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Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)

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Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) bernd the broter 6/12/13 10:23 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) tom moylan 6/13/13 1:17 PM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) Sweet Nothing 6/13/13 1:59 PM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) ... every3rdthought ... 6/13/13 8:29 PM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 6/13/13 9:23 PM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) tom moylan 6/14/13 5:54 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) S. Pro 6/16/13 6:12 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) bernd the broter 6/17/13 3:53 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) bernd the broter 3/10/17 4:12 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) tom moylan 1/8/14 1:59 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 1/8/14 9:23 PM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) bernd the broter 1/14/14 5:32 PM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 1/22/14 8:19 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) bernd the broter 2/23/14 7:20 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) tom moylan 2/24/14 7:40 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) bernd the broter 4/14/14 9:05 AM
RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013) Vimala Samaneri 8/5/15 12:21 AM
Hi.

I've developed quite some interest in metta meditation lately. Now I've found this 10(12)-day metta retreat in the west of Germany in December 2013, led by Bhante Sujato.

Does anyone know if it's good?

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/13/13 1:17 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Hey, good link for us in this neck of the woods. I don't know anything about this monk but there are some links on the site about his writings. The schedule looks very relaxed and the "donation basis" is always a good sign in my book.

I have been toying with pumping up my metta and this MIGHT be the place and time to do it.

tom

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/13/13 1:59 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
I have exchanged a few mails with him but dont really know the monk except for his blog and some books.

He's a scholar in Buddhist literature and specializes in a form of Metta Bhavana he was taught by one of his first teachers.
To me, this looks like a great retreat to work getting deeper into loving kindness, and you can donate what you feel like.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/13/13 8:29 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
I know Bhante Sujato pretty well (he's based in Australia) and have done shorter (weekend) metta retreats with him before. I would very highly recommend practice with him - he's very down to earth and funny, but also knows his scholarly stuff inside out and is very much interested in early Buddhist meditation texts and putting them into practice.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/13/13 9:23 PM as a reply to ... every3rdthought ....
I agree, and Bernd I'm really glad you brought this retreat information here. I am applying to attend this one. I've listened to his lectures on Youtube and gotten a lot out of them. Thank you.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/14/13 5:54 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
I'm signed up! CU There.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/16/13 6:12 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Thanks for the info!

Sven

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
6/17/13 3:53 AM as a reply to S. Pro.
I searched and found a bit more information: Sujato seems to have done metta retreats in the past, where he gave talks which have been recorded and can be found online, see here:

1st
2nd

I'm currently listening to the talks in the first link. The audio quality is good and listening to him is quite nice.

btw now I'm signed up, too. It seems that there are still spots left.
(If Bhante Sujato is that popular, I do wonder, though, why this particular retreat is rather unknown, and why it is not on the calendar of his own blog..)

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
3/10/17 4:12 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
OK, so the retreat is over. I've been there. It was totally great.
At the moment, I don't feel like writing a detailed report, but I can unconditionally recommend to do a (metta) retreat with Bhante Sujato if you have the opportunity. Which may well happen because he leads Metta retreats very often.

Sujato may sometimes seem like a bit of what Daniel calls a sutta-head, but that impression is misleading. He's in fact the most pragmatic teacher I've ever studied with so far.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
1/8/14 1:59 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Howdy BtB,
Nice report. I wanted to do that retreat but life got in the way. It sounds as though you got some benefit from it and I for one would like to hear more if you get the time and urge.

Cheers,
Tom

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
1/8/14 9:23 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Bernd,

Thank you for posting his talks and thank you for the report. Similar to Tom, I could not attend: working on other projects I found I could not afford the flight nor the time off. (And I've wondered about flying to retreats ~ not that I ever have ~ that carbon footprint and how that money could be donated to others, if I can access some talks online). However, when I've read this bhante's writing and heard his talks, I find him very helpful and relaxing. He's humorous, too. I will certainly look for his retreats happening closer to home.

Metta was hard for me to develop before so-called "sotapanna" release in the fetter model, but after this metta became and becomes vital to study and develop. Ven. Analayo makes this point in his book on the Satipatthana Sutta: metta is key for the fetters in second and three "paths" in the fetter model. Metta tackles subtle and gross ill-will and craving, and it also breaks down conceit, which is said to be apparent in people working on fourth path in the fetter model. Personally, metta seems like pure sanity to me now. :]


_______
For newbies to the site: metta comes from the Pali word for friend, "mitto". So if the translation "loving-kindness" seems too foreign, and it did to me, then the metta practice can be friendliness, receiving and approaching with the mind of friendliness. As a friend said tonight, "This stuff (meditation) is called 'practice' for a reason and it's not called 'perfect' for a reason, too." : )

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
1/14/14 5:32 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
I noticed that remembering what happened on the retreat got harder and harder. So I decided to write it all down before it fades.
Here it is, including some more general information about the retreat.


katy steger:
Bernd,
I will certainly look for his retreats happening closer to home.


