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GOODBYE FRIENDS! D. Justine J 7/19/12 9:26 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Nikolai . 7/20/12 12:56 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! D. Justine J 7/20/12 2:01 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Tommy M 7/20/12 5:40 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Adam L 7/20/12 5:46 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! D. Justine J 7/20/12 7:53 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 5:57 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Tommy M 7/20/12 6:12 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 6:39 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Tommy M 7/21/12 4:41 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/23/12 12:47 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Nikolai . 7/20/12 7:07 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 7:24 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Nikolai . 7/20/12 8:27 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! End in Sight 7/20/12 8:19 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 8:45 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 8:44 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Nikolai . 7/20/12 10:07 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 10:13 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 10:17 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Nikolai . 7/20/12 10:18 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/20/12 10:40 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Nikolai . 7/21/12 6:24 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/21/12 7:14 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Shashank Dixit 7/21/12 3:01 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Felipe C. 7/21/12 3:12 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/21/12 8:16 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Felipe C. 10/2/12 11:10 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Shashank Dixit 10/3/12 4:58 AM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! ( ) Eggman 7/20/12 6:58 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! D. Justine J 7/20/12 7:43 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Tommy M 7/21/12 4:29 PM
RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS! Jeff Grove 7/22/12 10:14 PM
GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/19/12 9:26 PM
To

Dr. Daniel M. Ingram
Genitor/DhO & Members of DhO

Respected Sir,

1) This is Justine, Author, writing on Actual Freedom, on your prestigious DhO.

2) I was very happy to write in ,equally respecting the DhO practitioners.

3) Recently, I think some members in DhO ,have started mistaking me for a propagandist of AF.

4) I wish to personally tell that I am not so.

5) Everywhere I write that I love Buddhism, though I am a hardcore Actualist.

6) I always maintained decency in my writings, and was careful not to hurt anyone's finer sensibilities.

7) Persons like Tommy M, encouraged me to continue writing in DhO.

8) Unfortunately, some express doubts about my sharings.

9) Hence, I want to tell you, sir, forthwith I desist from writing in DhO. However, I will have to reply the recent threads for a while. That I will do, sir.

10) Thank you for all the support, and the permissions you granted me, to use the prolific and majestic DhO platform.

11) I express my sincere thanks, good will to all the learned Members of DhO.

Good Luck and may all auspiciousness be upon one and all!

Goodbye Friends !

JUSTINE

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 12:56 AM as a reply to D. Justine J.
D. Justine J:

8) Unfortunately, some express doubts about my sharings.

9) Hence, I want to tell you, sir, forthwith I desist from writing in DhO. However, I will have to reply the recent threads for a while. That I will do, sir.


Hi justine,

If I were in the same position as you seem to think yourself in, I would take the replies by others with a grain of salt and/or attempt to cultivate communication skills so as to improve the way and what I communicated to help those who I profess to wish to help. I wouldn't let a couple of critical replies be the cause and trigger for retreating from communicating here at the DhO. That seems to be quite reactive and does not achieve much, except for yourself? Perhaps one has more free time to not butt heads with other beings (which might be a good thing) or perhaps the 'feeling beings' you wish to help might project onto your retreating from here god-knows-what ideas that wont aid them in moving closer towards freedom from misery. But since you said you believe in 'destiny', I guess it doesn't matter. People will get what's coming to them, ey? You are representing AF regardless, remember that.

The way i see it, you get to a high stage of mental development or what have you, but it doesn't mean you become the best communicator or whatever skill people can develop alongside development towards the end of suffering. You ain't no god. I'm sure you could improve in areas of human development that could lead to being a better conveyor of the freedom you have discovered for yourself. Richard and his written words will not attract everyone. Perhaps your voice will attract those who turn from him.

I would simply take the occurence as a lesson to see if i couldn't better myself in the area of human interaction. I still think that blog is a great idea. I have written for one and have found it rewarding and helpful in cultivating skills like the one mentioned as well as being some help to some people. You would have full control of the content and the replying tot he content. Justine, you have a voice and you have things to say and you could motivate a certain personality. Please consider setting a blog up. It's easy and I'd read it for one (and I wouldn't bother pestering you for clarifications).

P.S. but if you really aren't coming back, I look forward to reading your articles and posts elsewhere (like a blog of your own)

Sincerely and respectfully,

Nick

http://www.blogger.com/

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 2:01 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
D. Justine J:

8) Unfortunately, some express doubts about my sharings.

9) Hence, I want to tell you, sir, forthwith I desist from writing in DhO. However, I will have to reply the recent threads for a while. That I will do, sir.


Hi justine,

If I were in the same position as you seem to think yourself in, I would take the replies by others with a grain of salt and/or attempt to cultivate communication skills so as to improve the way and what I communicated to help those who I profess to wish to help. I wouldn't let a couple of critical replies be the cause and trigger for retreating from communicating here at the DhO. That seems to be quite reactive and does not achieve much, except for yourself? Perhaps one has more free time to not butt heads with other beings (which might be a good thing) or perhaps the 'feeling beings' you wish to help might project onto your retreating from here god-knows-what ideas that wont aid them in moving closer towards freedom from misery. But since you said you believe in 'destiny', I guess it doesn't matter. People will get what's coming to them, ey? You are representing AF regardless, remember that.

