Spot the arahat

Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 1:24 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 1:24 AM

Spot the arahat

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
So, Daniel took a bit of a risk by experimenting with the old "arahat" claim on MCTB. And I'm still of the view that reasonable minds should be able to differ on the wisdom of that. In other words, he didn't commit a capital crime. So in the same spirit of playful risk and experimentation -- and this is the Battleground after all -- I have a question.

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?
I realize this could be seen to fall foul of "Not only should you not do unto others as you wouldn't have them do unto you, but also don't do unto them as they wouldn't want done to themselves regardless of whether or not you care if it was done to you.", but I'm pretty sure the above can all take a joke. Especially The Dalai Lama; he's always chuckling about something.

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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 4:04 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 2:44 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

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Robert McLune:
So, Daniel took a bit of a risk by experimenting with the old "arahat" claim on MCTB. And I'm still of the view that reasonable minds should be able to differ on the wisdom of that. In other words, he didn't commit a capital crime. So in the same spirit of playful risk and experimentation -- and this is the Battleground after all -- I have a question.

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?
I realize this could be seen to fall foul of "Not only should you not do unto others as you wouldn't have them do unto you, but also don't do unto them as they wouldn't want done to themselves regardless of whether or not you care if it was done to you.", but I'm pretty sure the above can all take a joke. Especially The Dalai Lama; he's always chuckling about something.

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I'd say it depends on one's take/version/view/belief/locked in non-negotiable (or tentative) thought loop/concept of what an 'arahat' is and has supposed to have done. Depends on how one views 'the end of suffering' or 'the end of all mental stress', depends on one's view of what 'stress' entails, depends on how one views the 'uprooting of all the fetters', depends on what one's take is on what entails a 'fetter' still arising, depends on one's take of what a fetter is, probably depends on tradition, depends on one's view of what 'fabrication' means and how they are or are not experienced post whatever is being called 'arahat'. Depends on a lot of things. i don't think everyone here at the DhO is onboard with the MCTB version. It is one take. But it is ok to have differing opinions on things. Whatever motivates us. Whatever floats your boat or makes you post things like this thread. One can still progress in a practice taken from MCTB and beneft greatly and be able to make up their own minds on how far it matches one's pre-conceptualised notions of arhat. One can get behind such views that it is the one and only fabled arhat and preach to their heart's content. Others may decide to hold off on overlaying experience with terms and definitions. What is important though, regardless of the concept fueling a practice objective, is that there be a practice practiced.

Seems you have a version which is fueling this type of post? So it depends on what type of 'arhat' you are talking about. Which version? And which spelling do you prefer, arhat, arhant, arahat, arahant, foe destroyer, noble one, ladidah.

More importantly, do you have a practice that is existent, non-existent, stalling or progressing in the desired direction or not? If so, how will knowing the opinions of whatever 'versions' of arahat/arhat/arhant/arahant others hold help such a defined practiced? If your practice is existent, that would be more helpful for you to talk about. This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first.

Edited a few times cos of conditioned behaviour.
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Simon T, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 4:29 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 4:29 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Robert McLune:
So, Daniel took a bit of a risk by experimenting with the old "arahat" claim on MCTB. And I'm still of the view that reasonable minds should be able to differ on the wisdom of that. In other words, he didn't commit a capital crime. So in the same spirit of playful risk and experimentation -- and this is the Battleground after all -- I have a question.

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?
I realize this could be seen to fall foul of "Not only should you not do unto others as you wouldn't have them do unto you, but also don't do unto them as they wouldn't want done to themselves regardless of whether or not you care if it was done to you.", but I'm pretty sure the above can all take a joke. Especially The Dalai Lama; he's always chuckling about something.

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I'd say it depends on one's take/version/view/belief/locked in non-negotiable (or tentative) thought loop/concept of what an 'arahat' is and has supposed to have done. Depends on how one views 'the end of suffering' or 'the end of all mental stress', depends on one's view of what 'stress' entails, depends on how one views the 'uprooting of all the fetters', depends on what one's take is on what entails a 'fetter' still arising, depends on one's take of what a fetter is, probably depends on tradition, depends on one's view of what 'fabrication' means and how they are or are not experienced post whatever is being called 'arahat'. Depends on a lot of things. i don't think everyone here at the DhO is onboard with the MCTB version. It is one take. But it is ok to have differing opinions on things. Whatever motivates us. Whatever floats your boat or makes you post things like this thread. One can still progress in a practice taken from MCTB and beneft greatly and be able to make up their own minds on how far it matches one's pre-conceptualised notions of arhat. One can get behind such views that it is the one and only fabled arhat and preach to their heart's content. Others may decide to hold off on overlaying experience with terms and definitions. What is important though, regardless of the concept fueling a practice objective, is that there be a practice practiced.

