach to practice and interest in models of experience.

[1] I don't know anywhere near enough about the science involved in this, even whether we're talking bio-chemical or electro-chemical, it's just a theory based on things I've experienced over the years.
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Richard Zen, modified 10 Years ago at 7/2/12 10:18 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/2/12 10:18 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1656 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
2308 – being repeatedly told i was selfish and manipulative, i became so, but this also led to the development of selflessness and sincerity as antidotes to those behaviours. I didn’t realize that until just now

Insight into a personal issue which was resolved in that moment.


I love it when that happens. Some yucky feeling of a dislike of how things are turns quickly into acceptance and resolution.
This Good Self, modified 10 Years ago at 7/3/12 11:39 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/3/12 11:39 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Tommy, for your next acid trip, how about some lotto numbers or precognition? (serious question).
Joshua Seren, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:14 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:14 AM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 2 Join Date: 7/4/12 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
it was unstable to the point of psychosis at times and I do not recommend it.


Hi Tommy,

No disrespect meant, but could it be that another way of looking at this is that you are using a spiritual / exploration type narrative to justify this kind of recreational drug abuse (mixing LSD, weed and Extasy)?

Could it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?
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Thom W, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:03 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:03 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 63 Join Date: 12/31/10 Recent Posts
Joshua Seren:
Tommy M:
it was unstable to the point of psychosis at times and I do not recommend it.


Hi Tommy,

No disrespect meant, but could it be that another way of looking at this is that you are using a spiritual / exploration type narrative to justify this kind of recreational drug abuse (mixing LSD, weed and Extasy)?

Could it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?


What do you mean by abuse? How are you using the word abuse here? In what ways do you judge this exploration to be abusive?

Thom
Joshua Seren, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:16 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:11 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 2 Join Date: 7/4/12 Recent Posts
Thom W:

What do you mean by abuse? How are you using the word abuse here? In what ways do you judge this exploration to be abusive?

Thom


Well, the definition of 'drug abuse' is values-dependent, but here's the medical definition I got off Wikipedia:
Wikipedia:
Substance dependence: When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. These, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders…


in this specific instance I am using this term to describe mixing three very potent drugs together, which can, and did, result in 'near-psychosis'.
Obviously, this is just my opinion which you are free to disagree with.
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Delicate Monster, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:30 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:30 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 21 Join Date: 3/13/12 Recent Posts
Tommy candy flipped and lost his mind. Now he's got to find it... LOL emoticon

I took me two years after some similar type experiences to make sense of the world again. Several of my good friends have completely gone crazy permanently from over zealous psychedelic usage. Be careful man emoticon
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Delicate Monster, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:41 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:41 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 21 Join Date: 3/13/12 Recent Posts
Have you ever done Ayahuasca?

If you haven't you should give it a try.
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Delicate Monster, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:02 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:02 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 21 Join Date: 3/13/12 Recent Posts
Joshua Seren:
could it be that another way of looking at this is that you are using a spiritual / exploration type narrative to justify this kind of recreational drug abuse (mixing LSD, weed and Extasy)?

Could it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?


Na
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:54 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:54 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
No disrespect meant, but could it be that another way of looking at this is that you are using a spiritual / exploration type narrative to justify this kind of recreational drug abuse

The answer to that is a categorical "no", I can see why you might get that impression but I can assure you that it's not the case. I have no interest in justifying the ways in which I choose to investigate my experience, these experiments are few and far between and, on the two occasions I've actually posted any notes or in the handful of times I've publicly discussed such matters, I always, always make it clear that this is nothing to do with recreational drug usage.

I find the use of the word "abuse" questionable though, at no point were any of these substances "abused".

Could it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?

Again, the answer is "no". There is nothing which "drives" me to do this, and I wasn't trying to "recreate" anything.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, none of these posts have anything to do with the recreational use of psychedelics or any other compounds.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:59 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:03 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
in this specific instance I am using this term to describe mixing three very potent drugs together, which can, and did, result in 'near-psychosis'.
Obviously, this is just my opinion which you are free to disagree with.

Perhaps you're getting a little hung-up on this "near psychosis" quote, I used the phrase in it's most basic and straightforward way: Implying the possibility of entirely losing contact with "reality"...however, I could quite easily apply the phrase "near psychosis" to some of the states I've experienced while going through Re-Observation, or even during a PCE. A lot of your criticisms are based on the way in which you're reading the words I've written, and with very little knowledge of how my practices have developed over the last decade or so.

Edited to add: Having just gone and looked up a more precise definition of what "psychosis" entails, I see no inaccuracy in my use of the word; what might be useful would be for me to qualify the exact sense in which the word was used and which aspects of the clinical descriptions of "psychosis", nigh- or otherwise, I was referring to. I'll edit the original post and provide some more information so as to ensure as much clarity as possible, and also to emphasize the fact that I didn't enter into full-blown psychosis, but did experience certain experiential changes which could be described as being on the spectrum of clinical psychosis.
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Tommy M, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:17 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:17 PM

RE: When Molly Met Lucy

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Tommy candy flipped and lost his mind. Now he's got to find it... LOL

To be honest, I was completely back to 'normal' by the following day and found it to be a thoroughly refreshing experience! emoticon

I took me two years after some similar type experiences to make sense of the world again. Several of my good friends have completely gone crazy permanently from over zealous psychedelic usage. Be careful man

I've always tried to be as careful as possible with psychedelics, the dosage is controlled as much as possible and I always ensure that the conditions, the whole set and setting, are as pleasant as possible before even considering taking anything. I know this report is a bit more chaotic than the other one I posted, but this was something completely new to me and, looking back over the notes, I'm questioning whether or not there's a lot of practical value in them.

And thanks for your input : )

Have you ever done Ayahuasca?

If you haven't you should give it a try.

I haven't actually, although I had extracts of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT a couple of years ago which were quite interesting. I'd like to try it, but it's prohibitively expensive to travel over and do it in a proper shamanic context.