When Molly Met Lucy - Discussion
When Molly Met Lucy
Tommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 6:23 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/1/12 6:01 PM
When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent PostsDISCLAIMER
As in my previous thread, "LSD & PCE: An Empirical Experiment", this post concerns the use of drugs as tools for further exploring consciousness. I do not recommend this path to anyone and I have no interest in glorifying the use of potentially dangerous substances, what I present here are notes which were made with the intent of trying to record as much of the phenomenological experience as possible. I do not speak for the DhO, or any of it's users, moderators, admins or the owner and the content of this post are entirely my own opinion; don't fuck with drugs unless you know exactly what you're doing, seriously, it's a high-intensity and unpredictable way to go but, questions of "good" or "bad" aside, is as valid a source of insight as any other experience. Be careful, that's all I can say. This is another long post, so if you're not into this sort of take on things then please don't waste your time. Thanks for reading.
Were it not for the years of meditation and investigating the workings of my mind, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone completely insane last night. I shit you not, never, ever have I experienced anything of this intensity; a large part of what happened literally defies explanation but I'll endeavour to present my findings as clearly as possible, and in the context of seeking the end of suffering. While obviously not what you could call a Buddhist practice, I like to think of these experiments as being aligned with "Crazy Wisdom" since my sole intent is to investigate my sensate experience and see its emptiness, luminosity and transience directly. I'll use the same sort of format as I did in my other thread, quotation of the unedited notes and then a comment on what, to me, was learned or what the general 'tone' of things were at that point. And off we go...
2215 - Noticing mild perceptual fluctuations already but possibly down to expectation (and/or placebo effect), I’ve been planning this for the last few days and have aimed at recognizing the clear light with the intent of letting go of being. Everything is possible, nothing is impossible, the mind is a name for this flow.
These were just preliminary notes, a sort of statement of intent I jotted down as I paid attention to any apparent changes in the experience. The way in which sensing, whether with the eyes, ears or other 'door', occurred remained exactly the same as it had for the last few days, but this is complicated somewhat by a complete inability to relate the experience after a point.
That last line about "the "where" of mentation" relates to investigating any sense of location, finding the 'edges' of thoughts then seeing how the distinction was being made between the object and the clean, sensate experience of it. Looking closely at this happening, it was clear that there was no such thing as a sensation arising from anywhere, or returning to anywhere; I was still clear and contented at this point, the acid hadn't really started working yet but these small perceptual fluctuations were noted for the sake of recording as much as possible.
When I say "(something resembling) a PCE...", I don't know how else to describe things right now, it was just a convenient label to describe the clarity and happiness evident over the last few days. There was no affective element to what I described above, I was talking about how I could observe the way that the mind tried to label that pain as unpleasant but didn't 'terminate' in the same way.
The rather dramatic sounding line at the end was an acknowledgement that there is only this moment of being alive, I was stating my intent to let go of everything that remained and if that entailed death, so be it. Sounds OTT, perhaps, but I meant it sincerely.
Quick idea I thought I'd note.
The acid still wasn't making any noticeable difference to how things were, this just sounded like a nice way to phrase what was happening.
Insight into a personal issue which was resolved in that moment.
Seeing how solid colours are made up of the same spectrum, only seen with the eye and nowhere else.
2351 – increase in ‘spaciousness’ of the visual field, clarity, size seems affected, the keys seem smaller than earlier. Marked clarity. Memory seems slightly affected, but not overly so. Control is dissolving entirely.
I misjudged my timings...thinking that the LSD wasn't very strong I decided to take just over half of the pill. How very wrong I was... From here, the notes become increasingly confused but I'll present them as I wrote them, bearing in mind that I'm not posting this as a "trip report" or anything about glorifying recreational drug use.
The answer really is only here, in the brain of this body, in the neural connections which were laid out before consciousness even arose. I’m looking to an “outside” when both that and an “inside” are only distinctions of one taste, the philosophers stone is truly in the “mind”.
I mean to take as many notes as i can and take advantage of the selfless nature of how mdma makes me want to write more information down, it’s almost like, (but remembering it’s an almost), the addition of another stimulant makes it more fun to try to capture as much of the increased clarity in sensing as possible. A flood of ideas trying to be formulated into little units of sense. Confused trains of thought. Random snatches of coherence.
No need to conceptualize, just recognize. The beauty of words is apparent. The reflection of light from the smouldering joint on the backs of the fingers is splendid. No moment to cling to. No time. Just.
Ideas and thoughts are fractal. If i try to reflect on any of them or hold onto them, they vanish to be replaced seamlessly by another.
Blissful though, it’s exquisite. These notes will seem like nonsense in the morning, but i care not. This is a record and nothing more. Notes.
