This is how the Sasana dies

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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 3:01 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 12:25 AM

This is how the Sasana dies

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Matt L, modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 1:06 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 1:06 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Zyndo Zyhion, modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 10:02 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 10:01 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Daniels Ingram's book covers this argument, he calls it the mushroom factor! You make up your own mind? I doubt people here will waste time trying to convince you!

Sorry, of course, assuming that is what you are saying?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 10:23 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 10:23 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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neem nyima:
Daniels Ingram's book covers this argument, he calls it the mushroom factor! You make up your own mind? I doubt people here will waste time trying to convince you!

Sorry, of course, assuming that is what you are saying?


Whoa re-reading this is interesting:

It seems that you can only help those with very clear, strong, and noble motivations who are willing to listen and also be intelligent and realistic about their relationship to you as a fellow human being and with whom your personality seems to fit fairly well. Further, you can only help those who will actually practice, engage and inquire. This turns out to be a very small group most of the time. You could also say that you can only teach those who didn’t really need you to teach them in the first place, as they were going to do it anyway.


I wonder how this fits into what teachers experience with any subject?
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Zyndo Zyhion, modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 12:03 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 12:03 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Richard Zen:
neem nyima:
Daniels Ingram's book covers this argument, he calls it the mushroom factor! You make up your own mind? I doubt people here will waste time trying to convince you!

Sorry, of course, assuming that is what you are saying?


Whoa re-reading this is interesting:

It seems that you can only help those with very clear, strong, and noble motivations who are willing to listen and also be intelligent and realistic about their relationship to you as a fellow human being and with whom your personality seems to fit fairly well. Further, you can only help those who will actually practice, engage and inquire. This turns out to be a very small group most of the time. You could also say that you can only teach those who didn’t really need you to teach them in the first place, as they were going to do it anyway.


I wonder how this fits into what teachers experience with any subject?

Your welcome to teach him Richard…
I've found it tiring engaging in this debate with people generally. I don't think he is asking for teaching here, though? He may not even be asking for a debate? Why don't you present the mushroom debate, in the centre for the decay of the Sasana? I can't sleep, so thanks for your inpute, its fun talking to someone, something to do!
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 5:46 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 5:46 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Forget it, I'm retiring
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 9:24 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 9:24 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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I must be missing something. I have no idea what's going on. emoticon
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 9:29 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/4/13 9:29 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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blue I agree with you that that thread is pretty much nonsense. but no need to worry about that! ;)
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 12:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 12:26 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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thx dude, won't let it raise my blood pressure
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Zyndo Zyhion, modified 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 1:48 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 1:48 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Blue appears to be using the classic argument of the cause for the death of the sasana such as when people speak about their attainments, but in a different context here. Blue is not against the disclosure of Ingram's book as a traditionalist would be. Like the associated counter argument, which uses the metaphor of the mushroom growing in the dark in Ingram's book.

Blue, seems to be upset by the above link to another thread, possible considering it to be the cause for ignorance and therefore the death of the dhamma/sasana ie the period of the buddha's dispensation. If buddha predicted his teachings would last 5000 years isn't that set in stone?
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 1:29 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 1:29 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
The Sasana dies through dilution of the technique. The simplicity is very important. A 100% Xerox turns into a 99%, a 99% turns into a 97%, ect ect, until the technique is done.

There is only two things to ever know about meditation…. Awareness and doing nothing.

Anapana: Breath + Oservation

Goenka: Body Sensation + Equanimity

Mahasi: Variable + Noting

All the same and until you have this engrained 110% I would not even think of things like jhana, teachers, or books.
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Dream Walker, modified 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 3:05 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 3:05 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Blue .:
thx dude, won't let it raise my blood pressure