Seems you have a version which is fueling this type of post? So it depends on what type of 'arhat' you are talking about. Which version? And which spelling do you prefer, arhat, arhant, arahat, arahant, foe destroyer, noble one, ladidah.

More importantly, do you have a practice that is existent, non-existent, stalling or progressing in the desired direction or not? If so, how will knowing the opinions of whatever 'versions' of arahat/arhat/arhant/arahant others hold help such a defined practiced? If your practice is existent, that would be more helpful for you to talk about. This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first.

Edited a few times cos of conditioned behaviour.



I remember I did ask myself this kind of questions for a while at the beginning of the practice. There was this time when I was trying to define the conceptual idea of the realization of no-self. When we get into this mess, we heighten our sense that there is something to figure out, to realize, to achieve, to wake up to, but the idea isn't clear yet. Actually, it will never be until I get there. Still, the description of 4th path and beyond you and others provided have been useful to my practice. One of the thing that bother me with the whole taboo surrounding the claim of Enlightenment is that it make it impossible to discuss the very nature of the realization of non-self. So we end up wondering what exactly is that realization that they aren't talking about...
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 5:23 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 5:00 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

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I remember I did ask myself this kind of questions for a while at the beginning of the practice. There was this time when I was trying to define the conceptual idea of the realization of no-self. When we get into this mess, we heighten our sense that there is something to figure out, to realize, to achieve, to wake up to, but the idea isn't clear yet. Actually, it will never be until I get there. Still, the description of 4th path and beyond you and others provided have been useful to my practice. One of the thing that bother me with the whole taboo surrounding the claim of Enlightenment is that it make it impossible to discuss the very nature of the realization of non-self. So we end up wondering what exactly is that realization that they aren't talking about...


I'm sure it's a phase most go through. The idea of an 'end goal' that doesn't seem to have an 'end' can be confronting and confusing to the concepts already held in the mind. 'No-self' as a defining attribute for 'arahat' sounds like yet another version of 'arahat'. And it depends on what the experience of 'non-self' entails too. is it simply seeing that phenomena is not self? Does it mean a tangibly felt sense of 'self' continues to arise and pass? Does it mean it ceases to arise at all? If we are talking about 'anatta', isn't it part and parcel of seeing it in phenomena at 3rd nana? Or is it something else? Depending on how one views it, it could well influence what is done and not done in one's practice.

Realising 'non-self' (or no-self, not-self) VS uprooting all the 'fetters'. Would the selfing process entail being part and parcel of the arising of fetters? Would it be apart? Having one or the other views as the driving objective may well influence differing results, though by default I'd say uprooting all the fetters would entail the seeing no self in any phenomena (my tentative view), and thus never experience a tangibly felt sense of existing in any form permanently (tentative view). But seeing 'non-self' in phenomena but not seeing the permanent ceasing of a felt sense of existing (to whatever degree of being) may not entail uprooting all the fetters. Then again, it depends on one's view of 'fetter'.

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This Good Self, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 5:17 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 5:12 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Robert McLune:
So, Daniel took a bit of a risk by experimenting with the old "arahat" claim on MCTB. And I'm still of the view that reasonable minds should be able to differ on the wisdom of that. In other words, he didn't commit a capital crime. So in the same spirit of playful risk and experimentation -- and this is the Battleground after all -- I have a question.

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?
I realize this could be seen to fall foul of "Not only should you not do unto others as you wouldn't have them do unto you, but also don't do unto them as they wouldn't want done to themselves regardless of whether or not you care if it was done to you.", but I'm pretty sure the above can all take a joke. Especially The Dalai Lama; he's always chuckling about something.

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How did you come up with this list?

Obama??? emoticon Ego the size of Texas. I've never seen anyone so pleased with himself. This isn't a political comment - I think most politicians are pathetic twits, no matter which side they represent.