The way i see it, you get to a high stage of mental development or what have you, but it doesn't mean you become the best communicator or whatever skill people can develop alongside development towards the end of suffering. You ain't no god. I'm sure you could improve in areas of human development that could lead to being a better conveyor of the freedom you have discovered for yourself. Richard and his written words will not attract everyone. Perhaps your voice will attract those who turn from him.

I would simply take the occurence as a lesson to see if i couldn't better myself in the area of human interaction. I still think that blog is a great idea. I have written for one and have found it rewarding and helpful in cultivating skills like the one mentioned as well as being some help to some people. You would have full control of the content and the replying tot he content. Justine, you have a voice and you have things to say and you could motivate a certain personality. Please consider setting a blog up. It's easy and I'd read it for one (and I wouldn't bother pestering you for clarifications).

P.S. but if you really aren't coming back, I look forward to reading your articles and posts elsewhere (like a blog of your own)

Sincerely and respectfully,

Nick

http://www.blogger.com/


Hi Nick,

My eyes go wet.

I keep you in my heart.

Goodbye.

J.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 5:40 PM as a reply to D. Justine J.
Justine,

Much as I understand why you may feel the need to leave the DhO, it would be nice if you stuck around and continued to contribute. You're always sincere and open in a way that other "officially" AF people have not been in online interactions, and this has allowed a better, clearer understanding of the methodology presented by the AFT site. As you know, many of us who post on this site aren't entirely in agreement with what you believe about Richard or his "discovery", but it hasn't prevented your contributions from being of value to many of us, Actualist or otherwise, and appreciated also.

I very much hope that Richard doesn't have a hand in your decision to leave, or is influencing you in any way to stop posting on here. You've been a very respectful, peaceful and genuine person and it's a shame that you've chosen to go, but I respect your choices and wish you the very best of luck in whatever comes your way. You're always welcome here and, if you like, feel free to drop me a private message if you want to keep in touch.

All the best,

Tommy

P.S. I second Nick's suggestion about starting a blog as I'd also read it. : )

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 5:46 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Hello Justine,

As someone who very rarely contributes but actively reads nearly all postings on the DhO, I'd like to echo Tommy's sentiments. I appreciate and enjoy reading your posts. Your sincerity, openness, and alternative perspective are quite delightful to read and I'm a bit saddened knowing that you'll not be posting here any longer.

-Adam

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 5:57 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:
I very much hope that Richard doesn't have a hand in your decision to leave, or is influencing you in any way to stop posting on here.

Hey Tommy,

I've been lurking on the DhO lately and I just couldn't resist commenting on this sentence here! Here is what it looks like to me (emphases mine):

[quote=Nikolai to Justine (6/1)]You didn't answer any of the questions. Which seems suspect and unpragmatic seeing as you are trying to spread the word here on a pragmatic dharma site. Why not oblige and continue to be honest? ... Avoiding the questions could possibly lead to others (those not already fully on board the good ship actualis) to simply thinking you are not wanting to share for some reason or other. This is a taboo free area. Feel free to let loose ...[link]

[quote=Nikolai to Justine (7/11)]If you wish to simply post and proclaim this and that as well as insinuating this and that without being questioned for validity, clarity, factual proof and further explanations then perhaps you should start a blog or website where you can be beyond reproach. [link]

[quote=Nikolai to Justine (7/18)] But you will go on giving your humble opinion via post after post of your thoughts on what you have deemed 'spirituality' and this and that (not parroting Richard of course nor selling a viewpoint nor being the ambassador of an agenda), yet no-one can ask for clarifications on said thoughts (that are not selling a viewpoint etc) as you will simply and humbly ignore or pass the buck or deem too 'argumentative' for your tastes?

Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the DhO at all. I still think you should simply set up your own blog. I'm sure you will get a ton of visitors and you won't have me asking you for more info and detail, which you seem not to like giving.
...
Maybe you could advertise your blogposts here at the DhO still. Then it wouldn't seem like you are proselytizing ... Perhaps something is at stake if one shares the details?[link]

[quote=Nikolai to Justine (7/19)]Do you wish to simply post your ideas and thoughts on the DhO without anyone asking for clarification and elaboration? Or do you wish to simply talk with those who do not question nor ask for validation of your ideas and statements? Your own blog would be a great idea if you wish not to be asked for clarifications and elaborations. Then you cpould declare whatever as truth and not be questioned. Have you considered that an option? ...
You are posting on the DhO, not a pure actualist forum where most posters may not be convinced of the actualist practice context. If one is simply left to spout one's ideas and opinions unquestioned, then the risk is that they will confuse others who may take what you right as validated truth when it may simply not be. Is that what you wish to do? ...
Your responses of dismay at being questioned do not seem in the spirit of the DhO. Do you not wish to contribute to this spirit?[link]

And finally, as if Nikolai had nothing to do with Justine's decision to leave:

[quote=Nikolai to Justine (7/20)]I wouldn't let a couple of critical replies be the cause and trigger for retreating from communicating here at the DhO. That seems to be quite reactive and does not achieve much, except for yourself?[link]

The word "hounding" comes to mind...

- Claudiu

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 6:12 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Hey hey!

The word "hounding" comes to mind...

I'll leave Nick to speak for himself, however your use of the word "hounding", as in to "harass or persecute (someone) relentlessly" is hyperbolic to say least. The highlighting of five quotes is hardly evidence of harassment or persecution, but at least you have the courtesy to say that this is only how it appears to you.