Single word notes or simple phrases to describe this
Simultaneous,
Possible nightmare, possible dreamland, both only in the mind
This is not enlightenment, but it peels back the skin
Reveals the dance of sensation, simultaneously perceived,
Too disorientating to be of use if you were to live this way all the time,
0211 – no point in trying to communicate the last hour or so of experience, leaving fingers to type the words leads to nothing sensible or coherent,
There is still hearing and seeing as normal, the senses continue to do their thing. Frames
Frames.
Unable to write this now.
Have i been looking for meaning still? Record the thought of that although it won’t make sense tomorrow. I have never been so utterly tripping hard in my entire life, this is just impossible to describe.0218. still hitting hard
0226 – seems more introspective
Still just fleeting snaps
Broken up poetry
No words at all describe this. Literally
Chaos. Completely no joining up of anything in any way, all gone.
Hoping that these fragments of words will at least indicate some of the utter hilariousness, which is also quite terrifying at the same time, of this complete lack of continuity.
Using this sentence as an anchor point to return to but experience is just so seamless that it’s impossible to describe.
“I” literally have no point of reference,
These seem like little mental loops of anxiety if you get caught up in them.
Notice it. Let it happen. It’s fine.
0344 – madness before this note.
Between 0211 and around 0500, I literally am unable to communicate what happened. All I can say is that the senses continued to operate cleanly, as they are and without any distortion but I was forced to confront some serious psychological stuff which hadn't been dealt with. It was exciting, terrifying, sublime and completely indescribable but revealed a lot of deep insights which I'm still trying to integrate, however today, and obviously with the after-effects of a combination like LSD and MDMA being taken into consideration, I have remained in the most stable, direct and clean PCE I've experienced since that five day thing last year. We'll see how things play out in the next few days, there's the typical 'comedown' from MDMA which usually comes about 48 hours after so it'll be interesting to see how that works.
Hopefully the completely disjointed and chaotic nature of these notes will indicate that this experience is not for everyone, and a person less experienced with their own mind could very easily end up lost in there. I am deadly serious when I say that this should not be attempted without major study into the chemicals involved, and a shitload of hardcore meditation practice; it was unstable to the point of near-psychosis at times and I do not recommend it, although it was an educational experience for me and I will comment further over the coming days.
EDIT: In light of recent comments by another DhO user, I feel I should clarify my use of the words "psychosis" and "near-psychosis". Using this wikipedia article as the basis for this clarification, the specific psychosis-like conditions encountered related to the definition of "thought disorder" given here:
This, to me, pretty much hits the nail on the head as a way of describing how my writing became less structured, yet did not descend into "word-salad" since even the faux-poetic turns of phrase still make sense and convey the point I was trying to make at the time. Perhaps using the word "psychosis" could be considered a tad over-dramatic, but I chose the word to convey how serious I am about the potential risks involved in these sorts of experiments.
Quickly examining the other possible signs and symptoms of psychosis, just so as to be clear and avoid any suggestions of mental illness being precipitated by this experience: I did not experience any hallucinations per se, perceptual distortions were observed when looking at the clouds and leaves on a tree, but at no point were they mistaken for "reality"'; at no point did I become delusional, I was fully aware that this entire experience was being brought about by the ingestion of a drug; at no point did catatonia occur, I remained awake and endeavoured to communicate my experience as clearly as possible.
I'd also like to add that I posted this report the following day and purposely didn't comment too much on it, although I will be editing and updating the comments in the coming days, as well as posting some notes written down the following day with a much stronger emphasis on this within a meditative context. Please do not construe my reports of this sort of experiment as either an encouragement, or a glorification of the use of drugs; what I choose to do is my responsibility, I post these notes as I know that there are people who are interested in this particular way of gaining insight, and in the general spirit of "taking one for the team", so to speak.
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 7/1/12 7:36 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/1/12 7:36 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent PostsTommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 7/2/12 4:21 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/2/12 4:21 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent PostsThe main practical benefit for me is the ability to experience the mind behaving in a completely different way; I know that it's possible to do this through various non-chemical methods but I've always had a fascination with this particular area. These sorts of experiments have also provided some deep and profound insights into the nature of experience, they've made metaphors crystal clear experientially, like understanding what the "clear light of awareness" actually is and how I've had access to "rigpa" for quite some time now, or how the same aspect of experience is described in other traditions.
I suspect that consciousness is just a chemical process happening in the brain [1] and that this process can be affected in various ways, which can lead to an entirely different experience of "reality" and even permanent change in the way the brain functions. It's those "various ways" which are of most interest to me, and the only way I can ever really understand them is to do it myself, hence my freestyle approach to practice and interest in models of experience.