Dogbert - definitely.

Richard Gere - Act cool, speak slowly, move slowly, look wistfully into the distance... if only he wore some beads and a gown, then he would be a definite 'yes'.
This Good Self, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 7:11 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 7:09 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I have found some very good teachers on the following website. The author has even given them a ranking and a critique, so it fits in nicely with the theme of the thread.

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/ratings.htm
Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 9:10 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 9:10 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Robert McLune:

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?[...]
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[...]Whatever floats your boat or makes you post things like this thread.
[...]More importantly, do you have a practice that is existent, non-existent, stalling or progressing in the desired direction or not? If so, how will knowing the opinions of whatever 'versions' of arahat/arhat/arhant/arahant others hold help such a defined practiced? If your practice is existent, that would be more helpful for you to talk about. This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Nikloai.

But I'd like to push back on the above, just a little. (This is the Battleground after all.) Before I do so, are you OK with me doing it?
Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 9:29 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 9:29 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
C C C:
How did you come up with this list?

With the exception of Gere, the actual known-to-be-Buddhists are all people I've read or listened to and found inspiring/interesting/challenging in some way.

The Dalai Lama. In appearance at least: very clever guy, always smiles, patience of a ... of a Buddha I guess. 'nuff said.
Ricard, in his TED talk, was the first one who really got me wondering about the whole thing.
Thich Naht Hahn. One of his books (I forget which one) pointed me to "Let My People Go Surfing" and got me thinking about application of Buddhist ways to my business.
Kornfield. Liked Path With Heart. Working on another right now.
Roach. Again for business purposes I read and really liked his "The Diamond Cutter", although some of it pushed me to the edge of my credibility. Unfortunately a wider reading about him, particularly reports about his alleged bizarre intimate relationship with Christie McNally, then shoved me right over the edge into "WTF!?" territory.
Warner. He annoys me, but still I read his stuff emoticon Besides, he pokes at people so I thought it might be nice to poke at him. I imagine he's a nice guy to know.
Thurman. A local teacher I know called him "a wild man". I like that. I've watched some of his videos and get some good nuggets from there. And as I said, he explicitly says "I am not enlightened", so it would be interesting if others felt he was an arahat/arahant/arhat/wibble-de-dee.
Watts. One of mixed reputation. I was wondering if I'd get any "Oh heck, yes, absolutely!" or "What, are you mad!?" responses.
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 2:25 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 2:25 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

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Robert McLune:
Nikolai .:
Robert McLune:

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?[...]
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[...]Whatever floats your boat or makes you post things like this thread.
[...]More importantly, do you have a practice that is existent, non-existent, stalling or progressing in the desired direction or not? If so, how will knowing the opinions of whatever 'versions' of arahat/arhat/arhant/arahant others hold help such a defined practiced? If your practice is existent, that would be more helpful for you to talk about. This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Nikloai.

But I'd like to push back on the above, just a little. (This is the Battleground after all.) Before I do so, are you OK with me doing it?


I wouldn't have pushed to get an idea of your paradigm otherwise. Go for it.
Tom Tom, modified 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 3:12 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/19/12 3:08 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

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Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 8:06 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 8:06 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Robert McLune:
Nikolai .:
Robert McLune:

Which of these would you say probably is/was or isn't/wasn't an arahat?[...]
emoticon


[...]Whatever floats your boat or makes you post things like this thread.
[...]More importantly, do you have a practice that is existent, non-existent, stalling or progressing in the desired direction or not? If so, how will knowing the opinions of whatever 'versions' of arahat/arhat/arhant/arahant others hold help such a defined practiced? If your practice is existent, that would be more helpful for you to talk about. This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Nikloai.

But I'd like to push back on the above, just a little. (This is the Battleground after all.) Before I do so, are you OK with me doing it?


I wouldn't have pushed to get an idea of your paradigm otherwise. Go for it.

Your post was a criticism disguised as questions, and that risks being dishonest. You're not really asking me how knowing others' opinions of arahat-ship will help me. You are, in a covert way, *asserting* that they will *not* help me.

Asserting your position -- that my post is not appropriate -- seems fair game on the Battleground, although I'd prefer you did it on a different thread and not risk hijacking this one. But you should simply assert your disapproval, and not disguise it.