Hope all's good with you.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 6:39 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy:
I'll leave Nick to speak for himself, however your use of the word "hounding", as in to "harass or persecute (someone) relentlessly" is hyperbolic to say least. The highlighting of five quotes is hardly evidence of harassment or persecution, but at least you have the courtesy to say that this is only how it appears to you.

"Persecute" is too strong a word; I was going more for "harass". I don't seem to be the only one who sees it that way:
Justine:
I am dead tired of arguments, Nick. Let me have some breathing space.
[link]

Anyway, I just found it funny you thought it was more likely that Richard had something to do with Justine deciding to leave instead of Nikolai.

Tommy:
Hope all's good with you.
Quite good! Maybe I will be posting here for a little while, though I don't think public opinion will favor me too greatly...

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 7:07 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Hi Beo,

When you have finished up getting actually free yourself like Justine proclaims to be, I may ask you for clarifications on any statements you may make here at the DhO and if you avoid responding in the same way that Justine did, then I guess my questions will seem like 'hounding'. Would you believe yourself beyond questioning upon becoming 'af''?

Until then, when you aren't speaking from where you currently find yourself i.e. not actually free, you can think/feel what you wish of me but I will continue to ask questions that occur to me. I don't think anyone is beyond questioning here at the DhO regardless of proclaimed status. I guess if one continuously avoids discussing questions put forth to them, it might seem like you 'hound' this person to get them to eventually respond. Perhaps Jhananda felt a little 'hounded' when he came here declaring this and that and avoided civil discussion? I guess affectively, it would feel like so?

My advice: get actually free sooner rather than later and I can ask you questions instead of Justine. Hopefully you wont be so sensitive?

Nick

Edit: will posting here at the DhO help 'you' self-immolate or will you feel pulled and pushed to attack and defend a path you haven't gotten to the main objective of yet and perhaps fall into the tendencies to flip flop and/or cultivate calenture? Will posting maintain happy-and-harmlessness and enjoyment of this moment of being alive in oneself? Yes, a challenge. We'll see I guess.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 6:58 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

The word "hounding" comes to mind...


Nick didn't seem to be hounding anyone to me. He was politely asking for clarification on key points. He only suggested that Justine start a blog as an alternative to the open questioning & answering that prevails here.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 7:24 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Would you believe yourself beyond questioning upon becoming 'af''?

No, I would answer to the best of my abilities.

Nikolai .:
Until then, when you aren't speaking from where you currently find yourself i.e. not actually free, you can think/feel what you wish of me but I will continue to ask questions that occur to me.

I am indeed speaking from where I currently find myself (i.e. not actually free). I will think what I wish of you after that, too, and I hope you will continue to ask questions that occur to you regardless of where I am existentially.

Nikolai .:
I don't think anyone is beyond questioning here at the DhO regardless of proclaimed status. I guess if one continuously avoids discussing questions put forth to them, it might seem like you 'hound' this person to get them to eventually respond. Perhaps Jhananda felt a little 'hounded' when he came here declaring this and that and avoided civil discussion?

Perhaps. I wasn't too polite when I participated in that conversation. And the result was that Jhananda left instead of continuing to converse with us.

The reason I made the reply I did is because it was you who initially suggested that Justine leave and you who continuously suggested that Justine leave, yet you then seemed surprised (or at least, like it had nothing to do with you) when Justine actually decided to leave, and started suggesting to him that he doesn't. I just wanted to point that out.

Nikolai .:
My advice: get actually free sooner rather than later and I can ask you questions instead of Justine. Hopefully you wont be so sensitive?

Well, I was going to delay in getting actually free, but you've convinced me to do it sooner!

Nikolai .:
Edit: will posting here at the DhO help 'you' self-immolate

Yes, I considered that before I made the post and decided it would be a good way to kick up 'my' stuff that I could then investigate.

Nikolai .:
or will you feel pulled and pushed to attack and defend a path you haven't gotten to the main objective of yet and perhaps fall into the tendencies to flip flop and/or cultivate calenture?

No, no more flip flopping for me.

Nikolai .:
Will posting maintain happy-and-harmlessness and enjoyment of this moment of being alive in oneself? Yes, a challenge. We'll see I guess.

Indeed!

- Claudiu

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 7:43 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:
Justine,

Much as I understand why you may feel the need to leave the DhO, it would be nice if you stuck around and continued to contribute. You're always sincere and open in a way that other "officially" AF people have not been in online interactions, and this has allowed a better, clearer understanding of the methodology presented by the AFT site. As you know, many of us who post on this site aren't entirely in agreement with what you believe about Richard or his "discovery", but it hasn't prevented your contributions from being of value to many of us, Actualist or otherwise, and appreciated also.

I very much hope that Richard doesn't have a hand in your decision to leave, or is influencing you in any way to stop posting on here. You've been a very respectful, peaceful and genuine person and it's a shame that you've chosen to go, but I respect your choices and wish you the very best of luck in whatever comes your way. You're always welcome here and, if you like, feel free to drop me a private message if you want to keep in touch.

All the best,

Tommy

P.S. I second Nick's suggestion about starting a blog as I'd also read it. : )


Tommy,

You were one person who was great motivator and inspiration in my writings in DhO, where there was none even from my HQ. Thanks for that, as well for your continuing good opinion on me. But I find DhO scholars have deep rooted faith in their dharma practices. It is a good thing. And I may become redundant and irritant in their practices. The best thing is I go separate, independent, with a blog and I can neutrally share my things with those who may be interested in me.