Never meant to get you all riled up. I am just exploring ideas that I have not explored before and saw some patterns and started digging deeper to understand what causes the illusion of self and how it goes away. You obviously have the how it goes away down part and if that is as far as you are willing to explore then great. Most people agree with you. Meditate and get enlightened... end of story.
I have questions,
1) What are the skandas and how do they relate to the self?
2) Do the derived material qualities that are mentioned as having to do with the self in the vittumagga have any relevancy and do they combine with the skandas in any way?
3) How does the enlightenment process work path to path are there differences?
4) Where does the selfing feeling get inserted into the skandas or derived material qualities
5) Are there different things that the self is entangled with in a path/stage based approach?
6) What happens at shutdown if stage based, can the stages and different axis be combined?
7) What were the effects after shutdown?
8) more questions as the material unfolds...
Is there a model that can explore these ideas and more? That is what I am finding out. I asked for feedback in the thread but you did not give any there. Thanks for your seagull management here.
Please feel free to ignore my nonsense. I have found the process interesting and educational but probably only to myself. I will continue until I have finished this exploration of dharma. right or wrong.
With Metta
~D
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Mind over easy, modified 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 4:02 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 4:02 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

Posts: 239 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
We're definitely on a fringe with this "pragmatic, hardcore dharma" approach for sure. I highly respect the teachings of Buddha and the raw, unchanged teachings in the Pali Canon remain an amazingly valuable source. In my experience (still pre-SE, it seems), after reading the original texts, I was enthusiastic and saw truth, but had a lot of trouble actually knowing how to practice from those texts. I dabbled but couldn't quite get things right, and found myself sitting, mind wandering, frustrated, and not sure how to actually do the things. Coupled with the high reverence and extremely high standards in the texts, I was discouraged and under the impression that I had to give up the home life, take alms, perfectly follow the precepts in order to start making progress. I'm not disputing the high standards or the trainings in morality that are recommended in the original texts, but there's another side to it. After reading some pragmatic stuff, where people were openly talking about attainments and talking about tweaks here and there, different ways of looking at states/stages/original lists/enlightenment/practice techniques, practice opened up, I started crossing the A&P, getting into soft jhanas, feeling in a better place, and feeling like there was a community where I could talk about my experience, what I thought was going on, and get a lot of good feedback in my original language, without the loss of meaning due to translating an extremely old language. There's also the fact that Buddha was constantly using analogies, changing the phrasing of his teachings and techniques, and modifying the approaches to suit the audiences he was teaching, with their various backgrounds and tendencies (all of which are from over two thousand years ago). If we had Buddha here now, I'm sure he would adjust his teachings to suit the minds and predispositions of our time. He gave so many different methods of practice that were all designed to lead to the same end-goal. He used all his various fingers to "point to the moon", though the moon (end-goal, essence of dharma) itself remained the same. But after long enough, people start to make maps and compasses and telescopes and technology/language/culture/predispositions change, so why not find new ways to point to the moon? Besides, in the end, we have amazing technology nowadays... we have cyber information that isn't rusting, that can't be lost just because word of mouth isn't there. We won't lose the Pali Canon, we won't lose the original discourses. If you're worried about the sasana dying, perhaps you should make a dozen time capsules for 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 years from now and scatter them to assure these original teachings aren't lost.

Just my 2 cents, as someone who personally admires and finds practical application in the new frameworks that we have to help get to the moon.
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 11:17 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/5/13 11:17 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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I shouldn’t have picked on your one post, I bring it up because I see it a lot around here and your post was simply an exaggeration of it. It is easy getting excited about things want to share them with others, hell, how would be get through whole courses without lots of awesome things happening. I'll talk about the Skandas in a little bit.
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Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 8/6/13 4:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/6/13 4:14 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Blue .:
I shouldn’t have picked on your one post, I bring it up because I see it a lot around here and your post was simply an exaggeration of it. It is easy getting excited about things want to share them with others, hell, how would be get through whole courses without lots of awesome things happening. I'll talk about the Skandas in a little bit.



How do you know for sure what you have posted here in the past is also not 'diluting' this so called 'sasana'? How do you know beyond the shadow of a doubt it's just not more mental projection/proliferation? If anything is going to mess shit up, as it always does, it's going to be mental proliferation.

Nick
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Bailey , modified 9 Years ago at 8/6/13 4:11 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/6/13 4:11 PM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
By mental proliferation do you mean carelessly assigning meaning to raw sense data

Or

do you mean meditation ideas growing in number and complexity
Rod C, modified 9 Years ago at 8/7/13 2:25 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/7/13 2:25 AM

RE: This is how the Sasana dies

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Nice

Breadcrumb