I, and only I, can know the original purpose of this thread. But I claim that most objective observers would see it for exactly what I intended it -- a playful push around the edge of discussing the attainments of others. It would be good to keep to that original purpose -- on this thread anyway. As with internet discussion overall, questioning the *motives for posting* is rarely wise unless the questioner has first developed good rapport with the OP. You and I are not there yet.

In time though, perhaps. :-)
respectfully,
Robert
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Simon T, modified 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 8:45 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 8:45 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
In one of his video, Shinzen Young suggests that one way to recognize an arahant is to look at the body language. An arahant generally move very little when sitting, contrary to most people who constantly scratch their nose, change sitting position, etc, During his speech at the Buddhist Geek conference, Kenneth Folk sat on a chair and beside blinking, he barely moved. It was very similar to how Eckhart Tolle sit when he give a speech. It looks a bit creepy actually...
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 3:06 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 9:39 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

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Your post was a criticism disguised as questions, and that risks being dishonest. You're not really asking me how knowing others' opinions of arahat-ship will help me. You are, in a covert way, *asserting* that they will *not* help me.


I am actually wondering how it will help you. I'm actually curious about your possible answers to those questions you didn't address. I assume what I have written has been read in the way you express due to the attempt at humour on my part and thus overlayed with a mental projection not of my own. Please feel free to share answers..or not. It is the DhO as well as the DhO battleground after all. Questioning is the norm.

Asserting your position -- that my post is not appropriate -- seems fair game on the Battleground, although I'd prefer you did it on a different thread and not risk hijacking this one. But you should simply assert your disapproval, and not disguise it.


Not hiding anything. This is the battleground not the humour section. You have posted something and I'm asking for clarifications but with my own sense of (unsuccessful) humour. If you wish to spend your time making posts like these expect to be questioned. In fact, talk about your practice and expect to be questioned. Expect to be questioned for any post you make at the DhO. It's the norm. Just like you have the right to question Daniel's use of the term 'arahat'.

Do you have a practice that is stagnating/not taken off yet/progressing/other? And if so, how will knowing who in your list is whatever version of arhat you hold will help with such a practice? Also what is the version of arahat that you adhere to?

I, and only I, can know the original purpose of this thread. But I claim that most objective observers would see it for exactly what I intended it -- a playful push around the edge of discussing the attainments of others.


What do you get out of it and how does it help your practice?

It would be good to keep to that original purpose -- on this thread anyway. As with internet discussion overall, questioning the *motives for posting* is rarely wise unless the questioner has first developed good rapport with the OP. You and I are not there yet.


This is the DhO. Best get used to the questioning regardless of 'rapport'.

I'm curious, therefore I ask. My attempt at injecting some humour of my own(following on from your own attempt at humour with certain personalties in the list being nonsensical) may have been unsuccessful in my other post above. But my curiosity remains. I'm more interested in a practice of your own and how such posts help it, rather than playing silly buggers over terminology so apologies for any misunderstandings. I have no intention nor 'urge' to develop a 'rapport' with anyone. If what I have asked rubs 'you' the wrong way, you can ignore it.

Do you wish to talk about your practice in another thread or not at all? This interests me so I ask about it.

Nick
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 10:19 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/23/12 9:47 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Simon T.:
In one of his video, Shinzen Young suggests that one way to recognize an arahant is to look at the body language. An arahant generally move very little when sitting, contrary to most people who constantly scratch their nose, change sitting position, etc, During his speech at the Buddhist Geek conference, Kenneth Folk sat on a chair and beside blinking, he barely moved. It was very similar to how Eckhart Tolle sit when he give a speech. It looks a bit creepy actually...


Technical maybe, but fetter model, no. He changed his mind on it a while back it seems. It is easy to do post MCTB 4th path and a little beyond to sit still and not blink nor move at all. Not much in the way of mental push and pull. I would not rely on such a criteria to diagnose though. I'm sure there are those post MCTB 4th who are more extrovert in their style of communication.

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/What+is+an+arahat%3F+(A+letter+to+a+friend)
Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:50 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:50 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
You have posted something and I'm asking for clarifications but with my own sense of (unsuccessful) humour. If you wish to spend your time making posts like these expect to be questioned. In fact, talk about your practice and expect to be questioned. Expect to be questioned for any post you make at the DhO. It's the norm. Just like you have the right to question Daniel's use of the term 'arahat'.