No, Richard doesn't have a hand in my decision to enter or leave DhO, and he is not influencing me in my way to stop posting on here. He respects my freedom, and he trusts in my genuineness. Will you believe, that leaving DhO pains me?

Can you assist me how to drop you a private message, as I want to keep in touch with you?

Regards,

Justine

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 7:53 PM as a reply to Adam L.
Adam L:
Hello Justine,

As someone who very rarely contributes but actively reads nearly all postings on the DhO, I'd like to echo Tommy's sentiments. I appreciate and enjoy reading your posts. Your sincerity, openness, and alternative perspective are quite delightful to read and I'm a bit saddened knowing that you'll not be posting here any longer.

-Adam


Thanks Adam,

Pl read my reply to Tommy, on this thread, that conveys my thought for you too.

J.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 8:27 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


The reason I made the reply I did is because it was you who initially suggested that Justine leave and you who continuously suggested that Justine leave, yet you then seemed surprised (or at least, like it had nothing to do with you) when Justine actually decided to leave, and started suggesting to him that he doesn't. I just wanted to point that out.


Hi Claudiu,

Where did I use the word 'leave'? I do not recall intending to cause Justine to 'leave'. As you know, I have posted on a blog for close to two years now without 'leaving' the DhO. So perhaps I did not think that someone else would take it like so. I could have stressed to Justine that writing a blog does not automatically mean 'leaving' the DhO. Both can be done at the same time. A blog though was recommended to him as an alternative means of posting his thoughts without being questioned for clarification, something he seems to dislike. If it were anyone else being questioned but avoiding responding, would you have the same reaction? Or is something else at play?

Perhaps since I know what my own intentions were and since they do not match your accusation as i see it, then perhaps I can counter assume that you have 'projected' onto what you have read? What are such projections leaping from/affected by/supported by/based in/coloured by/flavoured by/triggered by? Perhaps this is where one can start to address that 'stuff' which one has 'kicked up'?

Indeed. We'll see. Though it will be more interesting to communicate with more 'actually free' people now that the numbers have dwindled. Patiently awaiting that day...

Nick

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 8:19 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Maybe now is a good time to chime in...

I think online discussion benefits when everyone assumes by default that the people they're talking to have good motives, are reading what others have written thoughtfully, aren't failing to connect points that should be connected, etc. That way, when someone writes something that appears to violate these assumptions, a person looks for alternative interpretations that would be consistent with those assumptions; and, if none are found, asks for clarification; and, if no satisfactory clarification is given, only then starts to make statements along the lines of "you think / said / did X, which is bad / unreasonable / unhelpful / etc."...

Whether or not people have good motives, are reading what others have written thoughtfully, are connecting relevant points, etc., is in some ways besides the point (though I believe as a matter of fact that these things are generally true of people here). To me, the value of making these assumptions is that discussions that assume them are likely to be more productive.

I'm not looking to single anyone in particular out or aiming at any particular interchange with this suggestion (though this thread seems to be a nexus-point for various kinds of difficulties in communication...).

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 8:44 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Hey Nick,

Nikolai .:
Where did I use the word 'leave'? I do not recall intending to cause Justine to 'leave'. As you know, I have posted on a blog for close to two years now without 'leaving' the DhO. So perhaps I did not think that someone else who take it like so. I could have stressed to Justine that writing a blog does not automatically mean 'leaving' the DhO. Both can be done at the same time. A blog though was recommended to him as an alternative means of posting his thoughts without being questioned for clarification, something he seems to dislike.


Ah, the way I interpreted your words was that you were suggesting Justine post somewhere else instead of the DhO, because he would not be questioned if he posted elsewhere. To me, that is a suggestion to cease participating on the DhO, and to instead post elsewhere.

I guess 'leave' would mean a 100% withdrawal, whereas what you are telling me now is that you were suggesting a less than 100% withdrawal. Is that accurate? If so, what sorts of things were you thinking that Justine could continue to post here, given that he would adopt the blog idea? It seemed to me like you were replying to everything Justine said, and suggesting he make a blog instead of posting that. What could Justine post that you wouldn't ask him a question about? It seemed to me like not a lot, which is why it seemed to me you were suggesting he leave. Let me know where my logic broke down.

Nikolai .:
Perhaps since I know what my own intentions were and since they do not match your accusation as i see it, then perhaps I can counter assume that you have 'projected' onto what you have read? What are such projections leaping from/affected by/supported by/based in/coloured by/flavoured by/triggered by? Perhaps this is where one can start to address that 'stuff' which one has 'kicked up'?


My reasoning was as I stated above. Summarized here: you suggested Justine stop posting things that he would be questioned about. You were questioning him about all his posts. Thus, you were suggesting that Justine stop making any posts. Which part of that is faulty logic/an incorrect assessment?

Thinking about it a bit more: if I understand you correctly, you were saying he should make all his posts on a blog, then post links to that blog on the DhO? What would the difference be if he posted a link or the in-line text? Wouldn't he still be communicating words to the DhO? Would you stop asking him questions if he posted a link instead of a bunch of text?

Nikolai .:
If it were anyone else being questioned but avoiding responding, would you have the same reaction? Or is something else at play?


I wasn't defending Justine, no. Rather, I was curious about your behavior. I noticed something, made the connections I did, and decided to voice them publicly to see what would happen.

