Some insight about what enlightenment is

Juan Solo, modified 7 Years ago.

Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 8 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
I'm writing this in the claims section to reach as much people as possible, so I hope it doesn't bother you, it is to show my impressions of what seems to represent enlightenment.

So first, the answer is quite short, it is a total bonding of one part of the mind with the other. The bonding is so strong that there is in fact no actual physical liaison or bond left when you bond totally, it is like marrying oneself to oneself, we can observe this through the apparent state of beatitude of enlightened people. It is because it negates the need of wanting the other, otherness (otherness as an object, world, person, idea, it is polymorphic). So in fact people in enlightened state live in total "self" sufficient, and satiated state. Need does not exist for them because there is no space for wanting, intput and output are directly connected. The energy to be received does not come the end of a certain desire that you need to attain, it is directly connected to the input of need. "The carrot grows in the mouth of the horse that eats it" if you will.

The're are a few things that show that to me. When I observe myself, they're seems to be otherness in parts of my mind and body. The "sight" of the Watcher, the sight of the Watched, and the obvious satiated state I am in when I observe myself, I am alone yet I do not feel lonely or loneliness, I feel rather complete.

It may be absurd to say that relationships of enlightened people are the best kind of relationship because basically they are in their own self satisfied state, and cannot possibly satisfy more the other than the other already satisfies him or herself. Also you can't interact when enlightened. You can only approve of people.

I was often self conscious of people being self conscious when I was depersonalized. But now I realize that it was an illusion, people only appear self conscious when are in interaction, they are in fact not aware of others when alone, in their own mind. Enlightened people often say that unenlightened people are ignorant, this is because of the way we are revealed to our self through interaction with others. People are unaware of others and themselves until they interact more deeply with others. Enlightened people gain the feeling of being revealed as compassionate and compassion-worthy by their enlightened self bonded mind.

ideally, I think enlightenment can be reached through the bonding of one person with another (of course it has to, because the principle of enlightenment is bonding, there is no reason why it shouldn't : everything is possible). But the idea of an only dramatic love relationship between people remains in many in this forums, and this is why they seek to reach enlightenment. By the way, my writing seems to be mechanical, I realize that, it probably won't convince or affect you, but it explains thoroughly how are things.

I hope you have liked or have felt challenged by my point of view
Juan Solo, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 8 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
Part of the problem of people suffering and wanting to leave suffering is because of the feeling of inadequacy towards people, of measuring yourself to another and not feeling you can't live up to their standards. It seems that when people say that unenlightened people only think of themselves, they are in fact saying : I don't want to be a regular person, I want to be better, but better to them, because I feel inadequate among them, and everybody feels inadequate among everybody. I personally always have been like that and it has pushed me into depersonalization. But to actually write this thread, is a testament of what I've been through and why I've been through this, and can only remind me of why I shouldn't feel inadequate, people who are happy and live without suffering negatively or pathologically are that way because they are in their own mind, their own skin, in their own space, if I ever feel bad about being myself, I won't actually be myself.
thumbnail
Songtsan Crazyfox-Tiger Ali, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 24 Join Date: 7/11/13 Recent Posts
When you say that there is no watcher to be found, that is true, but there still is a watcher somehow though, right? There is this being/consciousness/bliss that is suchness. So, although when you break the aggregates down, you find that that there is nothing else there at the center, the aggregates themselves formed the watcher, and yet that watcher was an illusion. So the watcher both is and isn't.

The watcher exists
The watcher does not exist
The watcher both exists and doesn't exist
The watcher neither exists nor not-exists
Emptiness
Fullness

These are all the same

Speaking in absolutes is flawed...this statement itself is flawed...speaking in absolutes is fine...

Those who know say nothing

I am saying something, so I do not know

I think that I know that I do not know

The point: suchness
An Eternal Now, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Hi Songtsan:

What you're describing is the I AMness. It's an important realization in my experience as well though the view, insight about Presence and experience can still be refined further. See: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/173915

Thusness also wrote in January 2006 commenting on an article by Galen Sharp:

I agree with what you said. There shouldn’t be a separation. emoticon There are 2 seeds that I sense lying deep in Galen’s Consciousness:

1. The meditative experience he gained on the aspect of 'No-Self'
2. The meditative experience of the 'ISness Presence, Knowingness Presence

However the imprint of the Knowingness Presence' is stronger than the understanding of 'No-Self' and serves as the seed that makes Galen remarked 'We are the Watcher, not the thinker, or the doer, or the experiencer', thus, creating separation.

The meditative experience of “AMness” is a very powerful one. It creates the impression of Certainty, Absoluteness and Realness. It creates the impression that we have touched the innermost reality of our own core being where thoughts play absolutely no role in that moment of experience. This is a very unique and sacred experience but is a double edge sword. It must be cleansed with the “Emptiness” truth otherwise there will always be separation.