I didn't spot the humour (seems you, like me are a Brit!). My bad :-)

Do you have a practice that is stagnating/not taken off yet/progressing/other? And if so, how will knowing who in your list is whatever version of arhat you hold will help with such a practice? Also what is the version of arahat that you adhere to?

<tongue-in-cheek>How does knowing whether I have a stagnating practice help you with your practice? How does knowing how my knowing about arahat-ship do the same? Why do you ask about which version of arahat I adhere to? This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first. </tongue-in-cheek>

If anything "stagnating" makes me sound more advanced than I am. It's very slow going. And of course knowing who is on the list won't help at all. However, I believe that getting to know people on here via questioning and chatting, both formal and informal, will. My experience has always been that substantial conversation is best sat atop insubstantial conversation.

As to which version of arahat -- I don't have one. The point of my question wasn't to get answers -- it was, rather, the *getting of* answers. If you see the difference?

I have no intention nor 'urge' to develop a 'rapport' with anyone.

Why ever not? Are we perhaps using the word "rapport" in different ways? I find it easier to talk openly with people I like, respect, and in general "know" to some extent. And for some subjects it is only with such people that I would discuss them at all.

Do you wish to talk about your practice in another thread or not at all? This interests me so I ask about it.

My primary reason for being here is to help my practice and, perhaps one day, be able to help others with their's. But as I say, I personally find that is best done with some surrounding banter. We're only human, after all.
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 7:37 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 7:18 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

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Robert McLune:
You have posted something and I'm asking for clarifications but with my own sense of (unsuccessful) humour. If you wish to spend your time making posts like these expect to be questioned. In fact, talk about your practice and expect to be questioned. Expect to be questioned for any post you make at the DhO. It's the norm. Just like you have the right to question Daniel's use of the term 'arahat'.

I didn't spot the humour (seems you, like me are a Brit!). My bad :-)


Australian. Close enough.

Do you have a practice that is stagnating/not taken off yet/progressing/other? And if so, how will knowing who in your list is whatever version of arhat you hold will help with such a practice? Also what is the version of arahat that you adhere to?

<tongue-in-cheek>How does knowing whether I have a stagnating practice help you with your practice? How does knowing how my knowing about arahat-ship do the same? Why do you ask about which version of arahat I adhere to? This reminds me of the guy in a sutta who wanted to know what the arrow was made of, who fired it, what was the weight, how far did it go in, was it made with love, etc rather than just having it removed first. </tongue-in-cheek>


Because posts like these and little practice talk seem to indicate perhaps some stalling in practice. Could be wrong of course, but thus the questions. Knowing about your practice does not help my practice but seeing you talk more about your practice (and why such posts like these relate to it) may or may not aid/help/kick start yours. The DhO is primarily about practice. Over the past few years, there has been much conditioning on my part cultivated in responding to others here, leaning more towards a primarily practice bent than anything else as I ultimately see that as why people come to the DhO. There is nothing more to it than that.

The Dharma Overground is a resource for the support of hardcore meditation practice. It is a place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles. Here you will find a robust and variable community of people with a wide range of experience levels, perspectives and interests, though all loosely bound by the same basic principles of empowering, helpful, engaged dharma and exploration of the possibilities of the mind. Home Page


If anything "stagnating" makes me sound more advanced than I am. It's very slow going. And of course knowing who is on the list won't help at all. However, I believe that getting to know people on here via questioning and chatting, both formal and informal, will. My experience has always been that substantial conversation is best sat atop insubstantial conversation.


I see. It then may be wise for the both of us to consider that not everyone follows that line of thought and experience. Some people have come through here and posted insubstantial stuff and not much else without referring to their practice simply to rock the boat, seek attention, prop up an 'identity' (which goes against much of what many here are aimed and practicing towards). I'm just checking that you aren't another one. If you posted in the humour section, I wouldn't have bothered. But you invited others to comment and question your contributions by posting in the Battleground.

As to which version of arahat -- I don't have one. The point of my question wasn't to get answers -- it was, rather, the *getting of* answers. If you see the difference?



No, I do not. Can you elaborate for more clarity?

I have no intention nor 'urge' to develop a 'rapport' with anyone.

Why ever not? Are we perhaps using the word "rapport" in different ways? I find it easier to talk openly with people I like, respect, and in general "know" to some extent. And for some subjects it is only with such people that I would discuss them at all.


