I've recently read MCTB, and was quite surprised to hear that nana cycles persist after attainment of the fourth path. Kenneth Folk's site mentions the same thing, so clearly this is just something I haven't heard about before now. It seems strange to me that meditation practice, which is in theory just the investigation of your own experience, ultimately leads to a permanent repetition of the bits you experienced *during* the investigation. The obvious non-buddhist explanation for this is "that's what happens when you do funny things with the mind for a long time", but I was hoping someone here could explain it from a Buddhist contemplative perspective. How does this relate to the notion of investigating the truth of reality? Is it that we always experience these cycles in some form, but only become aware of them at a certain level of practice?

As a bit of background, I should say that I'm not a very accomplished practitioner. I started formal meditation rather hesitantly a few years ago and made some progress: it's become much easier for me to notice when my mind is leaning in one direction or another, but I haven't even come close to stream entry or anything of that sort and my practice has been spotty for various reasons. I picked up MCTB in a fit of enthusiasm, and it very nearly put me off practice altogether (I'm still grateful that Dan Ingram was open and honest enough for me to have these issues sooner rather than later). I'm still in the process of deciding whether I should continue to pursue a Buddhist practice or not, and could use some clarification about the finer points.

The relationship with such phenomena will change drastically, even though at a certains stage, it will still 'cycle'. Not something one can 'imagine' but from actual experience does one see what changes. Via practice as well as baseline shifts like '4th path' as talked of here at the DhO and beyond it, sanna (the perceiving and proliferating part of the mind) is shown what it is doing wrong (I-making), and it can be changed/shifted permanently so that the mental stress that resulted from such a viewpoint, loses its cause and thus ceases to arise.

Quite a few of us (including Daniel himself) have talked of further progress (baseline shifts) where cycling dwindles and seems to cease all together, at least it has for myself, past what has been called '4th path' in MCTB. Daniel is currently writing up a new edition of MCTB where he might talk of what has happened in his practice since and th possible avenues one can go when one passes such a 'tipping point' (which Kenneth Folk calls '4th'). Even Kenneth has experienced further baseline shifts since and I would say 'cycling' has changed for many of us who claimed '4th' as talked of in MCTB and the DhO. The last few years have seen many changes and thus MCTB is due for a revision, which Daniel is doing at the moment when he has time.

Be open to raising the bar as high as possible. if that means the end of 'cycling', then let that fuel your practice. I did so with great success so far. Others here have as well. It would seem you really do get what you optimise for. If that is the end of allmental stress, then let it be so by practicing your arse off by getting motivated by whatever motivates. Even if you get to 4th' as talked of here, it will be something worthwhile, as you will know that perception, stress levels, and your brain can change drastically for the better. And when that knowledge is based on one's own experience, then what 'doubts' (like perhaps the doubts plaguing your mind at the moment) will there be to stop you going further if you wish to go further? So set aside those 'doubts' and simply follow the advice in MCTB. Interact with yogis here, ask questions, post your practice notes, progress and change your brain and be in a better , much better position to decide the direction (and there are seemingly a few varying directions talked of here) that best fits what you wish to do with your life/brain/mind/happiness/misery etc.

Nick

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In all honesty, my current take on the cycles seems to vary, being itself mutable and, well, cyclic, which itself would argue for cycles of some sort, which, given that basically every other system I can think of resonates, cycles, morphs, shifts, evolves, etc. in some way, is not surprising, and I am not alone in this, and know some practitioners who have previously claimed relatively high and impressive things, among them acyclicity, who now say, " Well, actually, there does still seem to be something evolving and even cycling..."

How to handle that in MCTB2 and have it make some sort of sense...

Daniel

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding, when you talk about continuing nana cycles, you mean something more structured and regular than day-to-day variations in mental activity, right? Even outside of the practice people have good days and bad, and since there are only so many variations on the theme you're bound to get something at least vaguely cyclic eventually. Is it reasonable to make a distinction between incidental cycles and more structured ones, or is that missing the point?