What is the ultimate nature of this “ISness” Presence? Is the “ISness” Presence still the “Presence” when there is separation? When we are listening to a piece of music, where and what is this Ultimate Presence right at that moment? During meditation or when one is totally submerged in appreciating the piece of music, he might exclaim, “I become the music”, “I am the listening itself” or “I am the music itself”. The Presence is the Music is the Awareness is the ‘I’. Does it mean that the subject, the object and the action have suddenly become one? Or is there really no separation from beginning?

Separation is often the result of wrong identification, labeling and attachment. This is the problem of language and attachment. When one is free from labeling and experience is direct, there is really only listening, there is no ‘I’. This is what really is happening if we are not hypnotized and deceived by thoughts and labeling -- One complete co-arising emptiness flow, ever present and ever clear. There is no ‘ghost’ and ‘shadow’ in between, the ‘I’ is unnecessary and separation is illusionary.

There is no ‘Watcher’ apart from the watching. There is no doer apart from the doing and ‘own will’ apart from the volition. The ‘watching’, ‘doing’ and ‘action’ refer to the same process. This same process flows and continues life after life. The process reaps its own fruit. There is no escape.
thumbnail
Songtsan Crazyfox-Tiger Ali, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 24 Join Date: 7/11/13 Recent Posts
This is in response to the last two posts:

I hear what you guys are saying. I know that ideas of self/watcher/etc. are just mind fabrications. That it is all one thing, with no divisions in the ultimate state. I think we should always make a point to refer to conventional speak vs. ultimate speak. Conventionally there is a watcher - it is so demarcated in us from social conditioning that this is in fact, for all conventional purposes, more true than the ultimate truth. Truths in a conventional state are agreed upon, nothing more. If the state of Nirvana was the ultimate truth, why is it so extremely hard to attain so that only certain individuals ever attain it? I am just being a devil's advocate. Sometimes I wonder if we are already in the most natural state of being - that which has a sense of 'I' ness and that actually the Buddha was misled! lol I know I am wrong too - it is just fun to conjecture.

In reality, there is just action/reaction

I don't even think that there is any 'thing' that reincarnates with karma at all - I believe that tendencies reincarnate, but that there is nothing that escapes any wheel whatsoever. My personal goal isn't to try to escape some wheel of suffering - I don't like suffering myself, but I also don't fear it. I think that the Buddha was dealt a bad hand in coming from such a place of pleasure in his early life. As soon as he saw what the world was really like he freaked out and immediately decided he had to get away from this crazy place. I grew up in a world of suffering myself. I learned not to fear it, thus I don't really seek enlightenment, although I am on a path that will likely create enlightenment as an end result from it. I seek to improve the world around me, not in a Bodhisattva type of way, but in a different way. I simply want to make the world better for the next generation. I don't think that when I die that there will be some locus of quasi-self that will reappear and have to deal with what I did in this life directly. I simply think that the action/reaction marks I left on this world will affect what the energy that I am, when it returns to new life, will have to deal with. So it is true in a way that I will reincarnate, but it won't be in some local form, specific to a certain individual. The energy that I am in this life, will divide and become a nearly infinite number of beings. So I will be reborn as everyone that exists, and whatever mark my fabricated 'I' in this lifetime made, will be felt by all those new constructed 'I's. That is why I think there ultimately only one being in existence.
thumbnail
Songtsan Crazyfox-Tiger Ali, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 24 Join Date: 7/11/13 Recent Posts
"There is no arising, duration and cessation."

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."
-Candrakirti

Labeling anything as a 'thing' assumes it has fixed form, unchanging, or a beginning/middle/end, i.e. a strict demarcation. Energy/matter is always moving, fluxing, shifting, being juxtaposed. The definition of illusion is 'impermanence.' There are no boundaries between 'objects,' hence no 'objects' in the first place. Just one giant sea of energy, with denser spots of localized energy rising up like nodes. These give the illusions of separate objects. I view the universe as an ever-evolving fractal pattern, each part dependent on all others. Any small change in one part of the web will alter the shape of the entire. If Pluto suddenly disappeared, it would eventually mess up the paths of all the objects in the solar system. Astronomers have discussed this. It is just like a biosystem. Take out mosquitoes for example and a rip in the web of life would dramatically alter things for a while, until a new balance would be found. The sea of energy is like this in every aspect. Everything co-dependent, nothing self-originating - no beginning/middle/end. Death is just a mind fabrication. No beginning/middle/end, just continuous flux, new 'fake selves' arising and falling like waves.
Rist Ei, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
Enlightenment is unconditional state. Conditional state is when you are holding a thought/idea/whatever in mind to enjoy/live/explore the life. Also that thought will determine your next birth.

You can have enlightened state even before you enter into a stream. But its not a sure thing because you won't remember most likely to hold that state at the moment you die. If you can then you are saved.