Due to the current baseline, I do not have any sensations that arise that lead to a mental reaction (urge) to want you to like me thus I have no triggers for needing to establish a rapport with you. If one seeks a rapport, I'm sure others will oblige. If one seeks advice about practice, I , as well as many others here, often experience others' seeking of advice as triggers for giving advice but there need not be the establishing of 'rapport'. You either interact and respond to questions and receive advice, or not. If you do not feel comfortable sharing your practice, so be it, but post in the battleground and expect to be questioned about motives and practice as that is what matters here at the DhO ultimately.

Do you wish to talk about your practice in another thread or not at all? This interests me so I ask about it.

My primary reason for being here is to help my practice and, perhaps one day, be able to help others with their's. But as I say, I personally find that is best done with some surrounding banter. We're only human, after all.


I see. I hope we get to the gist soon. It might lead to better things.

Nick
Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 10:40 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 10:40 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
It might lead to better things.
Nick

Nick, I think we're either talking at crossed purposes or have a deep disagreement on something, the resolution of which is unlikely to occur on an internet forum. Thanks for your time.
Rob.
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Simon T, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 11:40 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 11:36 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
Simon T.:
In one of his video, Shinzen Young suggests that one way to recognize an arahant is to look at the body language. An arahant generally move very little when sitting, contrary to most people who constantly scratch their nose, change sitting position, etc, During his speech at the Buddhist Geek conference, Kenneth Folk sat on a chair and beside blinking, he barely moved. It was very similar to how Eckhart Tolle sit when he give a speech. It looks a bit creepy actually...


Technical maybe, but fetter model, no. He changed his mind on it a while back it seems. It is easy to do post MCTB 4th path and a little beyond to sit still and not blink nor move at all. Not much in the way of mental push and pull. I would not rely on such a criteria to diagnose though. I'm sure there are those post MCTB 4th who are more extrovert in their style of communication.

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/What+is+an+arahat%3F+(A+letter+to+a+friend)


I'm not aware of this letter by Kenneth. What did he say in it? I would be curious to read it even if it no longer represent his opinion. Do you have a copy? By the way, I noticed that you removed your blog on AF. I was looking for a post where you listed some texts on the AF sites that you considered worthy. If you know what I'm talking about, can you send them to me?

Do you consider what you have been working on after 4th path to be align with the fetter model? In other words, how your AF-inspired practice (would you call it like that?) align with older traditions?

I consider the debate on post 4th path one of the most interesting subject that emerged from pragmatic dharma. As far as I know, cross-pollination didn't happen much in the history of contemplative practices.
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Yadid dee, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 12:59 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 12:59 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Simon T.:

I'm not aware of this letter by Kenneth. What did he say in it? I would be curious to read it even if it no longer represent his opinion. Do you have a copy?


The wonders of the modern day Internet: http://web.archive.org/web/20100810061520/http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/What+is+an+arahat%3F+%28A+letter+to+a+friend%29
Tom M A, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 2:59 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 2:59 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 67 Join Date: 8/22/12 Recent Posts
Hmmm, interesting list here, only a few worthy of comment.

The dalai lama is like that other pseudo pomp, the pope…

Both have a great PR machine to blanket the darkness that underlies their practices of deception, delusion and debauchery.

Both are conceptual rather than actual.

Both are expert emotional manipulators.

Both rewrite history according to their own agenda.

Both horde wealth, treasures and prey upon the poor.

Both knowingly overlook the sexual abuse of women, children and men.

Both are intolerant of other views or lifestyles.

Both are outright misogynistic.

Both are monopolistic and dictatorial.

Both are regressive non-progressives.

Both have enslaved people to form their own nation.

Both elevate themselves above all others.

Both have murdered in the name of their belief.

Both enjoy the company of despots, tyrants and other dung heap dwellers.

I’m sure that should do for now, but there are lots more facts if anyone requires these. But really, look at the face not the myth.

Another of you’re joke entries, right? Obama, well if this guy was an arahat of any description, push that red button, let the bomb go boom. The man is a complete puppet. This is a showbiz guy playing the part of being one of the people. All people in power are devious, do we need to know anymore than that?