Where's that? If I understand him correctly, this was only his second time to be in Germany. Normally he teaches in Australia and a few other places in south-east asia, e.g. Malaysia, as he's saying in the first minute of this talk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15yBH2fKIm4
There even was one person on the retreat from Indiana,USA who said that Germany was actually closer than Australia, so he just had to take this opportunity...

katy steger:

Metta was hard for me to develop before so-called "sotapanna" release in the fetter model, but after this metta became and becomes vital to study and develop. Ven. Analayo makes this point in his book on the Satipatthana Sutta: metta is key for the fetters in second and three "paths" in the fetter model. Metta tackles subtle and gross ill-will and craving, and it also breaks down conceit, which is said to be apparent in people working on fourth path in the fetter model. Personally, metta seems like pure sanity to me now. :]


Are you referring to the Metta sutta? This seems to state that Metta should be practiced by someone who is already a stream enterer in the first line. When Sujato was asked this question on retreat, he said that this would be a very literal translation; in his opinion, it was written in the texts so that lay people would think "oh if even those noble people should practice it, then how helpful must it be for me".
This interpretation obviously fits in with Sujato's view that the Mahasi-fruition isn't stream entry. I'm not really convinced.

Incidentally, it's also my experience: only after a few 100 hours of insight practice did I suddenly get interested in Metta meditation. At the moment, I'm inclined to tell everyone I know to go and practice Metta - maybe that's actually not such a good idea then. (since I hardly know anyone who has done real insight practice...)

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
1/22/14 8:19 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Hi Bernd,

At the moment, I'm inclined to tell everyone I know to go and practice Metta - maybe that's actually not such a good idea then
Yeah, I don't think metta could hurt, but the unskillfulness of a practitioner could harmfully distort metta, e.g. i) One dealing with conceit can exude condescending pity/superior judgmentalism yet be under the impression of having metta, and/or ii) one dealing with self-loathing could use metta as a tool for self-abuse.

Bernd:
Are you referring to the Metta sutta?
No, when I wrote,
"Ven. Analayo makes this point in his book on the Satipatthana Sutta: metta is key for the fetters in second and three "paths" in the fetter model."
that's exactly what I meant: Ven. Analayo makes this point in his book on the Satipatthana Sutta:
Footnote 58:
The reason loving kindness is linked to progress from stream-entry to non-returning could be related to the two fetters that are to be removed at this stage: sensual desire and aversion. Loving kindness, especially if developed up to absorption level, can act as an antidote to both, since the intense mental happiness experienced during deep concentration counteracts the search for pleasure through the external senses, while loving kindness, by its very nature, counters aversion.
I was more emphatic ("(...) metta is key (...)") because of a conversation had together in a class and from developing personal experience).

What is this?
This interpretation obviously fits in with Sujato's view that the Mahasi-fruition isn't stream entry.
Could you point to where Mahasi writes about stream-entry and fruition?

When I refer to the mental release that established a person as being stream-enterer sotapanna, I refer to the suttas' fetter model ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)#cite_note-18: ^ For single-sutta references to both "higher fetters" and "lower fetters," see, DN 33 (section of fives) and AN 10.13. In other instances, a sutta regarding the lower fetters is followed by a sutta regarding the higher fetters, as in: SN 45.179 and 45.180; SN 46.129 and 46.130; SN 46.183 and 46.184; SN 47.103 and 47.104; SN 48.123 and 48.124; SN 49.53 and 49.54; SN 50.53 and 50.54; SN 51.85 and 51.86; SN 53.53 and 53.54; and, AN 9.67 and 9.70. In addition, the five lower fetters alone (without reference to the higher fetters) are discussed, e.g., in MN 64." These references I haven't checked.)

Bernd:
At the moment, I'm inclined to tell everyone I know to go and practice Metta - maybe that's actually not such a good idea then. (since I hardly know anyone who has done real insight practice...)
How does your parenthetical comment here influence your experimentation/study of metta?

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
2/23/14 7:20 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
I found another series of Metta talks by Bhante Sujato which contain more details about his technique. Those are weekly talks over 10 weeks. I listened through them completely and found them helpful. Look here, under 'Retreats/2007 Metta Meditation Course':

http://santifm.org/santi/downloads/Retreats/

katy steger:

Could you point to where Mahasi writes about stream-entry and fruition?

Not sure what you're getting at here. It was my understanding from MCTB that according to the Mahasi tradition, the first fruition equals stream entry. I looked at the "progress of insight"-text, and got the impression that it doesn't contradict this view.

katy steger:

Bernd:
At the moment, I'm inclined to tell everyone I know to go and practice Metta - maybe that's actually not such a good idea then. (since I hardly know anyone who has done real insight practice...)
How does your parenthetical comment here influence your experimentation/study of metta?


hm. Don't know? Not much probably. Rereading that sentence, I don't really remember what I was trying to say lol.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
2/24/14 7:40 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Hey BtB,
I really liked your notes on the metta retreat. they gave me more information about the structure of the technique which was very helpful. i had been harboring an unsaid prejudice about metta practice; falsely categorizing it in my mind as an unstructured touchy-feely kinda thing. in a way it is just that but there is a method behind the madness metta.

feel good

tom

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
4/14/14 9:05 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Meanwhile, the recordings of the retreat have been released. Look here:
http://www.dhammanet.org/archive/Metta_Retreat_Germany_2013
The recordings contain Bhante Sujato talking, and after every few sentences the german translation.

RE: Germany: Metta-Retreat by Bhante Sujato (Dec. 2013)
Answer
8/5/15 12:21 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Just to let you all know that there will be another Metta Retreat by Bhante Sujato in the same place in December 2015.
https://sujatoeurope.wordpress.com/bhante-sujato-metta-retreat/retreat-bad-meinberg/

This year we cannot make it on donation basis only - we just don't have the funds to pay for everybody's food and board up front.

With lots of metta
Samaneri Vimala