Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
So many people think they are in AP/DN/EQ/SE. It should be kept in mind that it took some very strong meditators on this board quite a long time to reach these stages.

Anyone who has sat even a single meditation retreat should easily relate to any of these stages. All of my retreats were heaven and hell. Meditation retreats are super hard, DN or no DN. Awesome things happen at retreats A&P or no A&P. As Nikolai has stated in another post the mind can be very tricky and delude you. That being said, over time dust settles and things should be more obvious.

To me, the strongest way determine if you have Stream Entry is to notice the continuation of cycles. Look for the first Dukkha Nana first. The Terror Nana. The emotions felt in other stages can be easily mistakable for feelings that come up in real life with real issues but the terror nana feels different than anything you would feel outside of meditation.

At the A&P you saw that every bad emotion dissolves, this provided an amazing and powerful feeling, now any bad feeling you have can be dissolved simply by letting it be, accepting it. The next stage, the Terror nana, simply logically extends the previous gained wisdom.

If this/that/everything is dissolving, where am I? To me the feel is most succinctly described as… “you are scared because you see yourself disappearing.. and without yourself (the ego) you will not be able to control reality (meaning you can’t get what you want)”
Ona Kiser, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 66 Join Date: 1/18/10 Recent Posts
This seems really random. Is there a particular issue you are trying to clarify?
Vidar E, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 8 Join Date: 5/8/13 Recent Posts
Some people experience spontaneous enlightenment, as Shinzen Young points out. Everybody's subconscious store-consciousness is different, depending on accumulated karmic "seeds" (atleast that is the theory). Also, the path is eightfold. Wisdom (right view, intention) and ethical conduct (right speech, action, livelihood) is as important as samadhi (right effort, mindfulness, concentration).
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Sweet Nothing, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 164 Join Date: 4/21/13 Recent Posts
Being new here and having browsed a little, I can respond from my limited perception.

I know nothing about SE or EQ, since I have yet to experience it.

Some random observations :

#1# What I've noticed is almost all new members, mostly who have never done or committed serious meditation, read the descriptions of the Nanas and immediately relate to either DN or A/P.

I have been through periods of depression in my life prior to meditation too, and if it was not for my post meditation experience I too would have easily passed myself for being in DN while I actually was simply experiencing natural suffering that is part of everyone's life. The inner experience of DN is very hard to describe, the only ones who can really understand it are those who've been through it.

#2# I have also had moments of great exploding joy, moments of great intuition prior, lucid dreams, A&P like experiences on psychedelics, etc prior to my journey, but none of it was A&P. Again, I would have easily thought I have been through A&P when I actually had not. Even when I describe the A&P experience to friends who know nothing about meditation, I know they think they understand but they cannot really comprehend it unless they experience it as well.

#3# Lastly, I have observed that some people are pretty obsessed with the experiences they have had as well as their own understanding of Buddhism or Dharma and are ultimately limited by them. This can range from simply denying the possibility of anything outside of their experience/understanding/beliefs to trying to break down everything that they are unfamiliar with into ridiculous personal explanations that they can familiarize with. Such behavior only limits oneself and this is why I feel intellectualization of all experience (especially that of other beings) is counter productive. Limited use of intellect is good because it helps us stay on the right path and gives us inspiration.

Edit: Fixed typo in #3 (bold)
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Lol, Sweet Nothing get's it. He knows the score. This should be a reiteration of the fact that the strongest propagators of this Buddha Sassana may not be attained people. Being attained doesn't imply that you know how to dispense dhamma, and not being attained doesn't imply that you don't, in fact I think the correlation is small.

The Goenka school should be.. acclaimed from every corner of the earth for what they have done. No one has come close to spreading dhamma like they have, the fundamentals in which they operate are stunning and flawless in the same way Bruce Lee’s fundamentals are flawless in the same way that Michael Jordan’s are flawless.

A couple more ideas:

1) Practice logs are a disaster. This should be obvious and I want the reason explained to me so I don’t have to

2) We need to be assholes more. A case study involving many couples found that 'resentment' is the single biggest factor in determining whether a relationship will last or not. This is so true. Resentment, passive aggression, is the seed that eats from within. It comes when feelings are not expressed. This Sassana will have tons and tons of people trying to be good and do good. Walking on eggshells not to harm anyone and avoiding conflict at great cost. In actuality this is wonderful but we need to guard against swinging the pendulum too far.