Nikolai .:
Indeed. We'll see. Though it will be more interesting to communicate with more 'actually free' people now that the numbers have dwindled. Patiently awaiting that day...

You say that, but why do you want to communicate with more actually free people? Is it to figure out what's what, what exactly it means to be actually free, etc? If that is really your intention, why did you not take the opportunity you had to talk to Richard and really go in-depth with it?

AN ETERNAL NOW: I wonder why Nick didn't get back to Richard's reply.
NIKOLAI: Because i arrived at the notion that it was time for people (including myself) to shut up and stop adding to the confusion of (speculative or not) opinions which were becoming simply fuel for more confusion and not getting on with it for many people. It is a good development that those that were flip flopping for such a long time are more inclined and determined to take whatever path they have taken to its end, and soon I hope as the more data, the better. Nuff talk, nuff confusion, follow the instructions and get it done.
[link]

If that isn't your intention, then: what is your intention?

What will it be about a different actually free person that won't cause you to arrive at the notion that it's time for people (including yourself) to shut up and stop adding to the confusion of opinions etc.? If your goal is to figure out what's what, it seems like it would make sense for you to continue that conversation with Richard, no? Again, let me know if your goal is something else.

Also, what's the difference between Justine and Richard, that caused you to decide it would be a good idea to talk to Justine - that it wouldn't add to the confusion of opinions etc. - yet that it wouldn't be a good idea to talk to Richard?

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 8:45 PM as a reply to End in Sight.
End in Sight:
I think online discussion benefits when everyone assumes by default that the people they're talking to have good motives, are reading what others have written thoughtfully, aren't failing to connect points that should be connected, etc. That way, when someone writes something that appears to violate these assumptions, a person looks for alternative interpretations that would be consistent with those assumptions; and, if none are found, asks for clarification; and, if no satisfactory clarification is given, only then starts to make statements along the lines of "you think / said / did X, which is bad / unreasonable / unhelpful / etc."...


Hey End in Sight,

Thanks for the timely post. I decided to think my post through a bit more and tried to make it more explicit where I was guessing at others' intentions and what my reasoning was. It's quite the mental exercise to keep track of such long trains of thought in a proper manner, but pretty fun nonetheless.

- Claudiu

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 10:07 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


My reasoning was as I stated above. Summarized here: you suggested Justine stop posting things that he would be questioned about. You were questioning him about all his posts. Thus, you were suggesting that Justine stop making any posts. Which part of that is faulty logic/an incorrect assessment?


Where did I use the words 'justine', 'stop' and 'posting' in the same sentence? Perhaps you are 'thinking about it more' and adding to it? The suggestion for a blog of his own was an alternative to being questioned by me. I am not stopping from questioning and asking for clarifications of what he or anyone proclaims here. Do you wish for me or no-one for that matter to ever question and ask for clarification from anyone proclaiming this and that here at the DhO? If so, why? If it is person specific, then also why?

Nikolai .:
Indeed. We'll see. Though it will be more interesting to communicate with more 'actually free' people now that the numbers have dwindled. Patiently awaiting that day...

You say that, but why do you want to communicate with more actually free people? Is it to figure out what's what, what exactly it means to be actually free, etc? If that is really your intention, why did you not take the opportunity you had to talk to Richard and really go in-depth with it?


Because more 'actually free people' will provide easier communication and more variety perhaps. Or will they all be like the borg and offer nothing but Richard quotes? Justine is our first 'official' data on the net these days that seems to indicate they wont always be. But more data is needed to be sure. Perhaps Justine will have his status of 'af' stripped from him for saying something contrary down the line. Who knows? it will be more interesting and informative with more voices. Wouldn't it?

Rather than trusting in so very few accounts now that others' accounts have been stripped of 'officialdom', wouldn't it be better to have more official proclaimers discussing this without feeling the need to 'leave'? I don't trust nor currently accept what I have read of Richard's explanations of 'Buddhism' etc and his dismissal of it and see much of what I've put into practice leading to the same (or similar) result (and who knows eventually even beyond 'af'). Perhaps there are differences. Richard's opinions are sullied by not having a boner for his explanations of 'parinibbana', etc. I'd prefer others to chime in. And if there really is a difference, well, so be it. And if there really isn't, well, so be it. Then there wont be the need for the VERSUS anymore. It will be a simple choice for each person. I know you are against this. I am not.

I'd prefer first hand accounts from others with their own voice....like Justine but more willing to discuss with clarity and detail without selling an agenda and/or avoiding discussion. For this the DhO is useful and helpful and has always been like so and I hope it continues to be like so. When it becomes simply the floor for a select few to spout their views without being allowed to be questioned, I'm gone. More clarity from differing voices (of actually free) is what I'd prefer and am waiting for. I hope you will eventually share a phenomenological discussion when actually free yourself here at the DhO. As you know, I have certain 'buddhist leanings'. I don't share the same ideas as Richard. This probably is the main cause behind my want of clarity and no urge to discuss further with someone seemingly quite entrenched in their views of things. My conditioned behaviour supported by the spirit of this community perhaps is a player. Clarity over dogmatic and/or half-truth and/or baseless assumptions is what I prefer. Clarity over not clear. A thorn in your actualist side? Consider it a personality trait. ;-)

Edited a few times for flow.

Nick

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 10:13 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
(I split my response into two posts as the topics were clearly different.)