[1] I don't know anywhere near enough about the science involved in this, even whether we're talking bio-chemical or electro-chemical, it's just a theory based on things I've experienced over the years.
Richard Zen, modified 12 Years ago at 7/2/12 10:18 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/2/12 10:18 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1680 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent PostsInsight into a personal issue which was resolved in that moment.
I love it when that happens. Some yucky feeling of a dislike of how things are turns quickly into acceptance and resolution.
This Good Self, modified 12 Years ago at 7/3/12 11:39 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/3/12 11:39 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent PostsJoshua Seren, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:14 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:14 AM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 2 Join Date: 7/4/12 Recent PostsHi Tommy,
No disrespect meant, but could it be that another way of looking at this is that you are using a spiritual / exploration type narrative to justify this kind of recreational drug abuse (mixing LSD, weed and Extasy)?
Could it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?
Thom W, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:03 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:03 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 63 Join Date: 12/31/10 Recent PostsHi Tommy,
No disrespect meant, but could it be that another way of looking at this is that you are using a spiritual / exploration type narrative to justify this kind of recreational drug abuse (mixing LSD, weed and Extasy)?
Could it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?
What do you mean by abuse? How are you using the word abuse here? In what ways do you judge this exploration to be abusive?
Thom
Joshua Seren, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:16 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 1:11 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 2 Join Date: 7/4/12 Recent PostsWhat do you mean by abuse? How are you using the word abuse here? In what ways do you judge this exploration to be abusive?
Thom
Well, the definition of 'drug abuse' is values-dependent, but here's the medical definition I got off Wikipedia:
in this specific instance I am using this term to describe mixing three very potent drugs together, which can, and did, result in 'near-psychosis'.
Obviously, this is just my opinion which you are free to disagree with.
Delicate Monster, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:30 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:30 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 21 Join Date: 3/13/12 Recent Posts
I took me two years after some similar type experiences to make sense of the world again. Several of my good friends have completely gone crazy permanently from over zealous psychedelic usage. Be careful man

Delicate Monster, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:41 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 3:41 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 21 Join Date: 3/13/12 Recent PostsDelicate Monster, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:02 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:02 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 21 Join Date: 3/13/12 Recent PostsCould it be that the very craving which causes dukkha is the same force that drives you to recreate these unstable and potentially dangerous (to the point of psychosis) experiences?
Na
Tommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:54 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 4:54 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent PostsThe answer to that is a categorical "no", I can see why you might get that impression but I can assure you that it's not the case. I have no interest in justifying the ways in which I choose to investigate my experience, these experiments are few and far between and, on the two occasions I've actually posted any notes or in the handful of times I've publicly discussed such matters, I always, always make it clear that this is nothing to do with recreational drug usage.
I find the use of the word "abuse" questionable though, at no point were any of these substances "abused".
Again, the answer is "no". There is nothing which "drives" me to do this, and I wasn't trying to "recreate" anything.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, none of these posts have anything to do with the recreational use of psychedelics or any other compounds.
Tommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:59 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:03 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent PostsObviously, this is just my opinion which you are free to disagree with.
Perhaps you're getting a little hung-up on this "near psychosis" quote, I used the phrase in it's most basic and straightforward way: Implying the possibility of entirely losing contact with "reality"...however, I could quite easily apply the phrase "near psychosis" to some of the states I've experienced while going through Re-Observation, or even during a PCE. A lot of your criticisms are based on the way in which you're reading the words I've written, and with very little knowledge of how my practices have developed over the last decade or so.
Edited to add: Having just gone and looked up a more precise definition of what "psychosis" entails, I see no inaccuracy in my use of the word; what might be useful would be for me to qualify the exact sense in which the word was used and which aspects of the clinical descriptions of "psychosis", nigh- or otherwise, I was referring to. I'll edit the original post and provide some more information so as to ensure as much clarity as possible, and also to emphasize the fact that I didn't enter into full-blown psychosis, but did experience certain experiential changes which could be described as being on the spectrum of clinical psychosis.
Tommy M, modified 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:17 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 7/4/12 5:17 PM
RE: When Molly Met Lucy
Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent PostsTo be honest, I was completely back to 'normal' by the following day and found it to be a thoroughly refreshing experience!

I've always tried to be as careful as possible with psychedelics, the dosage is controlled as much as possible and I always ensure that the conditions, the whole set and setting, are as pleasant as possible before even considering taking anything. I know this report is a bit more chaotic than the other one I posted, but this was something completely new to me and, looking back over the notes, I'm questioning whether or not there's a lot of practical value in them.
And thanks for your input : )
If you haven't you should give it a try.
I haven't actually, although I had extracts of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT a couple of years ago which were quite interesting. I'd like to try it, but it's prohibitively expensive to travel over and do it in a proper shamanic context.