Suppressed energy will come up in one way or another. We need to be assholes more.. we need to be blunt, we need to be unapologetic, we need to get mad at each other
Tom Tom, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 466 Join Date: 9/19/09 Recent Posts
2) We need to be assholes more. A case study involving many couples found that 'resentment' is the single biggest factor in determining whether a relationship will last or not. This is so true. Resentment, passive aggression, is the seed that eats from within. It comes when feelings are not expressed. This Sassana will have tons and tons of people trying to be good and do good. Walking on eggshells not to harm anyone and avoiding conflict at great cost. In actuality this is wonderful but we need to guard against swinging the pendulum too far.

Suppressed energy will come up in one way or another. We need to be assholes more.. we need to be blunt, we need to be unapologetic, we need to get mad at each other


Hello CCC! It looks like you hacked into Blue's account!!?
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Care bears hacked into all your guys' accounts ;)


On a side note someone thought I was James Yen in another post lol
Russell ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 92 Join Date: 10/19/11 Recent Posts
Blue .:
Care bears hacked into all your guys' accounts ;)


On a side note someone thought I was James Yen in another post lol


Could it be because these are the most random musings we have heard here in a while?
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Lol, actually the issues are hard-hitting hitting and central.
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fivebells ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
In my case, it was a don't-Care Bear. emoticon
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Sweet Nothing, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 164 Join Date: 4/21/13 Recent Posts
I am glad that someone agrees. emoticon

I've been reading "A heart blown open", a kind of autobiography of the life of Roshi Jun Po Denis Kelly who teaches Rinzai Zen. His life is one of the most fascinating accounts I've come across. I would call this book a westernized manifestation of "Autobiography of a Yogi", which is also one of my most inspiring reads. An extremely passionate man who dreams of transforming the world, after several decades and going through much more than any of us will go through, realizes the world is perfect as it is.I still have not finished the book, but anyone who has interest in other traditions of enlightenment such as devotion, yoga, etc will find the book useful because in his spiritual quest, Dennis Kelly meets several great masters and seekers from different lineages and has several very interesting experiences.

When it comes to Powers/Siddhis, which are a subject of great interest and controversy; I feel what really matters is intention. That's it. If you are pure and do not intend to misuse your abilities in anyway that even hints of personal gain, then you will have a much better understanding and experience of Siddhis. This may be contradicting, but it's true. Just like we gain great insights when we least expect/want them. Gautam Buddha was capable of manifesting everything we can dream of, but he did not even manifest basic food for himself and lived the life he preached for monks till the very end. Surely there must have been good reason to do so.

I agree that the Goenka school has done great work in the spread of pure dhamma. In a way they have revolutionized the world. There is no more need to hunt down esoteric gurus or saints tucked in the remotest corners of the world. Anyone can simply register for free and learn what they need in just 11 days. If it was not for Goenkaji's work, I personally would have never come in contact with Dharma and would have continued to recklessly create more and more suffering for myself and for others. The very fact that this school is so well established in India is a symbol of integrity. The cultural and idealogical divides between different religious groups is huge, and yet we see people from different backgrounds come and embrace the same teaching and the same discourses.


The very essence of meditation is to be in the present moment. There should be no attachment or evaluation of what arises and what has passed away. Practice logs go against this very essence. This is why I agree that practice logs should be discouraged.

Being nice is nice but sometimes we have to be shrewd to guide people in the right direction. There is no need to suppress what we really want to say or camouflage it in wordplay. I also feel that we should not take offence at anything and get into ego play.

Lastly if someone observes someone doing something wrong or counter productive, instead of ignoring it's useful to guide them in the right way even if they aren't willing to listen.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Blue .:
We need to be assholes more.


You seem to get your feathers ruffled just from Nikolai asking you to put some descriptions to your attainments. How are you going to handle someone acting like an asshole to you?

Or did you mean just being an asshole to people other than you? ;-)
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Brian Eleven, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 221 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
Fitter Stoke:
Blue .:
We need to be assholes more.


You seem to get your feathers ruffled just from Nikolai asking you to put some descriptions to your attainments. How are you going to handle someone acting like an asshole to you?

Or did you mean just being an asshole to people other than you?



+1
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
+1

Man, not even Eckhart has my back on this one


Fitter Stoke:
Blue .:
We need to be assholes more.


You seem to get your feathers ruffled just from Nikolai asking you to put some descriptions to your attainments. How are you going to handle someone acting like an asshole to you?