Nikolai .:
Where did I use the words 'justine', 'stop' and 'posting' in the same sentence? Perhaps you are 'thinking about it more' and adding to it? The suggestion for a blog of his own was an alternative to being questioned by me.

There must be something I am not comprehending here.

Nikolai:
The suggestion for a blog of his own was an alternative to being questioned by me.

So: the blog is an alternative to being questioned by you. Am I correct so far? Stop me any time.

wiktionary:
alternative: Relating to a choice between two or more possibilities

That is: a choice between two possibilities. So, the two choices you have established are: a) a blog of his own, b) being questioned by you. You are suggesting he start a blog of his own instead of being questioned by you. Am I correct so far?

The reason he is being questioned by you is because he is posting to the DhO, where you will continue to ask questions - something I am not suggesting you stop doing. Thus our two choices are now: a) a blog of his own, b) posting on the DhO. Am I correct so far?

Now, you were suggesting that he start a blog of his own instead of ("an alternative to") posting on the DhO. Am I correct so far?

So if you are suggesting he do something instead of ("an alternative to") posting on the DhO, are you not suggesting that he stop posting on the DhO?

Please let me know what I missed if you weren't, because I am really curious now.

Nikolai .:
I am not stopping from questioning and asking for clarifications of what he or anyone proclaims here. Do you wish for me or no-one for that matter to ever question and ask for clarification from anyone proclaiming this and that here at the DhO? If so, why? If it is person specific, then also why?

No. The issue I brought up has never been that it is wrong to question people on the DhO. I'm just curious why you continue to say that you never suggested Justine change his posting habits on the DhO.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 10:17 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Because more 'actually free people' will provide easier communication and more variety perhaps. Or will they all be like the borg and offer nothing but Richard quotes? Justine is our first 'official' data on the net these days that they wont be.

Who is projecting now? You are presumably stating that Vineeto and Peter are like the borg? Where are you getting that impression from? Here's an official data point: in my personal experience of meeting Vineeto in person, she was not borg-like at all. She was a sensible and intelligent human being who could very well think for herself. Perhaps I will write a report of my experiences of that trip soon and then that'll be a publicly official data point on the net.

Nikolai .:
But more data is needed to be sure. Perhaps Justine will have his status of 'af' stripped from for saying something contrary down the line.

And here you are assuming that an actual freedom is strictly a title to be bestowed by one human on another, and that it isn't a condition that actually exists of its own accord (as distinct from something you are currently experiencing/have experienced before)... I guess it's not too surprising that you're not interested in talking with Richard.

Nikolai .:
Who knows? it will be more interesting and informative. Wouldn't it?

Yes, but I don't know why you expect something else to happen. You haven't had a productive conversation with either Justine or Richard, whereas I have had productive conversations with both... maybe it's not them, but you?

Nikolai .:
Rather than trusting in so very few accounts now that others' accounts have been stripped of 'officialdom',
If you're referring to Tarin: Richard did not give Tarin any 'officialdom', Tarin just claimed that he was actually free, and then renounced the claim. If you're referring to Trent: Richard did not give Trent any 'officialdom', Trent just claimed that he was actually free, and as far as I know he hasn't renounced the claim yet. If you're referring to yourself: Richard did not give you any 'officialdom', you just claimed that you were actually free, and then renounced the claim. If you're referring to End in Sight: Richard did not give End in Sight any 'officialdom', he just claimed that he was actually free, and then renounced the claim and apologized for having ever used that model.

So who is stripping whom of their 'officialdom'?

Nikolai .:
wouldn't it be better to have more official proclaimers discussing this without feeling the need to 'leave'?

Agreed.

Nikolai .:
I don't trust nor currently accept what I have read of Richard's explanations of 'Buddhism' etc and his dismissal of it and see much of what I've put into practice leading to the same result (and who knows even beyond 'af').

Yet Richard has read everything you've posted publicly and come to the definitive conclusion that you aren't experiencing the same result at all. Maybe he sees something that you cannot? And I agree with his assessment, so it's not only Richard that thinks that.

Nikolai .:
Perhaps there are differences. Richard's opinions are sullied by me not having a boner for his explanations of 'parinibbana', etc. I'd prefer others to chime in. And if there really is a difference, well, so be it. And if there really isn't, well, so be it. Then there wont be the need for the VERSUS anymore. It will be a simple choice for each person. I know you are against this. I am not.

No, that's all I've been saying lately. Where did you get the impression that I am against that? Who is projecting now?

We're entirely in agreement on this point. It is a simple choice: do people want to attain an actual freedom as Richard describes it, or do they want to attain 'af' as you and Trent (for example) describe it? There is no versus here. They are simply two different things. It is you that is confusing people by continuing to insist they are the same. And when you have a golden opportunity to really flesh out whether the two are indeed the same, by speaking with an actually free person about your experiences, you decide to stop talking to him.

Nikolai .:
I'd prefer first hand accounts from others with their own voice....like Justine. More clarity from differing voices (of actually free) is what I'd prefer and am waiting for.

Do you mean you'd prefer someone who would agree that you are experiencing an actual freedom?

Nikolai .:
I hope you will eventually share a phenomenological discussion when actually free yourself here at the DhO.

I probably will, but if nothing else changes on the DhO until that happens, I expect I will receive the same treatment, and you will likely just wait for another person to become actually free. Given that I am now on the path to an actual freedom as a result of the way I see things now, I really don't see my understanding with regards to this changing.