Alan Watts, very entertaining. He’d have been better off letting go of his academia, but hell, sometimes folks fake nature dominates and they don’t even know it. But he never claimed anything other than he was… a scholar.
Tom M A, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 3:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 3:09 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 67 Join Date: 8/22/12 Recent Posts
Simon T.:
In one of his video, Shinzen Young suggests that one way to recognize an arahant is to look at the body language. An arahant generally move very little when sitting, contrary to most people who constantly scratch their nose, change sitting position, etc, During his speech at the Buddhist Geek conference, Kenneth Folk sat on a chair and beside blinking, he barely moved. It was very similar to how Eckhart Tolle sit when he give a speech. It looks a bit creepy actually...


Reminds me of J Krishnamurti, when he used to stand doing his talks, then realised that the lack of movement was actually detrimental to his body. I wouldn't make any hard and fast rules concerning posture, etc. Body language talks volumes when the body is in motion, not otherwise. Habits are easily acquired.
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Simon T, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 4:56 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 4:54 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
Yadid dee:
Simon T.:

I'm not aware of this letter by Kenneth. What did he say in it? I would be curious to read it even if it no longer represent his opinion. Do you have a copy?


The wonders of the modern day Internet: http://web.archive.org/web/20100810061520/http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/What+is+an+arahat%3F+%28A+letter+to+a+friend%29


I wonder about what exactly Kenneth changed his mind. One point that Kenneth make that is very important is that it make a huge difference to be told "you can do this". Even if it's not always explicit, monks in Asia have a way to tell that this can be done. An enthusiast Burmese monk was all happy to tell me that he took him only 3 years to become a "monk". "Monk" was his euphemism for his achievement. At another time, he said he reached a moment when he realized he was everything. Later, he would write to me "it worked for me, I know it will works for you". That's the kind of things people need to hear.

Buddhadasa has a book titled "Why were we born? Essays On Life And Enlightement". That's a pretty telling title. "We were born for non-compounding" as he said. Even more explicit: "Those who die without having come to know the state of nibbana or without even having tasted its flavour have wasted their lives".

Monks in South-East Asia don't have to advertise they are arahant. It end up being known and the community do it for them.
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 5:15 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 5:15 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Simon T.:

By the way, I noticed that you removed your blog on AF. I was looking for a post where you listed some texts on the AF sites that you considered worthy. If you know what I'm talking about, can you send them to me?


I like this one:

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/attentivenesssensuousnessapperceptiveness.htm

Do you consider what you have been working on after 4th path to be align with the fetter model?

More so than any other map, yes.

In other words, how your AF-inspired practice (would you call it like that?) align with older traditions?

I would call it simply 'raising the bar'. I think it aligns much better with fetter model but I hold off on making absolute claims. I'm just keeping my bar raised high as planting a flag here or there has ended up having to be re-planted elsehwere. Baseline shift after baseline shift has led to not giving much importance to it. Keeping a bar raised very high is good for practice reasons in my opinion and experience.
Felipe C, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:18 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:18 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
Hi, Nick,

Nikolai:

I would call it simply 'raising the bar'.


So, where is the bar right now?

Specifically: the "shadow being"... How is it lately? Have you dealt with it? If so, how?
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 7:27 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 6:52 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Felipe C.:
Hi, Nick,

Nikolai:

I would call it simply 'raising the bar'.


So, where is the bar right now?

Specifically: the "shadow being"... How is it lately? Have you dealt with it? If so, how?


Why do you need to know, Felipe? I don't think my experience nor take should matter to your chosen path. How's your actual freedom practice coming along?
Felipe C, modified 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 9:57 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/24/12 9:22 PM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
Why do you need to know, Felipe?


Simple and sincere curiosity and interest.

How's your actual freedom practice coming along?


Pretty good. It's becoming effortless and automatic. emoticon
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Eric G, modified 9 Years ago at 4/13/13 9:21 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/13/13 9:21 AM

RE: Spot the arahat

Posts: 133 Join Date: 5/6/10 Recent Posts
C C C:
I have found some very good teachers on the following website. The author has even given them a ranking and a critique, so it fits in nicely with the theme of the thread.

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/ratings.htm


Clickable version of above link, seems mostly Advaita:
Spiritual Teachers Org Ratings

Another one I came across a long time ago. The very use of the term Guru seems problematic, but:
Sarlo's Guru Rating Service