Or did you mean just being an asshole to people other than you? ;-)
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
You seem to get your feathers ruffled just from Nikolai asking you to put some descriptions to your attainments. How are you going to handle someone acting like an asshole to you?


As I've explained many times now I'm happy to talk about almost anything when I'm ready. But you have to understand that I do not have the same preoccupation with detailed descriptions as you guys do. You guys, somewhat understandably, chucked the fetter and limited action model because some things were not matching up. I on the other hand, know almost for a fact that the fetter model and limited action model are correct. There is some extremely strong evidence. I also understand what is precisely meant when they say an arahant dies if he doesn't join monkhood in 7 days.
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Sweet Nothing, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 164 Join Date: 4/21/13 Recent Posts
Blue .:
I also understand what is precisely meant when they say an arahant dies if he doesn't join monkhood in 7 days.


I maybe a little out of my league here but I'm curious to know what is implied by death of an arahant on avoiding monkhood (someone who has attained the deathless state).

I was under the impression that becoming a monk was simply a way to hasten one's progress on the path. I was once told by someone that monks may casually develop great siddhis so long as they live by the monastic principles of Buddhism.
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Nikolai ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Blue .:
You seem to get your feathers ruffled just from Nikolai asking you to put some descriptions to your attainments. How are you going to handle someone acting like an asshole to you?


As I've explained many times now I'm happy to talk about almost anything when I'm ready. But you have to understand that I do not have the same preoccupation with detailed descriptions as you guys do. You guys, somewhat understandably, chucked the fetter and limited action model because some things were not matching up. I on the other hand, know almost for a fact that the fetter model and limited action model are correct. There is some extremely strong evidence. I also understand what is precisely meant when they say an arahant dies if he doesn't join monkhood in 7 days.


Since my name is in the post being replied to, I can only assume I am being included in "you guys". Blue, where have i said I have rejected the 'fetter model'? Please provide a link to proof for your blanket accusation. It gets harder and harder to take one seriously when one makes such seemingly self-aggrandizing statements and without benefiting this community with phenomenological descriptions to back up such claims. **Arsehole mode ON(which you actually asked for)/ I call bullshit. /**Arsehole mode OFF. Perhaps you do not have such an intention, but it does come across that way at times.

Be well.

Nick
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fivebells ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
I call bullshit. /**Arsehole mode OFF. Perhaps you do not have such an intention, but it does come across that way at times.


Trolling is a form of bullshit, I suppose.
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Mate, if dhamma were a game of football, Nikolai would be the red team, CC would be the blue team, you would be the peanut gallery
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Nikolai ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Blue .:
Mate, if dhamma were a game of football, Nikolai would be the red team, CC would be the blue team, you would be the peanut gallery, and I would be the stadium



;-)
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Blue ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Cheeky innit mate. 2 point conversion, Nikolai
C C C, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Everyone’s in the AP/DN/EQ/SE

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Blue .:
Lol, Sweet Nothing get's it. He knows the score. This should be a reiteration of the fact that the strongest propagators of this Buddha Sassana may not be attained people. Being attained doesn't imply that you know how to dispense dhamma, and not being attained doesn't imply that you don't, in fact I think the correlation is small.

The Goenka school should be.. acclaimed from every corner of the earth for what they have done. No one has come close to spreading dhamma like they have, the fundamentals in which they operate are stunning and flawless in the same way Bruce Lee’s fundamentals are flawless in the same way that Michael Jordan’s are flawless.

A couple more ideas:

1) Practice logs are a disaster. This should be obvious and I want the reason explained to me so I don’t have to

2) We need to be assholes more. A case study involving many couples found that 'resentment' is the single biggest factor in determining whether a relationship will last or not. This is so true. Resentment, passive aggression, is the seed that eats from within. It comes when feelings are not expressed. This Sassana will have tons and tons of people trying to be good and do good. Walking on eggshells not to harm anyone and avoiding conflict at great cost. In actuality this is wonderful but we need to guard against swinging the pendulum too far.

Suppressed energy will come up in one way or another. We need to be assholes more.. we need to be blunt, we need to be unapologetic, we need to get mad at each other


Yes this is wonderful!

No it's not, you're talking complete bullshit.

Did you feel a moment of recognition and acceptance after the first comment? Did you feel slighted after the second? There's a place where neither will affect you. Live in that place!

But I do think I see where you're going with this. An arsehole might be described as someone who doesn't care what others think of him, whether good or bad. Therefore he speaks directly, and that can sometimes sound blunt.

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