Nikolai .:
As you know, I have certain 'buddhist leanings'. I don't share the same ideas as Richard. This probably is the main cause behind my want of clarity and no urge to discuss further with someone seemingly quite entrenched in their views of things.

If you were holding a banana in your hand, and talking to somebody holding an apple in their hand, they would likely disagree that you were holding the same object in your hand. Would you call them "entrenched in their views"?

It sounds to me that, despite what you say about being ok with there really being a difference, you really don't want there to be a difference... otherwise, why would you not continue talking with Richard in detail and really figure it out for yourself, definitively? Why would you instead try to talk to Justine, who is not even fully there yet and isn't even willing to discuss the topic with you, versus Richard, who is fully there and was willing to discuss it with you? It sounds to me like you will consider any actually free person that says you are not experiencing an actual freedom to be "entrenched in their views".

Nikolai .:
My conditioned behaviour supported by the spirit of this community perhaps is a player. Clarity over dogmatic and/or half-truth and/or baseless assumptions is what I prefer. Clarity over not clear.

What clarity is there in declining to talk to somebody who could shed light on what it is you are experiencing? When it became obvious that Richard read everything you publicly publicly and concluded that you are not actually free, you immediately stopped the conversation, saying that you didn't want to confuse anybody else.

Nikolai .:
A thorn in your actualist side? Consider it a personality trait. ;-)

Why would clarity be a thorn in my side? When it became obvious to me, after reading Addendum 7, that there was probably something going on that I was not understanding, I went and visited Richard myself to find out what was going on. It was because I valued clarity that I went to visit him. Clarity is the main reason I'm headed for an actual freedom now, and lack of clarity the main reason I wasn't, before.

Speaking personally, it is incredibly confusing to consider actual freedom and what you are experiencing as the same thing. It makes it impossible to make that choice you referred to earlier.

- Claudiu

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 10:18 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Ok. Let's chat when you get it done if you wish to. Then it will be clearer. At the moment, it isn't.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/20/12 10:40 PM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Ok. Let's chat when you get it done if you wish to. Then it will be clearer. At the moment, it isn't.

It's quite clear to me at the moment, but I can see you don't want to talk about this with anybody who disagrees, so that's fine. We can try again when I'm actually free, but I wouldn't expect a different outcome.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 3:01 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
. Perhaps I will write a report of my experiences of that trip soon and then that'll be a publicly official data point on the net.


Hey Beoman , I think we all can benefit from this report of yours and I'll really appreciate if you can put it up here.
I hope nobody says that I should rather be rather practising. emoticon I'm sure all this data will help someone or the other !

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 3:12 AM as a reply to Shashank Dixit.
I agree emoticon

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 6:24 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Nikolai .:
Ok. Let's chat when you get it done if you wish to. Then it will be clearer. At the moment, it isn't.

It's quite clear to me at the moment, but I can see you don't want to talk about this with anybody who disagrees, so that's fine. We can try again when I'm actually free, but I wouldn't expect a different outcome.


You are right about not wanting to talk to you about it. But if later you proclaim yourself AF and you disagree I will still ask you questions and discuss with you if you wish. I've read what you said on the yahoo list. You have visited Richard and have become quite motivated by the visit and what you came away with from it but you are not actually free yet and correct me if I'm wrong, as I recall, you have never had a full blown PCE. I don't think there is much common ground that we can actually have a decent helpful phenomenological conversation about things. 'You' are motivated and good for you. Go get it done.

Plus if we go on and on with these back and forths it may simply become fuel for people to defend, attack and cultivate calenture and as I see it, that is a waste of time. You will speak with authority when 'actually free'. I don't think you do at the moment. I'm not saying I am 'af', though I see many, many similarities between Justine's desriptions and my own experience regardless of what Richard has said. We can agree to disagree.

When officially 'actually free', you wont be speaking from hearsay and limited experience as a motivated 'actualist', but from your own ongoing 'actually free' ongoing PCE experience which I will value more as it will add more data where data is lacking. I don't think Richard will add much more clarity in my opinion and I'd prefer to talk with the 'newly free' as they are 'newly free'. I'm open to everything being different and unique, but it isn't clear that it is. You aren't AF and have had little experience of full blown PCEs according to what you have said here so i question how 'clear' it is for you as well. I'll await for any change on your part so we can chat phenomenologically. What was the reason for the edit to your last post btw? It was less reactionary.

P.S. The Dark Night Rises was a great movie.

Sincerely,

Nick

Edit: I'll leave you to your path and will refrain from backing and forthing from now on. It will be clear for me when more people talk openly about their 'actual freedom' freely, and in detail phenomenologically.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 7:14 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
You are right about not wanting to talk to you about it. But if later you proclaim yourself AF and you disagree I will still ask you questions and discuss with you if you wish.

Okay, but as it's a matter of fact and not a matter of opinion, I don't think you'll get a different conversation at that point. But I do understand your point of wanting to wait until I am actually free before continuing this discussion.

Nikolai .:
You aren't AF and have had little experience of full blown PCEs according to what you have said here so i question how 'clear' it is for you as well.

And I question whether you have had a full blown PCE either, given what you say now about what you think apperception is. As I said in that post, I do experience pure intent, and that, combined with reflective intelligence, is what makes things quite clear.

Nikolai .:
What was the reason for the edit to your last post btw? It was less reactionary.