Most likely you wont, thus there is work to be done- to ensure your sure ticket to spiritual worlds. You need to rise yourself to the mind and won it all by giving up a thought what you are subconsciously holding.
To do this you don't have to master the jhanas, you just need to find yourself and then rise it, force it. But while doing it you encounter the high levels of attainments like Nirvikalpa, Nirodha etc. To find yourself just examine what is to be, what it feels like to be, then making yourself more real is forcing yourself higher(higher but you don't feel going higher, higher is just a word).

All this said:
Everything will be same as before enlightenment. You can try it out by yourself by dwelling in the present moment(being aware) and compare it to regular conditional mind. But when you haven't entered to the stream nothing will induce you to remember to be awake. Being arahat you are many times a day awake, will be reminded very often.
It appears that it is opposite, that you are aware and time to time you get lost. Unenlightened is lost all the time and when he is having a brain what questions his existence or meets a teacher he is lucky. Enlightened being is most of the time awake and later probably finds out how to show others(transfer) what is to be awake.

fuck it when i found myself on earth again..
thumbnail
Nikolai ., modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Rist Ei:
Enlightenment is unconditional state. Conditional state is when you are holding a thought/idea/whatever in mind to enjoy/live/explore the life. Also that thought will determine your next birth.

You can have enlightened state even before you enter into a stream. But its not a sure thing because you won't remember most likely to hold that state at the moment you die. If you can then you are saved.

Most likely you wont, thus there is work to be done- to ensure your sure ticket to spiritual worlds. You need to rise yourself to the mind and won it all by giving up a thought what you are subconsciously holding.
To do this you don't have to master the jhanas, you just need to find yourself and then rise it, force it. But while doing it you encounter the high levels of attainments like Nirvikalpa, Nirodha etc. To find yourself just examine what is to be, what it feels like to be, then making yourself more real is forcing yourself higher(higher but you don't feel going higher, higher is just a word).

All this said:
Everything will be same as before enlightenment. You can try it out by yourself by dwelling in the present moment(being aware) and compare it to regular conditional mind. But when you haven't entered to the stream nothing will induce you to remember to be awake. Being arahat you are many times a day awake, will be reminded very often.
It appears that it is opposite, that you are aware and time to time you get lost. Unenlightened is lost all the time and when he is having a brain what questions his existence or meets a teacher he is lucky. Enlightened being is most of the time awake and later probably finds out how to show others(transfer) what is to be awake.

fuck it when i found myself on earth again..


Hi rist,

What is your current practice?

Nick
Rist Ei, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
Hi,
1. dwelling in the present moment, imho its nirvana.
2. applying sushumna, it induces prenatal energies to the system. Prenatal i guess is ether or sky(according to vedas)

Usually 45..60 min then thinking about it, did i discovered something etc, then again 45..60 min.

This is doing the same thing what i discovered after 1st path.

i try to play with the energies too, but i think its not important.

Rist
Rist Ei, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Some insight about what enlightenment is

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
Going into details then impermanence is that you see things appearing and disappearing from your perception. That means also you change every time you change the idea in mind, you die. That doesn't count when you are aware and then change the idea, but i.e sometimes you are aware then again you are not aware and what is in between is unknown event and that's death.
I assume that Nirodha is going into that unknown event and being aware of how the perception dies and later again put together. Probably wrong assumption..but what else is Nirodha.

Your body has a exact time when it dies. Sages tell that you can manipulate it. It something what can't be learnt from a book. I assume it must be come by insight, from the source what already knows it, this knowledge is inside of you. Maybe you have it already but don't know that you have it. And i assume that the insight comes by cultivating energies, when its enough cultivated then knowledge will be revealed.

There is no-mind realms free from three modes of nature. According to vedas there is 25% material worlds and 75% spiritual realms. And individual souls like us are marginal potency. That individual soul decides what he serves, the three modes of nature(what makes up mind) or Lord. There is master intelligence and servant intelligence(we). That master intelligence created us to experience itself(Godhead). We decided to experience world on our own, to do this three things are required- background, me and others. To experience individually then mind works as background instead of Lord. We need to give up mind(the idea, the thing what we are holding subconsciously). Lord is always with us(in a formless form of paramatma) watching us.

There is enough materials about spiritual realms..Jesus Christ materials i.e. He talked about eternal life when you love Me. Love means being unconditional (you have given up the subconscious thing). After enlightenment you have a "contract" don't remember exactly but something similar is talked about in Uruntia book.

There is higher powers existing what me and you don't understands and also the first being Brahma don't understand.
I believe that this enlightenment is beginning with the streamenterer(sotapanna) is signing in to a eternal life(there is enough prove in the literature and my own knowledge what make me to believe it).

Dwelling in dark place in full awareness, it is just an aspect of yourself(sat).

Breadcrumb