Which one? I first replied with 'Okay', then I figured I could say something more useful so I edited it a few times.

Nikolai .:
Edit: I'll leave you to your path and will refrain from backing and forthing from now on. It will be clear for me when more people talk openly about their 'actual freedom' freely, and in detail phenomenologically.

Alrighty then. Talk to you later!

- Claudiu

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 4:29 PM as a reply to D. Justine J.
Tommy,

You were one person who was great motivator and inspiration in my writings in DhO, where there was none even from my HQ. Thanks for that, as well for your continuing good opinion on me. But I find DhO scholars have deep rooted faith in their dharma practices. It is a good thing. And I may become redundant and irritant in their practices. The best thing is I go separate, independent, with a blog and I can neutrally share my things with those who may be interested in me.

No, Richard doesn't have a hand in my decision to enter or leave DhO, and he is not influencing me in my way to stop posting on here. He respects my freedom, and he trusts in my genuineness. Will you believe, that leaving DhO pains me?

Can you assist me how to drop you a private message, as I want to keep in touch with you?

Regards,

Justine

I look forward to hearing more from you, whether or not AFT HQ motivate or support your writings I think you've got a great attitude to things, although I do understand and appreciate your reasons for leaving. I'm glad that we've been able to motivate and encourage each other, even though we may be looking at things through a different lens, and I see no reason for that to stop when you leave the site. I think your decisions shows a lot of respect for those more inclined towards dharma-based practices, and I'm sure that, in the long-run, things will work out just fine, maybe even coming to a clearer understanding of the common ground between our practices for the benefit of all human beings.

My comment about Richard may just have been projection on my part, but if you say that this is not the case then I accept that as the truth. Of course I believe that leaving the DhO pains you! You've been a strong contributor and your unique viewpoint has been informative, interesting and practical, and just because you're no longer posting here doesn't mean that I, or anyone else, should have reason to doubt your genuineness.

I think I've got your email address from one of your books so I'll send you a message and we can keep in touch, sometimes the private messaging system on here is quite temperamental so it's probably easier to just use email.

Once again, Justine, thank you for having taken the time to post on here and I wish you all the very best in whatever comes along next. You're one of the good guy's in life and it makes me happy to know that you're happy, Actualist or otherwise, and you'll always be welcome here should you choose to return.

Peace out my friend,
Tommy

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 4:41 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Quite good! Maybe I will be posting here for a little while, though I don't think public opinion will favor me too greatly...

Glad to hear it! I wouldn't worry about public opinion, shit happens and we all do our own thing in the end anyway, but if you're happy doing what you're doing then I certainly don't have any reason to criticize or disparage that.

I deliberately haven't been in touch via email 'cause I didn't want to interfere in your practice, and also 'cause I don't want to lose a good friendship over something as silly as disagreements about this sort of thing, so I figured I'd leave you to it until you're sorted out and then we can start talking about stupid shit like carrier bags, full of butterflies again. emoticon

Glad you liked that "BCDEFG" track btw, I thought that your online name would be a good title for it. emoticon

Take care broseph, speak to you soon.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/21/12 8:16 PM as a reply to Shashank Dixit.
Shashank Dixit:
Hey Beoman , I think we all can benefit from this report of yours and I'll really appreciate if you can put it up here.

Alrighty. I've begun to start gathering my thoughts about this... I'll definitely post it here when I end up writing it.

Shashank Dixit:
I hope nobody says that I should rather be rather practising. emoticon I'm sure all this data will help someone or the other !

Hehe, indeed.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/22/12 10:14 PM as a reply to D. Justine J.
D. Justine J:

8) Unfortunately, some express doubts about my sharings.

JUSTINE


Justine it is unfortunate you are leaving but I dont see why the above quote should be an issue
it is very hard to get a consensus with anything as there are as many differing views as there are people

take care
Jeff

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
7/23/12 12:47 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy M:
Glad to hear it! I wouldn't worry about public opinion, shit happens and we all do our own thing in the end anyway, but if you're happy doing what you're doing then I certainly don't have any reason to criticize or disparage that.

Naw I'm not worried, it was just a comment. It do what it do, as you said.

Tommy M:
I deliberately haven't been in touch via email 'cause I didn't want to interfere in your practice, and also 'cause I don't want to lose a good friendship over something as silly as disagreements about this sort of thing, so I figured I'd leave you to it until you're sorted out and then we can start talking about stupid shit like carrier bags, full of butterflies again. emoticon

Fair enough. Our convos seemed to come to a dead end anyway so as there isn't much point in talking past each other we can just discuss other things. A thought I had is that I could go ahead and get actually free and all, then come take a plane over and visit you, if you're willing and if I had the funds, so we can discuss these things face-to-face, where it's much more likely we'll come to an understanding, or even if not, could be fun to hang out anyway, hehe... what are your thoughts?

Tommy M:
Take care broseph, speak to you soon.

Peace out.

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
10/2/12 11:10 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
. Perhaps I will write a report of my experiences of that trip soon and then that'll be a publicly official data point on the net.


Any news on this, Claudiu? I remain interested emoticon

RE: GOODBYE FRIENDS!
Answer
10/3/12 4:58 AM as a reply to Felipe C..
Felipe C.:
. Perhaps I will write a report of my experiences of that trip soon and then that'll be a publicly official data point on the net.


Any news on this, Claudiu? I remain interested emoticon


Same here emoticon and couldnt be a better time in this DN